patrick.net

CaptainShuddup says

In this job market, and in my experience that trumps all else.

I agree, but the employers don't, and putting a 2-5yr experience requirement for a entry level position on top of a college degree requirement on top of that where none was required before is just plain stupid.

There has to be a way for new people to come up, no one comes out of college knowing everything they need to do the job.

The current expectation from employers is that these new people should expect to work for free for those 2-5 years in internships to get that "experience". They simply do not want to do deal with training employees any more and put all the burden of meeting the employers' needs on the employee now.

Even if this situation wasn't driving down wages it would be totally ridiculous and terrible.

Rin says

The trick is that if you can finish medicine with little to no debt, then it's still worth it.

If you can come up with the $150-200k college costs out of pocket then great, few can expect to have that sort of cash lying around though.

Rin says

As an engineer, he'd worked 65+ hours per week [ much of it under appreciated ], but as a doctor, it's basically ~45 hours, after he'd completed residency. He does some extra research projects so the net total is still 65+, but that's more a labor of love than a requirement for putting food on the table.

Sounds like he was a workaholic. If those hours seem "normal" and "fine" to you then perhaps you're one as well, not that that is a bad thing. I have say though that I've worked around doctors for a long time and nearly all of them get burnt out by the time they're 50 and some of them were used to practically living in the hospital they worked there so much. If they were pulling ER duty on top of their normal patient load 96+ hour work weeks were the norm. And giving ER duty to the low doctor on the totem pole is typical in most hospitals.

If you're thinking about going independent then I have to say that unless you're very good and specialize in a niche that the hospitals don't care about or can't monopolize then you won't make it. And there aren't very many possible niches that fit that criteria. Lately nearly all doctors have been selling their practices and becoming "merely" employees for the big box hospital groups because they can no longer go it alone.

Its been quite the step down for them in pay and prestige, nearly none of them wanted to do it, they have no other choice besides retiring early which most couldn't afford to do. That situation is likely to get worse for quite a while before it gets better.

$26,756 is a ridiculously low salary for a college graduate. Even ignoring student loans, that salary is at the poverty line. Back in 1998, I rented a small apartment for $10k/yr. All my other living expenses (electricity, transportation, food, etc.) came out to another $10k. That's $20k/yr just to live on back in 1998.

Today that would be about $27,500, more than what the average college grad is making. And that's before taxes! Throw in student loan repayments and even the CS majors at $34k/yr are barely making it paycheck to paycheck.

There's no way the Millennials are ever going to be able to buy a house. They'll have to wait to inherit grandma's house or keep living with their boomer parents until the boomers die.

Meanwhile social security is threatened because "there aren't enough workers". Hmmph, there are plenty of workers. Capital isn't doing its job of keeping citizens productive.

Does this count real colleges, or those like ITT and University of Phoenix? I've mentioned before that my dog has a bachelor's degree in liberal arts.

I employ her as a food taster and she manages my security detail. Since I got her, there hasn't been one polar bear in my yard. That degree was the best $30 I ever spent.

elliemae says

I've mentioned before that my dog has a bachelor's degree in liberal arts.

elliemae says

Does this count real colleges, or those like ITT and University of Phoenix?

Which chart are you referring to? The study cited in the original article used data from all colleges FWIW.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Its funny cuz' its true, at least according to mainstream news/economists anyways.

Pro click and loop in the back ground through a different tab while reading the OP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhvPMWqWDEM&feature=related

Dan:
He only licks them because he can.

Dan8267 says

There's no way the Millennials are ever going to be able to buy a house. They'll have to wait to inherit grandma's house or keep living with their boomer parents until the boomers die.

You act like there's no such thing as Collective Experience.
The idea is to take what was behind the current door, and use that experience to guide you through the next open door, and have the knowledge to know how to utilize what you find there.

A young man bitching about his wages now, is doomed to live a failed life. Those low wages are all part of his life training, if he's busy complaining about the instructor, I can assure you, he wont learn "Squat".

As for tts, I'm not going to argue with you, I can only go by my experience and marketability.
I'll tell evey one this though. You know what is back in fashion?
Age and Experience. I am so glad that the Social experiment is over, the one that the 80's "Consultants" laid on Corporate America to gut their key and experienced people and replace them with young dumb and full of shit hipster wise asses, that didn't know shit from shineola.
Companies still hiring from the Senior Year book, "Most likely" page, will get eaten ALIVE. Experience is back BABY and Pops ain't fucking around!

CaptainShuddup says

As for tts, I'm not going to argue with you, I can only go by my experience and marketability.

So data from numerous different 3rd parties means nothing for you?

Are you sure that is a reasonable way to stay informed about anything? It sounds more like a way to justify putting your head in the sand when you hear/see something that you don't like.

CaptainShuddup says

I'll tell evey one this though. You know what is back in fashion?
Age and Experience. I am so glad that the Social experiment is over, the one that the 80's "Consultants" laid on Corporate America to gut their key and experienced people and replace them with young dumb and full of shit hipster wise asses, that didn't know shit from shineola.

Actually as was already pointed out to you they're also requiring degrees on top of the experience. And if you read the articles and look at the charts you'll see that even if you do land a entry level job the compensation has been dropping for several years straight now with no let up in sight.

If you want to ignore all that info. for whatever reason and won't bring any info. either to explain and justify your reasoning then fine but you won't get any sympathy from anyone. You certainly won't convince them of anything either.

CaptainShuddup says

A young man bitching about his wages now, is doomed to live a failed life. Those low wages are all part of his life training, if he's busy complaining about the instructor, I can assure you, he wont learn "Squat".

The same jobs pay less now than they did a few years back but this the employees fault because some complain quite reasonably that they can't afford to live much less live as well as their parents on the wage that is given?

I hope you're just trolling...

tts says

So data from numerous different 3rd parties means nothing for you?

Especially NOT, these days the definition of "DATA" almost always has an agenda behind it. I know what data looks like. I also know most job postings request degree, but in reality if it's out there in my field. I will be emailed or called about the position.

CaptainShuddup says

Especially NOT, these days the definition of "DATA" almost always has an agenda behind it.

So its not data unless you say it is because you never know there might be a conspiracy or cabal or something out there producing false studies on the declining standard of living and wages and jobs for who knows what reason?

That is sensible to you?

CaptainShuddup says

but in reality if it's out there in my field. I will be emailed or called about the position.

So there is no problem because its not a problem for you?

If GDP goes negative but you're doing fine financially do you also reject the idea that there is a recession going on?

tts says

I hope you're just trolling...

I can't even tell anymore.

Isn't there a "law of physics" that says it's impossible to distinguish between extremism and a parody of extremism, at least online?

Either way, the ignore feature is a good one.

Poe's Law yea.

I'd give him a +1 if I thought he was just trolling me if only for the effort he keeps putting into it...except I think he is actually being serious with me.

I've met people IRL (9/11 Truthers and Tea Baggers) who do say some of the stuff he does and use some of the same arguments and its usually impossible to get through to them.

tts says

That is sensible to you?

Let's just say, companies that don't have your traditional HR departments, live a different reality than that of those that do. And aren't the companies you describe, the ones posting quarterly losses, since 2007, and keep adding States Warn notices around the country?

Hey man come on, you haven't provided any data you've shown pictures, graphics in an article to support the authors assertions. Data is what I do. Good data is most always presented as is, it is only dirty extrapolations that the presenter has to play dress up with, and present it as charts.

I laugh at your chart that suggests that Computer Science jobs start at 34K. Photoshop novice make more than that, designing Facebook pages.

You're just part of the ministry of Negative reinforcement.
We're all too fat, lazy and stupid and no one is qualified to the jobs, because they are so low wage, no one would want them anyway.
Let's import more Indians and give them HB1 Visas.

I'll tell you what I told my wife... "You've just got to know your Shit"
That is all it takes. You can do anything in this county besides Practice medicine or law, by just cracking books, and Googling the subject.

Just for some closure on this topic, concerning medicine as a second career, a decent option is to attend either one's state program or go to eastern Europe [provided that the foreign school is listed, so that its graduates are able to sit for the US foreign medical licensing exam back home]; that'll lower the costs from $250K to $60K. If one takes the foreign path, assuming no slots in the state med, it pretty much excludes one getting into an elite surgical residency at a Hopkins or Mayo or an extremely selective program like Dermatology but there are plenty of lesser renown residencies for non-US school graduates. In addition, unlike internationals, you won't need to apply for a work visa, once you're back from Romania.

Also, as an older person, one can still work 3 days per week in medicine or even just *moonlight*, keeping the hours in the 28-32 hours/week but still earning close to $100K. As an engineer, it's virtually impossible to be a lifelong contractor and find work, for a continuous 10-11 months per year like a doctor, given the lack of prowess in corporate America to maintain R&D and production facilities stateside, along with rampant age discrimination.

A part-time doctor beats working at a Home Depot or Bed & Breakfast, when corporate America decides to take one into the back shed.

In my case, I have the $250K from my hedge fund P/L already, but still, I'd choose eastern Europe over a private US med because I'm not so concerned about the prestige clinics or ultra competitive residencies. I simply want to be a productive person & I don't think trading is a meaningful endeavor in life.

CaptainShuddup says

Hey man come on, you haven't provided any data you've shown pictures, graphics in an article to support the authors assertions. Data is what I do. Good data is most always presented as is, it is only dirty extrapolations that the presenter has to play dress up with, and present it as charts.

Captain, can you provide a description of how recruiting happens in your sub-specialty? You can use aliases and such, to keep your companies' and individual names' private.

In general, the folks I knew in your shoes tended to have worked on specialized govt/defense projects, where they're always re-hired on a contractual basis, to keep let's say a satellite system going, for years or even decades at a time. In general, no new persons gained enough experience, to replace the old timer contractors in these types of arenas. But still, these fellows do have some sort of undergrad experience, like an associates degree, even if they didn't bother to get a full BA for the HR losers.

Rin says

Just for some closure on this topic, concerning medicine as a second career, a decent option is to attend either one's state program or go to eastern Europe [provided that the foreign school is listed, so that its graduates are able to sit for the US foreign medical licensing exam back home]; that'll lower the costs from $250K to $60K. If one takes the foreign path, assuming no slots in the state med, it pretty much excludes one getting into an elite surgical residency at a Hopkins or Mayo or an extremely selective program like Dermatology but there are plenty of lesser renown residencies for non-US school graduates. In addition, unlike internationals, you won't need to apply for a work visa, once you're back from Romania.

What about the language barrier? In Romania even the alphabet is different. You would be better of going to Croatia, Slovenia, or Poland where at least the alphabet is the same? I've been thinking about stuff like this sine I could easily get Polish citizenship, I assume that would help?

zzyzzx says

What about the language barrier? In Romania even the alphabet is different. You would be better of going to Croatia, Slovenia, or Poland where at least the alphabet is the same?

Well, these are the English programs at those schools, basically designed to make 'em more International and attract UK and Commonwealth students. And yes, you do need to spend more time there, since there are a couple of added years, to learn some of the local language, for the clinical rotations. But the costs, even with the added time, is still less than $70K overall.

zzyzzx says

I've been thinking about stuff like this sine I could easily get Polish citizenship, I assume that would help?

All the power to you, just check to see if you can take the foreign medical licensing exam from whatever program you're interested in, when you're back home.

I wonder why people are still loading up on debt and get college degrees. Sounds like a bad investment to me.

Perhaps erudition should replace education?

Peter P says

I wonder why people are still loading up on debt and get college degrees. Sounds like a bad investment to me.

Perhaps erudition should replace education?

Well, here's London Univ's distance program for a low tuition:

(http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/lse/bsc-economics)

It is possible to work internships and do a UK program, like above, and then, fulfill the HR requirements, when you switch jobs.

Rin says

Well, these are the English programs at those schools, basically designed to make 'em more International and attract UK and Commonwealth students. And yes, you do need to spend more time there, since there are a couple of added years, to learn some of the local language, for the clinical rotations. But the costs, even with the added time, is still less than $70K overall.

Can't you work and go to school there, to help defray the costs?

zzyzzx says

Can't you work and go to school there, to help defray the costs?

I can't see how that would be possible, without a type of telecommuting gig back at home.

Rin says

I can't see how that would be possible, without a type of telecommuting gig back at home.

OK, so if one goes to one of these schools, it not possible to get a job locally because unemployment is so high?

tts says

Is a college degree necessary for work that was done by OJT's for decades just fine? Not really no. However if the employer decides that it suddenly is necessary, then that no gets changed to yes. Which is exactly what has been happening for years now but has particularly become prevalent recently, the Great Recession has drastically accelerated the credentialism trends.

But at the same point if that's what the market wants...

Competition still exists for employees. OJT means time, money and energy and frankly not all employers want to do that. An organization could have a standardized test to weed some weak applicants out but that would cost money and time as well. So a degree is the baseline standard (undergrad usually).

Let's say one company decides it wants better employees. So it hikes requirements and hikes salaries. People from other companies leave to go to it. Eventually the heat is felt by others who do the same. Repeat for a few decades.

Meanwhile you have other checks that creeped in since the 80's. By the 90's most did drug tests. Now they have criminal background. Pepsi got in trouble for not considering those that were arrested...not tried but just arrested even on a bad charge. Soon it will be credit checks if you work in finance or even to be a cashier.CaptainShuddup says

I laugh at your chart that suggests that Computer Science jobs start at 34K. Photoshop novice make more than that, designing Facebook pages.

Huh? Ever hear of elance.com Computers are world wide and so is the internet. Offshoring pretty much eliminated much of the IT sector starting a decade or so ago. What specifically can be said about code made in the USA vs that of India, South Africa, Russia or Brazil? It is non physical work and as such does not require it to be performed in the USA. You can get programming work for probably 66% less than what you see in the USA. And there is no social security, medicare, health insurance, 401k etc.

zzyzzx says

Rin says

I can't see how that would be possible, without a type of telecommuting gig back at home.

OK, so if one goes to one of these schools, it not possible to get a job locally because unemployment is so high?

I think it goes a bit beyond that. For the most part, our collective experiences are designed to move from let's say Rochester NY to Houston TX, and find some equivalent types of jobs, given a location change within the US or Canada. The other aspect is the color of the local industries; Rochester is a part of the upstate NY 'rust belt', whereas Houston is the up and coming energy town, and thus, relevant experiences at let's say Eastman, may result in a major pay hike, upon getting hired by Exxon-Mobil in TX. That's a huge boost for one's career in petrochemicals. The USA still has this type of career mobility, if you're adventurous.

In much of Europe, however, one generally needs a contact on the inside to get hired. The place typically frowns upon newcomers, at least in terms of the whole white collar hiring space. Now, this isn't saying that US based multinational corps may not hire you, but if your focus is medical school, I can't imagine how one could fit together an ex-pat job with that of a demanding full time program.

mdovell says

What specifically can be said about code made in the USA vs that of India, South Africa, Russia or Brazil?

Wrong, that sentiment was so 2001, America tried that. The problem with off shoring IT work is the programmer that actually knows about the project is at home sleeping off the full day's work of coding he did while we were sleeping in the US. The folks available for QA and support in their Wee hours which are our prime office and meeting hours. Are not the on top of their game.
The result is the useless auto check out cashier machines that make you take every thing out of the bagging area and start over. And ultimately a live cashier physically scanning your order anyway.

Foreign developers don't worry me, American business men are now willing to pay more to have their developers in the same country if not the same building. So at any moments notice, they can have that person present to defend, fix or enlighten them on the project at hand.

They want results NOW.

I spent a year out of work, while corporate America figured out they can't have their domain schema developed in India. Software that you intend to package yes that works. But not for software than runs the enterprise and manages jobs and data tasks.

B-b-but, what about the 1 Billion customers and the "High Tech Jobs of the Future?"

Do you mean the Politicians and Corporations that pushed for NAFTA, WTO, and Offshoring and Lowest Tariff Rates in History lied to us? They only wanted to move abroad for cheap labor to sell back to the US, not to sell US goods abroad?

Seems to me salaries have stagnated for more than a decade while benefits got slashed, work hours grew longer, and jobs became more scarce.

Looks like the policy ain't working for the general welfare. But it is working for the top 1%, and that makes the Republicans and Democrats very happy.

BTW. Apple only employs 80,000 worldwide, and how many of them are working at the Genius Bar or are working the mail room below middle class income levels?

Compare that to any auto maker, today or back then, in number of jobs and median wage.

Manufacturing is wealth. Porn, Donuts, Financial Fraud, and Copyrighted Animated Characters can not support 310M people.

CaptainShuddup says

, that sentiment was so 2001, America tried that. The problem with off shoring IT work is the programmer that actually knows about the project is at home sleeping off the full day's work of coding he did while we were sleeping in the US. The folks available for QA and support in their Wee hours which are our prime office and meeting hours. Are not the on top of their game.

Captain, the reason why that 1st round of IT offshoring failed was that corporate America, like a herd of lemmings, did exactly the same thing w/o considering the risks. They all poured their collective capitals into turning Bangalore-India Inc, into the next South Korea or Taiwan, but for software instead of firmware. Well, that was a joke as India, being a former commodities player for the British Empire, was never an end-to-end solutions provider. Instead, it was a body shop and that aspect of their business culture hadn't changed since Queen Victoria's time. Naturally, software is a value added service, code by itself, is not a *silk or dye* business and thus, it was destined to fail, circa 2006-2009, just as quickly as it had taken off before then.

Today, other Asian players have woken up and realized that in order to win the big global contracts, they need value-added services, not cheap labor. For instance, recent Filipino call centers have not only been taking calls but have been using bulletin boards and chat rooms to categorize problem tickets, gathering more data from alternate sources, and providing more complete follow-up solutions to customers, using text messages, etc, to add greater value to the customers' business concerns.

So I don't exactly see this trend ending anytime soon as the former India Inc will be replaced by other nations which want to cross the digital divide.

thunderlips11 says

Apple only employs 80,000 worldwide, and how many of them are working at the Genius Bar or are working the mail room below middle class income levels?

And how many of them are working in sweatshops? How many of them committed suicide on the job?

thunderlips11 says

Manufacturing is wealth. Porn, Donuts, Financial Fraud, and Copyrighted Animated Characters can not support 310M people.

AMEN.

I nominate the above for "quote of the week."

Of course, manufacturing is also pollution. When the Democrats abandoned the working class in the late 60's and embraced environmentalism, it was the beginning of the end of manufacturing in America.

wthrfrk80 says

Agree 100%. But how can that happen when those same people own our politicians?

unions. you can't outsource everything. if the on site network engineers and the systems administrators and the desktop support specialists unionized and went on strike when outsourcing increased there would be no more outsourcing.

omgbacon says

unions. you can't outsource everything. if the on site network engineers and the systems administrators and the desktop support specialists unionized and went on strike when outsourcing increased there would be no more outsourcing.

But the Democrat party no longer represents unions or average working people. It represents urban pseudointellectuals, environmentalists, feminists, gays, and Chicano Studies professors. It's been that way since 1968.

And we wonder why the country has been steadily getting worse (economically) since then.

and tech workers don't want unions for some reason.

but all their complaints about 80 hour weeks, working weekends, understaffed 24x7 coverage and so on could easily be solved by unions.

as long as you're at-will you're at-mercy. doesn't matter how much you're paid or whether or not your company gives you free sodas.

programming jobs can be done from anywhere, at any time, and they usually are. just because the programmer is local doesn't mean he's ever actually in the office working 9 - 5. they don't do time in the office, despise meetings, like their independence and then they wonder why their job gets moved 12 time zones away to be performed by someone who also works odd hours (compared to the hours kept by everyone else in PST) and also communicates poorly through email. yeah there can be a quality issue, but those quality issues become very easily rationalized when you look at the cost savings on salary and benefits.

but the rest of the IT world can't easily be outsourced. if those on-shore network engineers and systems admins stopped plugging in cables and racking and stacking systems guess what happens?

Ever heard of IaaS?

CaptainShuddup says

Let's just say, companies that don't have your traditional HR departments, live a different reality than that of those that do.

Perhaps but this sounds like a corner case. Most companies, even small ones have a HR of some sort. Even if they don't they still often do what every one else does, instead the manager or owner just does it directly instead of having a HR stooge do it for them.

CaptainShuddup says

And aren't the companies you describe, the ones posting quarterly losses, since 2007, and keep adding States Warn notices around the country?

No, they're doing quite well actually.

CaptainShuddup says

Hey man come on, you haven't provided any data you've shown pictures, graphics in an article to support the authors assertions. Data is what I do. Good data is most always presented as is,

This amounts to, "its not data unless I say it is" which is ridiculous. Whether in paragraph form or a Excel spread sheet or a pie graph data is data. I choose to often post charts because they make complex issues easily understandable, there are ways to be deceptive when doing this but you haven't demonstrated that I'm doing so at all, you're just making the claim wholesale.

Never no mind that I didn't generate those charts, I found them, and that many times the source data is often posted on the charts themselves along with the chart author's name.

CaptainShuddup says

I laugh at your chart that suggests that Computer Science jobs start at 34K. Photoshop novice make more than that, designing Facebook pages.

Apparently not, going by the chart which is relevant since you haven't actually discredited it in any way.

Even if you want to ignore that chart the other charts noting college grad. income in older age groups and worker income since the 70's clearly show large drops in progress and that is from 2 different sources. You haven't even tried to show differently at all, just made claims.

CaptainShuddup says

We're all too fat, lazy and stupid and no one is qualified to the jobs, because they are so low wage, no one would want them anyway.

Oh wait a minute, wages are now so low for most jobs no one would want them but its laughable for CS jobs to start at 34K?

CaptainShuddup says

You can do anything in this county besides Practice medicine or law, by just cracking books, and Googling the subject.

This is essentially "BOOTSTRAPS" all over again. That clearly can't work in a rigged job market or economy which is what we have.

and yes, entry level comp sci jobs start pretty low these days.

What is a computer science job anyway? Does it require formal methods on computational theories? Or just plugging cables around?

it's doing science with a computer, duh. you know, where you copy answers off the internet and use wikipedia as an authoritative source.

ha ha ha ha.

no, really it's where they teach you how to gamify things.