patrick.net

rootvg says

So, because we were apparently at the right place at the right time

Wow, that's either an amazing sales job or an amazing story. Have you seen the scene in Glengarry Glen Ross where Al Pacino 'Ricky Roma' sells the guy in the bar?

Either way, sounds like you've found a nice place to live, you love it and have a large income to fend off uncertainties.

We don't need "encouragement".

We are not angry at the world. Over and over I've told you that.

We are not governed by emotion. That's why we don't buy new cars...because that's generally how they're sold.

We are not angry at people who want to make money or have money. We are not emotionally reflexive personalities or "silly people" or like so many of the mentally unbalanced folks this state (especially this part of the state) seems to attract.

I wonder how many of you Bay Area types would survive having to work and live in suburban NE Ohio where my wife and I are from...where people white and blue collar alike wake up, brush four to six inches of snow off their car and drive to work at a job paying probably no more than $50K per year with no job security even for those with college degrees. Oh, and by the way...they make it really hard to get that degree if you go to a state university because Ohio rations public education. Forty percent of the state budget goes to fund medical care for the large indigent elderly population. Ohio's upper and upper middle class retire to Arizona, Florida and North Carolina while those left behind have to pay for taking care of the half blind retired autoworker with diabetes (and his wife) who made good money but never saved because he had a shitty life and spent every dime he earned.

You guys don't have a clue.

FunTime says

rootvg says

So, because we were apparently at the right place at the right time

Wow, that's either an amazing sales job or an amazing story. Have you seen the scene in Glengarry Glen Ross where Al Pacino 'Ricky Roma' sells the guy in the bar?

Either way, sounds like you've found a nice place to live, you love it and have a large income to fend off uncertainties.

It actually happened that way, over the past month.

Your post would indicate that you're another one of these what I would call "silly people" or unserious personalities we see so many of here. Your opinion is so far from my consideration that I almost can't express it in words.

rootvg says

you're another one of these what I would call "silly people" or unserious personalities we see so many of here

I'm quite serious and I've worked in sales. You did consider my opinion.

Your story of your purchase illustrated a salesperson who made quite personal connections and got the sale. This can happen quite naturally and it can also be learned and practiced with the intent of successful selling.

rootvg says

You guys don't have a clue.

I actually did grow up much like you described in your writing, only I didn't make nearly that much money and statistics suggest I grew up much poorer than you. My teenaged mother was a waitress at Pizza Hut when I was born. Then we moved to a rural area where she worked at a truck stop. That was in Colorado at a very high elevation where it gets very cold.

edvard2 says

don't think that the whole "Texas" thing is overblown.

Well, I think most disgruntled Californians would agree with you.

Its not just TX. Its that entire region. I know because my folks are in NC and there has been a lot of growth there too along with a lot in the neighboring states.

Then we oughta be hearing about the Louisiana miracle or the Georgia miracle or the Ohio miracle or the Florida miracle, etc. Actually, Florida has one of the least onerous property and sales tax rates of all and no state tax -- not to mention two coast lines, mild winters and a day trip to Cuba once that whole embargo thingee is over with, which I think we will see in my lifetime. It's marred by all the Ohioans that move there, but otherwise, it's a nice little swamp. I love the South and NC in particular. I used to fish on the Cape Fear river every spring when I was a boy visiting my grands.

The reason is that a person who has what most in the Bay Area would consider a working class or lower middle class job can do reasonably well there.

Texas is big, so it depends on what part of TX you are in. All of Texas has onerous tax rates, which are set to go up this year. Utility rates are also set to spike this year and you will use a lot of utilities in just about any part of Texas during the summer months. These two factors really impact the demographic you describe above. I got a couple of buddies in Texas who hold special annual events where the proceeds go to help geezers on fixed incomes pay for their property taxes. The attitude among the young professionals pouring in from California is that these old-timers are hoarding these houses and should just move on already.

Dallas is a nice city, but too artsy fartsy for me. Austin is trying like hell to be Dallas these days, so that's no good. Houston is just too muggy and full of crime. Amarillo is cattle country and smells it. The entire state is pretty ugly. if you've driven around it, you already know that. Even the W Texas desert is by far less interesting than our Mojave.

A school teacher, carpenter, secretary, or any number of other similar type jobs in the Bay Area means you're going to rent for life. In NC, TX, GA, AL etc etc you can buy a decent house in a decent neighborhood and live about the same as someone who makes 150k in the Bay Area.

Honestly, I don't think it'd be that dramatic. Besides, this is the same mentality that rich foreigners have when moving to the Bay Area to overpay for a lifestyle out of reach of most working Bay Areans. How is that dynamic sustainable anywhere? Another thing to consider is that it isn't primarily school teachers and carpenters that are flocking to Texas, it's folks who transfer from their jobs in other states in most cases.

The East and West coasts are basically slowly emptying out their middle class populations to these areas- like TX as a result.

Where are they going to go when Texas becomes just as expensive as California, because that's the general trajectory over the long haul. If you can think a few moves ahead and figure on where that third hop might be and setup shop there, then maybe you're onto something. My personal guess is Florida. California, though, will remain peerless in many regards. It's just a beautiful chunk of country.

rootvg says

we'll refinance and get rid of the PMI

Snicker, laugh. You have PMI.

rootvg says

Why the fuck would I not do this?

Lol, you dont even think about the carrying costs.

Electric, cable, phone, schools, parcel taxes, gas, medical, cell, water,
sewer, tax, garbage, car insurance, house insurance, repairs, paint, heating, running fans, internet service.

Your topline monthly is nothing compared to the carrying costs of RE. I hope you did some math. Rent stinks, but from what I've seen, its about half the equivalent outlays in most places worth living.

And if you are unemployed, the deductions dont do much for you.

rootvg says

They were always addresses that people aspired to.

Yeah, like when Gore Vidal aspired to this address in the Hollywood Hills he purchased in the seventies for a little over 200K.

http://www.christophechoo.com/gore-vidals-hollywood-hills-home-for-sale-for-3495000-los-angeles-platinum-triangle-beverly-hills-bel-air-holmby-hills-sunset-strip-hollywood-hills-luxury-estates-celebrity-homes-homes-for-sale/

There's another reason for considering to buy a house these days (if the price is right). Think "hedge for inflation", The official inflation numbers for the last year were ~3%. From where I look gas, food, health care, education, all went up ~10%. The FED is willing to "print" as much as it takes. Will they be able to inflate, or we'll get deflation? It's everyone's guess. But one should be positioned to survive both scenarios.

Just think, if you had bought $100K of AAPL in Jan. 2009, you'd have $600K+ today to buy the place and still have some left for stuff like a new car, etc.
Of course, those who bought a place in 2009 will say they're pleased with their decision.

clambo says

Just think, if you had bought $100K of AAPL in Jan. 2009, you'd have $600K+ today to buy the place and still have some left for stuff like a new car, etc.

Of course, those who bought a place in 2009 will say they're pleased with their decision.

Oh, I know, but what if you bought in 2009 100k of RIMM.
I'm not very good at picking stocks, except in hindsight :)

clambo says

Just think, if you had bought $100K of AAPL in Jan. 2009, you'd have $600K+ today to buy the place and still have some left for stuff like a new car, etc.
Of course, those who bought a place in 2009 will say they're pleased with their decision.

Even better--if you had bought the winning powerball ticket in 2009, your $1 would be worth hundreds of millions.

Of course those who rented a place in 2009 will say they're pleased with their decision.

clambo says

Just think, if you had bought $100K of AAPL in Jan. 2009, you'd have $600K+ today to buy the place and still have some left for stuff like a new car, etc.
Of course, those who bought a place in 2009 will say they're pleased with their decision.

Investing with 20/20 hindsight is very profitible.

So, I wonder still - if housing is so robust around the fortress (Mountain View specifically) - why do realtors still manipulate the house prices? Example - mind you the only one I have ever noticed like this, but it makes you wonder if there are others - a house was up for sale for 775, I thought it was too much, sold for 685, not "such" a bad price - then when I looked at the original asking price listed it now said it was 675 - so it was sold "above" asking!!!! Not nearly 90k under - something screwy is still going on :-(

Claire says

So, I wonder still - if housing is so robust around the fortress (Mountain View specifically) - why do realtors still manipulate the house prices? Example - mind you the only one I have ever noticed like this, but it makes you wonder if there are others - a house was up for sale for 775, I thought it was too much, sold for 685, not "such" a bad price - then when I looked at the original asking price listed it now said it was 675 - so it was sold "above" asking!!!! Not nearly 90k under - something screwy is still going on :-(

This bull is definitely not a one time event. When an organization that has a conflict of interest in a market (always favors the upside) has control over the data, you can be absolutely 100% sure there is manipulation happening all the time. Human nature and the reason why we need to overhaul the whole system. Dismantle NAR, go to fixed fees for realtors, and create a free open online database for buying/selling. Lastly, make title insurance an option, not mandatory. I bought a new house in 2003 and had to pay $1200 for them to do the title search. Huh? I am the first owner idiots. If the builder can't guarantee that he actually owned the land and can sell me the house in the free and clear, then I'll just take him to court. I don't need any stinking title search. There is no back taxes on a house that was never owned. Just another money grab by an organization more corrupt and powerful than the Mofia IMHO.

Claire says

So, I wonder still - if housing is so robust around the fortress (Mountain View specifically) - why do realtors still manipulate the house prices? Example - mind you the only one I have ever noticed like this, but it makes you wonder if there are others - a house was up for sale for 775, I thought it was too much, sold for 685, not "such" a bad price - then when I looked at the original asking price listed it now said it was 675 - so it was sold "above" asking!!!! Not nearly 90k under - something screwy is still going on :-(

Here's another screwy one:
http://www.redfin.com/CA/Mountain-View/697-Woburn-Ct-94040/home/647656
Sold for 1.4M in 2006, now sale pending at 1.7M. It'll probably fall through though and wind up selling for $400k.

tiny tina says

Claire says

So, I wonder still - if housing is so robust around the fortress (Mountain View specifically) - why do realtors still manipulate the house prices? Example - mind you the only one I have ever noticed like this, but it makes you wonder if there are others - a house was up for sale for 775, I thought it was too much, sold for 685, not "such" a bad price - then when I looked at the original asking price listed it now said it was 675 - so it was sold "above" asking!!!! Not nearly 90k under - something screwy is still going on :-(

Here's another screwy one:

http://www.redfin.com/CA/Mountain-View/697-Woburn-Ct-94040/home/647656

Sold for 1.4M in 2006, now sale pending at 1.7M. It'll probably fall through though and wind up selling for $400k.

One point seven? THAT?

I would say a foreigner will buy it or may already have.

rootvg says

I would say a foreigner will buy it or may already have.

Uh,someone is cashing out the apple stocks bought in 2003. :)

rootvg says

Here's another screwy one:

http://www.redfin.com/CA/Mountain-View/697-Woburn-Ct-94040/home/647656

Sold for 1.4M in 2006, now sale pending at 1.7M. It'll probably fall through though and wind up selling for $400k.

One point seven? THAT?

I would say a foreigner will buy it or may already have.

Didn't you see though? It came with an almost new washer and dryer. And don't get me started on the schools. We are lucky houses like this are not sold for 1/2 googleplex because of the school. Oh the schools, how good they have become since 1990. I guess everyone got a raw deal back then when houses only cost 200k or so.

bubblesitter says

rootvg says

I would say a foreigner will buy it or may already have.

Uh,someone is cashing out the apple stocks bought in 2003. :)

If they're smart? Yeah, probably.

I had my issues with Jobs but nothing succeeds like success. I'll also say that Apple while supposedly having five years of product in the pipeline post Jobs is very likely to end up as "just another tech company" or more likely acquired by someone else down the road.

One of our vendors was here to take us to dinner last week and she said the Sun/IBM deal almost went through and if it had, the entire landscape of corporate computing would have changed. We're still hearing rumors about Meg cleaning up HP and getting it ready for sale.

JodyChunder says

Honestly, I don't think it'd be that dramatic. Besides, this is the same mentality that rich foreigners have when moving to the Bay Area to overpay for a lifestyle out of reach of most working Bay Areans. How is that dynamic sustainable anywhere? Another thing to consider is that it isn't primarily school teachers and carpenters that are flocking to Texas, it's folks who transfer from their jobs in other states in most cases.

The East and West coasts are basically slowly emptying out their middle class populations to these areas- like TX as a result.

Where are they going to go when Texas becomes just as expensive as California, because that's the general trajectory over the long haul. If you can think a few moves ahead and figure on where that third hop might be and setup shop there, then maybe you're onto something. My personal guess is Florida. California, though, will remain peerless in many regards. It's just a beautiful chunk of country.

All I can say is that my Mom is a school teacher in NC and has been for almost 38 years. Last year her school alone had 9 students and all were from California. My parents have repeatedly run into people from Cali, NY, MA, and other expensive areas who moved on down and are tickled as punch because they can affrdo to live there and live well at that.

Also- whenever I go home and visit the amount of apparent growth is dramatic. There are many reasons the Southeast- as in NC, GA, TN, and SC are growing as they are- mostly for reasons I mentioned before. Whether its a good or bad thing most of these states have hardly any barriers when it comes to development. A homebuilder can bulldoze anything and stick in a tract of homes anywhere. As a result I'll go home and where there was once a farm there now exists a whole new batch of Mcmansions- all in the 150-200k range because unlike Cali, there are no heavy requirements to make them earthquake proof.

TX is the same. There are few if any regulations or rules to prevent companies from building new houses like crazy. What happens ANYTIME a housing development is suggested anywhere near the Bay Area? People cry foul, whine, and complain about it. So as a result no new housing gets built. Prices are high as a result. No such thing happens in TX or the other robust growth states.

Lastly, all of these states have a MASSIVE amount of land with hardly any space limitations. Thus with that in mind, therein lies the reason why housing remains cheap.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

rootvg says

Here's another screwy one:

http://www.redfin.com/CA/Mountain-View/697-Woburn-Ct-94040/home/647656

Sold for 1.4M in 2006, now sale pending at 1.7M. It'll probably fall through though and wind up selling for $400k.

One point seven? THAT?

I would say a foreigner will buy it or may already have.

Didn't you see though? It came with an almost new washer and dryer. And don't get me started on the schools. We are lucky houses like this are not sold for 1/2 googleplex because of the school. Oh the schools, how good they have become since 1990. I guess everyone got a raw deal back then when houses only cost 200k or so.

I paid what I paid because it was Danville, and I knew that going in. The stuff we looked at in San Ramon wasn't much less and it wasn't where I wanted to live anyway. I didn't want to do Lafayette because it's expensive, liberal and "diverse" and I'm generally not an open minded person.

My father in law said the most dangerous thing in the world is a redneck with a college education. He's been gone almost fifteen years but I have to admit he was right.

rootvg says

"diverse" and I'm generally not an open minded person.

Is this just a fancy way of saying that you are racist?

I've never heard it put quite like that. Kudos for being honest. I guess.

Glad you are not my neighbor.

1sfrenter says

rootvg says

"diverse" and I'm generally not an open minded person.

Is this just a fancy way of saying that you are racist?

I've never heard it put quite like that. Kudos for being honest. I guess.

Glad you are not my neighbor.

Actually, I'm not...but what would you do about it if I was? We still have a Constitution and I still have my First Amendment rights and you can't do anything about that.

Before you answer (if you answer), keep in mind that I'm not subject to the normal Bay Area silly person pseudo intellectual mindfog techniques or shame or any of the other childish shit people do here when they want to make some sort of social statement or attract attention. I'm completely immune.

There's already a "race war" thread over in the Politics section...

wthrfrk80 says

There's already a "race war" thread over in the Politics section...

I'm actually a big fan of Tom Tancredo, who says we need to shut the borders for awhile to let the country "heal" (his words, actually) and have all these groups assimilate as they did after previous waves of mass immigration.

Yikes that's a whole different thread...

My father's people came from Germany in 1848, settling in central PA where most of them live today. It's funny that when you walk down the streets of that town, many of the people look alike. Seriously!

rootvg says

I paid what I paid because it was Danville, and I knew that going in. The stuff we looked at in San Ramon wasn't much less and it wasn't where I wanted to live anyway. I didn't want to do Lafayette because it's expensive, liberal and "diverse" and I'm generally not an open minded person.

My father in law said the most dangerous thing in the world is a redneck with a college education. He's been gone almost fifteen years but I have to admit he was right.

Don't see how your response has any connection to the 1.7 million dollar home in mountain view? I think you made a great call buying in Danville, over San Ramon, but an even greater call would have been to buy in 3 years IMHO. The same arguments for people buying now have been kicked around for the last 5 year. They were incorrect then and they are still incorrect in my view. Rent until it is time to realistically buy for historically average prices. When they do come back in the BA, maybe the humanity will return to this area as well. I can only hope.

It was the right house at the right price and the right situation, because I didn't have to deal with some asshole Baby Boomer who thinks he's entitled to my money or screwball Asian investor playing games or using his culture to fog me or play me off against someone.

It's the same as rent. It fit our budget. We like it.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

It's the same as rent. It fit our budget. We like it.

That's all that matters. I wouldn't worry about some guy on the Internet saying buying in 3 years would be better (like he knows the future). Particularly, when he ends with: "I can only hope."

rootvg says

Actually, I'm not...but what would you do about it if I was?

Like I just wrote, I just hope and pray I don't end up being your neighbor, because my guess is that my family would fit into your description of "diverse" and I would prefer to live surrounded by people who don't judge me before they even know me.

And YES, this is a housing issue. Many of us choose to pay top dollar to live in a place like SF or NYC or Berkeley so we can be treated fairly and as equals and be safe.

If you are a queer, bi-racial couple with children, the idea that you could just move to Texas or some cheap podunk town is not really an option.

Unless of course you want bottles thrown at you from passing cars (yes, that's happened to me), your kids bullies mercilessly (yes that happens) and people generally just treating you badly or giving you the cold shoulder because you don't look like they think you should.

rootvg says

keep in mind that I'm not subject to the normal Bay Area silly person pseudo intellectual mindfog techniques or shame or any of the other childish shit people do here when they want to make some sort of social statement or attract attention. I'm completely immune.

Another veiled way of saying, "I am part of the mainstream so need not consider anyone else's experience or point of view because everything is just peachy for me and mine."

Danville is just far away enough to be sure you don't have any blacks or fags moving in next door, huh?

Eh, even Houston has a "gayborhood."

1sfrenter says

rootvg says

keep in mind that I'm not subject to the normal Bay Area silly person pseudo intellectual mindfog techniques or shame or any of the other childish shit people do here when they want to make some sort of social statement or attract attention. I'm completely immune.

Another veiled way of saying, "I am part of the mainstream so need not consider anyone else's experience or point of view because everything is just peachy for me and mine."

Danville is just far away enough to be sure you don't have any blacks or fags moving in next door, huh?

You said it, I didn't.

wthrfrk80 says

Eh, even Houston has a "gayborhood."

Dallas (where we lived for eight years) has a large and influential gay community as well but guess what? They don't push themselves and their values on you. They don't rock the boat...but then again, the Bay Area mentality is all about boat rocking and narcissism and attracting attention.

rootvg says

Dallas (where we lived for eight years) has a large and influential gay community as well but guess what? They don't push themselves and their values on you.

I didn't know that was even possible. Seem like so much of the "gay community" is "in your face."

rootvg says

the Bay Area mentality is all about boat rocking and narcissism and attracting attention.

It sure seems that way, at least to this Rust Belt Boy.

Gays here are in your face because so many of them seem to be angry at the world...and because many of them simply have too much money.

1sfrenter says

If you are a queer, bi-racial couple with children, the idea that you could just move to Texas or some cheap podunk town is not really an option.

So what is your point? Don't move places you won't be accepted, that's not rocket science. There are places other than SF and Greenwich Village that are tolerant or even accepting that are not expensive. Options exist so don't bother playing the victim card.