patrick.net

Maybe the fetus should be able to abort its mother. An ultrasound of the fetus with a thumbs up or down!

Any modern Internet debate about abortion would be incomplete without this paper. Enjoy:

http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/03/01/medethics-2011-100411.full.pdf+html

msilenus says

http://jme.bmj.com/content/early/2012/03/01/medethics-2011-100411.full.pdf+html

We take ‘person’ to mean an
individual who is capable of attributing to her own existence
some (at least) basic value such that being deprived of this
existence represents a loss to her.

Certainly newborns have a significant level of self-awareness even though they are not yet capable of conversing about it. A fertilized egg and a fetus before the development of a brain, clearly are not. The gray area is between the start of the brain development and the starting of neural connections at 6 months.

What about the gay fetuses?

"Actually, the fertilized egg is alive as are the sperm and the egg. You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Life does not "begin" at implantation."

Life does begin at implantation, a cell is not a life, just because it is not dead doesn't mean it is alive. You are not entitled to your own "facts" either and self awareness is YOUR artificial measurement. You can't even test it. Self awareness is quite likely much different than brainwaves, besides if chimps are self aware your model is flawed.

I am not a person," because I have a mind." I lost that a while back. I guess t makes me the walking dead.

" I could use RNA instead of DNA. I could use a stem cell instead of an egg. And I could certainly create life without a "mother/host could use an artificial womb instead."

Prove it. Till then you are living in some fantasy world.

Vaticanus says

a cell is not a life, just because it is not dead doesn't mean it alive.

Zombie cells??

lostand confused says

Vaticanus says

a cell is not a life, just because it is not dead doesn't mean it alive.

Zombie cells??

Exactly, much like a biological robot preprogrammed to do a certain funtion(s)

Vaticanus says

Exactly, much like a biological robot preprogrammed to do a certain funtion(s

Well then the body -which is made of cells-is a biological robot preprogrammed to do a certain function too? By your logic, it is fine to destroy such a robot-as it is only a machine?

CaptainShuddup says

What about the gay fetuses?

What about them, if they even exists?

Vaticanus says

Life does begin at implantation, a cell is not a life, just because it is not dead doesn't mean it is alive. You are not entitled to your own "facts" either and self awareness is YOUR artificial measurement. You can't even test it. Self awareness is quite likely much different than brainwaves, besides if chimps are self aware your model is flawed.

1. A living cell is certainly alive. The fact that you disbelieve a truism is a clear sign that you are not thinking clearly.

2. Self-awareness is the internationally accepted standard of personhood and has been since René Descartes said, "I think, therefore I am.".

3. If you have a better criteria for determining personhood, then present it. Hint: Implantation is laughably weak as all mammals reproduce going through an implantation stage. Are you going to accept that all mammals are persons?

4. One can most certainly test self-awareness. I suggest that you learn more about the subject before making such definitive statements.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/W-pc_M2qI74

http://www.youtube.com/embed/WgJl4bONOqc

Hopefully, now that I've shown you the truth, you'll adjust your world-view accordingly.

5. Self-awareness most certainly is different from brainwaves, which is why I don't think consciousness starts with the first brainwaves measured at 6 weeks. Nevertheless, self-awareness is a function of the brain and the brain alone.

6. The fact that you discredit the premise that self-awareness is the criteria solely on the basis that chimps may be self-aware proves that you are putting your political conclusions before facts and reasoning. If you insist on reaching a specific conclusion regardless of the facts, then you are nothing but a bigot. To consider chimps to be non-persons, not because of their intelligence or sentience level, but solely because they aren't a part of your species is purely bigotry. And the opinions of bigots on any subject matter should be discarded.

Don't be a bigot. Admit that science has proved the self-awareness of other species on this planet. And if your religion prevents you from doing this, your religion is evil because how we treat other species is determine largely by how much we respect their personhood and right to live.

Vaticanus says

" I could use RNA instead of DNA. I could use a stem cell instead of an egg. And I could certainly create life without a "mother/host could use an artificial womb instead."

Prove it. Till then you are living in some fantasy world.

How Did Life Begin? RNA That Replicates Itself Indefinitely Developed For First Time

OK, now that I've proved it, will you have the emotional maturity to say:

I apologize for saying you live in a fantasy world. You were correct in stating that RNA can be used instead of DNA to perform the necessary life functions. This is something I would have known if I even cursory studied the subject of biology. I know realize that the scientific body of knowledge greatly exceeds my own, but I am fortunate enough to live in a time where that knowledge is at my fingertips. I intend to learn more about the subject matter so I can form more informative opinions.

That would be the face-saving move, which of course, means that you will not take it. They never do.

lostand confused says

Vaticanus says

Exactly, much like a biological robot preprogrammed to do a certain funtion(s

Well then the body -which is made of cells-is a biological robot preprogrammed to do a certain function too? By your logic, it is fine to destroy such a robot-as it is only a machine?

I hate to break this too you guys, but everything you do was determined by the initial conditions of the Big Bang. The universe is deterministic, but unpredictable. Nevertheless, that subject matter is a red herring as it has nothing to do with abortion.

Best argument for abortion: Look in a mirror.

Along the lines of Dan's argument, there is actually a religion that supports his postulate, but for reasons he has discounted. Muslims believe that on the 17th week of pregnancy the soul, or Ifrit, enters the fetus. For arbitrary dates, that's one that makes some sense. Babies can survive being born as early as 20 weeks with enough natal care. Clearly, then, a 20 week baby has achieved personhood.
However, if you use the chimp argument as to sentience, you would be performing 5th trimester abortions. That term being a euphemism for
Murder as it always has. It's not the realization of sentience that's important. It's the potential.
Human life is precious. If a human hasn't proven him/herself a serious threat to other humans, it shouldn't be arbitrarily ended. Anyone arguing that point should keep in mind that they had a mother and she could have made that choice.

As for the "we have no soul because that is a Christian myth." Dan, keep in mind that the grand majority of religions worldwide believe that some part of us remains after death. The names used as as varied as the languages, but every religion from Hindu to Shinto, from Buddhist to baptist, to Native American spiritualism: all believe in a soul.
I've never measured a soul on a scale, taken its mass spectrum in the lab, or read a specific voltage produced by one, but I am not so arrogant as to discount something that's been a part of human tradition for all recorded history and beyond.
After all, a LITTLE knowledge of a subject is a truly dangerous thing.

Dan8267 says

Certainly newborns have a significant level of self-awareness even though they are not yet capable of conversing about it.

Certainly you can support this. Certainly. (By "support," I don't mean "use the word 'certainly.'") What I posted up there wasn't some goddamned op-ed by a fool partisan-hack. It was a peer-reviewed paper in a bio-ethics journal. It's been proofed by people who aren't rank amateurs.

I've had two children and two cats. In any test of cognitive capability, I'd give my cats the edge against the newborns. That condition fails to hold within about a month, when the infants became capable of some kind of emotional involvement. The cats never mastered that trick.

Quigley says

Along the lines of Dan's argument, there is actually a religion that supports his postulate, but for reasons he has discounted. Muslims believe that on the 17th week of pregnancy the soul, or Ifrit, enters the fetus.

Haven't heard that myth, but my analysis regarding L2 still applies without change.

1. "A living cell is certainly alive."

I said a cell is not life, and that just because as cell is living does not make it life and I said it in the context of a conversation about when HUMAN LIFE BEGINS. I don't care what kind of cell you want to talk about, a cell is not human life. You can argue meaningless semantics all you want to stoke your feeble ego but that does not change what I said nor the fact that life begins, in a biological sense, at implantation.

2. Self-awareness is the internationally accepted standard of personhood and has been since René Descartes said, "I think, therefore I am."

Says you.

3. I would be happy to define a person, a created being with a body and soul.

4. You cannot definitively measure self awareness. Another way to say that is that self awareness can happen without anyone ever documenting it. You cannot possibly know who, or what is self aware. So your model is flawed at best.

5. "Nevertheless, self-awareness is a function of the brain and the brain alone."

Again, prove it. You seem to ignore the fact that you are utterly incapable of documenting every single evidence of self awareness. There could easily be beings that operate on a dimension at you cannot even detect, and you would never know it. They could be present in the room with you right now undetected by your physical senses. And they could be self aware and not even have a physical body. The point is as with number 4 YOU ARE UTERLY INCAPABLE OF MEASURING EVERY EXISTING BEING'S SELF AWARENESS. It is by definition a quality of the self. Some self aware beings will make themselves known, others will not.

6."you are nothing but a bigot."

And then the name calling and lies begin to get thick. Resorting to shameless name calling ought to be beneath any individual with rational and reasonable arguements. Seems like you are getting desperate.

Dan said "I could use RNA instead of DNA. I could use a stem cell instead of an egg. And I could certainly create life without a "mother/host". In principle, I could even create human life without a mother/host. I could use an artificial womb instead."

Dan, DNA and RNA are so similar as to be near mirror images of one another. So congratulations on another straw man argument. I never sought to debate that, remember we are talking about human life and when it begins here. It seems you have lost sight of the forest for the trees.
When you have taken DNA (or RNA), stem cells and an artificial womb and created a human being you will have some credibility. Until then you are just blowing hot air. You know for a fact that no person has ever come into existence under these circumstances. Hubris. But if you do, please invite me to your award ceremony, that one should be worth trillions. The highest bidder would love to have you make their clone army I'm sure.

I apologize for not being able to help you see just how much of a fantasy world you live in. You are more ignorant of reality than I had originally ascertained.

You live in a fantasy world where you believe you can create life from non-life. You believe that matter and energy plus time = life (no matter that you cannot explain where that matter, energy and time came from). This is your religion, this is your faith. Sorry, I don't have that much faith.

But I am in awe of your relentless pursuit of explaining away the reality that is right in front of you. That takes faith.

Dan8267 says

At what step, at what instant, does the cell go from 0% human to 100% human? Obviously the process is not instantaneous.

as I said, when the newely created cell, that is just the joined sperm and egg, completely split/divide into another cell - that matches the original sperm/egg cell - you have life.
In simple steps from my simple mind , there's the egg, here comes the sperm, the sperm makes it through the cell wall, the jelly mixes the DNA into matched sets, now we have a new complete cell, and when that cell re-creates itself, you have a new human life - no more, no less.

Dan8267 says

Actually, the fertilized egg is alive as are the sperm and the egg.

The healthy egg and the healthy sperm die in a short time if not joined together. The healthy fertilized egg dies 80 years later if it is not murdered in an abortion.

Like I said Dan, lets use you as an example ... you sit here as Dan, at age ??, and going backwards in time, in your life span, tell me when your cells stop being Dan.

For me, the issue is bodily autonomy. No person should have the right to use another for life support. For me, that is the violation. My organs service me. For me, it's a fifth amendment thing, pro-life legislation is effectively the government seizing a woman's body for the use of another and to serve its political agenda. It's like eminent domaine abuse, which I also oppose strongly.

futuresmc says

No person should have the right to use another for life support.

said no baby human ever

Vaticanus says

I said a cell is not life, and that just because as cell is living does not make it life and I said it in the context of a conversation about when HUMAN LIFE BEGINS.

Now you're just playing semantic games. How about defining "life" if you are going to use it in a non-standard way. By the way, what arbitrary definitions and diction you use, does not affect reality.

As I stated, human life is a continuum just like all life from every one of your ancestors going back to single-cell organisms, like it or not. Nature does not have to conform to your ideas of how it should behave.

Vaticanus says

I said nor the fact that life begins, in a biological sense, at implantation.

Not according to doctors or biologists, but hey, you're the pope.

Vaticanus says

2. Self-awareness is the internationally accepted standard of personhood and has been since René Descartes said, "I think, therefore I am."

Says you.

It's a more justifiable criteria for personhood than a ball of stem cells planting itself on a uterine lining. How the hell does that constitute a person? Conversely, if you remove a person's brain and destroyed it, leaving the rest of the body hooked up to life support, would you really still have a person or just a living vegetable?

Vaticanus says

I would be happy to define a person, a created being with a body and soul.

Prove that the soul exists. And then kill all the babies in the world so as to save their souls. See argument L2.

You can pretend that the soul exists all you want, but if it did, then abortion would be a moral duty.

Vaticanus says

You cannot definitively measure self awareness. Another way to say that is that self awareness can happen without anyone ever documenting it. You cannot possibly know who, or what is self aware. So your model is flawed at best.

Have you even watched the videos? Don't double-down on stupid.

Science, it's repeatable.

Vaticanus says

5. "Nevertheless, self-awareness is a function of the brain and the brain alone."

Again, prove it.

Gladly. Allow me to remove and dispose of your brain. I'll keep the rest of the body alive and well attached to life support.

The fact that you would even question this shows a complete lack of even basic knowledge. You do realize that this is the 21st century, right? We know stuff like what makes the sun rise and set, what makes the tides go in and out, and how things like electricity and life works. You're thinking of the 8th century when we didn't.

Vaticanus says

6."you are nothing but a bigot."

And then the name calling and lies begin to get thick.

It most certainly is bigotry to judge a creature as less than a person simply because it has dark skin. For the same reason, it is bigotry to judge a create as less than a person merely because of its DNA rather than because of the effect of the DNA. If the DNA makes the brain bigger and more complex, than that's a valid consideration. But simply to reject personhood based on genetics itself, rather than self-awareness, is bigotry.

And this bigotry matters. Some day we're going to create sentient artificial intelligence and if we don't acknowledge such AIs as persons, we will be bringing back slavery. Some day we're going to encounter extra-terrestrial life that is every bit as intelligent and self-aware as we are but living in a Stone Age culture. If we slaughter them for their planet's resources, we're guilty of genocide. Some day we're going to find self-aware life on this planet and if we fail to recognize them as persons we might make the mistake of slaughtering and eating them -- oh wait, that's not someday, that's today. Right now, as you and I are having this conversation, whales and dolphins are being slaughtered for food. If either are persons, then we are guilty of a Holocaust.

And that's why your bigotry is dangerous and unacceptable.

Vaticanus says

Dan, DNA and RNA are so similar as to be near mirror images of one another. So congratulations on another straw man argument.

You are so full of shit.

Vaticanus says

I apologize for not being able to help you see just how much of a fantasy world you live in. You are more ignorant of reality than I had originally ascertained.

If I actually respected your opinion or you as a human being, your attempt to hurt my feelings would have worked. As I've actually read your posts, I am quite glad that you despise me. Being hated by the loathsome is something one should take pride in.

Vaticanus says

You live in a fantasy world where you believe you can create life from non-life.

Yes, a fantasy world based on science instead of fantasies, er, supernatural myths.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/U6QYDdgP9eg

But hey, what the hell does Dr. Jack Szostak know about abiogenist. I mean, he's only a Nobel Laureate in medicine. And they hand out Nobel Prizes like Cracker Jack prizes.

Vaticanus says

You believe that matter and energy plus time = life

No I don't. But you clearly believe that a book that states slavery is good, women are the property of men, and a man can sell his daughter as a sex slave and she must "please the man who bought her" is the unquestionable authority on morality. Yeah, I'm the one that's fucked up.

Vaticanus says

no matter that you cannot explain where that matter, energy and time came from)

Yeah I can, in great detail. You see, in my high school we were taught physics. Turns out that physics is damn good at explaining time, space, energy, and matter.

But your ramblings do reveal yet another problem with religion. Religion causes irreparable brain damage. Things that are simple to explain like microwave ovens, the creation of elements, and the flow of the tides because unexplainable mysteries when children are exposed to the stupefying effects of religion. This is exactly why exposing children to religion is child abuse and even more dangerous than giving them drugs or alcohol.

Bap33 says

as I said, when the newely created cell, that is just the joined sperm and egg, completely split/divide into another cell - that matches the original sperm/egg cell - you have life.

Yes, but the sperm and the egg themselves are also life.

If I take a cell sample from your body, I can keep it alive for decades and it is life.

But whether or not something is life is not the same thing as whether or not it is a person.

Bap33 says

you have a new human life - no more, no less.

Whether or not something is "human life" has nothing to do with whether or not it is a person. Human life, as you described it, is merely life with human DNA. It is not DNA that makes you a person. It's what is built using that DNA.

Think of it this way. A blueprint for a house is not a house. The house is created, piece by piece, by transforming raw materials into the house using the blueprint as instructions. The blue prints are important because they guide the process, but the blueprints aren't what's valuable. A house isn't a house because of its blueprints but because of what was actually built.

Having human DNA doesn't make you a person. And to stress this point, consider injecting human DNA into a cow egg. Of course we could do this. We've injected spider DNA into goat eggs to create goats that produce silk in their milk. If we inject human DNA into a cow egg and create a viable offspring, is it a person?

The use of DNA as the sole criteria for establishing personhood is foolish and short-sighted. DNA itself is not a property of personhood. Self-awareness is.

Bap33 says

The healthy egg and the healthy sperm die in a short time if not joined together. The healthy fertilized egg dies 80 years later if it is not murdered in an abortion.

Eighty years is a short time as shown by this pie graph.

The use of arbitrary time spans is irrelevant when establishing personhood. Redwood trees live for hundreds if not thousands of years. Does that mean a redwood tree is more of a person than you are?

Longevity is not what bestows personhood.

Bap33 says

Like I said Dan, lets use you as an example ... you sit here as Dan, at age ??, and going backwards in time, in your life span, tell me when your cells stop being Dan.

When the neural connections in my brains are unwound by the reversal of time. It is precisely those neural connections that make me or you a person. And as I said in the original post, the dirty little secret about abortion that neither side will admit is that the forming of these connections, and thus personhood, is a process not an event.

No one wants to admit that personhood is a process rather than an instantaneous event because making it a long, drawn out process means that there will never be a black-and-white point where the atoms go from being a non-person to a person. Instead, there will always be a gray area and that gray area is an intrinsic property of the process of becoming a person.

Well guess what. Nature has no obligation to conform to your desire for ridged, clean divisions between person and non-person, human and non-human, life and non-life. Nature does not draw within the lines. Nature is fuzzy and messy, and you might as well get used to it, because she sure as hell isn't going to change.

Bap33 says

futuresmc says

No person should have the right to use another for life support.

said no baby human ever

He was being facetious, much like I often am.

So many words and yet so little intelligence in this argument, especially the subsequent comments after. If you want to have an intelligent reflection on when life begins and what defines a sentient being, you need to reflect on evidence in the biological and philosophical literature instead of acting like you're out in a field somewhere 2,000 years ago trying to make sense of the world. It's really hard to follow what you've written besides ramblings. And I'm sad to say that I actually wasted a few minutes of my life trying to sort through your arguments.

Cmvmph says

So many words and yet so little intelligence in this argument, especially the subsequent comments after.

You're free to make a counter-argument. All you've done is say you don't think what I've written is correct. You haven't explained what you think is incorrect, why you think it is incorrect, or what you think the truth is. Put simply, you've added nothing to the conversation.

However, you are welcomed to try again.

No abortions, Republicans need other people's children to fight their wars.

Personhood begins at birth or incorporation.

The "life starts at conception" argument does not hold water.

If I have a business idea in my head should it deserve corporate status too?

Peter P says

If I have a business idea in my head should it deserve corporate status too?

Bad analogy. Nonetheless, where life begins is irrelevant. What matters is where thought begins.