patrick.net

One thing I never understood about anti choice folks is that they claim to be so pro-pregnancy yet refuse to care for the unborn via free or means tested prenatal health care. This has resulted in the USA having a shameful infant mortality ranking of #34 behind most wealthy countries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate

Then, to add insult to injury, they are against good public school education, healthcare for disadvantaged families, etc. It would be more logical for anti choice folks who follow any logic at all to pay for and encourage abortions for the poor since they don't want to assist in their welfare before they are born or after.

I am strongly pro-choice. Why would a conservative be against abortion? Overpopulation is not a conservative idea at all.

Ruki says

So say those who need a convenient excuse to devalue life.

One day, I'm going to have to write up a thread on abortion. Just been too busy.

In any case, the abortion debate is completely irrelevant to this thread.

Ruki says

Yet Roe gives us carte blanche right to kill the child right up through the third trimester -- which is why no other nation that has legalized abortion allows such a crime to occur.

Wrong.

There is no honor in killing. Life of a person is precious. If those parents are not capable of love, they should not have had children in the first place.

I think the main thing is she refused an arranged marriage.

While some will see only ISLAMISTS here, this could as easily have been a story written about Indians.

In some countries, girls are still seen first as valuable properties to be traded around, not as people.

And as said as it is, who hasn't heard some Western parents that have said:

"I brought you into this world, I'll take you out!"

Parents view children as their property and the fact that she had made it to 18 didn't change their sense of complete ownership rights.

I don't think this culture belongs in America.
Same with the mexican gang, teen breeding culture.
Same with the drug culture.
Same with the baby murdering abortatoium culture.
Same with the no death penalty culture.
Same with the no Second Ammendment culture.
Same with the no God culture.

But, this is not about me. I do wonder how a liberal minded person, who HATES when American's do something, anything, and say it was out of their faith in God .. and those liberals HATE to hear of a child in school praying, mentioning God in a speech, or singing about God at Christmas time .... but, oddly, when a freaky arab murders anyone, in the name of their god, then those same liberal's think everyone should respect the "strong convictions and religious culture" of the murderer. Doesn't that seem weird? It looks like "progressive liberal" means "double standard".

Dan8267 says

In any case, the abortion debate is completely irrelevant to this thread.

nope ... this was a slow abortion that took 17 years. Murder is murder.

Even though I am a strong believer in corporate personhood, I am reluctant to call fetus a person. The unborn is not even capable of taking actions for its own benefits.

elliemae says

17 year old girl was too "westernized" for her parents' taste, so they killed her

In Communist China, they get an early start in the violence against women.

The preferred One Child would be a boy, for the honor of the family and all that.

At least in Communist China they don't waste their time (and money) for birthing and raising the girls.

In the future, they will wonder why their precious only son can't find a mate. Oops, no baby! Sorry, family lineage broken.

I guess things balance themselve.

Peter P says

Even though I am a strong believer in corporate personhood, I am reluctant to call fetus a person. The unborn is not even capable of taking actions for its own benefits.

an interesting point. I am of the opinion that the union of the egg and the sperm creates a NEW cell that will split a set number of times, resulting in a human that has a DNA trail that exactly matches the male and female donors.

The egg dies in a very short time if no sperm comes along.
The sperm dies in a very short time if no egg comes along.
The NEW cell dies after 80 or 90 years if it's lucky.
The NEW cell is life, and can be nothing but the product of the two donors, so I look at the instant the fertile cell splits to be a new life created.

By the way, the donor/host female body reacts to the fertilized egg right away too. Maybe that should be the agreed upon reason for calling a new life a new life?

Bap33 says

Maybe that should be the agreed upon reason for calling a new life a new life?

Yeah but is the new life a new person?

Whether or not, in Communist China if the (One) new life/person is/gonna be a woman, often not a new life/new person worth having.

I am not pro-pick-a-kid. Heck, I don't even like them taking pics and telling folks ahead of time. I'm old school.

Genetic engineering for any life ... flora or fauna ... is not a good idea. Unless they come up with Roaches that eat Blackwidows and Blackwidows that eat Roaches. That would be ok.

they cannot reliably pick the kid before conception. At least, not yet.

But they can pick one unborn ones they eliminate.... an early (pre-natal) start on violence against women.

I do not understand this preference of boys over girls.

Anyway, IMO abortion should not be disallowed because of possible sex picking. This is a dangerous and slippery slope. Groups who are silly to perform this on a cultural basis will have a reduced chance of spreading their genes. In the end, Nature is fair.

probably a last-name-carries on thing? In my nationalities history, before they went all Catholicistic, the middle name was the mom's maiden name. It helped keep cross breeding to a minimum. The Azores are kinda small, so they are really careful.

The mexicans give each kid nine zillion names to cover both sides and track the bloodline .. but, uncles hump their neices an aweful lot in mexican culture. Not sure why. The narrow bloodlines in the backwoodsy areas of mexico have all of the classic birth defect issues, including low I.Q., club hands and feet, hair lip, palsey, and other birth issues. Starts to add up now, dont it?

I wonder what Icelanders do?

they hold mixers for teens and invite Greenland

I do think human societies should encourage more race-mixing for biodiversity's sake.

Peter P says

I do not understand this preference of boys over girls

It is not possible to understand the culture imperatives of a culture that is alien to oneself. It (the behavior) just is, what it is.

No more possible than it is to understand why on the Real Estate Threats, there are some who get off on bragging about their savvy, smart investments, peppering their broadcasted boastings with belittling epithets against those who disagree with them.

I suppose those kinda people are a culture that's alien to me.

Well, I tend to think that categorical imperatives are meta-ethically bad.

I hate Kant.

I consider myself a multiculturalist. But I also believe that all cultural can be reduced to food. Ultimately, you are what you eat. :-)

Peter P says

myself a multiculturalist

Me, too.

It's the Cool and Hip Way in the Cool and Hip Bay Area.

But that's a big difference than (fully immersed) living it or being raised in it or whatever. Without that kind of perspective, even if we "Hipster In" with some superficial exposure to them by living in an Internationalist Place like the Bay Area or London or Vancouver or whatever, other cultures are still alien to us.

[...]

Peter P says

I consider myself a multiculturalist. But I also believe that all cultural can be reduced to food. Ultimately, you are what you eat. :-)

guess I do like Asian foods... gave up on moms German Meatloaf and 'cruts.

Peter P says

I do think human societies should encourage more race-mixing for biodiversity's sake.

Only Caucasians think that way, you will find more roadblocks from Asians, Africans, Middle Easterners and Indian Natives.... they have no wish to dilute their bloodline and culture.

gayness is not real popular in those groups either

Bap33 says

gayness is not real popular in those groups either

We should boycott humus.

"Chick pea puree"

see how it sounds the same?

Vicente says

I think the main thing is she refused an arranged marriage.

While some will see only ISLAMISTS here, this could as easily have been a story written about Indians.

In some countries, girls are still seen first as valuable properties to be traded around, not as people.

And as said as it is, who hasn't heard some Western parents that have said:

"I brought you into this world, I'll take you out!"

Parents view children as their property and the fact that she had made it to 18 didn't change their sense of complete ownership rights.

“Eagles are dandified vultures” - Teddy Roosevelt

Please don't confuse Indians in this debate. Honor killings are not endemic in Indian (Hindu) society. There is a problem with backward, ignorant people with cross caste relationships but with education this is being stamped out.

Every society has it's ignorant people but it depends on whether the cultural diasphora accepts this or speaks out against it.

I'll preempt the usual caste curry and cows comment by saying that before throwing those stones at Hindus about caste violence, there have been no genocides, witch hunts , inquisitions associated with the faith. If the worst is caste violence by illiterate , backward , ignorant people struggling to survive then there is no comparison with lynchin's of black folk in a prosperous superpower or ethnic cleansing of all non muslims in muslim dominated countries pakistan and bangladesh.

thomaswong.1986 says

they have no wish to dilute their bloodline and culture.

It is understandable that powerful families (like the Medici) would want a "bloodline." I just find it amusing that regular families care things like that. I wonder if they have a coat of arms too? :-)

Dan8267 says

Please people. As Marcus has said thousands of time, we cannot judge other people's culture. This honor killing was a religiously significant event. The family "perceived" the girl as being too westernized, and their perceptions are more important than the girl's life.

Of course we we free to judge anything we want. We just cannot pass out sentences. :-)

Religious activities are not above the law. For example, human sacrifice is ILLEGAL even if the "lamb" gives consent.

Indians are cool.

Bap33 says

Dan8267 says

In any case, the abortion debate is completely irrelevant to this thread.

nope ... this was a slow abortion that took 17 years. Murder is murder.

Following that philosophy, the death penalty is abortion. Murder is murder.

No two concepts are completely irrelevant to each other.

Bap33 says

those liberals HATE to hear of a child in school praying, mentioning God in a speech, or singing about God at Christmas time

Liberals don't hate any of those things. Take it from me, a liberal.

If a student wants to pray to your god, the Islamic god, a Hindu god, or Satan, I have absolutely no problem with that student being able to do so anywhere as long as he's not forcing others to participate against their will including by holding a captive audience at a graduation ceremony.

If I can't sing the praises of Satan during the graduation ceremony without being escorted out by force, then you can't do the same of Jesus. Fair's fair.

However, if a student wants to pray on his own or with other consenting people, he's free to do so regardless of whether his prayers are to Jesus or Satan. The school cannot interfere as long as he's not disrupting school activities such as classes. But the school cannot give him special treatment either as that is state sponsorship of religion.

Somehow, I doubt that those who favor "prayer in schools" apply that philosophy to Wicca, witchcraft, Satan worshiping, Islam, or polytheistic religions like Hindu, Confucianism, and Daoism. I'll bet all those "bring god back into the classroom" types would freak out if the god brought back was Gaia and the students formed a witches and warlocks club.

Gaia, the Earth mother and fertility goddess

Students form a witches and warlocks club

Peter P says

No two concepts are completely irrelevant to each other.

Oh yeah, what about sex and Linda Tripp?

[...]

Peter P says

There is no honor in killing. Life of a person is precious. If those parents are not capable of love, they should not have had children in the first place.

If those parents aren't capable of love THEY SHOULDNT HAVE FUCKED EACH OTHER.

we will endure horrible atrocities and pain of all kinds until we finally understand this.

Peter P says

thomaswong.1986 says

they have no wish to dilute their bloodline and culture.

It is understandable that powerful families (like the Medici) would want a "bloodline." I just find it amusing that regular families care things like that. I wonder if they have a coat of arms too? :-)

interesting point Peter... what does the Libertarian view suggest?

It suggests that they want the government out of their lives so they can build a smaller little government that we call A FAMILY.

Communism begins with an attack on the family, and ends with the complete destruction of society.

Libertarianism begins with an attack on government, and ends with a kingdom with a tribal chieftain.

Dan8267 says

Bap33 says

Dan8267 says

In any case, the abortion debate is completely irrelevant to this thread.

nope ... this was a slow abortion that took 17 years. Murder is murder.

Following that philosophy, the death penalty is abortion. Murder is murder.

nope, the baby and the girl are innocent, but the penalty for murder should be death. Killing is not murder. Killing an innocent person on purpose is murder.