patrick.net

Kevin says

When you raise your daughters to be princesses and home makers,

Nobody raises their daughter to be a home maker.

Kevin says

Give your daughters video games and legos and I can guarantee that they're just as likely to grow up interested in STEM as your sons.

Give your son a barbie and he'll use his T-Rex figure to tear it limb from limb and eat it. Some things are biological. You can't turn boys into girls or girls into boys by giving them the right toys.

If you want more people, particularly females, to enter science and engineering, then the following must be done.

1. Scientists and engineers should be respected in the same way that so-called "pillars of the community" are. They should be respected as much as doctors, lawyers, athletes, and the military. Who wants to go into a profession that is sneered at by society?

2. The stereotypes of socially inept math, science, and engineering nerds must be vanquished once and for all.

3. Stop outsourcing. If there isn't a market for engineers, they will not be graduates in the field. No one wants to enter a field that is being relocated to China and India. That's why no one today goes into manufacturing. People choose their careers based on what they see as a sustainable job market.

Kevin says

I don't blame men for the lack of women in STEM, but I definitely blame parents.

Why doesn't anyone blame the women? If women are suppose to be carrying their fair share of the scientific and engineering work, then who is deciding to keep them out of these fields? Only themselves. The women everyone complains aren't being engineers are the ones actively choosing not to be engineers. But I guess it's not politically correct to put the blame where it really belongs.

Either accept that women as a whole aren't as interested in math, science, and engineering as men are and that's ok, or blame the women themselves for not pursuing these fields because it's not ok. Women have been free to choose their careers for decades. It's a lie to blame anyone else for their career choices. Either accept the women's choice or bitch to them about it. Don't blame anyone else but the decision maker.

Personally, I don't give a rat's ass whether or not women choose to enter one field or another. We aren't encouraging women to be coal miners even though that field is dominated by men. I say let women do for a living whatever they want, but don't bitch and moan when women tend to prefer some fields over others and those fields aren't the ones you want them to pick. They are adults and should decide for themselves what they are interested in doing for a living.

Kevin says

Interest in these fields is cultural, and the fact of the matter is that our culture actively avoids appealing to girls. Even legos aren't being marketed to girls anymore -- they've come up with barbie-ized versions that don't even let you build anything.
When you raise your daughters to be princesses and home makers, they're going to believe that being a princess and a home maker is what they're supposed to do.

Thats why they grow up being Doctors, Accountants, Lawyers, Investment Bankers...

The girls figured out very early why Barbie dolls was wearing Gucci, living in Malibu, and were driving a Vettes, certainly wasnt going to be from being a engineer... they learned to get a real job!

Dan8267 says

2. The stereotypes of socially inept math, science, and engineering nerds must be vanquished once and for all.

Good Luck on that one!

http://www.youtube.com/embed/zypIEHVuq2o

Dan8267 says

The women everyone complains aren't being engineers are the ones actively choosing not to be engineers.

Word. The women who complain the loudest about the lack of Women in STEM jobs are sociologists, women's studies profs, journalists, etc. - those who did not choose STEM careers - or even a STEM-based education - for themselves.

There are apparently hard-wired difference in men and women when plotting paths and navigating. This may give men a leg up in certain fields where abstracting time, space, and distance in the mind is a key factor (like engineering or cartography or plain old map reading).
http://psychology.illinoisstate.edu/cbs/readings/saucier_et_al_2002.pdf

People, here's a little 'open' secret ... medical school, M.D. program, is a graduate school for the biosciences. Yes, the first two years of every M.D. class comprise of masters' level courses for advanced degrees in physiology, biochemistry, etc. That's why the MD-PhD is a condensed joint program because the PhD part is mostly pure research than coursework.

Now, if women were not studying ... ahem ... science, then why are more than 50% of medical school classes comprised of women?

Here's my answer ... doctors earn six figure salaries and more importantly, have near lifetime job security. STEM jobs have low-to-ordinary pay, minimal job security, expected unpaid overtime, & constant threat of offshoring. Instead, I would imagine more practical young women, opting for finance/accounting BS programs and then, an MBA, over any science or engineering program, simply because in terms of salaries and job security, STEM work can't compete.

A Doctor is a Helping, Social profession that has many aspects that we would consider to be in an archetypical Female wheelhouse.

One interesting question: What is the ratio of female research doctors to practicing doctors?

thunderlips11 says

A Doctor is a Helping, Social profession that has many aspects that we would consider to be in an archetypical Female wheelhouse.

One interesting question: What is the ratio of female research doctors to practicing doctors?

This is true but consider this ... if the average internal medicine salary dropped from $200K+ to $75K, the chances are that it would be a male dominated field like chemical engineering, tough coursework but with ordinary payoff. Thus, my suspicion is that as opportunities for women grew in the 60s, medical school classes, within a generation, equilibrated to 50/50 Male/Female ratio due to the economic prowess of the profession.

As for research MDs, from my three stints at medical centers, I'd seen less than 15% female MD researchers. And from my personal experiences, every female MD-PhD (top grades/top MCATs/top research pubs) did it to get a free MD, paid for via the fellowship.

Unless you grow up female you do not know what societies pressures are upon women. Some women rise above it, but regardless of gender four out of five people do not rise above what their upbringing groomed them to be.

I'm four years into a relationship that I intend to stay in until the rest of my life. The man I fell in love with still wears thick glasses, wore braces headgear a few years and was very socially awkward as a kid.

I love all things related to STIM, I know many other women that do. I also know many women who are NOT into STIM, academic at all, but date and find so called 'nerd attractive'. However I know from my dating years that the 4 out of 5 comes into play, as in 4 out of 5 people you meet are single for a very good reason and will likely remain so entirely from their own doing for a long time.

Blaming women for 'hating' nerds is the hallmark of a bitter forever alones. We do a much better job of working around people of the opposite sex we find repulsive, so even if that was the case it would not remotely justify the lack of women in the sciences. Its because we are taught that if we like things not earmarked as 'female okay' people will think we are weirdos, the insecurity is often sewn in by our very parents and close family. I suspect many many great dancers, actors and designers never came to be because it was not male enough someones pride of the family son

No its not normal for boys to be into dolls, but its not really that unusual either, I mean GIJoe, same thing difference accessories. And trust me my sister and cousins and I loved those too in the rare instance we wanted to play something different.

I loved video games and computers at school as a kid, my parents despite easily being able to afford it; could not understand and refused to buy me anything related to it. Rather I kept getting horse riding equipment and clothes clothes and more clothes every Christmas. Wasn't suffering, but at the same time growing up in rural public schools was not able to grow in that direction until I bought my first computer.

Ask any gamer girl and unless she grew up with masses of brothers, where her parents couldn't possibly quarantine her activities; and thats it. The main concern of socially active children in their formative years is fitting in, many interest die in that pursuit.

Danaseb says

Unless you grow up female you do not know what societies pressures are upon women. Some women rise above it, but regardless of gender four out of five people do not rise above what their upbringing groomed them to be.

I'm going to make one gender bias observation and that's that women understand the nature of power and in modern times, it's about the amount of time studying vis-a-vis economic compensation. In other words, if it isn't an authentic money generator ... don't bother studying it. And here's a great indicator of this phenomena, in Japan, where women are not encouraged to be stock traders, cadre of housewives have become self-made currency experts, some earning 7-8 figures, trading (or advising) from home.

Thus, the archetypical male STEM (non-MBA track) person is more a hobbyist type than one who's geared towards the acquisition of power and wealth. Possibly, the alpha males in this arena have already hit the hedge funds and had left STEM work for good. Others, more risk averse, probably opt for an MBA to stay marketable as a team lead/project manager.

Danaseb says

so even if that was the case it would not remotely justify the lack of women in the sciences

I'd done my undergrad degree in Applied Chemistry & Chemical Engineering. My concentration was more on the chemistry side than process engineering.

In my graduating major of 35, there were 10 women. Of all the women, one went for a PhD at MIT. This person was offered fellowship money from every program she'd applied for including Northwestern, Univ of Illinois, MIT, etc. Thus, it was paid for PhD at America's top school.

The others, I knew 6 of them personally, went to work for a few years and then, went back to school for an MBA. But upon returning to work, they went into sales and marketing, for either the cosmetics or chemical sectors. Not a single women stayed in STEM work.

Thus, I don't buy into any theory that women don't have access to STEM career opportunities like men. They do but decide not to pursue them as a career, for the long term.

Rin says

doctors earn six figure salaries and more importantly, have near lifetime job security. STEM jobs have low-to-ordinary pay, minimal job security, expected unpaid overtime, & constant threat of offshoring.

All true, but that applies to men as well. The difference between men and women is that men still go into a profession that is socially stigmatized. Women don't.

Doctors are highly respected. Engineers are not. And it's really sad because being an engineer is as difficult and as useful to society as doctors are. Engineering is the 21st century field.

Danaseb says

Unless you grow up female you do not know what societies pressures are upon women.

Completely untrue. Both men and women are capable of empathy. In fact, in general it is not only possible to understand the trials that groups you do not belong to go through, it is essential to do so.

There is nothing magic about imagining yourself in a different position and subject to different circumstances. If the human mind can understand quantum mechanics, it can understand what it's like to grow up in a different gender, race, culture, etc. It's not rocket science.

Dan8267 says

men still go into a profession that is socially stigmatized. Women don't.

Doctors are highly respected. Engineers are not. And it's really sad because being an engineer is as difficult and as useful to society as doctors are.

Women, meaning the ones who are into academic work, see engineering as *the best door* into a business profession. For example, it's easier to get hired from an Applied Chem/Chem Eng program into a Proctor & Gamble internship, then fast track career, where one gets to learn about product development, sales, or marketing strategies but then later, that person can apply to Northwestern or Columbia business schools and laterally move into a director or senior position in marketing or strategy consulting. Why would this person ever stay in R&D?

Here's the simple difference between men and women, and I think Rin touched upon it:

Men have a love for THINGS. Boats, Cars, Planes, Nuclear Reactors, etc. in a way that only a few women have. I have never seen a woman fawn over a car, tenderly replace hubcaps, polish the chrome, replace components for maximum performance, etc. like a man does. That's why I believe men are more attracted to physical science and applied physical sciences like Physics and Engineering; it is fueled by a love of artifice that few women share.

There are probably some good reasons why this might be for men and not women. We do know that men and women are both capable of euclidian and landmark navigation, but that men do the former better, and women the latter better. It's been tested over and over again in many cultures, and the results are similar. Maybe it's more important for the hunters and warriors to be really "into" shaping spear heads, and more important for the gathers and, for most of human history, the distributors, to have more intuitive social skills.

Humans are not "Blank Slates" with minds of infinite mallebility, kept from broadening their preferences only by social forces. The social forces came from somewhere to begin with. Humans come "out of the factory" with many "pre-programmed" traits: Aversion to snakes, attraction to white toothed smiles, preference for large genitalia in partners, etc. These are not cultural; they are found in all cultures at all times with pitifully few exceptions (Certain Japanese emperors had bad teeth, so for a while all the courtiers dyed their teeth black), including in cultures that have been sealed from others for countless millenia (Highlands of New Guinea).

All this being said, as a Liberal I support the idea that women can engage in any field they wish without prejudice - even infantry. I wouldn't want the next Joan of Arc missing out on joining the US Army. It's also fine to expose girls to many careers.

Just because we endeavor to broaden the options, doesn't mean we're still illiberal because most don't choose the new options available. We can't force women to be free.

Danaseb says

Blaming women for 'hating' nerds is the hallmark of a bitter forever alones.

Also complete bullshit. Adolescent girls and young women are extremely prejudice against STIM and the people who study it. This is a cold hard fact. And the reason this fact is brought up in this discussion is because a lot of women have been falsely accusing men of being the real reason that women are not entering STIM. This false accusation is pure hypocrisy and is highly offensive. And that's why it is completely appropriate to point out this falsehood whenever some idiot makes it.

Danaseb says

Blaming women for 'hating' nerds is the hallmark of a bitter forever alones. We do a much better job of working around people of the opposite sex we find repulsive

Oh, the bigotry is apparent. The fact that you find "nerds repulsive" is exactly the problem. First of all, nerds is as much of an n-word as nigger. There have been many adolescent boys who have committed suicide as the result as being called a nerd.

Second, imagine if we redirected your statement to another group without changing the underlying content. Blaming women for 'hating' niggers is the hallmark of a bitter forever alones. We do a much better job of working around people of the opposite sex we find repulsive. Now do you see how offensive it is? Just replace one arbitrary group with another and the bigotry shines through.

The fact is that so-called nerds are responsible for hauling our asses out of the dark ages, virtually eliminating childbirth deaths for both mothers and children, over tripling the life expectancy, and improving the quality of life. Nerds have done more to improve the quality of your life than all the rock stars, athletes, and actors put together.

thunderlips11 says

Men have a love for THINGS. Boats, Cars, Planes, Nuclear Reactors, etc. in a way that only a few women have. I have never seen a woman fawn over a car, tenderly replace hubcaps, polish the chrome, etc. like a man does. That's why I believe men are more attracted to physical science and applied physical sciences like Physics and Engineering; it is fueled by a love of artifice that few women share.

There's not much difference in what men do with gear and mechanical stuff, that what women do with scrap books and crafts. Other than of course at the end of the day, you can't crank up that flower arrangement and drive to the store for a six pack.

thunderlips11 says

Humans are not "Blank Slates" with minds of infinite mallebility, kept from broadening their preferences only by social forces. The social forces came from somewhere to begin with. Humans come "out of the factory" with many "pre-programmed" traits

True, but in the case of STIM, American (possibly Western European as well) culture does play an important part in influencing people about whether or not they enter the field.

The "nerd" bigotry you see in the U.S. simply does not happen in many other countries, particularly in Asia. And surprise, surprise, Asia is where all the tech growth is. Even the field of computer science used to be dominated by women. It started during WWII when all the men were fighting overseas. However, during the 1970s the number of women entering the field plummeted at the exact same time as the Hollywood nerd image took off.

Culture matters in this case.

Dan8267 says

And the reason this fact is brought up in this discussion is because a lot of women have been falsely accusing men of being the real reason that women are not entering STIM.

Yes, I concur with the above.

Right now, most applicants to US graduate (not undergrad, not medical, not business) applied science & engineering programs were either US/Green Card males or international students (both genders).

In my own experience, aside from the MITer in my personal class, other American women, who wanted to go for PhDs in the sciences, have been offered money from very prestigious schools like Univ of Penn, Carnegie-Mellon, Univ of Chicago, etc. In contrast, these programs don't need to recruit American men, as there are already enough US based guys and Intl ones, who'll work for reduced stipends or even have corporate sponsorship.

Danasep has a faux victim status mentality.

As we speak, what's preventing any woman in America from downloading course materials from here: ocw.mit.edu ?

CaptainShuddup says

There's not much difference in what men do with gear and mechanical stuff, that what women do with scrap books and crafts. Other than of course at the end of the day, you can't crank up that flower arrangement and drive to the store for a six pack.

Scrap Books are for memories, and crafts are generally to give to people, no? What else do women collect? Dolls, horses, dogs, cats? All living things or representations of living things (or relationships!).

Rin says

Danasep has a faux victim status mentality.

Worse still, she blames the actual victims for the crimes.

Alls I know, anytime a man thinks he's got wimerns figured out, he ends up on the couch giving him self a hand.

Dan8267 says

True, but in the case of STIM, American (possibly Western European as well) culture does play an important part in influencing people about whether or not they enter the field.

I see your point about the demonization of "Nerds". You mentioned Hollywood, and that's a factor for sure. I think maybe it's part of that whole "Mysticism" crap that came along in the 60s.

But you're right, not only in Asia, but in most European countries, being an Engineer or Mathematician is considered very "manly".

I think there's a backlast against males in pop culure, and fathers in particular, that began with TV and I wonder if it has more to do with the realization that Females are the primary buyers of a household, and that single mothers are the heads of households. That's why we get ridiculous commercials where women are shown programming VCRs or using wireless connectivity while the men (esp. Dads) are clueless.

One interesting thing post-Apocalyptic shows never address, but would be an entertaining sub-plot, is the gender balance of power that would take place.

CaptainShuddup says

Alls I know, anytime a man thinks he's got wimerns figured out, he ends up on the couch giving him self a hand.

http://tinyurl.com/7wpab89

But that's another subject altogether.

Here's my theory ... if MD salaries dropped by 50% (70% if surgical specialty), I'd estimate that the MD class would go from 50/50 M/F to 70/30 M/F.

BTW, this won't effect the PA and nursing programs, as many of them are already earning senior engineering salaries.

The smaller pool of male MD students, who'd leave, would opt for Hedge Fund/Trading, Patent/Corporate Law, or top ten b-school, all sort of type A personality-oriented professions with a large payoff & plenty of personal responsibility/ownership.

The vast majority of women would probably leave for nursing, PA, or pharmacy, as those fields are similar enough to being a doctor but pay a salary which is solid and nearly guaranteed.

I don't think as many men will opt for those areas, as their original motivation to be in medicine was in controlling their lives and being a type of "leader in the clinic", than a person who's simply there for a paycheck.

Dan8267 says

Rin says

Danasep has a faux victim status mentality.

Worse still, she blames the actual victims for the crimes.

Are you people for real here? This is hilarious, the thinly vialed pent up misogyny in this thread is funny.

This thread originally was about the inarguable FACT that societal pressures changes what careers and even inner interest we have, how its strongly effects women from the offset of their lives. But, nope you had to just twist this whole thing into how women are evil and don't like you because you're too smart.

Forever alones being bitter forever alones.

Danaseb says

This is hilarious, the thinly vialed pent up misogyny in this thread is funny.

Calling a specific woman on hypocritical bullshit is not misogyny. Falsely accusing men of misogyny is, however, a manifestation of misandry.

The fact remains that women are the sole reason that women are not entering into STIM fields. I have no problem with a person who takes the stance that it doesn't matter what fields women go into. Different strokes for different folks. I also have no problem with a person who does consider this a bad thing and places the blame where it belongs with the women who decide that STIM and STIMers are beneath them.

I do, however, have a problem with someone passing judgement based on hypocrisy and bigotry. And to accuse STIM men of misogyny when the dearth of female STIMers is entirely due to the prejudices of women is hypocritical bigotry.

And Danaseb, the more you attack STIMers on this issue, the more you look like a bigot. And your attacks on "smart" people is utterly despicable. America has a long history of being anti-intellectual and glorifying stupidity. That's a large part of the reason that few women enter STIM. The last thing America needs is people like you promoting stupidity and chastising intellectual accomplishments.

The very notion of chastising intellectual accomplishments is retarded. Finding a cure for cancer, solving the energy crisis, and bringing peace to the Middle East would all be "intellectual accomplishments". What kind of low life would derogate such things?

Just imagine a 12-year-old girl reading Danaseb's comments. She would think, "I don't want to be 'forever alones being bitter forever alones', so I better not let anyone think I'm smart." Great message to send, Danaseb. You are the problem.

Dan8267 says

Just imagine a 12-year-old girl reading Danaseb's comments. She would think, "I don't want to be 'forever alones being bitter forever alones', so I better not let anyone think I'm smart." Great message to send, Danaseb. You are the problem.

????

I think you guys give crap spewed on the internet WAYYYYY to much accreditation.

CaptainShuddup says

I think you guys give crap spewed on the internet WAYYYYY to much accreditation.

I think you underestimate how impressionable 12-year-olds are.

Danaseb, when you're done with your 'Home Alone' bickering with Dan8227, do you have anything to say about the actual career paths of women, who did in fact, study science & engineering, to later pursue careers in business?

+rep for danaseb & the forever alone references. Those image macros are hilarious.

Dan, to some extent I agree that there is discrimination by women against men in STIM. Sort of. The ones that do though, aren't really worth a moment's concern.

Back in college, I dated girls outside of STIM fields almost exclusively (the pickings were slim in STIM). They never cared that I was studying engineering, and most of them were impressed that I could do that AND have a social life. The few that I dated long enough to somehow see me working on homework were usually mystified by the material & impressed that I could do it. Honestly, any NICE girl will probably take an engineer over a fratty business major.

The girls that did make comments about "dorks" were bleached blonde sorority girls & an angry lesbian campus police officer (that was an awkward conversation lol). The sorority girls that I ran into at parties that thought that way were dumber than a bag of hammers and you couldn't make me have sex with them with YOUR dick because of how dumb they were. Cue jokes about the smartest bone in them...

Anyway, unless you are a "forever alone" with poor hygiene, smelly clothes and a total inability to hold a conversation abut something other than work, you will have perfectly reasonable chances with the ladies. I would bet that surveying women with, "Would you date an engineer" would get responses of "no" or "unsure" some portion of the time. Even so, unless you walk around with a shirt that says, "I am an ENGINEER!!!!!!" chances are that they aren't going to care what you do for a living if you know how to talk to them / act during a date.

If you are referring to high school & earlier, then I would agree that PEOPLE are dicks toward "nerds." I was always into science'y stuff as a kid and was brought up by strict parents. I got teased by the "jocks" and even had my ass kicked a few times since I was a little socially awkward. By the time I got to college though, that was largely over and nobody really cared who was studying what. Girls didn't mind me because:
a) I bathed regularly
b) I wore clean clothes, despite them not being super trendy
c) I treated them like people
d) I worked part-time at the fitness center & kept myself in very good shape

Hell, even the engineers that I work with that DO fit the "smelly nerd" stereotype are married in at least 50% of the cases.

An interesting thread to parallel this would be, "how many males in STIM are single & blame someone else for it?" I think that in most cases, people over 30 & single are single by their own doing (whether they know it or not). My fiancee's single female coworkers are all going nuts trying to find men now, but it is tough for them because:
a) their personalities are a big part of why they are single
b) all the guys that wanted to settle into a relationship mostly have

Rin says

Danaseb, when you're done with your 'Home Alone' bickering with Dan8227, do you have anything to say about the actual career paths of women, who did in fact, study science & engineering, to later pursue careers in business?

I know that this isn't directed to me, but I have some observations.

More than 90% of the girls that I went to engineering school with are still in engineering now, 5 years after graduating. Only one or two of them went for Master's degrees, and they were both in science/engineering.

The engineering staff in my workplace is maybe 25% women, and they are all 35+.

My fiancee got her degree in MechE and is in technical sales now. She never really liked engineering, but did it anyway since it seemed to have better job prospects than a business degree, and she at least found it interesting. Her uncle was a MechE and was sort of her role model at the time. None of the other ladies in her sales team have engineering degrees, and it is a mostly female sales group.

I absolutely fit the "toy lover" category, and loving to tinker with my car in high school is what made me choose mechanical engineering. Farting around with that car (roots of my username on here) has kept me interested in engineering and has led me to pursue a lot of EE & software knowledge as part of projects. Hell, I run a side-business selling embedded DSP modules for air flow sensors to interface them to engine controllers. I don't really give a shit about the money (it is good, for now anyway), I just want to learn & find cool new applications for my skills. It is a hobby as far as I am concerned.

bmwman91 says

Anyway, unless you are a "forever alone" with poor hygiene, smelly clothes and a total inability to hold a conversation abut something other than work

No one is like that. This is how the real world works. In high school and college, a select few popular guys have lots of sex and the rest of the guys struggle. After college that all changes. By the time I guy reaches his late 20s, men have as much power and choice as women when it comes to sex. Women depreciate with age and have to compete with more and more younger women. Men appreciate. They get better looking, more financially secure, and are considered more attractive.

During your teens and early 20s, every guy is competing with 3 other guys for the same girl. During your 30s, every guy has 3 opportunities for every competitor, and those opportunities are in their early 20s. Women, on the other hand, find themselves in a dearth of available men their age, coupled by the fact that the men their age don't date women their age. The power dynamics between the two sexes reverses. And for every year past 30, it just keeps getting better for men.

So, no. There is no such thing as a forever alone guy. Granted, I'd have appreciated all the sex more in my teens than in my 30s -- it's more of an ego boost than anything else today -- but the myth of forever alone is bullshit. Guys become more attractive, more confident, and have less competition the older they get.

That said, people like Danaseb actively discourage women from entering STIM by presenting the unfounded assertion that anyone who enters STIM must be a social pariah, and the only measure of a person's value is how many sexual partners they've had. That's a pretty juvenile attitude, and it certainly doesn't reflect reality. The fact is, it's been damn easy for guys in their 30s to get laid ever since the pill was invented. It's hard for teenage guys who aren't the alpha males, who have no car, no job, and no money. But once a guy is established in his career and no longer competing against so many other men -- and has the bonus of being in a small generation compared to the Millennials -- the odds are in his favor, especially if he's in a successful career.

And that's why you "know far more single women than men that are 28 & older".

bmwman91 says

I dated girls outside of STIM fields almost exclusively

I tended to date those inside of STIM, and there were plenty of hot and intelligent ones in college. Of course, most college age chicks are hot by virtual of being young. I've found that female STIMs aren't bigots, but yeah, those sorority chicks are.

In any case, talking about male STIMs love lives is a bit off topic. The real point in this discussion is that women have no one to blame but themselves for women not being represented in STIM as much as men are. And Danaseb perfectly illustrates why. So, to all those liberal-arts feminists who blame men for "making science anti-women", direct your rage towards Danaseb and women like her, and leave us guys alone.

bmwman91 says

More than 90% of the girls that I went to engineering school with are still in engineering now, 5 years after graduating. Only one or two of them went for Master's degrees, and they were both in science/engineering.

The engineering staff in my workplace is maybe 25% women, and they are all 35+.

My fiancee got her degree in MechE and is in technical sales now. She never really liked engineering, but did it anyway since it seemed to have better job prospects than a business degree, and she at least found it interesting.

This is quite a stark contrast to my experience. Albeit, perhaps part of it is that I'm sort of excluding the various Asian diasporas and mainly focusing on American women.

BTW, like a lot of folks, I've also been making a lateral move into finance/trading and what I've noticed is that a lot of women in finance, have strong educational backgrounds, many even tech educations from various science/engineering programs. So I guess I'm kinda bias here, because for one, I don't like being a 'techie', since it's a relatively under appreciated profession vs let's say being a trader.

thunderlips11 says

Word. The women who complain the loudest about the lack of Women in STEM jobs are sociologists, women's studies profs, journalists, etc. - those who did not choose STEM careers - or even a STEM-based education - for themselves.

pro womens rights groups back in the 60-70s wanted womens studies, minorities wanted minorities studies.. they got it ... today, they didnt do much for many...

Now they are complaining because they made a dreadful mistake decades ago... now they want hand outs... give us engineering jobs.... well honey.. go earn one!

thomas.wong1986 says

Now they are complaining because they made a dreadful mistake decades ago... now they want hand outs... give us engineering job

I think they're just complaining for the sake of complaining. No one wants an engineering job; one wants a stock analyst, sales, or consulting gig where one can drop names, ala "I represent Bain, Lazard, etc. Here's my business card; let's discuss some joint prospects."

In academia, folks in the humanities have a 'grass is greener' mentality against those in the biomed or physical sciences because the latter depts tend to attract govt or private sector grants whereas liberal arts is stuck waiting in the queue for some endowment of the arts via Gilded Age foundations like Rockefeller, Carnegie, or Vanderbilt.

Rin says

This is quite a stark contrast to my experience. Albeit, perhaps part of it is that I'm sort of excluding the various Asian diasporas and mainly focusing on American women.

BTW, like a lot of folks, I've also been making a lateral move into finance/trading and what I've noticed is that a lot of women in finance, have strong educational backgrounds, many even tech educations from various science/engineering programs. So I guess I'm kinda bias here, because for one, I don't like being a 'techie', since it's a relatively under appreciated profession vs let's say being a trader.

Nah, a lot of them are white. Most of the female engineers around here are Asian & Indian though.

And one's profession is a very personal choice. Personally, you couldn't pay me enough to go work on Wall Street. Nothing about that lifestyle appeals to me, despite the possibility of huge income (it doesn't help that SO many people are clamoring to get into that field in hopes of cashing in, making it very competitive and hard to attain said high incomes). I couldn't care less if tech jobs are under-appreciated. If anything, it helps me to keep a low profile so I can go out & live life! Different strokes for different folks, though.

Just out of curiosity, do you live in NYC? I get that sort of flavor from your perspective on which professions "people want."

Dan8267 says

So, no. There is no such thing as a forever alone guy.

LOL you can't be serious. There are a few real-life examples in my office. Their single'ness is a direct result of their lifestyle & personality, and they don't want to be single. Forever alone guys aren't exclusive to STIM jobs, but the nature of the work probably does appeal to those types and I bet that there is a slightly higher concentration in STIM than say, finance or sales.

bmwman91 says

Personally, you couldn't pay me enough to go work on Wall Street. Nothing about that lifestyle appeals to me, despite the possibility of huge income (it doesn't help that SO many people are clamoring to get into that field in hopes of cashing in, making it very competitive and hard to attain said high incomes). I couldn't care less if tech jobs are under-appreciated. If anything, it helps me to keep a low profile so I can go out & live life! Different strokes for different folks, though.

Just out of curiosity, do you live in NYC? I get that sort of flavor from your perspective on which professions "people want."

I'm still fortunate to not have to live in NYC. But from all my former tech buddies, who're now into finance/trading or even back office ops for banks, they still clamor that Manhattan is still the *place* to be.

I guess one of the key differentiators between the monied professions and STEM is that almost no one talks about taking a lower paying job, after the sort of 'break-in' period whereas in STEM, the idea that bonuses are less than 10% of one's income and that 0-2% raises are normal, is just a part of the work culture. From my own current limited exposure to trading, compensations from $100K to $500K are kinda normal and even expected. And then, everyone wants to be on a dealbook, where earning greater than $500K is completely normal.

If I'm earning $500K, I could be a self-financed engineer, like Maxwell, later on in retirement. I wouldn't have to spend my earning years in a venue where I may see my work move to Asia or South America before I need bi-focals :-)

Is it really that easy to pull so much money? It seems like everyone would be piling into that field if it was "easy" to make $500k. I know nothing about it though, so maybe I am wrong (which is why I am apparently not making $500k).

bmwman91 says

It seems like everyone would be piling into that field if it was "easy" to make $500k.

Here's the thing ... most persons are not on the team, which generates enough bank (hefty dealbook), so that the bonus pool averages from $100K to $500K, depending upon one's position in the trading company. And some top prop traders earn $1M to $5M per year. Usually, those types tend to later start their own hedge fund. Most companies, however, won't let just anyone touch that kind of money on their own.

In general. many persons are analysts, salespersons, underwriters, etc, earning some $90K to $150K, with a bonus program in place. I'd say that a vast number of Ivy League types are in this category, working the numbers at let's say Morgan & Stanley or one of the other IBs.

So yes, the $500K compensation exists but it's not like everyone can pile into it, like applying for a normal job. This is quite different from let's say the job market for Java programmers, nurses, and construction work.