patrick.net

notice how as soon as he gave that answer his handlers started rushing him off the stage.

I appreciate and acknowledge the many ideas of Libertarians. However, there are stunning holes in their philosophy, as discussed here previously. Well, here's another one.

Libertarians believe that everyone is rational at all times on all subject matters. Such a person is called Homo-economicus. As such, everyone will always choose what's best for themselves, their planet, and other people. Companies would then compete to be the greenest in order to attract customers.

In reality, companies simply want deregulation so they can abuse people and their environment. And the average Joe is oblivious up until the time a given subject blows up and becomes a big issue.

Yeah homo economicus, right up there with the unicorn, big foot, and the chupacabra. :)

Jason M. says

You make the grand assumption that a Fabian socialist government that's run by unelected central bankers behind the scenes will somehow clean up the environment and be devoid of corruption

Libertarians have always had a good point about the pitfalls of a large government. At some point, they become corrupt and untrustworthy. So how would you solve environment or sweatshop issues? I suppose you think large companies will do the cleaning up? Or perhaps we should just ignore any and all concerns until it grows big and blow up.

Let's just say we eliminate the FDIC, in accordance with Libertarian rhetoric. Do you think your money will still be safe in banks? Libertarians think so. Let's just say we remove smog checks. What do you think will happen 10 years from now. Libertarians say we'll have cleaner air and less smog. But I think reality will be the opposite.

Jason M. says

Considering the last 300 years of human suffering and war funded and pushed by central bankers, I don't feel you have a leg to stand on.

What are you smoking? The central bank (Federal Reserve) was created in 1913, yet somehow they managed to create wars 200 years before they existed?

Also, the Civil War was all about the South fighting for their rights to own slaves. Tell me, is there is anything Libertarian about creating laws banning slavery?

Jason M. says

Libertarian ideals created the United States, if you don't recall.

There's a big difference between Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness vs the Libertarian Philosophy from the Austrian school.

Jason M. says

This was once the best country in the world, prior to it being corrupted by Fabian socialists who worked feverishly to dismantle the Constitution.

I recommend you watch The Inside Job. We started all this deregulation three decades ago, and now here we are.

Well it isn't any of our business what other countries do internally. You wouldn't want China coming here telling us to setup communism or Iranian president telling us to setup Sharia Law?

They mind their business, we mind ours.

FortWayne says

Well it isn't any of our business what other countries do internally

Really? What if they commit mass genocide? Or deny basic human rights to their citizens?

It's none of our business?

In Libertarian ideology, at all times Big Crony Capitalism is to be worshipped. Ron Paul is no different than any other GOPer for this.

If you want to organize a labor union you are the enemy, and must be hindered at every turn. If you want to have tariffs and such you are "protectionist" and must be against the Obvious Good of Global Corporations.

If you want to organize a Corporate PAC and buy elections, here's our private numbers....

GameOver says

Following your line of reasoning, the United States of America should be EMBARGOED by the International Community, its leaders ARRESTED and its economy put under RECEIVERSHIP for all the extensive war crimes, mega-financial crimes, wars of aggression, and crimes against humanity that it has commited against OTHERS.

I'm sorry--did I propose a line of reasoning in that post? I thought I just asked a question.

Jason M. says

Monopolistic collusion may only occur where the free market is not allowed to offer profitable alternatives, which Libertarianism seeks to prevent.

Monopolistic collusion is the natural tendency of capitalism.

Where Libertarians go wrong is they give lip service to:
"The only proper role of government in the economic realm is to protect property rights, adjudicate disputes, and provide a legal framework in which voluntary trade is protected."

The constant repetition of Grover Norquist-style "government so small you can strangle it in the bathtub" shows the lie. They don't really believe in any role for government, they just don't want to own up to that publicly. I was an active Libertarian for decades starting with Nancy Lord's campaign and that's exactly how I and many others rationalized our dogmatic belief that if we just set the businessmen free money would rain from the skies.

Jason M. says

The first central bank was created by the Rothschild family in London 300 years ago. They've been lending money, at interest, to both sides of every major war ever since.

Ah yes the Rothchild's and their ilk the cause of all wars and assorted evils of the world for the past 300 years. That was a winning platform position at one time, in a certain European country. I believe it in was the 1930's, not sure it works well in the USA today but who knows

Ron Paul is fairly naive to think that the world will behave nicely and in our favor as long as we just leave them alone.

He keeps counting on ending the FED (even though every other developed nation has a central bank) So we get rid of FED and expect everyone else to behave nicely?

It would be sort of like getting rid of our nukes and hope (pray) that everyone else will follow the noble example we have set. Naive to say the least.

GameOver says

Thus, your 'question' shows you SUPPORT meddling in other nation's internal affairs.

No, it doesn't. It asked if FortWayne really advocated complete isolationism.

You read into it what you wanted to and then took it much further by somehow equating financial crimes to genocide...

toothfairy says

He keeps counting on ending the FED (even though every other developed nation has a central bank) So we get rid of FED and expect everyone else to behave nicely?

I'm not a goldbug but if we had our house in order we wouldn't have to care what the rest of the world was or was not doing.

I am not an isolationist but I also think we're spending too much on military capability.

We're being drowned in bullshit. Paul isn't some prophet sent to take us out of the bullshit, half his stuff is just more of the same.

Jason M. says

rdm says

Jason M. says

The first central bank was created by the Rothschild family in London 300 years ago. They've been lending money, at interest, to both sides of every major war ever since.

Ah yes the Rothchild's and their ilk the cause of all wars and assorted evils of the world for the past 300 years. That was a winning platform position at one time, in a certain European country. I believe it in was the 1930's, not sure it works well in the USA today but who knows

It's still applicable to what is happening today. There are several books written on this topic, some of them by whistleblowers. Many of them are recent.

Whether or not it "works well" is completely dependent on an educated populace. I would agree that this information may be meaningless to some extent, given the education level of the average American today

Yes, average Americans as well as a certain participant(s) on Patrick .net. Education is an interesting thing some people have a capacity for critical thinking others not so much. Some believe what they read in books and on the internet because, or if it affirms their beliefs. Most people want answers of a yes or no, right or wrong quality they dont like being put into question. Often subtlety or nuance is lost or not understood. It is the Manichean way to look at the world.

Ron Paul on 3rd world sweat shop labor "it's none of our business"

The funny thing is is that with an "honest" monetary regime we'd not have gotten in half the hole we're in now.

It's not the offshoring that's killing us, it's the trade deficits, and trade deficits are easier to create and sustain against us with a devalued currency.

The trade deficit is also being maintained by recirculating the accumulated surplus back to us in the form of credit, e.g.:

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt

The Libertarian Right has no answer for this, since they don't understand economics all that well.

I agree with the statement that it's none of our business, but only if that's coupled with us not having free trade with such a country.

We should not make allies of nations that do not share our ideals. Anything else is hypocrisy.

GameOver says

I agree! But tatupu seems to support the argument that we SHOULD intervene in another nation's internal affairs regardless as to whether friend or foe

Again--I have not stated my opinoin at all. Other than the fact that I think stating absolutes like FortWayne did is seldom correct.

For the record, I probably lie much closer to the isolation end of the spectrum. The interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan were a waste.

But I don't think I would ever say that other countries can do whatever they want to their own citizens.

Well define sweat shop. It is easy for anything to look cheaper than the USA due to the fact that we've inflated the value of nearly everything in the country. Cars didn't always cost 25K to start, houses didn't always cost hundreds of thousands of dollars etc.

If you look at labor costs, housing cost, material costs you have to look at the whole picture. I know some in china making $1.25 an hour. Of course that sounds rock bottom. But a platter of food costs $1, a bottle of brandy $4, electronics are around the same but the software is pirated..then again a $100 version of windows won't sell in these situations.

A long time ago I had a coworker that married his wife from the Philippines. He told me at the time when he went there he took ten members of his wifes family out to eat with him and her at a cost of $9 for dinner. I didn't believe it. About a decade later I went to china only to find the prices are about that.

Labor is going to be cheaper when everything else is cheaper.

You also have to keep in mind that working in a factory for that $1.25 is more than those doing field work outside with no running water, air conditioning etc. There are strikes in Asia every now and then and most people want to work for foreign firms since they are more likely to have better treatment and amenities. With this in mind businesses compete to give better treatment because if a place treats people bad they'll go somewhere else. Are there unions? I wouldn't exactly say so but it might get to that point.

I've toured factories in asia. They varied quite a bit but for the most part conditions weren't bad.

It can be argued that the currency is devauled but if we are trading the pricing for manufacturing with the price of energy then not everyone will be happy with that.

It's not just wages.

A short list of inequality between nations that should block free trade:

- Wildly different workplace safety laws
- Wildly different environmental protection laws
- Wildly different labor rights
- Wildly different levels of government interference with / ownership of major industries

Kevin says

A short list of inequality between nations that should block free trade:

And oddly enough, they are very happy to have American jobs, else what is left for them to do ?

http://patrick.net/?p=1207031

Check out how the Chinese family is doing... Daughter is actually making far more than her parents ever thought was possible.

Jason M. says

There are 150+ privately owned central banks worldwide. The BIS (Bank of International Settlements) coordinates the activities of 57 of the most prominent central banks.

Central banks are enablers of wars, and they prolong wars via financing. That's a good point. However, there were wars before central banks were created. I guarantee you there will be wars after central banks were eliminated.

Jason M. says

At the same time, I recommend you read Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals."

Just bought it on my Kindle. Will read when I get the chance.

Jason M. says

Given a republic with an objective, free journalistic press, you will have an educated public. The public will then be aware of what threats are real, and which are not. This then results in free market capitalism going to work.

Earlier, I was talking about the fallacy of Homo Economicus. In reality, some people care, but most just don't give a damn.

The more interesting question more relevant questions is: does Ron Paul care or think it is the business of the Federal Government if we have sweat shop labor in THIS (USA) country?

Bellingham Bill says

It's not the offshoring that's killing us, it's the trade deficits, and trade deficits are easier to create and sustain against us with a devalued currency.

I agree with you Bellingham Bill. Here is a quote from Milton Friedman:

High exports raise the value of the currency, reducing aforementioned exports

I am appalled that top Economists still keep emphasizing that trade deficits are self-correcting. With currency pegs, the underlying assumption had been thrown out the window a long time ago. Well, I tell you, the markets have been meddled with for far too long. The markets will forcefully self-correct, and we're in for a big shock.

thomas.wong1986 says

Kevin says

A short list of inequality between nations that should block free trade:

And oddly enough, they are very happy to have American jobs, else what is left for them to do ?

http://patrick.net/?p=1207031

Check out how the Chinese family is doing... Daughter is actually making far more than her parents ever thought was possible.

There is no such thing as "American Jobs". There are demands for goods and services and suppliers of said goods and services.

If the U.S. wants more jobs, it has two choices:

- Lower environmental, workplace safety, and labor rights regulation
- Get the government involved in ownership and competition, booting foreign companies that don't give their trade secrets and other IP to domestic "partners", picking winners, and directly competing with private enterprise

OR

- Stop doing business with China.

Kevin says

If the U.S. wants more jobs, it has two choices:

Or a third choice. End the sham of "free trade" and put back up the same trade barriers and tariffs we took down, which of course nobody else removed in any meaningful way.