patrick.net

RentingForHalfTheCost says

It's the same as rent. It fit our budget. We like it.

That's all that matters. I wouldn't worry about some guy on the Internet saying buying in 3 years would be better (like he knows the future). Particularly, when he ends with: "I can only hope."

rootvg says

Actually, I'm not...but what would you do about it if I was?

Like I just wrote, I just hope and pray I don't end up being your neighbor, because my guess is that my family would fit into your description of "diverse" and I would prefer to live surrounded by people who don't judge me before they even know me.

And YES, this is a housing issue. Many of us choose to pay top dollar to live in a place like SF or NYC or Berkeley so we can be treated fairly and as equals and be safe.

If you are a queer, bi-racial couple with children, the idea that you could just move to Texas or some cheap podunk town is not really an option.

Unless of course you want bottles thrown at you from passing cars (yes, that's happened to me), your kids bullies mercilessly (yes that happens) and people generally just treating you badly or giving you the cold shoulder because you don't look like they think you should.

rootvg says

keep in mind that I'm not subject to the normal Bay Area silly person pseudo intellectual mindfog techniques or shame or any of the other childish shit people do here when they want to make some sort of social statement or attract attention. I'm completely immune.

Another veiled way of saying, "I am part of the mainstream so need not consider anyone else's experience or point of view because everything is just peachy for me and mine."

Danville is just far away enough to be sure you don't have any blacks or fags moving in next door, huh?

Eh, even Houston has a "gayborhood."

1sfrenter says

rootvg says

keep in mind that I'm not subject to the normal Bay Area silly person pseudo intellectual mindfog techniques or shame or any of the other childish shit people do here when they want to make some sort of social statement or attract attention. I'm completely immune.

Another veiled way of saying, "I am part of the mainstream so need not consider anyone else's experience or point of view because everything is just peachy for me and mine."

Danville is just far away enough to be sure you don't have any blacks or fags moving in next door, huh?

You said it, I didn't.

wthrfrk80 says

Eh, even Houston has a "gayborhood."

Dallas (where we lived for eight years) has a large and influential gay community as well but guess what? They don't push themselves and their values on you. They don't rock the boat...but then again, the Bay Area mentality is all about boat rocking and narcissism and attracting attention.

rootvg says

Dallas (where we lived for eight years) has a large and influential gay community as well but guess what? They don't push themselves and their values on you.

I didn't know that was even possible. Seem like so much of the "gay community" is "in your face."

rootvg says

the Bay Area mentality is all about boat rocking and narcissism and attracting attention.

It sure seems that way, at least to this Rust Belt Boy.

Gays here are in your face because so many of them seem to be angry at the world...and because many of them simply have too much money.

1sfrenter says

If you are a queer, bi-racial couple with children, the idea that you could just move to Texas or some cheap podunk town is not really an option.

So what is your point? Don't move places you won't be accepted, that's not rocket science. There are places other than SF and Greenwich Village that are tolerant or even accepting that are not expensive. Options exist so don't bother playing the victim card.

My wife and I, as straight white conservative Republicans, would no more attempt to move to the Castro than fly to the moon.

There are even places where we came from in NE Ohio that are more open and accepting than others. Two flaming homosexual males buying a house and raising a child in Wadsworth, Ohio would be complete fucking social suicide. Those same people moving to Lakewood (regentrified suburb on the west side of Cleveland) or Cleveland Heights (similar sort of place on the east side) would be far better off. Better yet, try the same thing in one of the neighborhoods near Kent State University about an hour to the southeast. No one would ever know they were there. That's how little it would matter.

Or if you want to get into the Crystal Meth business, Ashtabula is a great location.

wthrfrk80 says

Or if you want to get into the Crystal Meth business, Ashtabula is a great location.

Ashtabula is another one of those places that's become an economic black hole in the wake of NAFTA and GATT. It was securely blue collar and middle class but now it's no collar and aspires to be working class. Youngstown, Ashtabula, Steubenville, Zanesville, Mansfield...the names are all different but the stories tend to be the same.

Akron's doing a little better because there's a state university there and they still have some old money but not enough to keep us there.

Yep, it's the same story throughout the Rust Belt.

I grew up near Butler, PA and it was a typical blue-collar middle class town. Now it's the Heroin capital of western PA.

It's not just the Far Left intellectuals that are destroying the traditional family. The Economic Right is wiping out the family economically. It's hard for mom to stay at home with the kids (assuming she wants to) if dad only makes $7/hour.

bob2356 says

There are places other than SF and Greenwich Village that are tolerant or even accepting that are not expensive. Options exist so don't bother playing the victim card.

Don't judge until you've walked a mile in someone else''s shoes. I've lived in many places, and choose to live in a place where my family will be accepted.

If it were just me, I would have no qualms being an outspoken agent of change. But I don't think it is fair to put young children in a situation where they have to fight those kinds of battles.

Calling someone out on their bigotry is not playing victim. Keeping quiet about discrimination is playing victim.

The anonymity of the web lets people show their true colors, and the homophobia and racism on many blogs is astounding.

1sfrenter says

The anonymity of the web lets people show their true colors, and the homophobia and racism on many blogs is astounding.

There is no such thing as "homophobia." That word is a purely political term.

Ah, yes. Another guy who knows where to find a good hoagie. When we go back there I always go to the local OIP two or three times just to raise the level of hoagieglobin in my blood so I can get a high from it.

One of my major missions in life is to find a place in the SF Bay Area that has decent italian subs (NOT made with sourdough or mayo/mustard!) like the ones back home. I may as well be Diogenes, looking for the last honest man.

Lewistown has the same problem because there's just nothing for the kids to look forward to. It's been really bad since 2000. Wadsworth, Ohio (four hours to the west, about two and a half from Butler) is a little better but it has the same problems. If you're not college bound, you go into the service or you're toast.

Definition of HOMOPHOBIA, Mirriam Websters

ho·mo·pho·bic adjective

irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals

First Known Use of HOMOPHOBIA
1969

Discrimination, clear and simple.

rootvg says

I don't like them. I think they're subhuman. They're chronically angry at the world, perpetually unstable emotionally and aspire to corrupt everything they touch. They hate middle America and everything it stands for.

big·ot
noun \ˈbi-gət\
: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
— big·ot·ed \-gə-təd\ adjective

Anyone can invent a word. If it "catches on", it might even end up in the dictionary.

The word "Santorum" has an alternate definition. Will it make it into the dictionary?

It's a good tactic. Other groups have taken notice. So we now have the term "Islamophobia." I wonder how long before that one makes it into the dictionary.

If our banker overlords were smart, they'd coin the term "Bankerphobia."

Bankers: "you can't regulate us! That's Bankerphobia!"

1sfrenter says

Definition of HOMOPHOBIA, Mirriam Websters

ho·mo·pho·bic adjective

irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals

First Known Use of HOMOPHOBIA

1969

Discrimination, clear and simple.

First of all, I told you that when this conversation started that I wouldn't be susceptible to your or anyone else's mindscrewing. I've been posting in forums for a VERY, VERY long time. I know what I'm doing.

1969 was just about at the same time Stonewall happened and the counterculture thing started to gel. It was part of the whole sixties thing...and it was also the progressive policies of that era which provided the foundation for the fiscal nightmare we face today.

SF is loaded with aging hippies whose money and influence allow them to make yet another statement of rebellion before they die. They're still pissed off about Nixon and what he did to McGovern in 1972. That's not my problem and it's not going to be.

Why do you think KQED advertises for people to put them in their wills and trusts? Just who do you think has those kinds of resources and would leave them to a fucking public television station?

Did you also know SF was at one time a Republican town? Yes! Before the military started discharging faggots here and the whole sixties counter culture thing happened and the tech boom began in the late fifties, SF was a middle class/working class town. I doubt it will ever be that way again.

tiny tina says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

It's the same as rent. It fit our budget. We like it.

That's all that matters. I wouldn't worry about some guy on the Internet saying buying in 3 years would be better (like he knows the future). Particularly, when he ends with: "I can only hope."

Hmm. Now you are taking comments out of context. I said "I can only hope" in reference to humanity returning as the prices get adjusted back to the historical averages. I am betting my own money on that happening, so it is much stronger than hope. The humanity reference was actually with people like you in mind, that divert the topic from substance to personal attacks. It shows how little you have to substantiate any claim you make.

tiny tina says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

It's the same as rent. It fit our budget. We like it.

That's all that matters. I wouldn't worry about some guy on the Internet saying buying in 3 years would be better (like he knows the future). Particularly, when he ends with: "I can only hope."

If you really get down to it, it is not the same as rent. It has been proven many times by many people here. If someone just doesn't want to listen to the obvious then nothing we can do. The question is if you really don't care about losing savings potential in exchange for not having to be a house renter. There are small changes that happen when you rent money instead of a house, but if these changes affect you psychologically and make your life better then do it. Stop saying you did it for financial reasons (that shows you don't know how to add). Say you are doing it for perfectly valid reasons that you believe in and your life gets better because of them. Just because it costs you more for something doesn't mean it is the wrong thing.

To hammer the point home. If all of a sudden I was put in a 600k house in Danville that can only be rented for $2500/mth, I would immediately put it up for sale and take the money and run. I would rent the equivalent house down the road and be pecfectly fine doing it. Not everyone agrees, and that is fine, we need all kinds and I'm happy people overpay, it keeps the Ponzi scheme going for a while longer. While I wait, I just keep getting in a stronger and stronger financial position. Fine by me.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

tiny tina says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

It's the same as rent. It fit our budget. We like it.

That's all that matters. I wouldn't worry about some guy on the Internet saying buying in 3 years would be better (like he knows the future). Particularly, when he ends with: "I can only hope."

Hmm. Now you are taking comments out of context. I said "I can only hope" in reference to humanity returning as the prices get adjusted back to the historical averages. I am betting my own money on that happening, so it is much stronger than hope. The humanity reference was actually with people like you in mind, that divert the topic from substance to personal attacks. It shows how little you have to substantiate any claim you make.

During the Civil War, people said Lincoln could never put Humpty Dumpty back together again. There are still people in the south who are unhappy with the way he did it...but he did it.

During the Great Depression, people said America was over...and it wasn't. We came back to fight a world war on two fronts AND help the British save themselves from Hitler. Even today, it remains a stunning logistical achievement in world history and testament to our abilities.

During the early sixties, Nikita Khrushchev was banging his shoe on a podium and saying they would bury us. Kids were subject to drills where they would crawl under their desks in school while sirens blared around them. Today, the Soviet Union no longer exists and there's even talk of Castro's brother opening up Cuba simply because there's no Soviet sugar daddy for them to lean on anymore.

Winston Churchill said more than once that Americans always eventually do the right thing, when all other avenues have been exhausted. I still don't know if that was a compliment or backhanded insult but in either case, he was right.

I really think we're gonna be fine.

1sfrenter says

tiny tina says

I would disagree. 600k is still basically at a nosebleed level. I say this as someone who makes 6 figures. If using traditional means of measuring affordability, the buyer of a 600k house would need to be pulling in a total of 200k per year and do so consistently. Last time I looked the medians even in the most expensive Bay Area locations is nowhere near that high.

Absolutely agree - but with rents for a 500-600K house running about 3K month, if you have 20% down you are looking at roughly the same cost per month.

Yes, this is too much, but unless rents collapse, this is where we are, at least here.

http://patrick.net/housing/calculator.php?uaddr=%2C+&rent=3%2C000&price=600%2C000

If you mean "roughly the same" as in one (buying) would put you back 35,000 more than renting after 7 years then yes, that is true. Assumption used, 4% (perfect credit and timing), optimistic no price change in house in 7 yrs time (put in 2% depreciation and all hell breaks loose), you only make 3% after-tax on your down payment when you rent.

If you compare 500K buy to 3K rent, now we are talking. Show me that house and I will actually become a buyer.

Mick Russom says

rootvg says

Why the fuck would I not do this?

Lol, you dont even think about the carrying costs.

Electric, cable, phone, schools, parcel taxes, gas, medical, cell, water,

sewer, tax, garbage, car insurance, house insurance, repairs, paint, heating, running fans, internet service.

Your topline monthly is nothing compared to the carrying costs of RE. I hope you did some math. Rent stinks, but from what I've seen, its about half the equivalent outlays in most places worth living.

And if you are unemployed, the deductions dont do much for you.

Of what you listed above, the only thing I wasn't paying as a renter are paint, house insurance (I had a renter's policy) and real estate tax. Everything else is the same or will be less because this house is insulated where the other one wasn't.

Again, don't you think I know all this?

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Hmm. Now you are taking comments out of context. I said "I can only hope" in reference to humanity returning as the prices get adjusted back to the historical averages. I am betting my own money on that happening, so it is much stronger than hope. The humanity reference was actually with people like you in mind, that divert the topic from substance to personal attacks. It shows how little you have to substantiate any claim you make.

It's not my fault you weren't clear what you were hopeful for. You had 2 thoughts in the same sentence followed by "I can only hope." If you meant for "hope" being related to "humanity," fine, you've clarified. You still have no idea what prices will be like in 3 years. The person who is buying the MV home for $1.7M (if it goes for that or near that) probably wishes he bought in 2006 for $1.5M, no?

Tina, can you help me buy this place? It rents for 3300/mth so should be in the 550-650K range to purchase. If you can set this up for me I'll cut you a 20K check on top of you usual commission. I will not even report that I gave you 20K cash, it'll be our little secret. Thanks

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/apa/2880049402.html

tiny tina says

It's not my fault you weren't clear what you were hopeful for.

Seems pretty clear english to me.

"When they do come back in the BA, maybe the humanity will return to this area as well. I can only hope."

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Tina, can you help me buy this place? It rents for 3300/mth so should be in the 550-650K range to purchase. If you can set this up for me I'll cut you a 20K check on top of you usual commission. I will not even report that I gave you 20K cash, it'll be our little secret. Thanks

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/apa/2880049402.html

Not sure why you guys think I'm an agent. Or is that just a petty ploy to discredit anyone who doesn't groupthink that prices are collapsing? Talk about personal attacks.

I love your fair price range. Good luck with that.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Seems pretty clear english to me.

"When they do come back in the BA, maybe the humanity will return to this area as well. I can only hope."

You would hope so...you wrote it.

tiny tina says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Tina, can you help me buy this place? It rents for 3300/mth so should be in the 550-650K range to purchase. If you can set this up for me I'll cut you a 20K check on top of you usual commission. I will not even report that I gave you 20K cash, it'll be our little secret. Thanks

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/apa/2880049402.html

Not sure why you guys think I'm an agent. Or is that just a petty ploy to discredit anyone who doesn't groupthink that prices are collapsing? Talk about personal attacks.

Not a personal attack. I was hoping you would take the challenge and find me that house you think make sense to buy in the bay area. It would be a win-win. You would be happy because it would prove you have been completely correct all along, and I would be happy because I would pay a reasonable amount of my savings for a house. No one looses except the poor sucker that is paying 1.7m for a 800k in mountain view. So sad...

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Not a personal attack. I was hoping you would take the challenge and find me that house you think make sense to buy in the bay area. It would be a win-win. You would be happy because it would prove you have been completely correct all along, and I would be happy because I would pay a reasonable amount of my savings for a house. No one looses except the poor sucker that is paying 1.7m for a 800k in mountain view. So sad...

Ok. Here's a deal. Get some money - you know, invest in AAPL 10 years retroactively, come up with an offer that is consistent with the current market, and in return I'll go take the agent/broker exam and will represent you. I'll take $10k (half price) for that Monta Vista house you are dreaming about. Deal? If not, keep "hoping" that prices in Monta Vista will fall to $600k.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

tiny tina says

It's not my fault you weren't clear what you were hopeful for.

Seems pretty clear english to me.

"When they do come back in the BA, maybe the humanity will return to this area as well. I can only hope."

I can't find the quote, but Michael Bloomberg said something fairly recently that I think also applies to the Bay Area. He said certain places (initially referring to NYC) simply won't be for middle class people anymore. It's a combination of a lot of things: the job base, the preexisting commitment to public employees who support the infrastructure and public education system, overall expectations for living standards and the types of people places like this attract.

My earliest memories go back to about 1968-1970, when my father bought a brand new 1971 Pontiac Catalina (I remember it sitting in the driveway) and had a 1968 Bonneville and 1965 Catalina before that. Middle class America at least in heavily industrial NE Ohio was still alive then. Goodyear, Goodrich, Firestone, General and to a lesser extent Seiberling were all still in business in Akron. Mom didn't work, Dad sold life insurance to blue collar workers in the surrounding area. Life was good.

I'd love to go back to those days but we can't. We've come so far societally and technologically since then and we live a lot longer, too.

I would tell you there are still good jobs out there for the kids in normal times but they aren't in the industries they used to be and they sure aren't where they used to be. The Democratic party and its allies in organized labor had a lot to do with that but no matter, it's all largely water under the bridge at this point.

The Bay Area is expensive. This is a top drawer place to live and it costs like hell. There's no such thing as living the way my parents' Great Depression era friends lived in Ohio. If you want to live that way you have to go over the hill to Tracy and if you have to live that way you probably should relocate out of state. That's the hard fact. That's what Bloomberg was trying to find a diplomatic way of saying. People who are attracted here have money or make money and that's reflected in the cost of everything and even in the surrounding popular culture. People think they're entitled to things (especially bad around Walnut Creek for some reason) and that drives me nuts but we're HERE. I've sort of learned to deal with it. Sort of.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Tina, can you help me buy this place? It rents for 3300/mth so should be in the 550-650K range to purchase. If you can set this up for me I'll cut you a 20K check on top of you usual commission. I will not even report that I gave you 20K cash, it'll be our little secret. Thanks

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/apa/2880049402.html

A lot of things should be but aren't. That's what this conversation is really about.

Why do you think we did what we did? I spent a lot of years pushing my feet under the table of someone who put on a suit and went out every day for forty years and sold people on the idea of giving him money because something bad might happen to them and they should be ready for it. Did I not learn anything during all those years? If you say yes, you're either being horribly disingenuous or I haven't been a good enough communicator since I opened my account here.

tiny tina says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Not a personal attack. I was hoping you would take the challenge and find me that house you think make sense to buy in the bay area. It would be a win-win. You would be happy because it would prove you have been completely correct all along, and I would be happy because I would pay a reasonable amount of my savings for a house. No one looses except the poor sucker that is paying 1.7m for a 800k in mountain view. So sad...

Ok. Here's a deal. Get some money - you know, invest in AAPL 10 years retroactively, come up with an offer that is consistent with the current market, and in return I'll go take the agent/broker exam and will represent you. I'll take $10k (half price) for that Monta Vista house you are dreaming about. Deal? If not, keep "hoping" that prices in Monta Vista will fall to $600k.

Been there done that. Invested in AAPL correctly, also CSCO, and DELL. The problem is not having the money, it is not losing it. I already have houses that show my good market timing. They are just not here in the BA.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Been there done that. Invested in AAPL correctly, also CSCO, and DELL. The problem is not having the money, it is not losing it. I already have houses that show my good market timing. They are just not here in the BA.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yet you completely missed out with your timing on where you actually live. If you were as savvy as you think you are you wouldn't be quoting $600k for Monta Vista houses that are are selling for over $1M. I'm pretty sure I've said this before...it isn't 2007 anymore.

Again, I would no more hope for that kind of a drop in housing values that close to Silicon Valley than I would slit my wrists.

There's TOO MUCH money here, and too much money in the hands of people who never earned it or earned it too easily or grew up in upper middle class circumstances and take it for granted. You can't beat that with logic. You pay the freight or you leave. We can't leave and we don't want to live in the United Colors of Benetton.

tiny tina says

If not, keep "hoping" that prices in Monta Vista will fall to $600k.

Correct me if I am getting this wrong. Are you saying that it is a much better deal to rent this million dollar home in Monta Vista for 3300/mth than to buy it? I seem like I have been here before, but the answer is starting to change now. I thought it was a great time to buy around here?

tiny tina says

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Been there done that. Invested in AAPL correctly, also CSCO, and DELL. The problem is not having the money, it is not losing it. I already have houses that show my good market timing. They are just not here in the BA.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yet you completely missed out with your timing on where you actually live. If you were as savvy as you think you are you wouldn't be quoting $600k for Monta Vista houses that are are selling for over $1M. I'm pretty sure I've said this before...it isn't 2007 anymore.

I live in a million dollar home already. Just rent it for $3000/mth just like that Monte Vista home. You argue in circles. It is not 2007, that is absolutely true, from a real estate point of view it is almost 2001. This means that Monte Vista house owner doesn't get it. He still thinks it is 2007, and part of the reason he doesn't sell. He then decide to rent while he waits for 2007 to return. However, when he researches the market he realizes he can only get 3300/mth for the place. They are 2001 rents btw. I rented down there in 1998 for $2000 and only got a clean but small 2/1 duplex. So the renting market is aware of the date change because it needs cash (real cash), however, the buying market is still in a manipulation phase that will slowly end with time.

RentingForHalfTheCost says

Correct me if I am getting this wrong. Are you saying that it is a much better deal to rent this million dollar home in Monta Vista for 3300/mth than to buy it? I seem like I have been here before, but the answer is starting to change now. I thought it was a great time to buy around here?

Where did I say it was a great time to buy in Monta Vista? Everything I have said is clearly documented. Please copy and paste it below.