patrick.net

The idea is great, the in practice it often falls apart. The simple reason is not all people are created equal. Some are better at growing crops than others, some are better building fences, or cooking meals. In theory each person can find a job that they excel at, but some people are just plain lazy. Do as little as they can get get by in school, get a diploma, minimum wage job at Walmart and live in a trailer park. These people would do at little as possible in your communist society. They would work slower, take longer breaks, get up later and stop working earlier. Eventually resentment would build up in the people doing more work. Resentment would breed conflict, conflict would eventually tear the community apart.

A classic example was China invaded Tibet, they split all property into equal parts from the people living there, so each person had the same amount of land, same number of Yaks, etc, and they were allowed to develop there economy without Chinese interference. It wasn't long before some Tibet's had more land and Yaks and people working for them. Weather it was through bad luck, bad decisions, laziness, whatever, some people lost everything and some became wealthy. This is pretty much the way of the world, competition, the strong prosper and the weak die or work for the strong.

This is why any communist society is doom to fail in the long run, people are not equal, no matter how many laws you pass to say otherwise. Some born geniuses, some have musical talent, some can run fast, some can lift a lot a weight, some can't walk and chew gum at the same time. Life sucks and isn't fair, never has been.

Nothing is wrong with Capitalism either.

The problem with both systems is Greedy Bastards and a two pot system.

For you! You're supposed to play by the rules, but for those with power and influence to make to rules as they go along. Rules are optional for them.

The same problems manifest in a capitalistic society - a select few accumulate wealth and tend to do less than those who work hard for a dramatically smaller slice of pie.

With capitalism, a small number of people accumulate wealth and then ensure that the majority have to work hard (too hard) to get anywhere - keeping society productive.

With communism, a larger number of people find they can scrape by with less effort and the same pay.

So on the one hand (capitalism) you have a more productive society overall - but one that is less fair to more people. On the other hand (communism) you have a less productive society overall that is generally more fair (I would rather get an equal share of the pie for doing a little more than my neighbor ... than a much smaller share for doing way more work than a distant neighbor who doesn't do squat but has a mansion).

At least, that is my current perspective, subject to change!

What's worse? I suspect it doesn't matter nearly so much as the structure of power itself - the way rules are formed and changed. In our society (USA), the wealthy have too much power ... the rules are slowly changing and the future looks very bleak. The constitution, praised by so many people as the bedrock of all that is good with our country, is subject to the will of the moneyed class. Money wins elections and politicians can craft news laws (and constitutional amendments) in secret, voting them into effect before the public even has a chance to respond.

We could literally wake up tomorrow to find our freedom of speech gone - with punishments enforced by police and the military. Would police officers do their legal duty, or follow what we citizens believe they are morally obligated to do? I suggest for consideration the events in countries like Egypt and Syria. If human nature is universal, a well manipulated populate is essentially helpless until the level of discontent rises so high that there is outright revolution.

On the other hand, think about how easy it would be - and how much better off we would be - for the current occupy movement to get our politicians to implement a public voting requirement for constitutional amendments and campaign finance reforms. I suspect those two acts would do more to safeguard our rights than even the current text of the constitution (which is currently subject to change by greedy politicians without input from the populace).

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

he representative democracy we have in place now?

you're kidding right? Is it a representative democracy when all members of Congress can be bought and paid for?

Regardless of what the system is, if people don't have power -- both systems are equally screwed up.

Monied, selfish interests exist in both systems who are the parasites, ending up destroying the system.

What's wrong with communism? There's no motivation! When people aspire to a life of mediocrity in a capitalist society, they get what they deserve, however, if an individual, even one born in poverty excels, they can reach for the stars. In a communist environment, those that excel do get a better job, but ultimately they live a fairly typical existence to someone in our middle class or perhaps upper middle class if they have a very important job. One can't travel out of the country, let alone easily. The worst part is in a communist society they have no need for God. I can't imagine a life without my heavenly Father or one where I woud be punished for my faith. To sum it up, when individuals have no motivation to excel and to gain rewards for their harder work, they do the absolute minimum. Competition is a beautiful thing, along with risk reward. These are things that are cherished by capitalists and those same things are looked down upon by socialists and communists alike.
True we're having problems in our system today, but if you look at the Soviet Union, it failed. If you look t socialist Europe, they are on the brink of failure. If you look at China, that's state run capitalism and they are also having their issues. The USA is still the richest and most powerful country in the history of mankind and we built this nation with ingenuity that was birthed through the capitalist system.

Zachary says

The worst part is in a communist society they have no need for God. I can't imagine a life without my heavenly Father

Excuse me, but this is a lame reason for rejecting a communist society. So what if there is no need for God? Why is faith a problem at all for existence of a society? Blind faith has caused many wars in human history.

Zachary says

USA is still the richest and most powerful country in the history of mankind

Richest - wtf? We are the largest debtor nation in the entire human existence. The one good thing is we can still print and pay down the debt in our own currency. Screw the savers!

Zachary says

we built this nation with ingenuity that was birthed through the capitalist system.

Nah, not really. It was birthed through capitalist principles (as enshrined in the Constitution), but built further through pillory, rape of poorer (but rich in natural resources) countries.

A nice balance of Socialism and Capitalism works well.

Problem with Crony Capitalism is that there are plenty of people who become very wealthy and powerful by producing nothing - Rentiers.

A great form would be "Laborism", where instead of trading capital, we trade labor hours. That way the hardest working and most productive get the most reward.

austrian man-- we all need God. We need God because God is love. Wars are started by people either because they have forgotten this, or to defend ones country and family against evil. I need God and you need God...and if you don't believe me, you will one nanosecond after you take your last breath in your body. Then you, just like Steve Jobs, will say; "oh wow, oh wow!"

You can can the last lick, because I have no time to debate with you.

Zachary says

I need God and you need God.

yeah yeah,

http://www.youtube.com/embed/6RT6rL2UroE

"I worship the Sun. I don't pray to the Sun" ~ Genius.

Zachary says

You can can the last lick, because I have no time to debate with you.

Sure, defending blind faith is hard. OTOH, relentless truth stands on its own. No need for any defense.

I pray to Joe Pesci. He strikes me as somebody who can get shit done.

The problem with communism is that "to really screw things up requires a government".

Communism, taken to its perfected extreme, would look a lot like a library.

In the midwest, libraries actually lend out cakepans.

Pretty smart idea, huh? Instead of 100,000 households buying 100,000 cakepans they only use occasionally, just establish a community pool of resources that are sufficient for all to share.

That works in theory but the problems come in how to allocate scarcity.

People who pig out in one area should not be able to pig out as much in others, so we would need to introduce ration cards.

Then comes the problem of getting people to work. If people receive ration cards for not working, then no work will get done. So perhaps we should tie the receiving of ration cards with the work you do.

Squint your eyes enough and you'll see this is the economy we have now.

I'm a great believer in the power of decentralization and profit-seeking.

But to paraphrase, "honor those who seek profits, beware those who lock them in".

The right-libertarian thesis fails due to not understanding anything about the abusive power of market monopoly, especially in land and natural resources.

The left-libertarian thesis attempts to address this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism

The Russians had a breath-taking chance ca 1990 to cleanly convert their moribund socialist economy (with little private property in natural resources) into a new georgist model.

They instead went for the crony-capitalist model, thereby screwing themselves.

The most successful economies on the planet are socialist in nature, at least in some areas.

This is a fact the righties refuse to understand. Kinda bizarre, actually, how much they lie about this.

austrian_man says

Richest - wtf? We are the largest debtor nation in the entire human existence. The one good thing is we can still print and pay down the debt in our own currency. Screw the savers!

I'm sure if you examine most countries governments balance sheets, they would be in negative territory. While it's true the government is the largest debtor nation on earth and a good number of citizen's are as well, there is still a lot of wealth in this country. It's probably too heavily concentrated to a small segment of the population, but overall the United States has more billionaires than any other country. As for wealth per person, we rank 7th worldwide. Three of the countries that have wealthier citizens are Oil rich Arab countries, once there oil runs out, so do they. No diversified industry like the United States.

Zachary says

The worst part is in a communist society they have no need for God.

I think your confusing Communism with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR), they were definitively NOT true communist society. The were communist in name not in practice. True communism does have a elite ruling class and all citizens pledge there alliance to only the State and nothing else. There no reason why "God" can't be part of a small communist community.

Then there's always that system where people always do the right thing, and care what the neighbors think. Their concern goes beyond scandal sentiment, it's more about avoiding getting your ass kicked in.

That's what all Societies could use more of these days. A good rabble of Ass Kickers doling out community justice.
I can only dream such a Mob is turning the corner now, to knock on Ben Bernake's door.

austrian_man says

Excuse me, but this is a lame reason for rejecting a communist society. So what if there is no need for God? Why is faith a problem at all for existence of a society? Blind faith has caused many wars in human history.

Agreed, the crusades killed millions in the name of "God", Every times a terrorist blows themselves up in a crowded market place they scream, "God is Great". Thousands of witches were burned at the stake in Europe in the Name of God. The whole God thing is a dangerous thing.

I will admit, I go to a Christian Church with my Wife, but it's more of a community thing for me. My wife met a lot of local people and has more friends now where she felt isolated before. It's has been beneficial for us, but I really don't believe in what they teach. To blindly follow someone without questioning them leads to Waco or a bomb strapped to your chest in a crowded marketplace.

The GOP says

That's what all Societies could use more of these days. A good rabble of Ass Kickers doling out community justice.
I can only dream such a Mob is turning the corner now...

So the next step for the Occupy protesters is the torches and pitchfork protesters?

I think the original poster should go back and ask "what IS communism"?

Do you mean as practiced by the Soviet Union?

Do you mean as envisioned by Marx?

Do you mean as practiced by various other attempts at the same sort of idea from the smallest "commune" to other hybrids?

Most people can't get past "well I meant Soviet Communism, which obviously failed DUH therefore anything I think is communism is bad".

If there's a socio-economic experiment that has survived 100% intact as founded with no tweaks and "proved" it's superiority I don't know what it is.

By the standards of some friends of mine, the USA has not been a capitalist country since well it depends. For some it was the Civil War, for others the New Deal, and for them it's already a "failed experiment" and we are living in communism now.

Personally I've never read any Marx, it's on my short list after someone pointed out this deficiency.

I love all this talk about how MOTIVATION is enhanced under this or that system. It always sounds great when you are BS'ing around a campfire. Then you get some dude who says "yeah let's institute COPYRIGHT or PATENTS those will spur innovation!" and it all sounds good and works fine in the first few years, until next thing you know you've got a "Senator Disney" whose job is making sure The Mouse has eternal protection. Exactly what "motivation" does copyright give to an author who has been dead for decades to produce new work?

Yeah so to me a lot of capitalism is also theoretical BS about how it ought to be working, which isn't how things really work. Let me give you a simple example TIPPING. That should be a clear and simple example of the smell of money inevitably leads to great service right? BZZZT! I've had great service in countries where tipping is not customary. I've had lots of really crappy service in America, and shoudn't tipping have long ago weeded out bad service here and left only the well-rewarded perfect waitrons?

Frankly a lot of political and economic junk we've been indoctrinated with, doesn't survive 5 seconds of scrutiny.

Zachary says

The worst part is in a communist society they have no need for God. I can't imagine a life without my heavenly Father or one where I woud be punished for my faith.

Religion and faith are and always should be a personal issue, not a social or political one - otherwise there would be way too much room for abuse (such as in a theocracy), thus WE attempt to have the separation of church and state. That being said however, communism and religion (the need for a belief in some superstitious being, or god) are not necessarily mutually exclusive ideas as "Liberation Theology" clearly demonstrates - it is a Marxist interpretation of Christianity. So the idea that all forms of communism are godless or the idea that capitalism is endorsed by some religious faith or another, is simply not true - those are mish-mash ideological positions. These are all competing ideologies - some of them address the human condition from an economic standpoint, where others focus primarily on metaphysical issues such as faith, etc. - and the varying forms of these ideologies can be mixed and matched with vaious combinations and permutaions, none of them are static or fixed....

fewer choices

Vicente says

Yeah so to me a lot of capitalism is also theoretical BS about how it ought to be working, which isn't how things really work. Let me give you a simple example TIPPING. That should be a clear and simple example of the smell of money inevitably leads to great service right? BZZZT! I've had great service in countries where tipping is not customary. I've had lots of really crappy service in America, and shoudn't tipping have long ago weeded out bad service here and left only the well-rewarded perfect waitrons?

Frankly a lot of political and economic junk we've been indoctrinated with, doesn't survive 5 seconds of scrutiny.

That just about says it.

Some people do a damn good job not because of money, but because they enjoy the task, they're good at the task, enjoy helping people, like approval, or trying to please a substitute parent figure in hopes of praise, etc. etc. etc.

If you pay a dishwasher $20/hour it doesn't usually get things cleaner, faster.

Sadly he probably wont continue reading this but ...
Zachary, no offense intended here - I think you do not know what communism is.
You cannot take a country that purports to be communist and use their problems as blanket reflections of communism. Note that I am not an advocate for communist - just an advocate for informed, honest dialog.

Let me put it this way - they have elections in Iran. Is Iran our example for democracy? Please, no!

Soviet Union - Not communist. That was just the bedrock ... of their rationalization for the government policies. Just like democracy is used in Iran to legitimize leaders who really don't have the support of the people.

This is important because you have made a few inferences about communism, based upon your flawed examples, that have no bearing on the discussion. Trust me here, no one is arguing about 'what is wrong with the soviet union' - that's another topic entirely.

For instance - nowhere does it say that communists can't leave the country. Nor does communism preclude religion. So scratch those two points - though again I agree with your generally negative view of communism as a whole.

Additionally, you argue that 'socialist europe' is on the brink of failure, but fail to note that our own capitalist society is also on the brink. Our debt is monumental and could very well bring us to our knees (let's hope - or pray if you want - that it does not). Our wealth inequality far outshadows the level-of-effort inequality - the richest in our nation, for the most part, are NOT people who got where they are from hard work ... so while it is true that the laziest usually fail, the hardest working merely thrive - but do not reach the top. Instead, we have a class of very lazy leaches who occupy the top tier of our society.

Additionally, our wealth inequality has allowed the fundamental precept of equality in our society to be undermined. No one believes anymore than everyone has an equal say. Your opinions, or mine, have little effect on the world. Rupert Murdochs opinions can literally dictate politics to a large degree.

These points about our country do *not* reflect directly on the idea of capitalism, by the way - we could easily fix these things, with the political will. Sadly it's too easy for people with good ideas to post on the internet, then go to work for the remainder of the day, when perhaps we should post on the internet and join a strike or start a peaceful revolution.

funny ... this arguement is taking place on a form of media, using a huge series of infrastructures, with folks exersizing complete personal freedom .... how many of those things exist under communism?
Inventions and the systems they create, like electricity, PC's, Operating systems, cell systems, cable systems, are all born in freedom ... and a desire to earn money with them (capitalism) .... and your ability to sit there and express your thoughts, at your desired time, in your desired way .... these are all non-communist things.
In my most humbel opinion, communisim is a GREAT idea for anyone who has never had an original thought, has no personality, and has never been the winner at anything. It's the losers' choice. Hey ,,... that should be the progressive/liberal/leftis/communist slogan while trying to give us more Lord Barry .... "Obama, the loser's choice!"

All humans do not work the same, learn the same, look the same, function the same, are not born in the same place, are not born at the same time, are born to good parents .... no two humans have the same life experience. So, trying to have all humans have matching outcomes in life is stupid. Especially when the function used to create an even outcome is a forced wealth redistribution enacted by a select group of elite humans.

Reverencing the uncommon "elite", to then allow them to create common "equality" for all of the non-elite, is complete silliness.

It ain't the concept of Capitalism or Communism, it's how it gets implemented. We humans tend to fuck things up, give someone too much power not realizing the consequences, make irrational decisions, and get overly greedy trying to screw each other for profit.

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

In short some form of "moral communism" can work on small scales - but it breaks down when applied to larger society

Basically.

Economic systems are like underwear. You change them when you need to.

Communism, when implemented correctly as opposed to the tyrannical Soviet implementation, is a perfectly fine economic model for some situations. I can think of two perfect examples off the top of my head.

First, if I were to implement an economic model for a self-sufficient, autonomous, deep-space research facility, I'd go with communism. The facility has to balance resource acquisition in the form of asteroid mining, energy management, repair and maintenance, and consumption in the form of running various physical, chemical, and biological experiments on behalf of the humans back on Earth.

This is a sufficiently complex economy, and it would be best managed by communism. A central program would run all aspects of the facilities economy taking into account the importance and urgency of various experiments as communicated by the far distant humans as well as all the other needs of the facility.

This form of communism could scale indefinitely since no humans are involved in the economy other than stating preferences for experiments. Remove the humans from an economy, and communism can scale indefinitely.

The second example I can think of for communism is a stage 4 zombie outbreak where the undead roam freely and the living struggle to survive in small groups.

In this scenario, obviously Communism is the economic model you want your small group of 5-20 survivors to follow. Democratic Communism is preferred if your group is composed of intelligent, rational people. But if they're all Americans, you're probably out of luck.

As your base grows to over a hundred people, Communism becomes less effective for two reasons. First, centralized control becomes less efficient and responsive. Second, people experience fewer long-term interactions with everyone else and more short-term interactions. This causes people to behave more selfishly, and therefore not work well under Communism. So as your base grows, you need to transition to other economic models. Hopefully by then, your defenses are sufficient to hold off a large horde of the undead.

Zachary says

The worst part is in a communist society they have no need for God

You do realize that Jesus was a communist? The whole of Christianity is based on the premise that we should all act like a communist. You're suppose to use the gifts that god gave you to the best of your ability and then share the fruits of those labors with the least of your neighbors for "that which you do unto the least of your people, you do unto me (Jesus)". The entire point of Christianity was to answer the question, "Am I my brother's keeper?" with a resounding "Yes!".

Zachary says

we all need God. We need God because God is love.

I think you're confusing god with dog.

dog = love
god = evol

I'll take a dog over a god any day.

TechGromit says

Zachary says

The worst part is in a communist society they have no need for God.

I think your confusing Communism with the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR), they were definitively NOT true communist society.

So true, and many people make this mistake. All one has to do is look to Cuba as a counterexample. Cuba is communistic and religious. Not that I advocate either, but they certainly are not mutually exclusive.

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says

Communist governments end up machine gunning most of the population to death, at least those who have been able to find enough food to revolt.

And if only this wasn't also true for Capitalistic governments. Fascism is the capitalistic equivalent of Communistic tyranny. In practice, there is little different to these supposed polar opposites.

austrian_man says

"I worship the Sun. I don't pray to the Sun"

George Carlin was a genius.

Dan8267 says

eorge Carlin was a genius.

Indeed, a very interesting one at that.

One of my favorite videos of Carlin is his interview and thoughts on drugs:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/oj5Sd3BRm_I

My favorite quote is:

"It is important in life that you don't give a shit. It can help you a lot".

Dan8267 says

You do realize that Jesus was a communist?

AND he became a zombie. Your 2 posts dovetail nicely.

What if zombies will actually be dead risen to bring us love and salvation? Everyone assumes they are always going to start munching brains.

Dan8267 says

Democratic Communism is preferred if your group is composed of intelligent, rational people. But if they're all Americans, you're probably out of luck.

As your base grows to over a hundred people, Communism becomes less effective for two reasons. First, centralized control becomes less efficient and responsive. Second, people experience fewer long-term interactions with everyone else and more short-term interactions. This causes people to behave more selfishly, and therefore not work well under Communism.

Political systems grow, ossify and die. So I don't see that Communism is unique here. There have been dynasty chains that stretched far longer than our Western fads. Several thousand years from now some Chinese historian may be writing a chapter about all the short-lived "Republic" experiments which "obviously" were inferior, because hey look they all fell eventually and were replaced by something else.

austrian_man says

One of my favorite videos of Carlin is his interview and thoughts on drugs:

Holy crap, Jon Stewart looks young in that clip. George Carlin looks like he didn't age for the last 20 years of his life.

For some reason, the video embedding isn't working for me anymore. If I type in the following, the site just strips away that text:

<iframe src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/6RT6rL2UroE" frameborder="0" height="375" width="500"></iframe>

Even if I just quote someone who's added that text.

austrian_man says

One of my favorite videos of Carlin is his interview and thoughts on drugs:

Thanks for this!

Jesus is the God of the Communists, Capitalists, Socialists, Atheists, etc. Even George Carlin today now believes in the Son of God who is the only person to rise from the dead.

By many of your comments and attacks regarding my faith, it only reinforces why communism is anti-God. Look in the mirror!

Jesus Christ died for your sins, he suffered a horrible death for YOUR sins. He stands ready to forgive you and provide a way of escape. Think wisely before you mock me, because by your written words you will be judged on judgment day...of course, he will still forgive you on your death bed if you;re fortunate enough to come to your senses.

God bless you and have mercy on you.

Z

Zachary says

Even George Carlin today now believes in the Son of God who is the only person to rise from the dead.

did you even see the video, 'religion is bullshit'? He says there is no God, none whatsoever, has never been.

Zachary says

Jesus is the God of the Communists, Capitalists, Socialists, Atheists, etc.

wow, what an arrogant myopic view of the world! You know there are large sections of the world where Jesus is NOT GOD right? In Hinduism, there are 1000s of Gods, not one. Apart from this, there are Buddhists, Jainists etc. Quite arrogant to ignore large sections of populace who don't believe/care about Jesus.

Zachary says

By many of your comments and attacks regarding my faith

we're not attacking your faith per se, what is there to attack on blind faith? we're presenting facts, plain and simple. whether you face to see the facts or not is up to you.

As for the rest of your rant on sins and forgiving, cool - we can wait for judgment day. Until then I'll be watching funny videos like this:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/eSQczYEeB2w

COMMUNISM; Where a wall is built to keep people in ?

POLITICS & RELIGION; Which one requires faith ?

Zachary says

George Carlin today now believes in the Son of God who is the only person to rise from the dead.

Technically this isn't true. Bringing people back for the dead (ie no heartbeat) is almost a daily occurrence in a hospitals and by an EMT teams somewhere on the world. People have "died" and been brought back from the dead. You know all those white light stories.

Zachary says

George Carlin today now believes in the Son of God who is the only person to rise from the dead.

Technically this isn't true. Bringing people back for the dead (ie no heartbeat) is almost a daily occurrence in a hospitals and by an EMT teams somewhere on the world. People have "died" and been brought back from the dead. You know all those white light stories.

Zachary says

Jesus Christ died for your sins,... blah blah blah

The whole problem with this is there no evidence he ever existed, period. The Romans kept very accurate records and no where in the archives is there any mention of of such a person ever existing. While there was hardly documentation for every person who existed, important events were recorded, kings, princes, wars, people getting people to follow them where they would cause potential problems for the government, etc.

The entire issue here is you believe every word in a book as undisputed Fact. Even when there is hard scientific evidence to say otherwise. The bible says something like the earth is 6,000 years old, which has been clearly proven false. If the bible stated facts that they couldn't possibly know at that time, it would give it a lot more credibility.

For example if the bible said in the beginning God created the earth and populated it with huge monsters (dinosaurs) but they were deemed unworthy so god hurdled a rock from the heavens to destroy them and started again with Man. That would make me a believer, but blindly believing in a book written thousands of years ago will not. Don't get me wrong, the bible has value, there are morals set down in the bible that have been beneficial to humankind, but I will never accept everything written in it as undisputed facts.

Zachary says

Jesus Christ died for your sins, he suffered a horrible death for YOUR sins.

Pictures or it didn't happen.