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Conventional Logic vs. Religious Logic


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2011 Dec 9, 9:12am   84,749 views  235 comments

by uomo_senza_nome   ➕follow (0)   💰tip   ignore  

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People who argue that their beliefs are true have the burden of proof. This is a very important concept in making arguments, known as Russell's teapot.

Russell's teapot states that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making scientifically unfalsifiable claims rather than shifting the burden of proof to others.

People who argue that Evolution is not science, but dogma -- then should also accept that we should teach Flying Spaghetti Monsterism in schools.

From the founder of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster )

I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism (Pastafarianism), and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence.

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109   leo707   2012 Aug 7, 9:00am  

marcus says

http://www.quickmeme.com/meme/3q3sgx/

Yes, that image is amusing, but there is a fundamental problem with the assumption made by the image -- that Christians don’t actually do anything that merits pissing off an atheist; atheists are getting their panties in a bunch simply because Christians exist.

Do you honestly think that Christians have given Atheists no reason to be pissed off?

Also, it is not that there is something special about Christianity that draws the ire of atheists. Any proselytizing faith that had a huge bulk of members pushing things like intelligent design for science classes would also piss of Atheists.

110   leo707   2012 Aug 7, 9:02am  

curious2 says

It will be interesting to see what happens if someone proves conclusively that Jesus never actually lived

No need to for them to worry. Baring time travel, I don't think that can ever be proven.

111   Automan Empire   2012 Aug 7, 9:03am  

Mathematics allows for many concepts which are entirely abstract and exceed the constraints of the physics of the universe.

This reminds me of a quote, "Black holes are God dividing by zero."

112   curious2   2012 Aug 7, 9:18am  

[...]

113   leo707   2012 Aug 7, 9:28am  

curious2 says

Ah, but many do worry, in proportion to their own doubt, which is why they insist everyone must echo the same doctrine and live accordingly. Meanwhile, evidence tending towards disproof continues to be catalogued:

Unfortunately I will have to wait until this evening to watch the videos, but I have heard the arguments against the existence of a historical Jesus.

While -- based on the current evidence -- I think that it may be likely that historical Jesus did not exist, that is far from proof that he did not exist. It is much easier to prove that something exists rather than prove that it does not exist.

Even using a time machine I am sure that some will still doubt that it proves the non-existence of historical Jesus. How could we be sure that we were going back in "our" timeline, maybe it just transported us back to some alternate dimensions time, and there was still really a historical Jesus in our timeline.

114   curious2   2012 Aug 7, 9:54am  

[...]

115   Randy H   2012 Aug 7, 10:16am  

Dan8267 says

I would argue that the universe is deterministic even though its not fully predictable and that true randomness does not exist even though the concept is useful in statistical analysis of physical phenomenon. And yes, technically the universe does satisfy the definition of a computer. Put that does not imply that there is a programmer or a purpose to its calculations.

I'm neither a mathematician nor a physicist. But Dan captured pretty much what I was trying to convey, and which marcus sort of jokingly hinted at: the physical universe is granular (or digital, if you will). Continuity is a wonderfully useful mathematical concept that helps figure out all sort'a'stuff. But at the quantum level, empirically observable things are not infinite. And somewhere I do recall that even adding lots and lots of zero-order things together are still zero-order sums.

The reason I brought this up is that the most compelling arguments when it comes to "god" are empirical, not philosophical. Philosophy is very vulnerable to attack by both those of religious faith as well as those of "post modern" inclination. But the scientific process and empirical observation have the impact of permanently altering the way humans tend to think about things henceforth. (No, I'm not knocking theory and all that flows therefrom, but theory isn't ultimately any more useful than philosophy without tests to validate or falsify said theory).

So, again, if the Universe (the physical one, not the conceptually mathematical but only in our heads one) turns out to be finite, then that breaks a fundamentalist [evangelical-variety] tenant at the core.

116   marcus   2012 Aug 7, 10:33am  

Even if the concept of an infinitely small length or distance in a vacuum of space (infinitesimal to use newton's word), even if this makes sense in reality, I don't see that this means the universe is infinite in size.

But then regardless, I don't get this anyway:

Randy H says

So, again, if the Universe (the physical one, not the conceptually mathematical but only in our heads one) turns out to be finite, then that breaks a fundamentalist [evangelical-variety] tenant at the core.

Maybe because God is referred to sometimes as infinte ?

117   marcus   2012 Aug 7, 10:43am  

curious2 says

Meanwhile, evidence tending towards disproof continues to be catalogued:

I watched the video. At the end when he visits the fundamentalist school he attended as a young child, and goes to the chapel to deny the holy spirit, I couldn't help but be reminded of the Einstein quote I have shared a couple times before.

The fanatical atheists...are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who—in their grudge against the traditional 'opium of the people'—cannot hear the music of the spheres
-Albert Einstein

118   curious2   2012 Aug 7, 11:08am  

[...]

119   Randy H   2012 Aug 7, 11:09am  

@marcus

I was originally responding to Bap33, who believes in a very fundamentalist, classical interpretation of god from the king james bible. That interpreation of god is one that necessitates infinity. Though I suspect the response will be that, even if the universe is finite, god lies outside the universe. However, I think we may then preclude the possibility of an extra-universal god interacting with our physical universe in any observable way.

And on another note: you guys make it hard to be a skeptic, with your bedside manner and all. I mean you can't even co-exist as math geeks without pouncing on each other.

120   leo707   2012 Aug 7, 11:20am  

curious2 says

True, and even Richard Dawkins acknowledged he couldn't prove that there isn't a giant teapot orbiting the sun between Jupiter and Saturn.

Proving a negative, i.e., there is not a teapot...

curious2 says

OJ Simpson was acquitted of criminal homicide, but found liable for wrongful death, and there was no contradiction between the two cases: the criminal case required proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the civil case required proof by a preponderance of the evidence.

Proving a positive, i.e., OJ did commit the crime...

curious2 says

Both cases involved proof, based on empirical evidence, even though evidence may always be subject to different explanations with different likelihoods. Proof is often a bit like quantum mechanics, subject to theoretical uncertainty but proved to a level of probability.

Yes, and "proving" a positive is subject to a much lower "theoretical uncertainty".

curious2 says

If "proof" required proving beyond any conceivable doubt, then no case would ever be decided and the word would disappear from the language.

Agreed, that is why I am not saying that it is impossible to prove a negative, but the relative "ease" in proving a positive will assure that the word does not disappear.

121   leo707   2012 Aug 7, 11:23am  

marcus says

...traditional 'opium of the people'...
-Albert Einstein

I am not sure about Einstein's time, but today when someone refers to religion as the "opium of the people" they are branded as a "fanatical" atheist.

122   curious2   2012 Aug 7, 11:25am  

[...]

123   marcus   2012 Aug 7, 11:42am  

Randy H says

I mean you can't even co-exist as math geeks without pouncing on each other.

You don't know the history. Dan and I have argued over religion several times in the past. I was blunt with him about sounding arrogant, which is true, but it got really ugly after that. He's often a reasonable guy, but not with me. And it is very much my fault because I find his position childish and stupid and have said as much.

Spirituality and religion isn't going away any more than human suffering is. Anyone with an IQ over 30 knows that.

What makes more sense ? Arguing for better more sophisticated religions, and advocating for the many that already are ?

OR arguing that all religion is evil and that we all need to be atheists.

Dan might as well be an agent for the fundamentalists.

He has been just as much a jerk with me in discussions of other topics. And has said repeatedly (in discussions about logic) that I couldn't possibly be a Math teacher or have a masters degree in Math. Usually I don't even bite with his weak arguments, because they are either semiirrelevant or they are designed to change the subject in small ways. I guess that's what I get for pointing out his arrogance.

(which he can't deny by the way - it's either a huge part of his personality, or a huge part of the character he plays on Patnet)

The guy can be a world class jerk. Other times he sounds like a fairly smart guy. His emotional challenges seem to make him his own worst enemy (although again maybe that's only in this anonymous world). I don't think Patrick shows the number of people ignoring a person any more, but Dan was rapidly approaching 15.

I put him on ignore the other day, again after this:

Dan8267 says

Please people. As Marcus has said thousands of time, ................

Click it and it will take you to the thread if you have nothing better to do. He has accused me of trolling him, but notice he brings me into a conversation I was no part of with a silly sarcastic generalization of something I once said in an argument.

As I said, There's a history.

124   Randy H   2012 Aug 7, 1:31pm  

@marcus

Thanks for the response. I meant no disrespect to either of you from my part in this thread. You're both obviously intelligent. But I can see some history obviously exists and I will admit I had Dan on ignore for a while myself given his rather abrupt and unwarrented retort to some earlier discussions.

I also usually don't chime in on religious discussions because I count myself as one of the few remaining true Objectivists. But I also really like Bap33 and have seen his tolerance leak out during his weaker moments, so I got suckered into this one.

I appreciated your retorts to infinity. Very informative and a lesson that a sideways 8 isn't the antibody ignorance, no matter how you look at it.

125   Bap33   2012 Aug 7, 2:21pm  

nobody on here is all that bad. Even me. lol

I miss Surfer X. Sufer X used the F word like Picaso uses paint.

126   Randy H   2012 Aug 7, 2:28pm  

Fuck yea. I miss X.

127   MisdemeanorRebel   2012 Aug 8, 1:32am  

Battle of the Einstein Quotes:

Einstein penned the letter on January 3 1954 to the philosopher Eric Gutkind who had sent him a copy of his book Choose Life: The Biblical Call to Revolt. The letter went on public sale a year later and has remained in private hands ever since.

In the letter, he states: "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this."

Einstein, who was Jewish and who declined an offer to be the state of Israel's second president, also rejected the idea that the Jews are God's favoured people.

"For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/may/12/peopleinscience.religion

Einstein was an atheist pretty early on. His use of God in phrases like "God does not play dice" is a euphemism for the universe, which he did have a kind of "Awe" for.

The great Electron, respect for the awesomeness of the universe. That's not a religion. That's like "Holy Shit, the Sun is a huge fusion reactor. Whoa!" or "Damn, the light we see from every star in the sky is like, whoa, millions of years old."

128   MisdemeanorRebel   2012 Aug 8, 1:41am  

"The most beautiful emotion we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion that stands at the cradle of all true art and science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle. To sense that behind anything that can be experienced there is something that our minds cannot grasp, whose beauty and sublimity reaches us only indirectly: this is religiousness. In this sense, and in this sense only, I am a devoutly religious man."

Einstein worshiped what Carlin called the "Great Electron" - the mystery and seeming order of the universe. That was his "religion". He did not believe even in an impersonal God or Divine Architect.

129   MisdemeanorRebel   2012 Aug 8, 2:28am  

There are far better reasons to be good to each other without justifying it based on a 2000 year old Jewish Hippie Carpenter Zombie's divinity.

To wit:
* Equitable societies have better outcomes for everybody in health, education, happiness, longevity, rate of criminal behavior, and material wealth.
* Equitable societies are more stable and resilient in the face of adversity.
* Equitable societies are more dynamic and able to compromise and solve problems; inequitable societies are static, rely upon force and obedience, and prone to lie and propagandize in the face of adversity, as the winners in an inequitable society are terrified of losing wealth and status and resist any change or compromise that may cause them to fall down the ladder.
* Equitable Societies tend to atheism (Sweden, Norway).
* Inequitable Societies tend to religious belief (Africa, Middle East, much of South and Central America, Nepal, Burma, much of India, etc.).
* Religious belief innoculates those who are at the bottom rungs of an inequitable society, protecting the winners at the top rungs from change ("Opium of the People").

It's not a coincidence that Jesuits, Jews, Shi'a Mystics, and other, more freethinking/intellectual orders and religious groupings are accused of "Atheism" in Inequitable Societies. Whereas orders that defend the status quo historically - like the Dominicans ("The Hounds of God")- are celebrated in inequitable societies.

Read up on the history of the Jesuits - they were banned because they had (have) genuine concern for the poor and sought to change society along more equitable lines. IE the movie "The Mission".

Reducing belief in religion takes away a major tool and crutch of inequitable societies.

130   marcus   2012 Aug 10, 1:42am  

Interesting (but pathetic ) job by editors of this.

thunderlips11 says

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/may/12/peopleinscience.religion

The title says "Einstein's letter makes view of religion relatively clear."

But then later they say.

"His position on God has been widely misrepresented by people on both sides of the atheism/religion divide but he always resisted easy stereotyping on the subject."

""Like other great scientists he does not fit the boxes in which popular polemicists like to pigeonhole him," said Brooke. "It is clear for example that he had respect for the religious values enshrined within Judaic and Christian traditions ... but what he understood by religion was something far more subtle than what is usually meant by the word in popular discussion."

"Despite his categorical rejection of conventional religion, Brooke said that Einstein became angry when his views were appropriated by evangelists for atheism. He was offended by their lack of humility and once wrote. "The eternal mystery of the world is its comprehensibility."

In other words people like Dan and Thunderlips pissed him off.

131   MisdemeanorRebel   2012 Aug 10, 1:50am  

Brooke's interpretation of his beliefs. Einstein's direct quotes lead me to believe he had an underlying respect for the mysteries of the universe, some regard for the occasional better angels of religious tradition, AND NO MORE.

There are plenty of atheists who are either not interested in pushing their views or too wimpy to assert them, hiding behind a vague protestation of respect for religulous institutions.

Our numbers are legion, Marcus. It's time for the US to join the rest of the Western World and advance beyond superstition.

132   marcus   2012 Aug 10, 2:24am  

thunderlips11 says

Are numbers are legion, Marcus

okay...ewe can say that...

I would agree, but one form that might take would be having spiritual beliefs that aren't basically just superstition. Apparently this is what Einstein did.

133   MisdemeanorRebel   2012 Aug 10, 8:55am  

If experiencing awe in the face of the universe is a spiritual belief, then I too am spiritual. I mean that without sarcasm.

134   JodyChunder   2012 Aug 10, 9:03am  

I belief those who believe in equities and chuck their earnings into they 401K are a prime example of religious thinking,

135   curious2   2012 Aug 10, 9:53am  

I am learning from Patrick.net and forming a possible hypothesis about religious logic. I think a recurring syllogism goes something like this:
1) An omnipotent god somehow needs my help (this is an obvious impossibility, logically, but hold that thought);
2) The omnipotent deity will reward me if I help (virgins, goats, whatever);
3) The omnipotent deity is omniscient, too, and watching ME all the time, paying attention to ME;
4) I am a sinner, and the omnipotent deity knows this, so I must atone somehow, make feverish penance to avoid being punished for my sins;
5) I (or my parents, or my fellow cult members) know what the omnipotent deity most wants, which is to eradicate/persecute/otherwise discriminate against those other people who do not believe in Him/Her/It, or at least disagree about what he/she/it wants, and therefore are a threat to us, so we must protect our omnipotent god by persecuting them;
6) Therefore I will work at this endlessly, in my bubble of fact-proof armor, because every time I ignore facts and repeat nonsense and strike a blow against against those other people who must surely be worse than I am, the omnipotent deity sees me and pays attention to me and is pleased with me, and will store up more points in my favor to outweigh my sins.

136   Dan8267   2012 Aug 10, 11:15am  

marcus says

Okay well, of course I ignored you again the other day because of your obnoxious personality (again).

If I'm obnoxious to you it's because you warrant it.

marcus says

I predicted correcltly that it would be #2, #3 or a combination of both.

You're welcome to your opinion, but that doesn't make it a fact. Nor does it mean that anyone agrees with you. Plenty of people like my posts -- see the user stats -- so I sure as hell don't need affirmation from you.

marcus says

For the record, you are wrong, rational numbers are countably infinite.

No shit Sherlock. I mistyped, but it was obvious I meant "irrational" as they are the same order of infinity as the real numbers. You should have been able to figure out what I meant, but that would mean not jumping up an down with joy as you discovered a mistake. Granted, the mistake was in typing, not thought, but don't let that ruin your joy.

A trivial proof that the rational numbers are countably finite is to arrange them in a two-dimensional array with denominators for the rows and numerators for the columns. Then count them off diagonally from the top-left corner of the grid. You see, I do remember my abstract algebra.

marcus says

Dan8267 says

the "comes right before" question applies only to countably infinite

This is also wrong. Even for any two rational number you give me, it's simple to come up with one that is between them (actually an infinite number of rational numbers between them).

And your analysis would actually apply had I said the rational numbers aren't an ordinal set. But as you quoted, I said "applies only to countably infinite", which is exactly what you stated.

Sets of the second order of infinity may be scalar, but not ordinal.

Yep, I remember a lot of abstract algebra. You want to have a mathletes contest?

Anyway, I hope I didn't terribly ruin your fun of pointing out a typo. I know how much it means for you to find any flaw in me no matter how minor. So to make up for it, I'll let you know one of my personal flaws. I have little tolerance for stupidity.

OK, that flaw was obvious by the way I respond to all your postings, so let me give you another flaw. How about a physical one? My dick is too large for many women. There, run with it. Run with the idea, that is, not my dick. You probably wouldn't be able to run while carrying it.

137   Dan8267   2012 Aug 10, 11:24am  

marcus says

Even if the first sentence is true,

I'd actually point you to some good reading material if I thought you were even capable of sincerity and actually wanted to know more about physics. It's an area I've always been interested in and have read a lot about. However, you are probably just being your usual snarky ass, so fuck it.

If anyone else wants some reading recommendations, I'd be happy to offer them.

138   Dan8267   2012 Aug 10, 11:31am  

marcus says

What's that? THat there are are assholes out there that that are still doing what most people get over at the age of 15 or 16 ?

That is, challenging the logic of religious belief.

Over the past two thousand years, countless people have been murdered, raped, tortured, burned alive, and imprisoned because of religious beliefs. Anyone who says that challenging religious beliefs and using reason as an alternative to superstition is just plain retarded.

G.W. Bush said "God told me to invade Iraq" and after a million deaths we're not allowed to question the logic of religious beliefs?

Marcus,
http://www.youtube.com/embed/EwT4Rl2uGJY

139   Dan8267   2012 Aug 10, 11:36am  

marcus says

Fundamentalists are another story.

What fools like Marcus can't realize is that the term Fundamentalist is meaningless. It's just a marketing term.

There is no line between so-called fundamentalist beliefs and non-fundamentalist beliefs. It's a continuous spectrum of behavior from causal and infrequent crazy to constant and severe crazy.

Talking to fictional beings and having delusions of immortality is a mental disorder no matter how you label it.

140   Dan8267   2012 Aug 10, 11:52am  

Randy H says

I'm neither a mathematician nor a physicist. But Dan captured pretty much what I was trying to convey, and which marcus sort of jokingly hinted at: the physical universe is granular (or digital, if you will). Continuity is a wonderfully useful mathematical concept that helps figure out all sort'a'stuff. But at the quantum level, empirically observable things are not infinite. And somewhere I do recall that even adding lots and lots of zero-order things together are still zero-order sums.

Thankfully, another rationalist in this conversation to offset the b.s. spouted by Marcus.

Randy H says

I was originally responding to Bap33, who believes in a very fundamentalist, classical interpretation of god from the king james bible.

Does that include the mistranslations like

And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/ISaiah-34-7/

I'm pretty sure the unicorn was a Medieval myth, not a Bronze Age one.

Randy H says

But I can see some history obviously exists

Yeah, a long while back Marcus started making childish personal attacks on me on several threads. I ignored the first dozen, but then responded. Having a sharper wit than Marcus, I showed the community what an idiot he was and why.

Of course, that just made him even more belligerent to me. I did give him quite a few opportunities to save face by just agreeing to start talking like a rational adult, but he just kept flinging mud. After that went on for a while, Marcus pretended to offer an olive branch so he could back-stab me, but he doesn't quite have the intellect to be subtle. So I countered by responding in such a way that if he didn't make good on his peace-offering, he would look like a dumb ass. And of course he immediately went back to his childish ravings.

The thing is I'd be willing to bury the hatchet with Marcus, but he lacks the emotional maturity to do so. Still, I will admit to having a bit of fun making him look the fool. As I've admitted above, one of my personality flaws is that I have little tolerance for idiots and stupidity always brings out the asshole in me.

141   Dan8267   2012 Aug 10, 11:54am  

thunderlips11 says

If experiencing awe in the face of the universe is a spiritual belief, then I too am spiritual. I mean that without sarcasm.

Homo Economicus. A Legendary Creature, like Bigfoot, claimed to exist by Pseudoscientists.

I would argue that is an emotional experience. And yes, we atheists have such moments of awe frequently when looking at the universe or thinking about how it works. However, emotional experience do not imply the existence of anything supernatural. The mind itself is a wondrous work of nature. Well, maybe not Marcus's mind, but you get the idea.

142   marcus   2012 Aug 11, 3:16am  

thunderlips11 says

If experiencing awe in the face of the universe is a spiritual belief, then I too am spiritual. I mean that without sarcasm.

When you have the kind of intellect that allows you to boil down and summarize all of Einstein's thinking on religion and his actual spirituality to such a simplicity it must be hard to maintain your humility.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/einstein/

OF course those aren't all of his quotes on spirituality.

One thing for sure, Einstein was bothered by being pigeonholed as an atheist and he was tolerant of religious belief in others. He probably was the kind of person who had had many engaging conversations with rabbis and priests and understood that by and large, even many of them don't buy in to the superstition, or personal god nonsense, or literal interpretation of scripture that so many atheists love to ascribe to the typically religious adult.

143   Dan8267   2012 Aug 11, 4:18am  

Whether or not Einstein was an atheist is irrelevant. The whole discussion rests on the logical fallacy Appeal to Authority.

We don't accept The Theory of Relativity as correct because it came from Einstein. We consider it correct because the predictions it made such as gravitational lensing and time dilation have been confirmed.

Isaac Newton is admired for his successes in laws of motion, the laws of gravity, Calculus, and the application of mathematics to model the cosmos. Newton also believed in astrology and other hocus pocus. He is not admired for that.

Appealing to authority is bullshit, and it's one of the many fundamental problems with both religion and faith. Appealing to a god as a moral authority is the ultimate fallacy.

The messenger is irrelevant. All that matters is the message itself and the evidence to support that message.

144   Bap33   2012 Aug 11, 7:57am  

Dan8267 says

He is not admired for that.

ummm. no. YOU do not admire him for that. SOME others, that are not you, may admire him as much for this as for how he dressed. Right?

145   Bap33   2012 Aug 11, 7:58am  

Dan8267 says

pealing to authority is bullshit, and it's one of the many fundamental problems with both religion and faith.

... and human caused global warmingests

146   Dan8267   2012 Aug 11, 8:48am  

Bap33 says

... and human caused global warmingests

Yes, and the evidence backs that up. Only people who profit from destroying the future and fools who listen to them believe otherwise. How much money will you make by turning America's farmland into desert? Will it be enough to buy food when 2/3rds of America's population will have to starve to death? How much money does it cost to get a person to sacrifice his life for yours by giving you what little food he has?

Do the cost benefit analysis. Even if you don't give a shit about the immorality of destroying the environment for future generations, at least realize that it is highly unprofitable in the long run.

The costs of terraform the Earth so that it is once more suitable to sustain billions of humans far exceeds the slight increase in profits reaped by companies in the short term for dumping massive amounts of pollution into the air, land, and ocean.

Or think of it this way, every carbon-dioxide molecule released by burning fossil fuels is like a Mexican illegally sneaking into America's atmosphere driving up costs of everything for you.

147   Dan8267   2012 Aug 11, 8:54am  

Bap33 says

Dan8267 says

He is not admired for that.

ummm. no. YOU do not admire him for that. SOME others, that are not you, may admire him as much for this as for how he dressed. Right?

Yes, there are masses of people who re-create Newton's astrological charts and biorhythms. This is one of the first things any university teaches you.

148   JodyChunder   2012 Aug 11, 10:08am  

Dan8267 says

Yes, and the evidence backs that up. Only people who profit from destroying the future and fools who listen to them believe otherwise. How much money will you make by turning America's farmland into desert?

It was probably always baked in, though, Dan. Self-destruction is a fundamental part of our human ecology. Not to say that it is a blank check for trashing the place up, but jsut to say that it was inevitable that us homosaps would wrack up our habitat and ourselves, thus, paving the way and providing some fossil fuel for the next bunch of bi-pedal wack-a-nuts to have a go at whatever it is we're supposed to be having a go at...happiness? propagation? I have no idea. I am just looking for my next rental property!

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