patrick.net

Oh, and btw, Nomo and Kevin. I am not a victim. I DO feel many of my fellow middle aged straight white males are victimized, however. Beyond that, I just enjoy the discussion. Thanks for keeping it *cough* civil.

kentm says

Reconcile this statement with the study I posted above that proved how competent individuals were passed over because of the internalized biases of those judging them in favor of more visually acceptable but less competent individuals. I double dog dare you to acknowledge and accept the findings of that study, WITHOUT twisting it's meaning to support your position, which is exactly the opposite.

I don't refute your study. I disagree with the viewpoint that STATE SPONSORED ANTI-WHITE PREJUDICE (affirmative action) is a good thing!

Honest Abe says

Kevin, "Crackers" are not allowed to form groups to promote their own advancement (which was the main point of the original post).

Its not that whitie isn't involved with government, business, education, religion. It's just not acceptable to liberals or other racist groups for whites to form groups LIKE THEY HAVE, to "promote or advance" their own agenda.

I agree with you Abe....Lets get this thread back on topic and consider this as a factor in Whites not being able to form racially solid groups....

In Chandler Arizona in 2007, the police described a "Hispanic" male that was a suspect in a crime. The Vice President for the network, KMYL radio, demanded this was "racial profiling" and said the police should have said the man was "dark-skinned" (Nicole Beyer, "Calling Rapist a Hispanic Irks Radio Station," East Valley Tribune, Nov. 10,2007)

In Hillsborough Florida, the local high school editor was going to publish an article on the racial gap in standardized test scores. William Orr, the principal, ordered the article be removed from the paper because even though the article was factually correct, he wouldn't let students self esteem be hurt (Letitia Stein, "School Newspaper Censored" St. Petersburg Times, Oct 24, 2006).

On January 15, 2005, There was a march to celebrate the Martin Luther King holiday. A white police officer was helping to patrol the route of the parade. A snack van was sent out for the hungry officers and he chose a banana to eat. To his amazement, members of the march insisted he was comparing them to apes! The mayor of the city wrote an apology letter! (Sorry About the Snacks," Columbus Ledger-Enquirer (GA) Jan. 28, 2005)

Whites have been conditioned to police their speech and actions because of innumerous incidents like these portrayed in the media, pop culture, and experienced in their own personal lives. Whites know minorities, but blacks in particular, will take offense to almost anything! Whites have been conditioned to be afraid of being called a racist, or prejudiced. They know that they could lose jobs, business contacts, social acceptance, etc. if they are labeled as a racist.

Experiments at the Tufts University and Harvard Business School have proven that White children as young as 10 have this "fear" of appearing racist. They were paired with another subject. One of the subjects had 1 photo of a specific person on it. The other subject had 30 photos of different people. The subject had to figure out what photo the other was holding only by asking yes or no questions. Obviously, asking questions about the race of the individual would significantly narrow down the choices, but the white subject would only do so if his partner was white. If his partner was black, only 10% would ask questions about race. They were afraid to admit they even noticed race! Co-author of the study, Kristin Pauker, said "This result is fascinating because it shows that children as young as 10 feel the need to try to avoid appearing prejudiced, even if doing so leads them to perform poorly on a basic cognitive test".

Although, there is no consequences if minorities don't follow this "racial etiquette".

A black commissioner in Orlando Florida angered the police when she stated that a "white boy" police officer pulled her over. When an apology was demanded she said, "That is how I talk and I don't plan to change" (Mark Schlueb, "Orlando Police Seek Apology for City Commissionars Remarks," Orlando Sentinal, June 20, 2006)

Sharp James, the Mayor of Newark New Jersey was seeking relection in 2002. He described his lighter skinned black opponent as the "Faggot White Boy". Apparently this was socially acceptable because he was elected back into office by the majority-black electorate (Deroy Murdock, "Dems Need to Houseclean," National Review Online, Jan. 6, 2003).

The aforementioned, "racial etiquette" has been instilled in whites since they were children. They also have been indoctrinated with anti-white sentiment and "white guilt" from day one. Whereas non-whites are taught to "embrace" their racial, cultural, and ethnic identities. This is a big factor in forming homogeneous groups.

It's the fucking Irish's fault. They need to pack up their whiskey stained asses and get the fuck out of America.

Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq says

It's the fucking Irish's fault.

Let's send all of the inferior ungrateful Europeans who aren't white anglo saxon protestants, back to where they belong.

Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq says

It's the fucking Irish's fault. They need to pack up their whiskey stained asses and get the fuck out of America.

But we don't want the Irish!

Aw, hell...everybody.

See, Jeremy works in a fine establishment which is color blind. He works with all races, nationalities, colors and creeds. No one gets "special treatment" - apparently it works, and everyone gets along just fine.

The key is to give no one preferential treatment. People are allowed to rise to the limit of their abliity

Free at last, free at last, thank god almighty, I'm free at last.

I had a dream where we all sat the same table of social services, and argued over who was the most minority oppressed.

Honest Abe says

See, Jeremy works in a fine establishment which is color blind. He works with all races, nationalities, colors and creeds. No one gets "special treatment" - apparently it works, and everyone gets along just fine.

And that's so rare in the US. If it weren't for those crazy liberals you could probably see this almost anywhere, at least in urban areas where the populations are diverse.

Just kidding. We have that all over the place. Abe obviously lives in some hyper monochrome racist city where people don't even know what actually already happens in the big city.

And Abe doesn't know that people who are truly "color blind" or close to it, don't say so over and over. In fact, that's something that only someone with some serious race issues would say. Abe, in some future life, you will be color blind, when you are very rarely talking or thinking about race.

"The State is the great fiction where everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else".

Nomograph says

Once again, a partial list of organizations dedicated to the advancement of white folk:

* American Third Position Party, is an American political party which promotes white supremacism. It was founded in 2010, and defines its principal mission as representing the political interests of white Americans.

* American Nazi Party, is a neo-Nazi organization based largely upon the ideals and policies of Adolf Hitler's NSDAP in Germany during the Third Reich but claims that it is in conformance with the Constitutional principles of the U.S.'s Founding Fathers. It also supports Holocaust denial.

* Aryan Nations, is a white supremacist neo-Nazi organization founded in the 1970s by Richard Girnt Butler as an arm of the Christian Identity group known as the Church of Jesus Christ-Christian.

Didn't we already go through this?

Scagnetti says

Nomograph's argument is transparent here. Every group he named, is or has been labeled as a white supremacist or "hate" group. He is attempting to label all white groups who are racially solidified as racist. There are black supremacist groups too such as.....

-Nation of Islam
-New Black Panther Party
-United Nuwaubian Nation of Moors
-Tribu Ka
-Nation of Yahweh
-Bobo Shanti
etc. etc.

This does not mean that all black groups are racist. Nor is Nomograph suggesting this. He is saying that....

Nomograph says

The world is filled with double, triple, quadruple, and higher order standards. Many of these multiple standards have evolved or were created for very good reasons.

Scagnetti says

Many of these multiple standards have evolved or were created for very good reasons huh? Since the context of this thread is whites, you must be preaching that whites SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED to form a group for good reasons. What are these reasons?

Remember what I said before?

Scagnetti says

It's possible to organize a fellowship of all whites promoting the advancement of "white people". You need to be ready to be called a "racist","nazi", "kkk member" etc. etc. See below......

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Tony Manero says

Isn't this what the klan and the militia movement and, lately, the teabaggers were all about?

The anti-white figureheads, pundits, and parrots will come out in force to discredit a group like that any way possible. The most common tactic would be to call the group "racist". It doesn't matter if anything they say is true or not, what matters is the label.

Scagnetti says

It looks like Nomograph has degenerated to the point where he will insinuate that any racially conscious white group is racist, just like I said would happen above. Am I a psychic or do you think this type of illogical reasoning has been used before?

marcus says

If calmly observing that you are a racist idiot is what you call an emotional meltdown then okay.

I would gladly post my SAT scores on here to compare to yours....but you probably would just say I scored higher because of socioeconomic factors!

marcus says

But hey, I'm just a teacher, what would I know.

Exactly!

"Those that can - do. Those that can't - teach!" H.L. Mencken

Scagnetti says

I would gladly post my SAT scores on here to compare to yours

I don't need to see your SAT scores to know your intelligence. And besides, what we are talking about here in part is about irrational emotions.

Scagnetti says

"Those that can - do. Those that can't - teach!"

That quote doesn't bother me. Mencken didn't teach, and obviously was more successful out in the world than in school. Or maybe he was just too self involved to consider teaching(obviously he could have taught some writing classes if he had wanted to. But was successful writing - without teaching - which may be the genesis of the thoughts behind the quote). So?

I've done other things besides teach, and probably will again. I didn't used to have all that much respect for teachers, and I still don't have all that much respect for some of them. I can tell you this though. Until you do it, you have no idea what it's like. That is the challenges, and the difficulties, but also truly enjoyable parts of it.

marcus says

And besides, what we are talking about here in part is about irrational emotions.

Tell me more about your irrational emotions. I may be able to help you.

marcus says

marcus says

Why would your default belief NOT be that those differences are due to socioeconomic reasons rather than race? And why would you not require proof to believe otherwise ?

marcus says

marcus says

marcus says

Why would your default belief NOT be that those differences are due to socioeconomic reasons rather than race? And why would you not require proof to believe otherwise ?

OK, I'll bite. Here is a quote from the leftist NYTimes...

"It is common knowledge that a person's appearance -- height, hair color, skin color, and eye color -- are determined by genes. MENTAL ABILITIES AND NATURAL TALENTS ARE ALSO AFFECTED BY HEREDITY, as is the susceptibility to acquire certain diseases." http://health.nytimes.com/health/guides/specialtopic/genetics/overview.html

Marcus, I could post all day on studies, experiments, tests, etc. about this topic. Is that what you want me to do? Remember, last time you couldn't control your "irrational emotions" because I challenged your assumptions with evidence that was unpleasant to your eyes. I think this way because it is logical. All I ask for is an open mind. You ask for blind faith!

I answered yours, now answer mine.

Scagnetti says

Did you know that the VAST majority of world class sprinters are from African descent? Why is that? Are you going to argue that whites can overcome this deficiency within a few generations with proper training, equal opportunity, and a different culture? Or do you think blacks' dominance in sprinting is just raw innate talent?

P.S. ~ I like how the quote stated, "It is common knowledge". HA! As my grandmother used to say, "Common knowledge isn't so common anymore!"

P.P.S. ~ I already acknowledged socioeconomic condition as a FACTOR so don't go trying to put words in my mouth again.

Scagnetti says

I answered yours, now answer mine.

Scagnetti says

Did you know that the VAST majority of world class sprinters are from African descent? Why is that? Are you going to argue that whites can overcome this deficiency within a few generations with proper training, equal opportunity, and a different culture? Or do you think blacks' dominance in sprinting is just raw innate talent?

What's wrong Marcus? Tongue tied?

marcus says

But hey, I'm just a teacher, what would I know.

I'm starting to think that you teach at bartending school!

Folks like Marcus have so much emotional capital invested in their idea that, "all people are created exactly the same", that all critiques of their assumptions are intolerable! It is a proven fact that lots of traits are genetic. Environmental and social factors only go so far. It is SO EASY to point out these obvious things, that any attempt to do so will be countered with the accusation of racism! Just like Marcus and his cronies have done to me all along! Watch him do it again, he can't resist!

Scagnetti says

Folks like Marcus have so much emotional capital invested in their idea that,"all people are created exactly the same"

This is proof of what a dim bulb you are.

I say that AVERAGE under-performance of millions of african americans or latino on SATs are attributable to socioeconomic reasons (ie these groups are disproportionately low income).

And from that he wants to regurgitate some white supremacist talking point that I said every individual is identical.

marcus says

Scagnetti says

Folks like Marcus have so much emotional capital invested in their idea that,"all people are created exactly the same"

This is proof of what a dim bulb you are.

I say that AVERAGE under-performance of millions of african americans or latino on SATs are attributable to socioeconomic reasons (ie these groups are disproportionately low income).

And from that he wants to regurgitate some white supremacist talking point that I said every individual is identical.

Thanks for proving my point! You did exactly what I said you'd do. You can't refute my facts! Nor can you prove your theory! You can only call me a racist. I bet you don't answer my previous question! Are you losing control of your "irrational emotions" again?

Once again....

Scagnetti says

Folks like Marcus have so much emotional capital invested in their idea that, "all people are created exactly the same", that all critiques of their assumptions are intolerable! It is a proven fact that lots of traits are genetic. Environmental and social factors only go so far. It is SO EASY to point out these obvious things, that any attempt to do so will be countered with the accusation of racism! Just like Marcus and his cronies have done to me all along! Watch him do it again, he can't resist!

marcus says

I say that AVERAGE under-performance of millions of african americans or latino on SATs are attributable to socioeconomic reasons (ie these groups are disproportionately low income).

And from that he wants to regurgitate some white supremacist talking point that I said every individual is identical.

Scagnetti says

You can't refute my facts!

Great response. Good to know you even comprehend what I said, just now or before.

I think nomo gave that list before so you could find a friendly environment for you ignorance and hate.

marcus says

Scagnetti says

You can't refute my facts!

Great response. Good to know you even comprehend what I said, just now or before.

You've lost the debate Marcus! Stop taking my comments out of context. You also have lost control of your "irrational emotions" again. You had the perfect opportunity to prove that the achievement gap could be overcome within a couple of generations like you said. You couldn't do it. You know why? Because its never been done. Once again, you've lost. You made large claims and could not back them up with proof. End of story!

Further our brilliant white supremacist uses this BS "logic."

If attributes can be genetic therefore they are ? For an entire race none the less. You don't even have the intellectual capacity to realize you are believing what you want to believe.

I'll break this down for you once, then I'm done.

Here is your supposed logic.

1) Average performance of millions of african american and latino students are well below average white and asian scores. Even when looked at by family income (to a lessor degree).

(but middle class latino and african american students even in middle class famiies are likely to be only recently middle class and are not part of the same socio economic culture as white or asian families).

2) You note that the best sprinters in the world are disproportionately african. Therefore youconclude that attributes can be genetic by race on average.

3) Putting these together you therefore conclude unequivacly that socioecononomic reasons are not enough to account for the differences in SAT scores by race.

I could say that mentally retarded people say stupid things. You say stupid things. Therefore you are mentally retarded.

But if I did this, my logic would be faulty.

Still, you are a racist idiot.

marcus says

marcus says

Why would your default belief NOT be that those differences are due to socioeconomic reasons rather than race? And why would you not require proof to believe otherwise ?

My whole argument is based on the fact that I shouldn't have to prove that it's socioeconomic.

marcus says

marcus says

Why would your default belief NOT be that those differences are due to socioeconomic reasons rather than race? And why would you not require proof to believe otherwise ?

Only a white supremacist who is afraid of his own shadow would fear giving other races a chance to compete, and would want to use lies and faulty bs reasoning to keep them down and apart.

Why are you deleted and reposting comments Marcus? You're games are childish! I repeat....

Scagnetti says

You've lost the debate Marcus! Stop taking my comments out of context. You also have lost control of your "irrational emotions" again. You had the perfect opportunity to prove that the achievement gap could be overcome within a couple of generations like you said. You couldn't do it. You know why? Because its never been done. Once again, you've lost. You made large claims and could not back them up with proof. End of story!

My, oh my, Marcus. Seems as if your the one filled with hate. I suggest you get some help for that!

See what I said would happen.....

Scagnetti says

Folks like Marcus have so much emotional capital invested in their idea that, "all people are created exactly the same", that all critiques of their assumptions are intolerable! It is a proven fact that lots of traits are genetic. Environmental and social factors only go so far. It is SO EASY to point out these obvious things, that any attempt to do so will be countered with the accusation of racism! Just like Marcus and his cronies have done to me all along! Watch him do it again, he can't resist!

Marcus never had an argument! He made big claims, but couldn't prove them! His strategy the whole time has been to call me a racist! I repeat....HE NEVER HAD AN ARGUMENT, JUST LIES!

Hey, folks, don't look now, but I do believe RayAmerica is back. With an "argument" that goes something like this.

Since many of the best sprinters in the world are African (note: we don't know about the average African's sprinting skills - just that disproportionately many of the best ones are world class).

In any case, since this is true, Scagnetti concludes that this is actually somehow logical proof that gaps in test score averages (of millions of students) by race must be attributed not only to socioeconomic differnces, but also to race. (code for blacks and latinos are genetically inferior at least with respect to competing academically or in the work place).

He doesn't have the ability to comprehend that he hasn't proven anything, and then wants to say that since I can't prove him wrong, "he wins," whatever that means.

Wtf?

MY position is still that only a racist scumbag would have as their default position that the differences (in averages SAT scores by race) are attributable to anything other than socioeconomic factors. And no I really am not saying that all individuals are identical.

Stop persecuting me Marcus because I want Whites and Asians to have equal opportunity! What I said is affirmative action is wrong. I proved that the program was discriminating against Whites and Asians using college admissions as an example. I don't think a White Supremacist would be Pro-Asian would they? It's called wanting a meritocracy! Then you belch your anti-white hate speech which is uncalled for.

You made the claim that the achievement gap can be overcome within a couple of generations. I said okay, prove it. Prove yourself right Marcus. At least then we should know how long it will take to get rid of this STATE SPONSORED RACISM AND SEXISM! If it is never overcome, how long do you want to discriminate against Whites? Forever? Seriously man, stop the anti-white hate speech!

Oh, by the way, I also said blacks dominate in lots of athletics. The rules are set and unchanging in sports for the most part and there is no doubt who is the best. Blacks without question excel in sports. I think that's great, they should be OVERLY-represented here then because of merit. It is called seeing things as they are. I guess you could conclude that I am for black supremacy too since I acknowledge there dominance in lots of sports huh? You are filled with hate Marcus! You need to get some help!

Scagnetti says

Stop persecuting me Marcus because I want Whites and Asians to have equal opportunity!

much earlier he said:

Scagnetti says

Did you know that the VAST majority of world class sprinters are from African descent? Why is that? Are you going to argue that whites can overcome this deficiency within a few generations with proper training, equal opportunity, and a different culture? Or do you think blacks' dominance in sprinting is just raw innate talent?

The NFL is mostly black and so is the NBA and no one utters a word. Blacks' dominance in these sports is realized. The second you post some SAT scores that show Whites and Asians come out on top, LOOK OUT, Marcus and the bunch that think like him will demonize you. Does anyone see a double standard here? That its ok to be pro-black, pro-hispanic, pro-anything, EXCEPT pro-white?

Right, lets just ignore that these groups are disproportionately poor and draw some racist conclusions.

marcus says

Hey, folks, don't look now, but I do believe RayAmerica is back. With an "argument" that goes something like this.

He is making more sense than you.

Scagnetti says

You made the claim that the achievement gap can be overcome within a couple of generations.

Actually that was taken out of context. I don't expect us to get it together in a few short generations. We have always had an underclass. Unfortunately, the current underclass looks more different than previous ones, and their timing isn't great since we seem to be in decline and moving rapidly towards a fascist corporatist state.

Put differently, it's harder to move up to the middle class now than it was 30 or 60 years ago.

marcus says

Scagnetti says

Did you know that the VAST majority of world class sprinters are from African descent? Why is that? Are you going to argue that whites can overcome this deficiency within a few generations with proper training, equal opportunity, and a different culture? Or do you think blacks' dominance in sprinting is just raw innate talent?

The NFL is mostly black and so is the NBA and no one utters a word. Blacks' dominance in these sports is realized. The second you post some SAT scores that show Whites and Asians come out on top, LOOK OUT, Marcus and the bunch that think like him will demonize you. Does anyone see a double standard here? That its ok to be pro-black, pro-hispanic, pro-anything, EXCEPT pro-white?

Thanks for proving my point again! I acknowledged that blacks were dominant in many sports. That's true. Whites and Asians come out on top in SAT scores. That's true. Are you saying it's wrong to recognize reality!? Are you saying Whites and Asians need some kind of affirmative action program for sports? That's funny Marcus! Are you saying Whites and Asians are worse at certain sports because of their socioeconomic position? HA!

You have proved the double standard I was talking about. Thanks again! The double standard is it's not ok for Whites to have any racial pride at all. Other groups can be pro-black, pro-hispanic, pro-anything, except pro-White. I show one area where Whites succeed and again you have an "emotional meltdown" just like before! Tell us how you really feel about Whites Marcus?

Now you're trying to quiet me by shouting me down. ITS NOT GOING TO WORK! Do you think you're being seen as anti-White here? Or maybe seen as the typical angry black man? Your vulgar insults that were spewed from your diarrhea of the mouth are revolting. I will say again, your accusations and labels of me are an attempt to silence debate! My ideas and beliefs aren't always politically correct, but your personal attacks are extremely offensive! I'm a reasonable person, and can be convinced otherwise, but not like that!

Your logic is truly dizzying! I really don't understand your argument at all. You said you took a position on purpose that couldn't be proven!??! Ooooookaaaaay. That was dumb of you. Once again, you said standardized testing performance is based in the familys income. I showed regardless of income there is a racial gap. You then said that it is because they haven't been "middle class" long enough, but within a couple of generations, this barrier would be overcome. I said prove it. You couldn't because it hasn't been done yet and no one knows if it ever will. That's all folks! So because you suck at making an argument, and can't prove your thesis, you start calling me a racist. Yes, I believe traits are hereditary. So what, its a proven fact. Get over it. Stop blaming society for all your failures!

Scagnetti says

Thanks for proving my point again

Thank you for proving mine.

Holy shit, are you racists still prattling on about this?

Get a job.

Kevin says

Holy shit, are you racists still prattling on about this?
Get a job.

What would Andrew Breitbart say ?

I guess it would it be something like this..

"Show me one statement above that was racist comment?...
.... Just one ! "

How about it Kevin

Andrew Breitbart... What would Andrew Breitbart say... Whatever he would have said, about one week later we'd discover the unedited version where the original statement actually meant exactly the opposite. Weird of you to reference Andrew Breitbart...

Thomas... One thing I'll say for you, you're like rubber. Nothing anyone says sticks. This is not meant as a compliment.

Scagnetti... Please stop using animated gifs. They're not that witty and are pretty annoying when trying to skim-read. It's what 14 year olds did on 4chan in 2001 when trying to seem hip and risqué and a bit playful. Please stop.

Also:

I don't refute your study. I disagree with the viewpoint that STATE SPONSORED ANTI-WHITE PREJUDICE (affirmative action) is a good thing!

Then I have to say you don't understand it. And I ask you who you mean to indicate the 'good thing' is intended to be for? There's always winners and losers in every situation...

I tell you again that white males have reaped the benefits of the best of what this culture has to offer for so long that most of us cant even see it anymore, and any shift in the wind to the contrary is going to seem like a tilting against, i understand that about those who arent capable of grasping the concepts or have an active interest in maintaing a cushy status. Read my earlier analogy about the cyclists.

Let me tell you I have no problem with affirmative action at all. Because i beleive that in the long run it'll make our culture stronger and i like the idea that I'm not winning because of some invisible bias thats built into the system to support white male me. I like the idea that I'm more equally standing on my actual own two feet. Do you get that concept?

Like the musicians in the symphony study I posted. I bet you'll find that a few years on most musicians work a whole lot harder to get their postings, and certainly merit and praise will be parceled out on a more honest basis. Certainly derision will be parceled out more honestly.

The one thing I do ask of affirmative action is equal accountability for fuck ups, and I'll fight for that. Accountability is unbelievably important in making things like this work.

Do you understand the separation of those two concepts?