patrick.net

My whole argument is based on the fact that I shouldn't have to prove that it's socioeconomic.

marcus says

marcus says

Why would your default belief NOT be that those differences are due to socioeconomic reasons rather than race? And why would you not require proof to believe otherwise ?

Only a white supremacist who is afraid of his own shadow would fear giving other races a chance to compete, and would want to use lies and faulty bs reasoning to keep them down and apart.

Why are you deleted and reposting comments Marcus? You're games are childish! I repeat....

Scagnetti says

You've lost the debate Marcus! Stop taking my comments out of context. You also have lost control of your "irrational emotions" again. You had the perfect opportunity to prove that the achievement gap could be overcome within a couple of generations like you said. You couldn't do it. You know why? Because its never been done. Once again, you've lost. You made large claims and could not back them up with proof. End of story!

My, oh my, Marcus. Seems as if your the one filled with hate. I suggest you get some help for that!

See what I said would happen.....

Scagnetti says

Folks like Marcus have so much emotional capital invested in their idea that, "all people are created exactly the same", that all critiques of their assumptions are intolerable! It is a proven fact that lots of traits are genetic. Environmental and social factors only go so far. It is SO EASY to point out these obvious things, that any attempt to do so will be countered with the accusation of racism! Just like Marcus and his cronies have done to me all along! Watch him do it again, he can't resist!

Marcus never had an argument! He made big claims, but couldn't prove them! His strategy the whole time has been to call me a racist! I repeat....HE NEVER HAD AN ARGUMENT, JUST LIES!

Hey, folks, don't look now, but I do believe RayAmerica is back. With an "argument" that goes something like this.

Since many of the best sprinters in the world are African (note: we don't know about the average African's sprinting skills - just that disproportionately many of the best ones are world class).

In any case, since this is true, Scagnetti concludes that this is actually somehow logical proof that gaps in test score averages (of millions of students) by race must be attributed not only to socioeconomic differnces, but also to race. (code for blacks and latinos are genetically inferior at least with respect to competing academically or in the work place).

He doesn't have the ability to comprehend that he hasn't proven anything, and then wants to say that since I can't prove him wrong, "he wins," whatever that means.

Wtf?

MY position is still that only a racist scumbag would have as their default position that the differences (in averages SAT scores by race) are attributable to anything other than socioeconomic factors. And no I really am not saying that all individuals are identical.

Stop persecuting me Marcus because I want Whites and Asians to have equal opportunity! What I said is affirmative action is wrong. I proved that the program was discriminating against Whites and Asians using college admissions as an example. I don't think a White Supremacist would be Pro-Asian would they? It's called wanting a meritocracy! Then you belch your anti-white hate speech which is uncalled for.

You made the claim that the achievement gap can be overcome within a couple of generations. I said okay, prove it. Prove yourself right Marcus. At least then we should know how long it will take to get rid of this STATE SPONSORED RACISM AND SEXISM! If it is never overcome, how long do you want to discriminate against Whites? Forever? Seriously man, stop the anti-white hate speech!

Oh, by the way, I also said blacks dominate in lots of athletics. The rules are set and unchanging in sports for the most part and there is no doubt who is the best. Blacks without question excel in sports. I think that's great, they should be OVERLY-represented here then because of merit. It is called seeing things as they are. I guess you could conclude that I am for black supremacy too since I acknowledge there dominance in lots of sports huh? You are filled with hate Marcus! You need to get some help!

Scagnetti says

Stop persecuting me Marcus because I want Whites and Asians to have equal opportunity!

much earlier he said:

Scagnetti says

Did you know that the VAST majority of world class sprinters are from African descent? Why is that? Are you going to argue that whites can overcome this deficiency within a few generations with proper training, equal opportunity, and a different culture? Or do you think blacks' dominance in sprinting is just raw innate talent?

The NFL is mostly black and so is the NBA and no one utters a word. Blacks' dominance in these sports is realized. The second you post some SAT scores that show Whites and Asians come out on top, LOOK OUT, Marcus and the bunch that think like him will demonize you. Does anyone see a double standard here? That its ok to be pro-black, pro-hispanic, pro-anything, EXCEPT pro-white?

Right, lets just ignore that these groups are disproportionately poor and draw some racist conclusions.

marcus says

Hey, folks, don't look now, but I do believe RayAmerica is back. With an "argument" that goes something like this.

He is making more sense than you.

Scagnetti says

You made the claim that the achievement gap can be overcome within a couple of generations.

Actually that was taken out of context. I don't expect us to get it together in a few short generations. We have always had an underclass. Unfortunately, the current underclass looks more different than previous ones, and their timing isn't great since we seem to be in decline and moving rapidly towards a fascist corporatist state.

Put differently, it's harder to move up to the middle class now than it was 30 or 60 years ago.

marcus says

Scagnetti says

Did you know that the VAST majority of world class sprinters are from African descent? Why is that? Are you going to argue that whites can overcome this deficiency within a few generations with proper training, equal opportunity, and a different culture? Or do you think blacks' dominance in sprinting is just raw innate talent?

The NFL is mostly black and so is the NBA and no one utters a word. Blacks' dominance in these sports is realized. The second you post some SAT scores that show Whites and Asians come out on top, LOOK OUT, Marcus and the bunch that think like him will demonize you. Does anyone see a double standard here? That its ok to be pro-black, pro-hispanic, pro-anything, EXCEPT pro-white?

Thanks for proving my point again! I acknowledged that blacks were dominant in many sports. That's true. Whites and Asians come out on top in SAT scores. That's true. Are you saying it's wrong to recognize reality!? Are you saying Whites and Asians need some kind of affirmative action program for sports? That's funny Marcus! Are you saying Whites and Asians are worse at certain sports because of their socioeconomic position? HA!

You have proved the double standard I was talking about. Thanks again! The double standard is it's not ok for Whites to have any racial pride at all. Other groups can be pro-black, pro-hispanic, pro-anything, except pro-White. I show one area where Whites succeed and again you have an "emotional meltdown" just like before! Tell us how you really feel about Whites Marcus?

Now you're trying to quiet me by shouting me down. ITS NOT GOING TO WORK! Do you think you're being seen as anti-White here? Or maybe seen as the typical angry black man? Your vulgar insults that were spewed from your diarrhea of the mouth are revolting. I will say again, your accusations and labels of me are an attempt to silence debate! My ideas and beliefs aren't always politically correct, but your personal attacks are extremely offensive! I'm a reasonable person, and can be convinced otherwise, but not like that!

Your logic is truly dizzying! I really don't understand your argument at all. You said you took a position on purpose that couldn't be proven!??! Ooooookaaaaay. That was dumb of you. Once again, you said standardized testing performance is based in the familys income. I showed regardless of income there is a racial gap. You then said that it is because they haven't been "middle class" long enough, but within a couple of generations, this barrier would be overcome. I said prove it. You couldn't because it hasn't been done yet and no one knows if it ever will. That's all folks! So because you suck at making an argument, and can't prove your thesis, you start calling me a racist. Yes, I believe traits are hereditary. So what, its a proven fact. Get over it. Stop blaming society for all your failures!

Scagnetti says

Thanks for proving my point again

Thank you for proving mine.

Holy shit, are you racists still prattling on about this?

Get a job.

Kevin says

Holy shit, are you racists still prattling on about this?
Get a job.

What would Andrew Breitbart say ?

I guess it would it be something like this..

"Show me one statement above that was racist comment?...
.... Just one ! "

How about it Kevin

Andrew Breitbart... What would Andrew Breitbart say... Whatever he would have said, about one week later we'd discover the unedited version where the original statement actually meant exactly the opposite. Weird of you to reference Andrew Breitbart...

Thomas... One thing I'll say for you, you're like rubber. Nothing anyone says sticks. This is not meant as a compliment.

Scagnetti... Please stop using animated gifs. They're not that witty and are pretty annoying when trying to skim-read. It's what 14 year olds did on 4chan in 2001 when trying to seem hip and risqué and a bit playful. Please stop.

Also:

I don't refute your study. I disagree with the viewpoint that STATE SPONSORED ANTI-WHITE PREJUDICE (affirmative action) is a good thing!

Then I have to say you don't understand it. And I ask you who you mean to indicate the 'good thing' is intended to be for? There's always winners and losers in every situation...

I tell you again that white males have reaped the benefits of the best of what this culture has to offer for so long that most of us cant even see it anymore, and any shift in the wind to the contrary is going to seem like a tilting against, i understand that about those who arent capable of grasping the concepts or have an active interest in maintaing a cushy status. Read my earlier analogy about the cyclists.

Let me tell you I have no problem with affirmative action at all. Because i beleive that in the long run it'll make our culture stronger and i like the idea that I'm not winning because of some invisible bias thats built into the system to support white male me. I like the idea that I'm more equally standing on my actual own two feet. Do you get that concept?

Like the musicians in the symphony study I posted. I bet you'll find that a few years on most musicians work a whole lot harder to get their postings, and certainly merit and praise will be parceled out on a more honest basis. Certainly derision will be parceled out more honestly.

The one thing I do ask of affirmative action is equal accountability for fuck ups, and I'll fight for that. Accountability is unbelievably important in making things like this work.

Do you understand the separation of those two concepts?

kentm says

I tell you again that white males have reaped the benefits of the best of what this culture has to offer for so long that most of us cant even see it anymore, and any shift in the wind to the contrary is going to seem like a tilting against, i understand that about those who arent capable of grasping the concepts. Read my earlier analogy about the cyclists.

Are these white males alive or long dead..I am white and i have no idea what anyone reaped. The law that created affirmative action which impacts many was made long before many here were born and may well impact their children and grand children.

Its been over 50 years and you wish to shackle the rest of the population on this matter. If we question it, we are racists.

thomas.wong1986 says

If we question it, we are racists.

No, but if you say stuff like this you are racists.

Scagnetti says

Did you know that the VAST majority of world class sprinters are from African descent? Why is that? Are you going to argue that whites can overcome this deficiency within a few generations with proper training, equal opportunity, and a different culture? Or do you think blacks' dominance in sprinting is just raw innate talent?

The NFL is mostly black and so is the NBA and no one utters a word. Blacks' dominance in these sports is realized. The second you post some SAT scores that show Whites and Asians come out on top, LOOK OUT, Marcus and the bunch that think like him will demonize you. Does anyone see a double standard here? That its ok to be pro-black, pro-hispanic, pro-anything, EXCEPT pro-white?

thomas.wong1986 says

The law that created affirmative action which impacts many

I would argue that it's part of our culture by now to move things in this direction, and efforts are made to hire (or admit to colleges) a diverse mix of employees or students. That is, ethnicity or gender can be a factor in hiring or admittance if a group is under-represented. At this point it is done for reasons that transcend affirmative action laws. It's now just part of our culture, a part that even most conservatives embrace.

So honestly, I really don't even know what the big debate is here.

marcus says

No, but if you say stuff like this you are racists.

no, thats not racism not by far and your not seeing your own double standard.

thomas.wong1986 says

I am white

okay, I gotta ask: why is your log in name "thomas.wong1986" if you're white?

kentm says

okay, I gotta ask: why is your log in name "thomas.wong1986" if you're white?

what does a log in name have to do with my race ?
Maybe "Wong" is short for Wongstein, Wongenski, or maybe Wongucci.

oh dude, come on...

Honestly, I think you were MADE to troll this thread.

And frankly you look more and more ridiculous as you do so.

Scagnetti, Thomis Wong, & Jeremy - its pretty clear to see who the racists are on this site, isn't it?

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/driven/janitor-turned-owner-rescues-failing-ohio-factory-195149281.html

Here's a link to a story of a janitor turned owner. Its a very inspirational story, a story of the real American Dream. You'll notice NO affirimative action, NO preferential treatment, NO "leveling the playing field", NO race baiting, NO Al Sharpton demonstrations, NO rabble rousing, NO liberal mentality, NO forced equality of results, and NO government handouts.

See you whiney liberals, people of all colors CAN succeed. Without your're dimwitted government mandated, busybody interventionism.

Ah, a single heartwarming success story. Great, well that makes everything all better and clearly invalidates studies and historical precedence...

You possibly realize this is the equivalent of the "it's snowing somewhere so global warming is crap" argument, right?

That's it, I give up. When the discussion drops to that level it's a waste of effort.

Gotta love "identity politics." It's great for the top 0.1% who own our labor.

kentm says

oh dude, come on...
Honestly, I think you were MADE to troll this thread.
And frankly you look more and more ridiculous as you do so.

So now that Im no longer viewed as an Asian, im now a troll.
Now you can throw all your insults becuase im white now...
But before you dare not because you thought I was Asian.
Racism anyone !

kentm says

Ah, a single heartwarming success story. Great, well that makes everything all better and clearly invalidates studies and historical precedence...
You possibly realize this is the equivalent of the "it's snowing somewhere so global warming is crap" argument, right?
That's it, I give up. When the discussion drops to that level it's a waste of effort.

I suggest you drive down to "Little Siagon" in San Jose and see the many sucess stories of small business that started and grew by the Vietnamese immigrants over the past 30 years. Their children today work in many other fields from Medical, Technology, Law, CPAs, and other careers. They contributed to the success of Silicon Valley.

Its funny that Liberals never walk into places like Little Siagon, which is heavy Republican base.. their motto..God, Family Country.. they all believe in self reliance and growing to succed.

thomas.wong1986 says

So now that Im no longer viewed as an Asian, im now a troll.
Now you can throw all your insults becuase im white now...
But before you dare not because you thought I was Asian.
Racism anyone !

Sigh. I have no care whatsoever what you are, I honestly couldn't care less. What I care about is what you write... Ive told you before i think youre a fool and a troll, like back in the day when you were arguing in support of prop 14, and the recent couple of exchanges haven't changed a thing for me. If it helps you in some way to imagine otherwise then go right ahead.

Though I see now there are clearly some issues with you around race which I hadn't realized before and are kind of interesting, but I suppose I'll never find out.

At any rate I've called you a troll because I think you're being disingenuous in your arguments & coy hints of personal info and are so far off missing every point of every argument put to you that I can only think you're fucking with us because judging by the way you write you don't really seem to be that stupid.

Cheers.

Like Prop 13, not 14 .. you just get it all wrong.

thomas.wong1986 says

Quote

Anyone who claims that white people are marginalized is a racist. Period.

Kevin says

Anyone who claims that white people are marginalized is a racist. Period.

Why?

thomas.wong1986 says

Like Prop 13, not 14 .. you just get it all wrong.

Oh dear, the crushing weight of your argument has won the day... you sure showed me up. Okay, THAT is an example of why I think of you as a troll. So with that reply, in addition to thinking of you as a fool and a troll I now think of you as probably being about a 14 year old boy.

Here's an article for you on my way out: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/06/minority-students-education-study_n_1322594.html

But you won't get it, won't read it, and will respond with a reply that goes something like this: "but a black man somewhere won a poker game, so this proves everything you post is wrong, and liberals suck, and they never do anything good. Sneer."

In closing, as a method of entry into understanding the world of the thought process from which that article was written, and from which many of the comments you argue against, mine included, without ever really understanding are based in I give you this clue: it's not who wins, it's who looses. And why.

Bye

kentm says

Here's an article for you on my way out: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/06/minority-students-education-study_n_1322594.html

I want you to explain to me why your affraid of going to places like Little Siagon and talking to or even getting to know some of the Vietnamese immagrants who came to the US, and why they have become so successfull ?

"Civil rights advocates expect this data, collected during the 2009-10 school year, will provide new ammunition for compliance reviews, advocacy and lawsuits involving educational fairness in America."

Who are you going to sue ?

kentm says

it's not who wins, it's who looses. And why.

The policies based on quotas which you favor discourage anyone "winning" based on their ability and personal drive. Like the Fireman's lawsuit in the video above, you cannot win because it does not meet the racial quota.

Kevin says

Anyone who claims that white people are marginalized is a racist. Period.

Was this before when YOU thought I was Asian or after
when I said I could be white ? Which is it ?

thomas.wong1986 says

I want you to explain to me why your affraid of going to places like Little Siagon and talking to or even getting to know some of the Vietnamese immagrants who came to the US, and why they have become so successfull ?

I have to correct my statements above. You just really sound like an idiot now.

kentm says

I have to correct my statements above. You just really sound like an idiot.

Who is the racist now!

At this point I also have to question if you really even understand what 'racism' means.

kentm says

At this point I also have to question if you really even understand what 'racism' means.

Racism today is hypocrisy.

kentm says

Also:

I don't refute your study. I disagree with the viewpoint that STATE SPONSORED ANTI-WHITE PREJUDICE (affirmative action) is a good thing!

Then I have to say you don't understand it. And I ask you who you mean to indicate the 'good thing' is intended to be for? There's always winners and losers in every situation...

Let me clarify....

I am all for "access" but our current system goes beyond "access" and into "discrimination".

I will use your own study as an example.

To prevent discrimination, some orchestra's started choosing their musicians by only listening to them, without seeing them. I think that's an excellent idea! For me, the problem is solved right there! The most competent people get the job. Race and gender aren't a factor, only competence.

Unfortunately that's not the system we have is it? Even in a system where the best candidates have BLINDLY been chosen, then we give a leg up to groups that are "underrepresented". That's bullshit and discrimination. The best person should get the job period!

P.S. ~ I changed my .gif for you. I agree, it was annoying when scrolling through all the comments.

marcus says

My whole argument is based on the fact that I shouldn't have to prove that it's socioeconomic.

Shouldn't or couldn't? If you can't prove it or at least show evidence, why would any rational person believe you? You want people to just "Take your word for it"?