patrick.net

TPB says

What do you think History will have to say about Obama,

History probably would not view it well, but not as bad as first instituting the the Patriot Act in the first place.

TPB says

if the next administration takes Patriot Act even a step further, to where we have Gustopos like the KGB rounding folks like you and I up, for even posting in this thread?

And, this would probably be viewed by History even worse than the writing of the Act in the first place.

The question here would be, who is more likely to take the Patriot Act further?

TPB says

But how can we not blame a Current Liberal administration for NOT abolishing the Patriot Act and much of its ominous consequences?

I do blame Obama for the Patriot Act. I just also blame Republicans because far more of them than Democrats voted for that act. And the vast majority of those who voted against the evil Patriot Act were Democrats and Independents.

As for Obama, I never supported him because he voted to extend the Patriot while he was a senator. I also didn't support Hilary because as senator she voted for the Patriot Act. But are you telling me that Santorum, Newt, or Romney are against the Patriot Act? Ron Paul is the only Republican candidate who is against that act and the Republicans have always broadsided him.

TPB says

What do you think History will have to say about Obama, if the next administration takes Patriot Act even a step further, to where we have Gustopos like the KGB rounding folks like you and I up, for even posting in this thread?

That is the nightmare scenario that those of us against the Patriot Act, the NDAA, the TSA and all other forms of executive unchecked power and human rights abuse have.

In the short term, tyrants are always portrayed in a positive light. In the long run, Bush and Obama will go down as the axis of evil.

leoj707 says

The question here would be, who is more likely to take the Patriot Act further?

And unfortunately I can't say that Obama won't, especially in a second term when he doesn't have to worry about re-election.

And unfortunately our press is composed of incompetent idiots who completely ignore these issues including the recent announcement that due process does not mean judicial process. Due process now means whatever the government wants to do.

Dan8267 says

And unfortunately I can't say that Obama won't, especially in a second term when he doesn't have to worry about re-election.

Yeah, that is why I did not phrase it as a rhetorical question.

That said, I think that given their history a Democrat President -- with the propensity to do nothing other than maintain the status quo -- is less likely to push the Patriot Act to the nightmare scenario.

Dan8267 says

In the long run, Bush and Obama will go down as the axis of evil.

I think in the long run whoever actually enacts the nightmare scenario will be the one viewed as the major player in the axis of evil. Bush will just be the guy that got the ball rolling and Obama will be the one who stood by and did nothing.

What's so terrible about the Patriot Act? I really am ignorant about it.

I just know it's a "boogeyman" for the Left. Sort of like how "socialism" is a boogeyman on the Right.

leoj707 says

You say that like you actually believe that the government has not been bought and payed for by the richest 0.1%.

Government's been brought by PBS contributors, you know, the ones that sent in $60 to get the tote bag. It's not as innocent as supporting NOVA and Sesame Street like those liberals claim.

thunderlips11 says

leoj707 says

You say that like you actually believe that the government has not been bought and payed for by the richest 0.1%.

Government's been brought by PBS contributors, you know, the ones that sent in $60 to get the tote bag and support Sesame Street.

Homo Economicus. A Legendary Creature, like Bigfoot, claimed to exist by Pseudoscientists.

Ah, haha funny.

That's what those pledge drives are for. So ordinary people can buy the government and get a nice tote bag with Big Bird on it. ;-P

My only point is that none of the prior administrations had gone to the extreme level of evil that the current and past one did.

And I disagree. We've had internment camps, forced relocations, murder of student protestors, you name. it.

Yes, I think putting American citizens found on american soil in detention camps and murdering student protestors is worse than putting american citizens found on foreign soil and murdering people with links to terrorist organizations.

Therefore, you are incorrect in concluding that this level of evil is necessary to combat terrorism or ensure national security. Your statement is empirically false.

I don't believe I drew that conclusion. The conclusion I drew is that any President who is capable of obtaining the office would do it.

Kennedy and Eisenhower certainly would not. And as for Carter, not killing innocents hardly makes one a pussy.

That's a pretty bold assumption. Circumstances were radically different, and both of those men had plenty of guilt to take to their graves.

Then the Constitution shouldn't be suspended during this period of indefinite war.

Good thing it hasn't been, then.

I certainly believe that we've been stretching the limits of the constitution, but I also don't think it's up to anyone who's not on the Supreme Court to decide what's valid and what isn't. The constitution is only as strong as the will of the people to support it.

Gitmo,

Different from WWII internment camps in what way?

the suspension of Habeas Corpus,

The Civil War (and during reconstruction), WWII, and after the Oklahoma City Bombing.

government stating that assassination of U.S. citizens is legal are all new in American history.

I'll grant that one. They certainly never *said* it before.

And there you are wrong. There are no fewer than 1 million Americans who would have done a better and more ethical job than Obama, and that's an extremely conservative estimate.

And exactly zero of them have any chance of being President of the United States of America.

Except Ron Paul, Dennis Kucinich, and Ralph Nadar. And if people voted for these two instead of all the assholes, there would be more people like them in office.

Sorry, I should have said "any serious candidate". Nobody who says that they're NOT going to murder "terrorists" will not get elected President.

Electing people like Elizabeth Warren and William Black would help a lot too.

Not unless you can get a few hundred of them elected. You won't, though, because most Americans support people who want to kill brown folks.

And on that, we agree. Well, except that I don't believe "we're" respecting the Constitution on American soil.

I don't agree. While there has definitely been a lot of questionable activities (patriot act, wiretapping, etc.) so far I haven't seen anything that is clearly a violation of the constitution.

Now, I definitely believe that these activities *should* be a violation of the constitution, but I also believe that the constitution is fundamentally broken and we need a convention.

Patrick, I don't want to sound like a know it all. I like to learn, read, and expand myeslf. Perhaps thats why I talk about books so often.

I know you like to read too. Have you read Liberty Defined, of any of Dr. Ron Pauls books? Just aksin'

In life there are only successes or lessons.

Honest Abe says

In life there are only successes or lessons.

Yeah, but Abe based on your comments you are learning all the wrong lessons. Not every lesson leads to "truth".

Trestle, is the following a good description of what's really going on?

Trestle Rider says

The real truth is that the Teaparty and Occupy are very, very closely aligned in views, but the cavelcade of misinformation seeks to destroy the natural linkage that should have happened.

Yes, I agree with a lot of what started the teaparty to begin with...

However...

They lost me when they got co-opted by FOX "news".

Kevin says

And I disagree. We've had internment camps, forced relocations, murder of student protestors, you name. it.

The Japanese interment camps were bad and so was the Kent State massacre, but there's a big escalation when the government starts to premeditate about who it's going to kill. It's a whole new level of evil not seen since slavery.

Kevin says

is worse than putting american citizens found on foreign soil and murdering people with links to terrorist organizations.

First, don't consider yourself safe because you are on American soil. They can always move you off American soil or just ignore that constraint without legal ramification. Second, everyone including you is linked to a terrorist organization if some bureaucrat decides you are. All it takes for you personally to be consider a terrorist is some asshole in TSA putting your name on a list because he doesn't like you or some idiot making a typo while entering a social security number.

Kevin says

The conclusion I drew is that any President who is capable of obtaining the office would do it.

If that's true, our species is doomed.

Kevin says

Kennedy and Eisenhower certainly would not. And as for Carter, not killing innocents hardly makes one a pussy.

That's a pretty bold assumption. Circumstances were radically different, and both of those men had plenty of guilt to take to their graves.

Bolder than concluding that anyone capable of being elected would resort to torture and murder without rule of law? Kennedy and Eisenhower certainly weren't perfect, but they had a sense of ethics. And assassinating U.S. citizens without trial certainly is not consistent with their well-document public lives.

Kevin says

Then the Constitution shouldn't be suspended during this period of indefinite war.

Good thing it hasn't been, then.

Only if you accept the ridiculous premise that due process is a meaningless phrase that can be interpreted any way by a government official at his pleasure.

Kevin says

Gitmo,

Different from WWII internment camps in what way?

Torture

Kevin says

the suspension of Habeas Corpus,

The Civil War (and during reconstruction), WWII, and after the Oklahoma City Bombing.

Your point? Evil has existed in the past. Therefore, we should not attempt to stop evil or at least prevent it from increasing. After all, any harm that isn't unique is not worth fighting.

Kevin says

government stating that assassination of U.S. citizens is legal are all new in American history.

I'll grant that one. They certainly never *said* it before.

There's a huge difference in risk between a state in which some government officials break the law and don't get caught and a state where government officials cannot break the law because whatever they do is the law.

Kevin says

And exactly zero of them have any chance of being President of the United States of America.

And you calculated this how?

Kevin says

Sorry, I should have said "any serious candidate". Nobody who says that they're NOT going to murder "terrorists" will not get elected President.

You must think the American public is more cowardly than I do. Sure, 1/3rd of Americans are cowards who shit their pants at the site of a Muslim. But that leaves 2/3rds to vote more rationally. We're not all Republicans.

Kevin says

Electing people like Elizabeth Warren and William Black would help a lot too.

Not unless you can get a few hundred of them elected. You won't, though, because most Americans support people who want to kill brown folks.

A single, truly good presidency could change this country for the better as dramatically as the Bush/Obama reign have changed it for the worse.

Kevin says

And on that, we agree. Well, except that I don't believe "we're" respecting the Constitution on American soil.

I don't agree. While there has definitely been a lot of questionable activities (patriot act, wiretapping, etc.) so far I haven't seen anything that is clearly a violation of the constitution.

Then you and I have vastly different standards for upholding the Constitution. The warrantless recording of telephone conversations and Internet traffic of tens of millions if not hundreds of millions of U.S. citizens. The arrest of people video recording the police. The illegal mass arrest of hundreds of people for being in the same location. There are plenty of examples.

Kevin says

I also believe that the constitution is fundamentally broken and we need a convention.

On that we agree. The Constitution needs to be rewritten, but not by those in power now. It needs to be modernized to protect the public from all the abuses of government that have come into play over the past 100 years, and particularly over the past 12.

Honest Abe says

In life there are only successes or lessons.

Which is death?

Dan8267 says

All it takes for you personally to be consider a terrorist is some asshole in TSA putting your name on a list because he doesn't like you or some idiot making a typo while entering a social security number.

Yeah, haven't we already seen this with the no-fly list?

I think Dan8267 might be a terrorist. ;-)

Sorry Dan, you're still not going to convince me that Pre-Bush governments were meaningfully better than post-Bush. I think I provided plenty of evidence that almost all of the evils of the recent administrations are not new, and go all the way back to the founding of the republic. Torture, communication interception, and detention without charge all have a long and rich history.

It's absolutely true that these are evil things, but they're not new things, and the simple fact is that they will continue to happen as long as large percentages of the voting public approve of the tactics. When people finally decide that they want their rights back, people who won't do these things will get elected.

EJ dione recently wrote about the right wing's irrational feelings about Obama.

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2012/03/04/opinion/doc4f4e7dc2a0ce3998828291.txt

Read this, people on both sides of the fence need to be vigilant:

http://www.caseyresearch.com/articles/ascendence-sociopaths-us-governance?ppref=DLC420ED0312B

Definitely Abe! It matter not, which side of the coin you vote for, you'll still get the same coin. Liberty and Justice are both teetering on the edge now.

I would not decry 50 thousand people who are smart enough to know robotic government jobs make for stable employment though.

But yeah, you work for our government, and you learn to keep your mouth shut real quick. Some government employees still have unions, but those are being eradicated as we speak, funny, hitler did that as well. Actually, lol, he talked them all into one union first, then just got rid of the one.

marcus says

EJ dione recently wrote about the right wing's irrational feelings about Obama.

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles/2012/03/04/opinion/doc4f4e7dc2a0ce3998828291.txt

I don't see the right-wing as being exceptionally hateful towards Obama.

If I harken back to Clinton days when I was a Republican, some pretty vicious attacks and incessant harsh language were around then too. Everything Clinton did was about building a New World Order ending with black helicopters and ATF rounding up the righteous for reeducation camps. I'm ashamed to say I was hoodwinked by this stuff myself. I vividly recall now trying to explain to my misguided "libtard" friends how IMPORTANT it was to impeach Bill Clinton over his blowjob indiscretion, as it symbolized his lying nature and was a real crime because there was lying under oath & coverups going on. Oh for simpler times....

Obama being black and "foreignish" adds a lot of spice and kicks things up a notch or two is all. I'd add to that they are burned about being out of power after so long in power, it don't sit right. Much like Viserys in Game of Thrones the ONLY goal is bringing low The Pretender and the end justifies all means.

Viserys Targaryen: "We go home with an army. With Khal Drogo's army. I would let his whole tribe fuck you - all forty thousand men - and their horses too if that's what it took."

Kingshat says

35 - First President to Encourage Racial Discrimination and Intimidation at Polling Places

You left out

36 - Ordered Biden to do a drive-by on my house and killed my children. REVENGE!

Kingshat says

6 - The harassment of Gibson Guitars

oh! now he did it .. harassing my baby Les Paul Custom..

that will tick off all the metal heads !!!

Kingshat says

13 - America drops to 5th place in GLOBAL COMPETITIVENESS

You can blame the US public on that one.. they dont want to create US industries and jobs.. they want to occupy it!

They also dont want to see wealth creation, they want wealth redistribution.

Look, I get it if people want someone new. I have no particular love for Obama's administration. I'm at best indifferent.

But a lot of the criticisms of Obama just seem silly to me, like:

Kingshat says

2 - G.E sending 36000 Jobs Overseas,(Obama handpicked G.E. CEO to head his Jobs Committee)

Right...Obama started that trend. It didn't have anything to do with free trade policies (by BOTH parties) that started long before.

Kingshat says

8 - Soaring FOOD and GAS Prices

I think Uncle Ben carries more responsibility for that than Obama. Maybe Obama could have picked a new Fed chief?

Kingshat says

10 - The Downgrade of America's credit rating ( First time in American history)

Fiscal conservatism is dead in both parties. Both parties buy votes. Bush bought the senior citizen vote with Medicare D.

Kingshat says

11 - First time in American history over 42 MILLION Americans are living in poverty

Kingshat says

14 - Over 400,000 small businesses closing every year under Obama

Kingshat says

16 - No Summer Recovery 2009, 2010, 2011

Kingshat says

19 - Enabled the LARGEST number of HOME FORECLOSURES
20 - Turn America into the LARGEST FOOD STAMP NATION

Kingshat says

23 - Created OVER 25 million UNEMPLOYED

All of that stuff is thanks to the collapse of a massive housing bubble both here and in abroad. That happened before his watch. I blame cheap money from the Fed combined with banking deregulation (securitizing toxic mortgages) more than I blame Obama (or Bush for that matter).

36. He's a secret Muslim

37. He's a damn Kenyan!

Tell it like it isn't!

wthrfrk80 says

2 - G.E sending 36000 Jobs Overseas,(Obama handpicked G.E. CEO to head his Jobs Committee)

Right...Obama started that trend. It didn't have anything to do with free trade policies (by BOTH parties) that started long before.

Change that wasnt Change.. seems he has no change in mind.

Fact is, even with Jeff Emelt on board, he had 3 years to implement a US Manufacturing Inititive to attract these job back... but no! he wrote those jobs off and sunk billions into bancrupt solution -- new industries in Clean and Green Tech, which is the Democratic party agenda... which as we see today in Solar is now dominated by China.

Failed at both!

wthrfrk80 says

23 - Created OVER 25 million UNEMPLOYED

All of that stuff is thanks to the collapse of a massive housing bubble both here and in abroad. That happened before his watch. I blame cheap money from the Fed combined with banking deregulation (securitizing toxic mortgages) more than I blame Obama (or Bush for that matter).

Try to explain.. to the regular families from 2000 to 2006 and even today ... HOME PRICES are too high and in a bubble...

Why were they overbidding and going bonkers on home prices, gambling like it was Vegas.. Has anything today changed if your blaming it all on mortgages...

Patrick, I don't think people hate oB ama, I think people hate the way he's dismanteling America. He's run up the debt to unimaginable levels which is akin to financial terrorism against American citizens. That is a violation of his oath of office to "protect and defend the constitution".

In reality, he's been trampleing and shredding the constitution. That's what people hate.

The PEOPLE elect leaders to protect the PEOPLE from corporate fraud etc. Today, leaders are protecting fraudulent corporations from honest PEOPLE. The settlements being paid for fraud, amount to vending machine change for most large banks. This news is intended to stroke the PEOPLE. Leaders are just EASILY influenced by those with the largest assets.
Obama is a much better actor than Bush. Hating is like tailgating. Doesn't really accomplish anything.
Impeachment may make an impression !
http://www.orphansongs.com/save-the-banks/

Obama's choice, Save the PEOPLE or the Banks.

Lies are more appealing than truth when they fit what you want to believe.

Or maybe its some kind of mind control.

marcus says

Lies are more appealing than truth when they fit what you want to believe

is that why libs still think man caused global climate change?

Bap33 says

is that why libs still think man caused global climate change?

Yes, all the scientists who are far more intelligent than you, and who work very hard at being unbiased and relying on logic, analysis and data, made an exception this time, and decided to be biased and reach their conclusions based on emotion,....why ?

Obviously it's because they were liberals, and they ascertained the huge benefits that would accrue to the science world if it were in fact true that global warming is caused by man's activity.

(they also conveniently ignore all of the average to below average intelligence types who have the common sense and gut feelings to know that the massively significant impact humans have on our atmosphere coinciding with climate change is just a coincidence.)

marcus says

Bap33 says

is that why libs still think man caused global climate change?

Yes, all the scientists who are far more intelligent than you, and who work very hard at being unbiased and relying on logic, analysis and data, made an exception this time, and decided to be biased and reach their conclusions based on emotion,....why ?

Obviously it's because they were liberals, and they ascertained the huge benefits that would accrue to the science world if it were in fact true that global warming is caused by man's activity.

(they also conveniently ignore all of the average to below average intelligence types who have the common sense and gut feelings to know that the massively significant impact humans have on our atmosphere coinciding with climate change is just a coincidence.)

Science has a well known liberal bias. The conservative viewpoint knows that God Did It and doesn't need any of this fancy research and experimentin'

and those responses show that the truth must hurt ... interesting.

Yes, the truth ( i.e. how stupid humans can be ) does hurt. It hurts a lot.

What is so bad about intelligence logic and facts anyway ?