patrick.net

marcus says

Yes, and he's also taken a serious look at the positive side of religion and spirituality in general.

Marcus, if you want to make a point that religion does good, go right ahead. I reserve the right to point out that good people would do good things regardless of whether or not religion exist, but that religion often causes good people to do bad things.

Christianity certainly didn't invent compassion. Evolution did. I have yet to see compelling evidence that religion has done more good than evil in history or even that religion has significantly increased the amount of compassion in our world. There certainly is plenty of evidence to the contrary.

The best argument I've heard in favor of religion is that it can be used to trick the stupid into doing the right thing. That's a weak argument at best and certainly doesn't justify the extreme costs imposed on our society by religion.

However, if you want to make the case, go right ahead.

Dan8267 says

I have given ample evidence across multiple threads of the severe death, destruction, and injustices caused by religions across the millennia.

Replace the word 'religions' with 'governments' and you will have a statement that is more true. And yet I don't know that this constitutes an argument that governments are inherently evil, or that we need to do away with them.

Like religions, governments are a reflection of us.

Maybe the real answer is for us to evolve in to machines and do away with man?

http://www.youtube.com/embed/BlpyGhABXRA

Dan8267 says

Christianity certainly didn't invent compassion

In the past, I believe you generalized your thesis beyond just organized religion to any and all types of 'spirituality.'

IT's not clear to me what part is learned versus what might be physiological or perhaps even related to something that some refer to as "a soul," but it seems to me that many people interface with the world through what could be called a spiritual lens.

Who knows, maybe it's just ego. Maybe by feeling that connection (make believe - or not) they are able to feel a sense of enhanced self esteem or empowerment.

It's not so unlike the extremist atheists (not the ones who simply don't believe - but have a live and let live attitude), who seem to get an ego boost by putting down the religious majority as being so sadly mistaken with their pathetic beliefs.

marcus says

Replace the word 'religions' with 'governments' and you will have a statement that is more true.

One true statement isn't "more true" than another. As for which has caused more deaths, religion or government, it's hard to say when the two are so intertwined.

marcus says

And yet I don't know that this constitutes an argument that governments are inherently evil, or that we need to do away with them.

The correct answer is to limit the power of government and to distribute power so evenly and thinly throughout society that no one person can do great harm to another legally.

marcus says

Like religions, governments are a reflection of us.

I disagree on both accounts. Religions are passed down to the next generation through brain washing. Governments are often forced on people who have no control or say in the matter. Even in the United States, how much say do you really have in what your government does? Image how much worse it is in Syria. Religion and governments are reflections of the people in power, but not necessarily a reflection of the powerless people in a society.

marcus says

Maybe the real answer is for us to evolve in to machines and do away with man?

Now why would I want to trade a rotting meat body for a nice shinny metal one? Being human is great. Eating, shitting, dying, what's not to love? It's not like the things robots can do -- fly through space without a space suit, shoot lasers, connect to the Internet at will, bench press 100 tons, transform into supersonic aircraft -- are really all that fun. Don't worry. When the machines rise, I'll be on the side of humanity.

marcus says

but it seems to me that many people interface with the world through what could be called a spiritual lens.

Beer goggles are more accurate imaging devices.

marcus says

Maybe by feeling that connection (make believe - or not) they are able to feel a sense of enhanced self esteem or empowerment.

A false sense of empowerment is not good. If you have cancer, you can't pray it away. Best to go see a real doctor.

Now real empowerment is a good thing, but that comes from understanding your world so that you can affect it. Sp ritual beliefs do not enhance understanding, they detract from it.

marcus says

It's not so unlike the extremist atheists (not the ones who simply don't believe - but have a live and let live attitude), who seem to get an ego boost by putting down the religious majority as being so sadly mistaken with their pathetic beliefs.

Trust me. I don't get an ego boost from pointing out the follies and dangers of religion or disproving the existence of a god or showing how the religious myths are copies of older pagan myths. I do it because it is important to stop the irrationality that allows assholes like Rick Perry and Rick Santorum from getting elected and passing evil agendas that compromise life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

If we extreme atheists manage to get the masses to abandon all superstitious beliefs, then we succeed in taking away one tool from the toolbox used by evil. Yes, it's only one tool, but it's a damn important and often used tool. Eliminating that tool would greatly improve the condition of the world.

marcus says

It's not so unlike the extremist atheists (not the ones who simply don't believe - but have a live and let live attitude), who seem to get an ego boost by putting down the religious majority as being so sadly mistaken with their pathetic beliefs.

I am not an atheist. What I am really not is pliable. Not susceptible to any bullshit artist that shows up in my life. Throwing fear into me. By telling me there is someplace. That I am going to burn in forever. If I'm not a good boy. Turn into a child or pumpkin or whatever the fuck keeps me out of hell. There are individual bullshit artists. Then youv'e got your organized bullshitters.

Deal is youv'e got one fucking life. That's it. The rules are set up as something that keeps you in line. I don't need to be kept in line. As a grown adult you should recognize that. Rules are for kids under 12 and under. Societies do not keep things in line. The earth does. God dosen't he could give damn.

So to many its society that keeps everything in order. Society can't find it's ass with both hands. So that obviously isn't the way it is. The other way you can go is that some space wookie is controlling all of life, intervening in life. Or not intervening letting you get hit by a car because it makes for a really interesting sometimes, funny mystery. Believe either. Especially society keeps things in line. Your leaving the door wide, open for a lot of victims. If you BELIEVE, society keeps things in line or God does your screwed in life. Your always going to be someones peon. Which leads to being other peoples peon. Or your going to be some invented outerspace Gods obeident monkey. Which means they don't have to worry about you any more because your way fucking out there.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/jaxtBqw_TkE

Dan8267 says

I don't get an ego boost from pointing out the follies and dangers of religion or disproving the existence of a god or showing how the religious myths are copies of older pagan myths. I do it because it is important to stop the irrationality that allows assholes like Rick Perry and Rick Santorum

Maybe we should just kill all of the religious. You would take out the Rick Perry and Santorum types,...I guess the millions of religious people with more character, intelligence, integrity and wisdom than you would just be collateral damage.

marcus says

Dan8267 says

I don't get an ego boost from pointing out the follies and dangers of religion or disproving the existence of a god or showing how the religious myths are copies of older pagan myths. I do it because it is important to stop the irrationality that allows assholes like Rick Perry and Rick Santorum

Maybe we should just kill all of the religious. You would take out the Rick Perry and Santorum types,...I guess the millions of religious people with more character, intelligence, integrity and wisdom than you would just be collateral damage.

Only a religious person would think that the solution to irrational religion is to kill the people who are religious.

marcus says

Maybe we should just kill all of the religious. You would take out the Rick Perry and Santorum types,...I guess the millions of religious people with more character, intelligence, integrity and wisdom than you would just be collateral damage.

Great Straw Man argument, Hitler. Please expand on it.

Ironically, I'm watching The Third Reich: The Fall on the History Channel as I write this. Marcus sounds just like one of the Nazis.

Dan8267 says

Yep, there are lots of violations of the First Amendment of the Federal Constitution. None of them are good.

Dan,

Please reread your constitution.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

1) congress (nor any other governmental body) made a law forcing the school to display the banner.

2) forcing the school to either remove or revise the banner violates their right to "freely exercise" their beliefs that students should be held to a certain standard of conduct – and ask for the help of divine providence in keeping with a particular moral tradition.

**************

An atheist by definition has no religion. Belief in God (however one defines the term) is a precursor to being religious. So the argument that because someone does not believe in a heavenly father equates to a violation of their 2nd amendment rights. I just don’t see how one makes that leap of logic.

Furthermore, belief in God has always been a part of our national heritage, from the Pilgrims, through many of the founding fathers, straight on through to today.

Even the declaration of independence draws on the belief God.

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

Do I agree with the death threats? No.
Did her local repetitive cross a line with what he said? Probably

But on the whole, I think that people who wage this battle in the belief that somehow acknowledging a creator / saying "Amen" in public / professing a belief in God / paying tribute to our religious heritage in a public fashion somehow equates to a egregious violation of the 2nd amendment – I just don’t think they understand the reality that, like it or not we are, and always have been a nation with religious underpinnings and specifically, Judeo-Christian values and mindset.

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

An atheist by definition has no religion

So Buddhists aren't protected by the First Amendment and the cops can prevent Buddhists from practicing Buddhism? Thank whatever fictitious god you believe in that you're not on the Supreme Court.

Freedom of religion means freedom from religion. If you can't say no, you're not free. Atheism is most certainly protected by the First Amendment. And if our rights to not have religion forced down our throats isn't respected, then we won't respect your right to worship.

Tolerance is a two-way street and if atheists are protected on the same level as Christians, then I say let's burn every Bible in the country. I'd go to war over this issue since I've seen what Christians do to outsiders when they get control of the government. Remember Germany, 1930s?

By EastCoastBubbleBoy says

Belief in God (however one defines the term) is a precursor to being religious.

Then I define "God" as a puppy dog.

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

Even the declaration of independence draws on the belief God.

And that makes it right why? The first draft of the Declaration of Independence cited slavery as one of the grievances against King George. It was removed to appease the southern states. I can accept the principles of liberty without accepting religion, the enemy of liberty.

In every society, the priest is the enemy of liberty.

- Thomas Jefferson, the guy who wrote the Declaration of Independence

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

Furthermore, belief in God has always been a part of our national heritage, from the Pilgrims, through many of the founding fathers,

Sort of like slavery? Some things should change.

The founding fathers wouldn't approve of interracial marriage either, but they did have sex with underage girls as young as 12 including their slaves.

One can believe in the philosophy of liberty without turning the founding fathers into demi-gods.

EastCoastBubbleBoy says

o the argument that because someone does not believe in a heavenly father equates to a violation of their 2nd amendment rights. I just don’t see how one makes that leap of logic.

Neither do I. The 2nd Amendment deals with the right to bear arms.

Got me there. Darn autocorrect. I meant 1st.
Anyhow. we argree to disagree. So be it.

Dan8267 says

Great Straw Man argument, Hitler. Please expand on it.

I'm impressed that you didn't argue my point that there are millions of religious people with more intelligence and integrity than you.

Maybe you aren't as imbalanced as I thought after all.

Honestly, I wouldn't give a shit what silly things people want to make murals out of as long as they'd stop trying to teach my kids that there's some kind of 'controversy' about how life came to be.

Kevin says

marcus says

Dan8267 says

I don't get an ego boost from pointing out the follies and dangers of religion or disproving the existence of a god or showing how the religious myths are copies of older pagan myths. I do it because it is important to stop the irrationality that allows assholes like Rick Perry and Rick Santorum

Maybe we should just kill all of the religious. You would take out the Rick Perry and Santorum types,...I guess the millions of religious people with more character, intelligence, integrity and wisdom than you would just be collateral damage.

Only a religious person would think that the solution to irrational religion is to kill the people who are religious.

Dan is what I consider very religious in his zeal for atheism, and in his belief (he would say proof, haha), that we would be better off with zero religion and with nobody having any of what is often referred to as spirituality.

How does a person get to where they have an ego such that they would say that if mankind is really going to benefit and move forward, they should have his beliefs? I have only met a couple of Christians in my life that are THAT RELIGIOUS.

But I assumed it was obvious that I was being facetious, with the comment about killing the religious. And one would have to have seen the history of my religious arguments with Dan to get my point.

Actually I don't think that Dan would even be close to advocating such a thing, so it isn't really a straw man.

But in my opinion (or by my definition) Dan is as religious, in the negative sense of the word, as a person can be.

What is religious tolerance anyway? Is it enough just to say that you don't advocate killing everyone in a certain group?

If someone makes an argument (that they call a proof) that religion of any kind is evil, is that tolerance ?

I thought tolerance (in the social context) means more of a "live and let live," I'm not going to judge you based on your race, or your sexual orientation or your religious beliefs etc.

marcus says

Dan is what I consider very religious in his zeal for atheism,

1. There is nothing wrong with "zeal" for atheism any more than there is anything wrong with "zeal" for mathematics, history, or Opera.

2. Unlike religion, atheism hasn't been used as the justification for enslavement, rape, and murder of outsiders or for genocide.

3. There are plenty of damn good reasons to abandon religious beliefs.

marcus says

How does a person get to where they have an ego such that they would say that if mankind is really going to benefit and move forward, they should have his beliefs?

I believe the world is round. If you disagree with this belief, you are wrong. My beliefs are faith, they are knowledge. So this isn't about ego, except for you.

I believe that the enormous amount of pollution that we are putting in the atmosphere is causing climate change that may have many dire consequences. If you disagree with this belief, you are wrong and you are endangering our species survival. The real world impact of climate change can result in the whole of Britain being underwater and the British using their nuclear arsenal to secure other lands. That's damn serious shit.

Yet, it's one of my "beliefs". Marcus, you need to stop using the word belief because you are confusing "faith-based doctrine" with "verifiable knowledge". The two things are completely different.

When I say that religion has caused countless atrocities throughout history, this "belief" is readily verifiable.

marcus says

Actually I don't think that Dan would even be close to advocating such a thing, so it isn't really a straw man.

Um, actually it still is a Straw Man argument. Only it's a disingenuous one, which most Straw Man arguments are.

marcus says

But in my opinion (or by my definition) Dan is as religious, in the negative sense of the word, as a person can be.

And your welcome to that opinion. In my opinion, you are simply jealous of my intellect and your fragile ego cause you to be obsessed with fighting everything I say even when you know it's right. Instead of learning from me, which a more mature person would do, you throw little tantrums.

And the one time, I gave yo the benefit of a doubt, you immediately revert back to a child.

marcus says

I thought tolerance (in the social context) means more of a "live and let live," I'm not going to judge you based on your race, or your sexual orientation or your religious beliefs etc.

Some things should be tolerated and others things shouldn't be. If you have a problem with gays, you should be tolerant. Better yet, you should not have a problem with gays at all, in which case you aren't tolerating anything. To tolerate X implies that X pisses you off. As gay people don't piss me off, I'm not tolerating them. However, I doubt you'll be able to understand this distinction and you'll do your best to deliberately misinterpret it.

However, other things shouldn't be tolerated. The belief that black men who are intimate with white women should be lynched, obviously should not be tolerated. The idea that a women who has been raped should be stoned to death to restore family honor should not be tolerated. Even though that belief is a religious one. Yes, religious beliefs should not be tolerated when they directly cause death and destruction.

You don't get a "get out of jail free" card simply because your crime was motivated by religion.

In the words of Bill Maher:

"Atheism is a religion like Abstinence is a sex position".

Saying that you require evidence of something in order to accept it is not a religion; it's exactly the opposite of that.

Dan8267 says

When I say that religion has caused countless atrocities throughout history, this "belief" is readily verifiable.

I'm not calling that a belief.

What I am calling a belief is your inference from this that therefore religion is evil. Sounds like so much emotion to me. You disregard that good comes from religion too.

Humans have done all of the evil things you ascribe to religion, and so much more. Why don't you condemn humans as evil and not worthy of existing?

I know why. Because you are a human and therefore you see a positive side to humanity.

Kevin says

Saying that you require evidence of something in order to accept it is not a religion; it's exactly the opposite of that.

But when the extremist type atheist proselytize about the evil of religion, and take it to an irrational emotional and arrogant place, they are in my view being religious about it.

They are implicitly putting their beliefs above others in much the way that one religion puts theirs above other as the one true path. The parallels are obvious.

I do agree that religion can sometimes be dangerous or even evil. And in my view Dan's religion falls in to both categories.

Dan8267 says

I've seen what Christians do to outsiders when they get control of the government. Remember Germany, 1930s?

Thank you for discrediting yourself with that statement.

Dan8267 says

If we extreme atheists manage to get the masses to abandon all superstitious beliefs, then we succeed in taking away one tool from the toolbox used by evil

Dan, what is "evil"? That sounds like a superstitious belief.

In nature, the powerful dominate the weak. That's how evolution works. Survival of the fittest. That's not evil, that's nature.

marcus says

I do agree that religion can sometimes be dangerous or even evil. And in my view Dan's religion falls in to both categories.

Agree. Any ideology can be dangerous if its adherents belive it is SO GOOD that it must be forced on the unwilling. Dan has gone on the record saying force should be used to advance his ideology for the "betterment" of the human race. That's just as fanatical as the Crusaders of old or the present day Jihadists.

He says he doesn't like it when Bush starts a war to (supposedly) spread Christianity to the Islamic world, but he says we must defintely spread Atheism to the the Islamic world; by force if necessary.

Justice MUST be poured out...as long as it's Dan's version of justice.

Evil MUST be destroyed...as long as it's Dan's version of evil.

Dan is just as much a "true believer" in his ideology as any religious fanatic.

The demons that Dan wishes to slay are staring at him in the mirror!

Dan8267 says

In my opinion, you are simply jealous of my intellect and your fragile ego cause you to be obsessed with fighting everything I say even when you know it's right. Instead of learning from me, which a more mature person would do, you throw little tantrums.

Yes, this sounds like someone who knows they are right (imagine a sarcasm font - I add this since Dan seems to miss it when I'm kidding ).

Kevin says

In the words of Bill Maher:

"Atheism is a religion like Abstinence is a sex position".

Saying that you require evidence of something in order to accept it is not a religion; it's exactly the opposite of that.

I agree that atheism isn't a religion, but it is protected by the First Amendment as that amendment protects us from being forced to accept any religion and it protects our rights to establish our own moral codes irrespective of religion. Unless you take a broad interpretation of the First Amendment, it is worthless for protecting our liberty in the modern world.

marcus says

Humans have done all of the evil things you ascribe to religion, and so much more. Why don't you condemn humans as evil and not worthy of existing?

The amount of good and evil that humans do depends largely on the culture in which they live. Some aspects of culture promote acts of evil and others promote acts of good. Religion empirical has promoted evil far more than good.

You can't change human nature, but you can change culture. Is there anyone here who honestly would argue that the culture of Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan is better than the culture of Britain or the United States when it comes to human rights especially the rights of women? Is there anyone here who would argue that the culture of America in the 1950s was better than today's culture in terms of equal rights for all people regardless of race, gender, or sexual orientation?

Cultures can and do change. And that's a good thing.

wthrfrk80 says

Thank you for discrediting yourself with that statement.

Awesome analysis. Sort of like the following function:

return null;

wthrfrk80 says

Dan, what is "evil"? That sounds like a superstitious belief.

Only if you personify evil. I prefer a mathematical model.

wthrfrk80 says

In nature, the powerful dominate the weak. That's how evolution works. Survival of the fittest.

Just because that's how nature works doesn't mean that's how society should work. If we accepted the principle of "survival of the fittest" as the basis of society, there could not be any laws. Laws protect the weak from the strong. That is the whole purpose of law.

Do you honestly believe that our government should be based on survival of the fittest? Hell, we don't even apply that philosophy to banks.

wthrfrk80 says

Dan has gone on the record saying force should be used to advance his ideology for the "betterment" of the human race.

Quote please. Otherwise, you are making up bullshit.

My philosophy is that religion is tolerated to the degree that it is tolerant. Any religion that is incompatible with the Bill of Rights and other human and civil rights cannot be protected as doing so destroys the rights of others.

For example, religion does not give people the right to commit murder even if they call it a human sacrifice. Nor does religion give people the right to enslave another person despite the fact that the Bible says this is OK. Nor does religion give people the right to ban books they don't like or prevent interracial or intrasexual marriages.

Do any of you disagree with the above restrictions on religion? If so, have the balls to argue against them.

Any religion that insists on replacing our secular republic with a theocracy is utterly incompatible with the Constitution and the very basis of modern Western civilization. Such a religion cannot be protected while it tears apart the republic.

Nevertheless, this position I have just described does not come close to "Dan has gone on the record saying force should be used to advance his ideology for the "betterment" of the human race." Either you have completely misinterpreted everything I have said or you are deliberately misrepresenting my arguments.

wthrfrk80 says

He says he doesn't like it when Bush starts a war to (supposedly) spread Christianity to the Islamic world, but he says we must defintely spread Atheism to the the Islamic world; by force if necessary.

wthrfrk80, you are worst than a Super PAC. Are you

a. completely delusional?
b. a pathological liar?

I have never, ever said or implied in any way, shape, or form that a single person should be killed to promote Atheism. I am offended by that false and despicable accusation. And if you understood anything even remotely about my philosophy, you would know that the use of violence to force any idea on a person is antithetical to everything I believe.

What I have said is that military force is justifiable to prevent the slaughter of civilians and ethnic cleansing. To misinterpret this statement as implying that people should be slaughtered if they don't accept atheism is inexcusable.

But I guess one would expect such a thing from a religious person. It is how superstitious people have behaved throughout history. And that behavior demonstrates why we need to reject religion. The posts on this thread have clearly shown that religion prevents rational discussion. And we all know the dangers of irrationality in the modern age.

marcus says

Yes, this sounds like someone who knows they are right (imagine a sarcasm font - I add this since Dan seems to miss it when I'm kidding ).

If you want me to treat you like an adult, start acting like one. I was willing to bury the hatchet, but you decided to continue your tantrums.

thomas.wong1986 says

James Burke Connections

Btw, that's a great series.

Dan8267 says

Quote please. Otherwise, you are making up bullshit.

Here you go:

Dan8267 says

Some things should be tolerated and others things shouldn't be

Dan8267 says

I'd go to war over this issue since I've seen what Christians do to outsiders when they get control of the government.

Dan8267 says

then I say let's burn every Bible in the country

Dan8267 says

If we extreme atheists manage to get the masses to abandon all superstitious beliefs, then we succeed in taking away one tool from the toolbox used by evil. Yes, it's only one tool, but it's a damn important and often used tool. Eliminating that tool would greatly improve the condition of the world.

Dan8267 says

wthrfrk80 says

So you're going on the record as saying it's ok to attack a culture? That's a very authoritarian statement.
So be it. In Saudi Arabia women are stoned to death in honor killings because of the culture. I'll gladly go on record as saying that culture and others are bad and should end.

Dan, your extremism and intolerance is on display for everyone to see.

No one here is advocating a Theocracy in the USA. You are arguing against a straw man.

Your attempt to portray all religion as inherently evil shows your willful ignorance of facts that show the contrary.

And sorry, Hitler's ideology was not Christianity, it was German Nationalism that emphasized the supposed racial superiority of the Aryan race. Nice try. Christians such as Deitrich Bonhoeffer were vocally opposed to Hitler. And many of them got whacked because of it.

Atheist regimes are capable of the same atrocities of religous regimes, from the Reign of Terror to the Soviet Union to Communist China. Those are the facts. Your willful ignorance of those facts show you are just as irrational as any religious fanatic.

I rest my case. I have no more to say.

wthrfrk80 says

I rest my case. I have no more to say.

Thank god.

wthrfrk80 says

Any ideology can be dangerous if its adherents belive it is SO GOOD that it must be forced on the unwilling. Dan has gone on the record saying force should be used to advance his ideology for the "betterment" of the human race. That's just as fanatical as the Crusaders of old or the present day Jihadists.

Dan8267 says

Quote please. Otherwise, you are making up bullshit.

wthrfrk80 says

Here you go:
Dan8267 says
Some things should be tolerated and others things shouldn't be

The full quote, in context, of what I said was

Some things should be tolerated and others things shouldn't be. If you have a problem with gays, you should be tolerant. Better yet, you should not have a problem with gays at all, in which case you aren't tolerating anything. To tolerate X implies that X pisses you off. As gay people don't piss me off, I'm not tolerating them. However, I doubt you'll be able to understand this distinction and you'll do your best to deliberately misinterpret it.

However, other things shouldn't be tolerated. The belief that black men who are intimate with white women should be lynched, obviously should not be tolerated. The idea that a women who has been raped should be stoned to death to restore family honor should not be tolerated. Even though that belief is a religious one. Yes, religious beliefs should not be tolerated when they directly cause death and destruction.

You don't get a "get out of jail free" card simply because your crime was motivated by religion.

Therefore, wthrfrk80 is stating that because I believe that society shouldn't tolerate lynching black men or stoning women, that I am advocating a religious war. Yep, that makes total sense.

Give me some time and I'll look over his other false accusations. Tracing through all his bullshit takes time.

wthrfrk80 says

Dan8267 says
I'd go to war over this issue since I've seen what Christians do to outsiders when they get control of the government.

Full Quote:

Freedom of religion means freedom from religion. If you can't say no, you're not free. Atheism is most certainly protected by the First Amendment. And if our rights to not have religion forced down our throats isn't respected, then we won't respect your right to worship.

Tolerance is a two-way street and if atheists are protected on the same level as Christians, then I say let's burn every Bible in the country. I'd go to war over this issue since I've seen what Christians do to outsiders when they get control of the government. Remember Germany, 1930s?

Yes, I would go to war to prevent America from being taken over by neo-Nazis intent on eradicating anyone who isn't a Christian. That would be worth fighting for.

And if I had to choose between a world in which every Bible is burned and one in which you had to convert to to Christianity on pain of death like in the Middle Ages, then I'd choose the former as the far lesser of the two evils.

There is a huge difference between being willing to fight a defensive war to prevent the establishment of a tyrannical theocracy in America and proposing a preemptive war to eliminate all religious people. But I guess wthrfrk80 is incapable of seeing this difference.

wthrfrk80 says

Dan8267 says

If we extreme atheists manage to get the masses to abandon all superstitious beliefs, then we succeed in taking away one tool from the toolbox used by evil. Yes, it's only one tool, but it's a damn important and often used tool. Eliminating that tool would greatly improve the condition of the world.

Full Quote

Trust me. I don't get an ego boost from pointing out the follies and dangers of religion or disproving the existence of a god or showing how the religious myths are copies of older pagan myths. I do it because it is important to stop the irrationality that allows assholes like Rick Perry and Rick Santorum from getting elected and passing evil agendas that compromise life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

If we extreme atheists manage to get the masses to abandon all superstitious beliefs, then we succeed in taking away one tool from the toolbox used by evil. Yes, it's only one tool, but it's a damn important and often used tool. Eliminating that tool would greatly improve the condition of the world.

Does anyone deny that politicians use religion as a tool for passing evil policies and waging unjust wars?

I stand by my statement: Superstition is one of the tools used by politicians to get the masses to embrace evil policies and unjust wars.

How wthrfrk80 interprets this as waging a Crusade or Jihad -- both terms mean Holy War or the killing of non-believers -- is beyond reason.

Dan8267 says

If you want me to treat you like an adult, start acting like one. I was willing to bury the hatchet, but you decided to continue your tantrums.

Your being willing to bury the hatched was the response to a totally facetious remark on my part, when you knew you were wrong. I never stopped being certain that you were wrong. And you knew that. But that was a different thread, and a silly argument about semantics.

Instead of talking about my tantrums, why don't you just say "I know you are but what am I." For all of the times that I pointed out your childishness.

What's my most tantrum like remark in this thread? If you are going to consider my use of the word arrogant or ego or extremist in describing you or your position, as a "tantrum" I think that hardly makes sense. You only prove me right with this kind of thing:

Dan8267 says

Your perception of me does not reflect reality. Nor could your mind comprehend my thoughts. It's best you simply accept that you are incapable of understanding me as I can't dumb down me enough for you to understand.

or this:

Dan8267 says

In my opinion, you are simply jealous of my intellect and your fragile ego cause you to be obsessed with fighting everything I say even when you know it's right. Instead of learning from me, which a more mature person would do, you throw little tantrums.

Truth is you probably know you're wrong here too. I still think you might be an alter ego of Shrek, trying to associate liberals with the extreme and hateful religious type of atheism.

The usual intelligent atheist just doesn't believe in a deity, but would usually not be bothered in the slightest by that banner.

You either are Shrek or very much like him. You seem to think asserting your superiority or my inferiority is a substitute for a reasonable argument. I assure you that anyone reading it only sees it as pathetic.

All I am doing is looking at both sides of the issue before forming an opinion, something you or the character you play seems incapable of.

wthrfrk80 says

Dan8267 says

wthrfrk80 says

So you're going on the record as saying it's ok to attack a culture? That's a very authoritarian statement.

So be it. In Saudi Arabia women are stoned to death in honor killings because of the culture. I'll gladly go on record as saying that culture and others are bad and should end.

Of course the word "attack" in the phrase "attack a culture" does not imply military force as there are many ways to attack a culture: reason, counter-culture, media, etc. And the phrase is wthrfrk80's, not mine.

What I say is that a culture which stones women to death for being raped should be ended. I stand by that statement. In fact, I'd even go as far as to say that the United Nation's peace keeping forces should be used to prevent these women in Saudi Arabia from being stoned to death. Yes, that's military force, but it is justified to defend the lives of the innocent. I fail to see why wthrfrk80 has a problem with preventing rape victims from being stoned to death.

When you are playing a character instead of being yourself, it's easy to lose track of your position.

You started out associating all Christians in a community with alleged death threats from a few. When this was pointed out.

marcus says

I wonder what percentage of the Christians in the community sent death threats or approved of them ?

You're answer:

Dan8267 says

Sent: definitely a small percentage of the community.
Approved: definitely a large percentage of the community based on the community's treatment towards the girl.

So you are saying that the local Christian community approved of the death threats, because they thought her trying to have the banner taken down is wrong? Or because they thought she was being jerk for making a fuss about it.

(but now you try to moderate your position talking about condemning the worst type of fundamentalist ignorance - that you know EVERYONE AGREES WITH)

I believe that if the girl (subject of this thread) was a healthy atheist (rather than the arrogant and hateful kind) she wouldn't have worried about the beliefs of the majority of the school and she would have tried to relate to the good qualities of the people. As I said earlier.

marcus says

If I was going to fight it, in her shoes, I would have just brought the idea up at the student council, or some other group venue, and see if I could get some support for the idea of taking it down. IF there was a lot of strong objection, then I would back down. IT's not that big of a deal, and besides, it's a positive message.

and...

marcus says

Let the people have their banner with the positive message that's slightly religious in a general way. You can be their friend even if they are different than you. But because they are very much in the majority, yeah, you can either tolerate their behavior that you don't agree with, or you can take a stand that will turn them off to you.

The people's "behavior" I referred to is really just beliefs, that have zero impact on her.