patrick.net

This isnt new to many of us! When i graduated from HS... we all pretty much knew we had to pull ourself by the boot strap

Somehow I doubt it. I have yet to see a generation that wasn't a bunch of lazy, horny, asswipes during their teens and early twenties.

Sure, there are individuals who are hard-working, innovative, horny, nice guys during their teens and twenties, but they are the exception, not the rule.

Of course, every generation claims that they were respectful to elders, worked hard in school and early in their careers, and weren't shallow, egotistical asswipes looking to get laid. Hindsight is certainly not 20/20.

18

Patrick 2012 Jul 7, 2:37am

Every one is special, they just aren't entitled.

Wrong! In America, if you're born rich you are entitled to large unending income stream taken by legal force from the work of people who were not born rich, based solely on your ownership and monopolization of assets you personally did nothing to create, especially land.

And you're entitled to 15% tax rate on dividends and capital gains, which make up nearly all the income of the very rich, while people who actually work hard and earn a lot of income from their own efforts pay 28%. This guarantees that the rich continue to accumulate all assets faster than everyone else, widening the wealth gap in every generation.

That entitlement is a giant redistribution of wealth from the most productive members of society to the 0.1%. Look up "non-productive rent-seeking". It's something like 100x all social programs combined. That rent money is hidden in every dollar you spend on food, clothing, shelter, and even money you don't spend, as the Fed inflates away your savings to pump up prices of assets owned by the 0.1%.

We need to end the culture of entitlement in America.

19

freak80 2012 Jul 7, 8:37am

God Bless America!

20

Tenpoundbass 2012 Jul 7, 9:23am

Dan8267 says

Somehow I doubt it. I have yet to see a generation that wasn't a bunch of lazy, horny, asswipes during their teens and early twenties.

That's because you grew up in California, where the bleeding hearts are all from. We grew up getting our Assed busted and heads knocked in when we screwed up. I remember the Liberal family down the street, we thought their parents were so cool and wished our Mom and Dad were as lenient. Last I heard, Wally OD'd and Mike ended up in Prison.

Patrick time wounds all heels. Just because someone inherits money, how they manage to hang on to it, is the trick. That used to be an easier feat when all you had to do is put it in an interest baring account.
That's not so easy anymore. The old addage holds true NOW more than ever.

A sucker and his money will soon part ways.

21

Patrick 2012 Jul 7, 9:40am

Patrick time wounds all heels. Just because someone inherits money, how they manage to hang on to it, is the trick. That used to be an easier feat when all you had to do is put it in an interest baring account.
That's not so easy anymore.

Actually, it's easier than ever!

Just get the government to bail you out when your bets go bad. Very easy when you own congress.

22 thomas.wong1986 2012 Jul 7, 2:45pm

Wrong! In America, if you're born rich you are entitled to large unending income stream taken by legal force from the work of people who were not born rich, based solely on your ownership and monopolization of assets you personally did nothing to create, especially land.

entitled ? nada..many may not get a dime and it goes to charitable institution..

Otherwise if you have parents who set up a trust for their children that it is controlled by a trust administrator.

fact is you can make your children work twice as hard to earn their inheritance...

23 thomas.wong1986 2012 Jul 7, 2:49pm

And you're entitled to 15% tax rate on dividends and capital gains, which make up nearly all the income of the very rich, while people who actually work hard and earn a lot of income from their own efforts pay 28%. This guarantees that the rich continue to accumulate all assets faster than everyone else, widening the wealth gap in every generation.

Dividends earned after multitude of OTHER taxes paid on the ownership of a business... Payroll Employee/er, Property taxes, Business Tax, Fed/State/Foreign tax and collect/report sales taxes.. Its alot more envolved than just a simple tax rate on dividend.

24

Dan8267 2012 Jul 7, 2:55pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/business/economy/03rates.html

That's because you grew up in California, where the bleeding hearts are all from.

Wrong. I grew up on the east coast and never lived in California.

Now, if you want to talk about New York, New Jersey, Boston, Philly, or South Florida, I can accommodate. Heck, I even lived in Washington, D.C. for a spat.

25

freak80 2012 Jul 7, 3:43pm

Wong does have a point I think. How much of the tax stuff is a "shell game"?

Maybe the combination of corporate income taxes and cap gains should be taken into account. Both are basically taxes on business profits.

Then again, like some have pointed out, some companies paid no income taxes at all, like GE.

26

freak80 2012 Jul 7, 3:50pm

Relevant article:

I wonder how much money is wasted paying accountants to game the tax code?

27 thomas.wong1986 2012 Jul 7, 4:11pm

http://ir.10kwizard.com/contents.php?ipage=8092464&source=329&welc_next=1&fg=24

Then again, like some have pointed out, some companies paid no income taxes at all, like GE.

actually not really true! there is a big difference between reported SEC net income and IRS taxable income. What we see from 2011 SEC reports is they earned $20B in pretax with $5B in tax provision leaving some ..$15B to Common Stock (net Income)..

For tax purposes many companies get IRS accelerated depreciation on equipment and machinary vs straight line for Public GAAP reporting. Therefore lower net income earlier.. leaving a timing difference. In addition GE like many other tax payers received Energy Star tax credits on their tax return... Doesnt GE make all those wind energy turbines ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax-deferred

http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=206875,00.html/

28 thomas.wong1986 2012 Jul 7, 4:15pm

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2011/04/04/the-truth-about-ges-tax-bill/

Relevant article:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/business/economy/03rates.html

I wonder how much money is wasted paying accountants to game the tax code?

if true, many would lose their CPA license and many CPA firms would have gone under years ago... end of the day.. this is about Politics by the left!

I hope your not taking your facts from the Comedy Channel...

29 thomas.wong1986 2012 Jul 7, 4:19pm

Now, we'll give you brief answers to the main questions, but you'll have to bear with us afterward for the full explanation.
Did GE get a $3.2 billion tax refund? No.
Did GE pay U.S. income taxes in 2010? Yes, it paid estimated taxes for 2010, and also made payments for previous years. Think of it as your having paid withholding taxes on your salary in 2010, and sending the IRS a check on April 15, 2010, covering your balance owed for 2009.
Will GE ultimately pay U.S. income taxes for 2010? After much to-ing and fro-ing -- the company says it hasn't completed its 2010 tax return -- GE now says that it will pay tax. (For more on GE's tax strategies, see GE's taxes: A case study)
Why should you care about this? Because we all have a stake in how this plays out. Thanks to the uproar over GE, we now risk ending up with legislation that targets GE but produces all sorts of unintended consequences. Public rage can make for bad law. For example, the Alternative Minimum Tax was adopted in 1969 amid an uproar generated by a Treasury report that said 155 wealthy families had paid no income tax. But the bill, badly designed and badly amended, has morphed into a mess that affects millions of middle- and upper-middle-class families, but not the really-high-income tax-minimizing families. They're not affected because the AMT fades out of the picture for families with income of $600,000 and up.

30 JG1 2012 Jul 7, 5:44pm

It's hard to argue with his facts.

The solution starts with public campaign finance, so everyone has a chance of being elected based on their own qualities rather than on how much cash they can raise.

Isn't the ability to raise cash indicative in part of the public support and ability to persuade and lead people? It certainly is in the business world, so not entirely sure why this isn't relevant to politics, as well. If you can't attract paying customers in the business world, or donors in the non-profit or political world, then you aren't appealing to many, and perhaps don't deserve to be around - need to go back to the drawing board and make a more appealing case to the public.

PS - To pick only one part of Daniel's Newsroom rant apart, the U.S. ranks lower in infant mortality than many other countries - although I've never heard 178th - because we count fair compared to other countries who don't count it as an infant death unless the infant survives X number of days and then dies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate

"Many countries, however, including certain European states and Japan, only count as live births cases where an infant breathes at birth, which makes their reported IMR numbers somewhat lower and raises their rates of perinatal mortality."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_mortality#Comparing_infant_mortality_rates

You can probably assume if he/they are lying about this one, most of the rest is BS, too.

31 bob2356 2012 Jul 7, 6:18pm

Did GE get a $3.2 billion tax refund? No.
Did GE pay U.S. income taxes in 2010? Yes, it paid estimated taxes for 2010, and also made payments for previous years. Think of it as your having paid withholding taxes on your salary in 2010, and sending the IRS a check on April 15, 2010, covering your balance owed for 2009.
Will GE ultimately pay U.S. income taxes for 2010? After much to-ing and fro-ing -- the company says it hasn't completed its 2010 tax return -- GE now says that it will pay tax. (For more on GE's tax strategies, see GE's taxes: A case study)

Your idea of taxes paid is the estimated taxes sent in . Is this a joke? Taxes paid is the number after the year is closed and all additional taxes or refunds are processed.

I wonder what the IRS would say if I were still working on my 2010 tax return? It's nice to be the king.

32

freak80 2012 Jul 7, 6:27pm

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

I hope your not taking your facts from the Comedy Channel...

Thomas,

The link says "nytimes", right? Did you even read what was in the link? I'm not suggesting you should blindly follow ANY source, but I don't consider the NY Times to be comedy.

You're starting to sound like just another far-right troll. Which is a shame. Because many of your previous posts had some good points, I thought.

33 sbourg 2012 Jul 7, 9:19pm

Jeff Daniels' speech is pathetic. Typical liberal pablum. Economic-illiteracy, factual idiocy, AT ITS APEX. Our country was the greatest in the world because we had a Dem Republic older and better-designed than ANY OTHER. It gave us a limited federal govt where the states could compete and have significantly different characteristics, evoking pride and real differences. Once the federal govt grew esp under FDR, all hell broke loose and the sky was the limit for massive federal govt -- including its devastatingly harmful effects on our personal freedoms, economic freedoms, ability to start businesses more freely and keep the lion's share of what we earn. But as for effects on the rest of the world, our country was the greatest and best. We saved freaking Europe and Asia from being swallowed up by Hitler and the Japanese. The world would be a much worse place if not for us. But we've lost our economic power and vitality (Jeff Daniels has no clue about why) in large part because our federal govt has become as big and economically-reckless as those of Europe. So we're all in trouble Jeff. And it's NOT because Democrats don't win enough elections. Dolt.

34

Auntiegrav 2012 Jul 8, 12:48am

uck 'em all. In America, you have no fucking neighbors. You have the weak and unentitled who will end up charred and quivering on the end of your fucking fork, in the name of Jesus Christ.

Stand your ground.

Open fire.

Eat the poor.

Rape the defenseless.

Hahahahhaahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahaha!

Been there, done that. My version goes like this:
"Give everyone a gun and tell them they have to shoot anyone that pisses them off. Everyone will either be a better neighbor or a better shot. Both are useful skills."

I'm so far right, I'm left.

P.S. I'm not a bad shot: better than how I am as a neighbor. You can mix up the skills to cover your bases, but know which ones you have when crunch time comes, and realize what teamwork really means ("Without 'me', there's no 'meat' in 'team'.")

35

Auntiegrav 2012 Jul 8, 1:12am

I don't consider the NY Times to be comedy.

I do, but then, sometimes the only way we can talk about serious issues is to laugh at them.
I find the Mouthpiece of Empire to be hilarious at times, and just 'not even wrong' at others.
The inability of supposed "intellectuals" to use their intellect and follow their own purported 'logic' to an actual reductionist conclusion is amazing. The newpapers of this country are in the business of selling the things that they should be investigating, whether political or commercial.
I stopped getting the National Geographic when there was a Cadillac Escalade ad on the same page as the story about peak oil. The NYT is the same. You cannot take a "news" story seriously when it is used to sell its alternative. That isn't serious reporting or editing. It's just extraction (drilling for wallets).
Reasonable people are being turned into sadistic bullies by the polarizing use of sales tactics and marketing on issues that would otherwise be handled intelligently and kindly. This is the same tactic that led to the Civil War and killed millions of people just because it sold newspapers and weapons to do so. The issues were not solved by a war: they were solved by diplomacy during the rebuilding process after everyone just got tired of fighting for no real personal reason at all.
We don't fight "terror" because we are threatened by it. We fight terror because it sells fucking newspapers and cars and uniforms..and oil. The only actual threat is an exaggerated fantasy concocted by people who get paid billions of dollars to extract and sell the future to the present at a 'discount'.
Liberals aren't going to take guns away from armed citizens if the armed citizens know each other and know what's going on.
Terrorists aren't going to "destroy" the infrastructure of our country (how does one take away freedom unless you first believe freedom only comes from ownership?).
What if it was ALL marketing?
The only thing that changes is the product's cosmetic features: Christianity, Islam, Humanism, Chevrolet, Baseball, NASCAR, FOX, NBSeeNuthin', CIAlqaeda, FBIran, .....
http://www.youtube.com/embed/pUO5pVUv1ho

36

Auntiegrav 2012 Jul 8, 1:36am

Once the federal govt grew esp under FDR, all hell broke loose and the sky was the limit for massive federal govt -- including its devastatingly harmful effects on our personal freedoms, economic freedoms, ability to start businesses more freely and keep the lion's share of what we earn.

Are you sure you don't mean "Reagan"?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?source=patrick.net&i=52b_1329796059
How about "GWBush"?
http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/income/2010-08-10-1Afedpay10_ST_N.htm?csp=hf
Hell, Obama is the best actual REPUBLICAN since Clinton (see "Free Trade Deals" or "Corporate-Friendly Policies").
That's a stretch, though, since every candidate is the Corporatist candidate: "Republican" or "Democrat" is just an App that changes the color of the bus they drive.
Maybe by "massive federal gov't" you meant, "common decency", and by "earn", you mean "accumulate resources so that anybody else who wants them has to pay ME".

37 thomas.wong1986 2012 Jul 8, 1:55am

Jeff Daniels' speech is pathetic. Typical liberal pablum. Economic-illiteracy, factual idiocy,

What more do you expect from Hollywood these days ?

38 thomas.wong1986 2012 Jul 8, 2:00am

bob2356 says

Your idea of taxes paid is the estimated taxes sent in . Is this a joke? Taxes paid is the number after the year is closed and all additional taxes or refunds are processed.

"Estimated"quarterly tax payment... is no different for Corps as it is for any other taxable entity including individuals... Your estimate is due each quarter with the final true up 100% payment due at year end. You can be sure there are no free rides!

39 thomas.wong1986 2012 Jul 8, 2:08am

Thomas,

The link says "nytimes", right? Did you even read what was in the link? I'm not suggesting you should blindly follow ANY source, but I don't consider the NY Times to be comedy.

You're starting to sound like just another far-right troll. Which is a shame. Because many of your previous posts had some good points, I thought

No, i am an accountant and pointing out to the poor journalism even from the NYT. I doubt even the Finance Staff (Accounting and Tax Department ) working in the NYT would believe in the crap the journalist spew out.

I suggest you speak to a CPA you meet to get a better understanding the differences between SEC vs IRS reporting in regards to Corp taxes. You will find its all politics at the end.

40

Patrick 2012 Jul 8, 2:50am

factual idiocy

Did he get any fact wrong?

41 bob2356 2012 Jul 8, 5:15am

bob2356 says

Your idea of taxes paid is the estimated taxes sent in . Is this a joke? Taxes paid is the number after the year is closed and all additional taxes or refunds are processed.

"Estimated"quarterly tax payment... is no different for Corps as it is for any other taxable entity including individuals... Your estimate is due each quarter with the final true up 100% payment due at year end. You can be sure there are no free rides!

So in your utopian world no business ever overpays and gets refunds? If a corp sends in money quarterly it is all considered "paid" even if a big chunk comes back for various reasons. Bullshit. It's not "paid" until the year is closed, the numbers are finalized, the tax return is finished, and all the amounts settled pure and simple. Until that point you are just banking money involuntarily with the IRS against your tax liability.

There are plenty of free rides. That's why the tax code has 75,000 pages. You don't think any special tax breaks are in it? Every single time there is a tax break for someone it's a free ride that everyone else has to pay for. You are claiming to be an accountant? Really?? Where at Nigeria? Somalia?

42

Tenpoundbass 2012 Jul 8, 5:54am

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=110413,00.html/
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1120w.pdf

The world would be a much worse place if not for us. But we've lost our economic power and vitality (Jeff Daniels has no clue about why) in large part because our federal govt has become as big and economically-reckless as those of Europe. So we're all in trouble Jeff. And it's NOT because Democrats don't win enough elections. Dolt.

Can I double like?

43 thomas.wong1986 2012 Jul 8, 5:57am

bob2356 says

So in your utopian world no business ever overpays and gets refunds? If a corp sends in money quarterly it is all considered "paid" even if a big chunk comes back for various reasons. Bullshit. It's not "paid" until the year is closed, the numbers are finalized, the tax return is finished, and all the amounts settled pure and simple. Until that point you are just banking money involuntarily with the IRS against your tax liability.

Not sure how you can deny that tax payers be they individuals or corporate dont pay quarterly income tax. They do and its pretty final, any overpayment is simply a ledger entry. The govt does keep it.
As far as refunds! they occur due to losses carry back 2 years and thus get a refund due to restated and claimed losses. There are no refunds in the current year...

As for 37,000 pages of the tax code.. frankly needs to reindexed.. much of the code has already been nullified and voided over the years with new laws... that is a red herring, and has no meaning... The actual active IRS tax code is much much smaller than the 1000 of pages.

44 thomas.wong1986 2012 Jul 8, 6:02am

bob2356 says

Every single time there is a tax break for someone it's a free ride that everyone else has to pay for.

Tax break ?

Couples get a tax break for the rug rats they produce..
so shouldnt that "tax break" be repealed ?

But do you ever hear many in an uproar over that ? No!

http://www.kiplinger.com/features/archives/2007/01/childtaxopedia.html

45

Dan8267 2012 Jul 8, 6:20am

Can I double like?

The problem with voting to degrees is that such systems would be abused by people trying to wring as much support for their side by always voting high on any issue that even slightly agree with.

In order for such a system to work, you'd have to give a limit amount of "vote power" to each individual and let that individual divide up his vote power. By doing so, an individual can only vote high (strongly) in one issue by voting low (weakly) on other issues.

You also need to cap the max voting power an individual can contribute to one issue to prevent manipulators from pooling all their voting power to a small set of issues.

In short, such a voting system can be done, but it takes a lot more effort than binary voting in order to prevent manipulation.

46 JG1 2012 Jul 8, 6:32am

sbourg says

factual idiocy

Did he get any fact wrong?

Patrick - Yes, see my post above for the only one I fact checked, which was wrong. According to Wiki based on one source U.S. ranks 34th in infant mortality, on another, 45th. This is before, as per the info. in Wiki, one takes into account that this isn't an apples to apples comparison, the U.S. applies a different/tougher standard to its infant mortality statistics than many other countries do.

And Newsroom/Sorkin/Daniels said U.S. ranks 178th in infant mortality - that wrong by a huge magnitude. And casts doubt on the rest of the reeled-off "facts".

47

Auntiegrav 2012 Jul 8, 6:55am

Dan8267 says

In short, such a voting system can be done, but it takes a lot more effort than binary voting in order to prevent manipulation.

Yeah, it's called "one dollar, one vote", and it's the 'democracy' of the United States of America.
You vote "like" every time you buy something. The only "dislike" vote is one you get to make every 2 or 4 years, and that one is usually split almost equally with people who don't know the difference, and some who do know, but like their position in it.

48 bob2356 2012 Jul 8, 6:58am

Not sure how you can deny that tax payers be they individuals or corporate dont pay quarterly income tax. They do and its pretty final, any overpayment is simply a ledger entry. The govt does keep it.
As far as refunds! they occur due to losses carry back 2 years and thus get a refund due to restated and claimed losses. There are no refunds in the current year...

I hope your accounting is clearer than your writing. This is a muddle. You say that there are never refunds for individuals or corporations, they are just accounting entries, the government keeps it. Then you say there are refunds but not the current year. WTF?

So without your usual equivocation you are saying the IRS never issues a tax refund check to a corporation? Ever? I would like to see some documentation on that.

I hope your accounting is better than your reading skills. I never denied quarterly tax payments were made, just whether these payments represent actual taxes paid which they don't. It's an involuntary escrow account against tax liabilities.

My point is if someone sends the IRS $1000 (or any number it doesn't matter) for the year then gets the $1000 refunded for some reason then they didn't pay taxes. Sending money then getting it back is NOT paying taxes in my mind. If a corporation sends $1000 for the year then has a loss for the year and the $1000 is refunded (or credited to another year it does not matter) then the company did not pay taxes for that year. Period. The $1000 is not the taxes paid. I don't see how you are denying this, but somehow you manage.

Couples get a tax break for the rug rats they produce..
so shouldnt that "tax break" be repealed ?

Whether it should be repealed or not has absolutely nothing to do with your statement there are no free rides. Please try to stay on topic and focus. Is this or is this not a tax break aka a free ride? Is someone paying less than someone else? Yes or no? Any tax law or regulation that makes an exception is a free ride for someone at the expense of someone else.

Whether the tax code is 37,000 or 75,000 pages or has dead sections it still contains thousands of tax breaks written in by well bribed politicians. If there is one it's too many.

You are actually working as an accountant? In America?

49

freak80 2012 Jul 8, 7:20am