patrick.net

upisdown says

Contracts coming first has been the long term norm, but not really during the early 2000s.

Not too long ago, builders used to make "model homes" along with specs homes to sell right away. Now the model homes are up for sale long before the subdivision lots are sold and very few specs are going up. Even some "Parade of Homes" and "Homerama" showcase homes are languishing for years unsold.

upisdown says

You think that an old/older house should be priced the same as a new one?

I was refering to builders competing with houses that are only 5-10 years old.

HeadSet says

Not too long ago, builders used to make "model homes" along with specs homes to sell right away. Now the model homes are up for sale long before the subdivision lots are sold and very few specs are going up. Even some "Parade of Homes" and "Homerama" showcase homes are languishing for years unsold.

It costs a lot of money to maintain those model homes, and the developer/builder pays for that by passing on the cost to each and every one of their buyers. Yes, eventually those houses are sold too, but in all reality, isn't a model home a very inefficient waste of available resouces? Usually the parade of homes-houses are pre-sold, again as was the norm.

HeadSet says

You think that an old/older house should be priced the same as a new one?
I was refering to builders competing with houses that are only 5-10 years old.

A house 5-10 y/o, is still technically out of date compared to a new house, is it not?

zzyzzx says

No, but if I were to buy a new house, I would want it custom built so that I could have real plywood instead of tha engineered wood crap, real wood in place of particleboard, 2x6 or 2x8's on the exterior walls for extra insulation, and way less windows than all new houses have (since windows are energy inefficient and reduce your privacy).

Custom built does not guarentee that plywood is spec'd versus OSB, unless it is specifically spec'd. Particle board isn't used at all in any structural way in ANY house, but Masonite type stuff is for finishes. And, 2x6 or 2x8 walls isn't really even nescessary in most of the US. What determines the structural design is heating and cooling degree days(climate), and of course location.

Are you aware of some type of engineering study and testing that says OSB is an inferior product? Hint: the glue is the exact same in plywood(framing/structural) as OSB.

LiarWatch says

You want to make a distinction where there is none. If you believe there is one, DEFINE the word "custom" as it relates to building out a project.

LOL, some people just want to believe that "custom built" somehow = a gold plated shitter. It's a marketing gimmick, and it's usually aimed at potential top-end customers that can afford to "design" each and every room. And pay for it they do.

LiarWatch says

You want to make a distinction where there is none. If you believe there is one, DEFINE the word "custom" as it relates to building out a project.

Go on. Do it.

How about a project that has features, construction techniques, materials or design elements that are not commonly found in spec homes.

I want my home to be able to float in case of a flood. I want to incorporate the tree that is on the lot into the inside of the home. I want to use dovetail joints instead of nails. I want an interconnected whole-house aquarium system. I want all floors to be made of glass. I want the windows to be exact copies of a late 1700 example, made from the trees on my property. I want traditional plaster instead of drywall, lime mortar on the hand made bricks, made from the clay on the property.

And I don't want any power tools used in any part of the construction of the house.

LiarWatch says

Thank you for demonstrating you just don't know and don't want to know.

LiarWatch = Darrell ?

Another troll to ignore.

upisdown says

Are you aware of some type of engineering study and testing that says OSB is an inferior product?

Yes. Of course it is. You can tell by looking at it.

http://www.nachi.org/osb-plywood.htm

Compared to plywood, OSB swells more when it comes into contact with water, especially at panel edges. Swell is generally greater in OSB than in plywood due to the release of compaction stress in OSB created during the pressing of wood chips into panels. Swollen plywood will return to its nominal thickness as the wood dries, while OSB will remain permanently swollen, to some degree. Swelling is a nuisance because it can uplift whatever materials lie above, such as tile or carpet.
Plywood floors are stiffer than OSB floors by a factor of approximately 10%. As a result, OSB floors are more likely to:
squeak due to floor movement;
cause hard floor surfaces to crack (such as tile); and
result in soft, spongy floors.
Nails and screws are more likely to remain in place more firmly in plywood than in OSB.
OSB retains water longer than plywood does, which makes decay more likely in OSB than in plywood. Of course, tree species plays a large role in this determination. OSB made from aspen or poplar is relatively susceptible to decay. In one of the biggest consumer class-action lawsuits ever, Louisiana-Pacific (LP), a building materials manufacturer, was forced to pay $375 million to 75,000 homeowners who complained of decaying OSB in their homes.

So does anybody else have real experience? Or is this just going to be an endless stream of dipshits telling me I'm an idiot?

Kevin says

So does anybody else have real experience? Or is this just going to be an endless stream of dipshits telling me I'm an idiot?

Probably the latter.

Look, it sounds like you are already on top of things and have a good handle on what you are getting into. I'd say there isn't a whole lot more here for you. Best of luck with your project.

zzyzzx says

Compared to plywood, OSB swells more when it comes into contact with water, especially at panel edges. Swell is generally greater in OSB than in plywood due to the release of compaction stress in OSB created during the pressing of wood chips into panels. Swollen plywood will return to its nominal thickness as the wood dries, while OSB will remain permanently swollen, to some degree. Swelling is a nuisance because it can uplift whatever materials lie above, such as tile or carpet.

That's why it's not spec'd for exposure, isn't it. And, there's a minimum sub floor thickness or underlayment for tile because of flex/deflection issues. Swelling that affects carpet? Huh? Seriously?

zzyzzx says

Plywood floors are stiffer than OSB floors by a factor of approximately 10%. As a result, OSB floors are more likely to:
squeak due to floor movement

Seriuosly? Do you know what the 'squeak' is? It's the wood moving up and down on the nail. That's why subfloors are glued and screwed. It has more to do with deflection of the joist than anything.

zzyzzx says

Nails and screws are more likely to remain in place more firmly in plywood than in OSB.

What the nails or screws are nailed or screwed INTO is more important.

zzyzzx says

OSB retains water longer than plywood does, which makes decay more likely in OSB than in plywood.

They BOTH retain water/moisture. But, the glue is waterproof in OSB, and in framing-grade/structural plywood

zzyzzx says

OSB made from aspen or poplar is relatively susceptible to decay.

Plywood doesn't rot? NOW I've heard it all. That's some source, which after reading the stuff that you apparently pulled from it sounds that it sells or manufactures plywood or is some type of plywood industry rag.
If OSB is SOOOO terrible and according to you and your link, why is it used throughout the whole residential construction industy, and other types too???? And that architects nationwide spec it's use?????

Kevin says

So does anybody else have real experience? Or is this just going to be an endless stream of dipshits telling me I'm an idiot?

What is it you specifically want? Asking total strangers on the internet vague questions is wasting your time, and you should instead use that time and access to the internet to answer your own questions. And it's free.

Kevin says

So does anybody else have real experience? Or is this just going to be an endless stream of dipshits telling me I'm an idiot?

Hi: I have experience. I did exactly what you are describing, although on a far smaller budget (and also got a likely far smaller house). We finished the project in 2004, after spending about 2 years on it from start of talks with the architect to the end (which was not the end...). It was very difficult and trying, although much of that was my own stressing out over things.

I could write a book about it all. So much depends upon the team assembled, how well each know and understand the others, the levels of integrity (when the sh*t hits the fan, as it inevitably will in any large project, people's true colors come out).

The very short story is we got a beautiful house very close to what we had envisioned. There are only a few things I think did not turn out well, and they were the direct result of them not getting the same degree of attention in the concept and design phase as they deserved. Great work cannot be rushed and is only very seldom a happy accident.

It is also important to note that we built a very unmarketable 1080 sq ft one bedroom one bath. This is about 2/3 or maybe a little less from what we first planned, but we decided we would build only what the budget allowed, and the budget was a mortgage that could be comfortably repaid on one salary, just in case. As fate would have it, the week construction finished my wife was laid off...

I skimmed through the posts, and I think most of your questions are not yet relevant. For example, what kind of windows have the best warranty, etc. etc. If you are truly interested in having a high-quality custom build house, there is a huge amount of ground work to be done -- deciding the basic style, determining what size your budget will allow, finding an architect that you have a good rapport with. Once you have preliminary footprint and ideas about finishes, you can start to find a builder who you think will be a good fit (with you AND the architect) and then get an idea of how far apart the architects ideas are from the builders reality (it is the builder who will bring you down to earth vis a vis costs).

Then you begin the hard work of redesigning to bring it within budget. Construction is at least 18 months away (at least it was for us...).

One thing I remember is we set aside about 25% of the architect's fee (separate from his design costs) to allow us to hire him to be actively involved during construction to monitor and work with the contractor. It isn't as simple as just handing off the plans and thinking it will all work out fine, because it won't. Contractors make money by finishing things and getting on to the next project, not by taking great care to ensure the spirit of the plans are brought to life... This doesn't mean they will do shoddy work (at least the good ones take pride in doing fine work), rather that they are movers and doers, not contemplative types...

zzyzzx says

Yes. Of course it is. You can tell by looking at it.
http://www.nachi.org/osb-plywood.htm

LOL The assoc. of "certified" home inspectors? I think a licensed architect trumps a certified home inspector 24/7, to include professional standards and acccreditation, education, experience, industry R&D, etc., etc.

If you are close to Seattle there is Architects NorthWest: http://www.architectsnw.com/designServices/customHomeDesigns.cfm

They sell you the plans, the plan book, or the 11X17s.

The rest of it is pretty straight forward.

It's a great time to custom build, and there are a few builders here in Seattle, that are honest, and fair.

David Losh says

It's a great time to custom build, and there are a few builders here in Seattle, that are honest, and fair.

Since the housing bubble burst, one of the positive things that happened was that all the inexperienced mopes that came into that industry to make a quick buck, went away.

I think I already said this, but our plan is to go with an integrated design/build firm. Both the architects and the GC/CM work for the firm. A portion of the architect's fee is for them to be on site at least a certain number of hours per week.

swebb says

And I don't want any power tools used in any part of the construction of the house.

Milk shot out my nose.

David Losh says

If you are close to Seattle there is Architects NorthWest: http://www.architectsnw.com/designServices/customHomeDesigns.cfm

They sell you the plans, the plan book, or the 11X17s.

The rest of it is pretty straight forward.

It's a great time to custom build, and there are a few builders here in Seattle, that are honest, and fair.

That name sounded familiar, so I had to look it up. Now I remember that they had homes featured on fuckedarchitect.com

Kevin says

So does anybody else have real experience? Or is this just going to be an endless stream of dipshits telling me I'm an idiot?

I have experience in doing a lot of work on building an in-law. Watched my dad and sister design and build onto houses and build a tiny house. It always takes longer than promised with cost overruns. It really does help if you or someone you know can watch critical steps to make sure they are not cutting corners or doing work that will not hold up in the long run.

My grandfather built his own house on a couple acres in Middletown--he put in an industrial size septic and an in-wall vacuum cleaner system for each room that emptied into a container in the garage.

If I had your budget, I would go with a Dwell, Blu or another pre-fab home--I love the modern lines and you can customize.

http://www.dwell.com/homes/
http://www.bluhomes.com/
http://www.fabprefab.com/

rufita11 says

an in-wall vacuum cleaner system for each room that emptied into a container in the garage.

I don't understand this. What advantage would it have over a modern lightweight vaccum like a dyson?

rufita11 says

If I had your budget, I would go with a Dwell, Blu or an other pre-fab home--I love the modern lines and you can customize.

Why would you go that route?

The blu lines that I would actually consider are all $300+ /sf, not even including the cost of the foundation. Upgrading to NanaWalls cost $35k, but they're only about $9k retail and maybe $12k at inflated GC prices for instance. $9k to upgrade from ceramic tile to slate in a 12x12 kitchen?

The layouts are all pretty mediocre too.

As near as I can tell, Blu caters to people who live in Napa and don't really think about cost. $500k for a 2000sf prefab seems like a crappy deal compared to homes I know of that cost significantly less (including foundation, garage, site clearing, etc.)

I saw one in my old Berkeley neighborhood an loved it. That's the only reason I would do it. I would bargain hard or go with another similar pre-fab. I do think it's the way to go though.

I don't get the vacuum thing either, but it was cool to watch it in action. Maybe he saw it somewhere and just had to have it.

swebb says

LiarWatch says

Thank you for demonstrating you just don't know and don't want to know.

LiarWatch = Darrell ?

Another troll to ignore.

=War=RealtorsAreLiars=....

I'm doing a massive remodel of a turn of the century church, doing the ultra modern thing on the inside. It's fun and overwhelming at times.
A bit of advice: I would recommend subscribing to fine home building their online library is a fantastic source for research. Buy a crap ton of books, pattern language By Christopher Alexander is thought provoking, residential interior design by Maureen Milton was helpful, renovating old houses by George Nash is an amazing book everyone should read, Not so big solutions, by Sarah Susanka is good. Set up an account on houzz and start clipping pictures like mad. Be prepared to think your significant other is a Martian based on their design ideas. Architects and interior designers are just over priced marriage councellors at times.
Think about installing radiant heat, a security system, a range hood with a remote mounted blower, central vac and a whole house fan instead of a.c.

Definitely read this: http://www.ahousebythepark.com/journal/

Think about a wood burning fireplace, there are zero clearance units that work well with a modern aesthetic, and gas fireplaces are lame.

Buy a gross of legal pads, sketch and make lists like a maniac.

Don't put in stainless appliances or granite countertops, it's over people it's over.

Be prepared for decision fatigue, and thoughts of suicide if you have to look at one more tile sample.

Good luck and thank you for wanting to do more than throwing up yet another suburban shit box.

P.S. the book and the website are good comic relief if you start taking modern design too seriously, http://unhappyhipsters.com/post/10522891099/uh-family-guess-what-we-wrote-a-book-just

unstoppable says

Buy a crap ton of books,

Exactly how much is a "crap ton"? Is it kind of like a troy ounce compared to an ounce?

I know, long time listener, first time caller, right?

Kevin says

I think I already said this, but our plan is to go with an integrated design/build firm. Both the architects and the GC/CM work for the firm. A portion of the architect's fee is for them to be on site at least a certain number of hours per week.

So, you've already hired somebody. Questions are pretty much a moot point now, huh. And they're aimlessly directed at the wrong people.

Kevin says

homes featured on fuckedarchitect.com

That's true, and they haven't upgraded much since the bust.

There are resources however, and if you get stuck you can contact Dexter Chaney, http://www.dexterchaney.com/

You seem to have all of the facts.

I would hire a contractor that does the style you like, and discuss with them when you are ready.

We've done it, and baby sat a couple of projects. That was over ten years ago.

Best of Luck

Kevin says

I don't understand this. What advantage would it have over a modern lightweight vaccum like a dyson?

Dust, not weight, is the issue.

A vacuum cleaner by its nature exhausts fine dust. Central Vacs have the canister in the garage, so the fine dust is not exhausted in the living areas. I am not familiar with Dyson technology, but it would have to exhale air somehow,

unstoppable says

Think about installing radiant heat, a security system, a range hood with a remote mounted blower, central vac and a whole house fan instead of a.c.

I was thinking about going heat pump / no AC. Our neighbors did that and they seem happy, but I don't have any first-hand experience.

My wife wants radiant but I'm skeptical.

Definitely read this: http://www.ahousebythepark.com/journal/

I've read it. The firm he used is one of the ones I'm strongly considering.

Think about a wood burning fireplace, there are zero clearance units that work well with a modern aesthetic, and gas fireplaces are lame.

I guess I just don't get it. My wife loves fireplaces, I think they're more trouble than they're worth.

Don't put in stainless appliances or granite countertops, it's over people it's over.

I'm not a big fan of granite. I'm leaning towards quartz. I don't see what good alternative there is to SS though. For some appliances you can do the cabinet panel thing, but that's not really an option for ovens. I hate the fingerprints of SS, but I hate the trendy stuff GE and friends are trying to replace it with even more. I want something with a fingerprint-resistant finish. SS has its flaws, but it's a pretty timeless finish. Those viking ranges from the 80s still look fantastic today.

Kevin you are right about the 80's Viking ranges looking timeless, unfortunately they're new stuff looks retarded. If you like the look of old Vikings and wolfs consider a bluestar, simple design and they come in any color you want, mine is white. I bought all panel ready appliances except for the range.

If you go with a heat pump you will have ac, a heat pump is just a fancy ac compressor that can put heat in either direction. All though the new versions are reasonably efficient I would be hesitant to heat my house with electricity. If your property is serviced by gas go with that, with all the fracking and what not, gas prices are projected to be in the gutter for years to come. I went with hydronic radiant, due to the efficiency of heating vaulted spaces, space saved by removing ductwork, and being able to walk barefoot on warm floors in the winter.

As for fireplaces, open your eyes man, a roaring fire and a glass of chardonay is kryptonite for women, you might not even have to bother with foreplay.

Kevin says

I was thinking about going heat pump / no AC. Our neighbors did that and they seem happy, but I don't have any first-hand experience.
My wife wants radiant but I'm skeptical.

Your architect at the D/B firm will tell you which one is more beneficial to your area, cost to install and the liecycle costs to operate/repair.
The same goes with a fireplace, as most people don't even use it anyway.
You have a lot of wants and are undecided about some things that you need to tell that architect so that he can adjust his design to incorporate them. Apparently the budget isn't a constraint for you.LOL

Interesting.

We have this long thread about building custom homes, and no mention of:

Geothermal
Bamboo flooring or other renewable material
Solar roofs
Solar hot water
“Net Zero” (Putting as much electricity into the grid as taking out over the course of a year)
Green design, such as eaves position for more sun in winter and less in summer
Gray water or other recycling features
Rain water catchment
Drip irrigation for lawns
Sustainable gardening
Permeable sidewalks and driveways to decrease runoff
Locally procured building materials
Green roofs (looks like a yard up there)

Perhaps the libs on this blog limit themselves to just being Democratic Party fan boys, along with the idea that believing in “Global Warming” is sufficient green cred and thus no real action is needed.

Although I am very right wing, I want my libs to be LIBERAL. I am not comfortable with the idea that some conservation actions I take put me to the left of you guys. To compensate, maybe I should rent an Excursion to haul home some rain forest wood and elephant tusk ivory to build a countertop.

HeadSet says

Geothermal
Bamboo flooring or other renewable material
Solar roofs
Solar hot water
“Net Zero” (Putting as much electricity into the grid as taking out over the course of a year)
Green design, such as eaves position for more sun in winter and less in summer
Gray water or other recycling features
Rain water catchment
Drip irrigation for lawns
Sustainable gardening
Permeable sidewalks and driveways to decrease runoff
Locally procured building materials
Green roofs (looks like a yard up there)

You typed about every form of marketable crap that you know. Most of those are self evident, and the rest are basically useless. Have you been reading the Treehugger website or Mother Earth news lately?

HeadSet says

Locally procured building materials

Is that in there for amusement or were you really serious?

I can give you some advice there from experience... If you can get the land at a good price, you can build at a cost effective rate. Best part is emotional here, not financial, you get exactly what you want and how you want it.

If you never done this though, hire a professional builder to manage the project otherwise you are risking someone running off with your money and materials.

Your expenses will be materials, management fees (usually 10% of the cost on lower cost projects), labor costs, trash pick up, and insurance. If your project is long you might want to figure out a way to secure materials, as those get stolen at construction sites very often and are not cost effective to insure.

Send me a message if you have some questions, I'll help out as much as I can. Advice is always free.

I would not advice prefabs, prefabs are generally lower quality. They use cheaper materials to build them, and often standard plans (take it or leave it kind of deal).

HeadSet says
Locally procured building materials

Be very aware of guys who "procure local materials", especially if they show up at your construction site.

FortWayne says

I can give you some advice there from experience... If you can get the land at a good price, you can build at a cost effective rate.

How prophetic. And obvious.

FortWayne says

Send me a message if you have some questions, I'll help out as much as I can. Advice is always free.

And that's what it's worth.

Kevin says

We're looking to buy a few acres of land and then spend ~$800k to build the thing (architecture, land prep, construction, etc.)

Does anyone have experience with having a custom home built (particularly modern design; no shingles or crown molding here)? Was it worth it compared to what you could have bought for the same amount of money? How was the financing?

I have some experience, but lets be clear here, buying a house in a development where you get to pick options for you new home is NOT a custom house. A custom house is something you build yourself, you can be your own general contractor (the cheapest method) where you hire all the subcontractors (the framers, the roofers, electricians, etc., or you can hire a general contractor and they are responsible hiring the sub contractors and charge you (much more expensive, but less hassles for the inexperienced).

After buying some property, you need to get some building plans for the house you want to build, this can either be from a firm that sells house plans or hiring an architect for a custom house. If you get plans from a house plan book/website, expect to pay about $1,000 a plan set, usually you need at least 3 sets of plans to build a house. One set is needed for the building department to get the permits you need, a set for the bank, another set is for the building contractor, and usually the electrician and plumber get plans related to what they are installing. If your hiring an architect, expect to buy 10% to 15% the cost you the house your building, so if you spending 500k to build a house you could pay as much as 75k to an architect. The architect will hire an engineer to make sure the house isn't going to fall apart, should be able to provide you with a building list of materials you need and an estimate of a budget, etc.

For financing you need to get a construction loan / Mortgage. This mortgage has a higher rate than a regular loan. The bank usually releases the money to you 1/3 at a time, and inspects to make sure the work was completed before releasing the next 1/3. Since the mortgage is secured by a house and you really don't have a house yet, they are considered more risky for the bank. Once the house is completed, you should be able to convert the mortgage into a standard mortgage with a lower rate.

My father build his own house and was able to use building plans from two different sources and combine them to get what he wanted. So he didn't spent ten of thousand of dollars to hire an architect. Since he was a house builder by trade, I guess the township allowed him to do this without having to hire a structural engineer to make sure the house wouldn't collapse. But it's unlikely a typical inexperienced person would be able to get away with this.

On the plus side of things, you can build a house that really suits what you want. Usually custom houses are much better construction than typical tract development house. The house I live is a custom house, but I didn't build it. The roof joists are 2x8's, where as most tract houses use 2x4's for roof joists (but they are engineered with cross bracing) The advantage with the custom house I have, is the attic space is available to convert into living space and part of it is. I have stairs leading up to my 3rd floor and have a finished room on the one side of the attic and storage on the other side. If it was a tract house, the cross bracing would take up most of the attic space. I've installed a ceiling fans for my sister, who lives in a town house and while the attic was tall enough to make into living space, it was a nightmare of cross bracing.

As Fort Wayne pointed out, houses under construction are often the target of thieves and sometimes vandals. A co-worker of mine build there own house and lived in a trailer on the building site for almost a year while they were building the house. At the very least have decent security camera system installed so you can watch your property when you not around and record any illegal activity.

Kevin, thank you so much for bringing this up.

This is the ultimate web site of custom home development. This guy, of course has unlimated resources, and his web sites are his business.

This site answers all of your questions, and maybe more: http://www.ahousebythepark.com/journal/

TechGromit says

I have some experience, but lets be clear here, buying a house in a development where you get to pick options for you new home is NOT a custom house. A custom house is something you build yourself, you can be your own general contractor (the cheapest method) where you hire all the subcontractors (the framers, the roofers, electricians, etc., or you can hire a general contractor and they are responsible hiring the sub contractors and charge you (much more expensive, but less hassles for the inexperienced).

Yes, this is what we're doing. We're most likely hiring an integrated firm, though we're also considering doing design + GC as separate bids.

Darrell In Phoenix says

$500k for a house? Seriously?

Yes, that's what houses cost to build in parts of the country where people actually want to live with finishes that they actually like. That's about $150/sf for a large family home, which is low/mid range here.

Have you ever build a high end home in a part of the country with high labor costs? I haven't found a single builder after talking with 6 different ones who thinks that they can build what I want for under $150/sf (and most think $150/sf would only work if I like linoleum and IKEA cabinets).

David Losh says

Kevin, thank you so much for bringing this up.

This is the ultimate web site of custom home development. This guy, of course has unlimated resources, and his web sites are his business.

This site answers all of your questions, and maybe more: http://www.ahousebythepark.com/journal/

See previous comments on that house. His builder is one of the ones I'm talking with.

Kevin says

See previous comments

My interest in this thread is that it proves that Darrel, War, and Stop Lying have nothing to contribute to a discussion on construction.

You posed a good question, and rather than provide insight, or resources, these people chose to troll.

For my money, this was worth the price of admission.

Yes, I see the comment now, but it is so obscured by nonsense it's hard to see.