patrick.net

Actually if you read about the sea lice - the wild salmon lose those lice when they swim back up into the fresh water rivers to spawn because the sea lice are salt water only. But then when the baby salmon come back out to the ocean they swim by the salmon farms and pick up more parasites because the parasites concentrate around the fish farms which are in close proximity to the mouth of the rivers. That alone kills off a certain amount of wild salmon.

I have been up to the fish hatchery in Folsom and I have to say that even 30 years ago when we went I wasn't too thrilled with what I saw. The fish were crammed together like 4 inches apart - well close enough not to have much room to move in. Some of the fish were losing scales, some had things hanging off of them and some had like this cloudy film of something on them. Not all the fish had problems - just some of them but I had never seen sick looking fish before.

Wild fish that I have seen look much healthier. At least they did in the past.

I know - all our food is pretty much polluted anymore. That's why I try to get grass fed beef and organic chicken. Although - I think chicken meat has gotten kind of mushy and less tasty in the last few years. You shouldn't be able to just poke your finger through a piece of raw chicken so easily. And ideally you should get a whole chicken with the actual liver from that chicken so you have an idea as to how healthy that chicken was.

As for why I question what the salmon eats. Well I guess I believe animals should eat their natural diet. At least the salmon is geared to eat fish. It may not be able to digest chicken feathers and chicken guts. Plus it's just adding more possible problems to the mix. Even if I could raise the salmon myself in a special fish tank -I would not be feeding them chicken guts and feathers. I would be feeding them small fish and insects and stuff more like that. Plus they are putting some pretty high powered antibiotics in the salmon feed along with the dye. They swim in dirty water, they don't move much and whatever. It just makes me lose my appetite. Like I said it's my choice.

I'm rethinking how I feel about farmed fish. At least certain types. I'll be checking into how the types of fish are raised anymore before I buy them.

I probably only eat the equivalent of 4 or 5 chicken drumsticks in a whole week anymore. I'm eating more soups and stews and beans and rice these days. If mangoes and avocados didn't cost so much I would say that Carribean black beans over brown rice with avocado mango salsa makes for a pretty good substitute. I mean it makes a great substitute but it's not necessarily cheaper.

Zlxr says

you would think it would be better for us people to take the 3 lbs of fish instead of feeding them to the salmon to get 1 lb. of salmon.

I like salmon. You are free to eat the crap that they are feeding to the salmon, but please do not force me to eat it. I doubt it's anything you would want to eat.

Zlxr says

I know - all our food is pretty much polluted anymore. That's why I try to get grass fed beef and organic chicken. Although - I think chicken meat has gotten kind of mushy and less tasty in the last few years. You shouldn't be able to just poke your finger through a piece of raw chicken so easily. And ideally you should get a whole chicken with the actual liver from that chicken so you have an idea as to how healthy that chicken was.

As for why I question what the salmon eats. Well I guess I believe animals should eat their natural diet. At least the salmon is geared to eat fish. It may not be able to digest chicken feathers and chicken guts. Plus it's just adding more possible problems to the mix.

Your thoughts seem to be very muddled. We are talking about genetic modification. The living conditions of animals and what they are fed certainly is an issue, but it is a completely unrelated issue. Salmon was farmed before GM was even invented. If you are against raising fish on farms, that's a valid issue. What does it have to do with GM?

As for the GMO salmon mixing with wild salmon.

Apparently 1 - 5% of the GMO salmon are fertile.

As far as just breeding goes - salmon are attracted to each other by size. GMO female salmon are larger so the wild male salmon may just go wasted on pairing up with a GMO female and trying to mate with sterile female eggs. This would leave the wild female salmon alone laying unfertilized eggs and this would pretty much decimate the wild salmon population after a few generations.

Out of the GMO females that do succeed in breeding - who knows. The GMO males are inferior and wouldn't be good breeding stock and they say they aren't creating any GMO male stock - so we don't know what we'd get if we got a GMO - Wild Salmon Cross. There are 2 new genes in the mix and the females are somehow not sterile when they should be - so we don't know how these characteristics will express themselves when mixed back with the wild population.

The worst case would be a Giant fish that invades and eats everything in site - that ends up also being an inferior fish that dies young. Or that is also sterile.

Other possibilities are that it wouldn't be so bad but that the whole wild salmon population would be so altered that it couldn't be taken back to what it was.

And also since there is a patent on GMO fish - does that mean that Monsanto or whoever = then owns all the fish that end up with GMO DNA??????

Another train of thought that was brought up was that there are companies who are gearing up to - or trying to own streams and rivers for hydroelectric purposes and that the salmon get in their way. Therefore - they would prefer that all salmon be farmed and bred in captivity and leave the waterways clear for them to utilize.

Another thing to think about is all the wildlife that feed off of spawning salmon. Without the salmon - where will the bears and the eagles and the wolves etc. turn to for their food? Will it bring them into our backyards more often? Or will they just die off too?

Also - I didn't know that Atlantic Salmon was referring to a type of Salmon. I thought it meant where they were farmed. Anyway - they are growing the Atlantic Salmon over here on the West Coast up in British Columbia. I don't know if they are the GMO's - but they are huge especially compared to the wild caught.

Homeboy - how did they insert the argument gene into you? Did you just take a pill or did they give you a shot in the butt?

Zlxr says

Homeboy - how did they insert the argument gene into you? Did you just take a pill or did they give you a shot in the butt?

I got a shot of logic and common sense. You should try it.

@donjumpsuit: Very interesting, I didn't realize folks were directing with such precision these days.

For the doomsday folks who may recall the 70s when it was said that we'd run out of oil and natural gas in the 90s, aluminum in 2003, population boom and starvation, global cooling would cause us to freeze to death and so on. None of this happened and in fact human ingenuity found ways of finding more resources and made it cheaper to get to boot!

Matt Ridley has written a book called, "Rational Optimist" in which he describes his perception of why this is true. It's about things like how many dumb people in a room come up with better ideas and solutions than many smart ones in a room if the former are allowed to communicate and share ideas and the later don't communicate. How top down authoritative paradigms extinguish this (why I am slightly more conservative than liberal) and uses what he calls "idea sex" meaning that ideas are crossed in a similar fashion as genetics by Homo sapiens resulting in better and more robust versions of society.

It might make some folks feel better about all the change (which is uncomfortable to me as well) that is going on:

http://www.rationaloptimist.com/

Rational Optimist
The Rational Optimist: How Prosperity Evolves

Published: May 2010 (All day)

A counterblast to the prevailing pessimism of our age, and proves, however much we like to think to the contrary, that things are getting better.

Over 10,000 years ago there were fewer than 10 million people on the planet. Today there are more than 6 billion, 99 per cent of whom are better fed, better sheltered, better entertained and better protected against disease than their Stone Age ancestors. The availability of almost everything a person could want or need has been going erratically upwards for 10,000 years and has rapidly accelerated over the last 200 years: calories; vitamins; clean water; machines; privacy; the means to travel faster than we can run, and the ability to communicate over longer distances than we can shout.

Yet, bizarrely, however much things improve from the way they were before, people still cling to the belief that the future will be nothing but disastrous. In this original, optimistic book, Matt Ridley puts forward his surprisingly simple answer to how humans progress, arguing that we progress when we trade and we only really trade productively when we trust each other. The Rational Optimist will do for economics what Genome did for genomics and will show that the answer to our problems, imagined or real, is to keep on doing what we've been doing for 10,000 years -- to keep on changing.

You also might like The Skeptical Environmentalist by Bjorn Lomborg:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Skeptical-Environmentalist-Measuring-State/dp/0521010683/ref=sr_1_sc_2?tag=patricknet-20&ie=UTF8&qid=1356916998&sr=8-2-spell

He points out that most measures of human welfare (life expecancy, infant mortality, pollution) have actually been improving in the long term (decades to centuries) in spite of all the dire predictions of doom.

Thanks Pat! That does look to be a good read. I particularly liked seeing this, "He supports his arguments with over 2500 footnotes".

Not sure I'd have the time in my lifetime to follow up on those though. ;^)

Thanks Just Passing,

While I could see where GMO could certainly have some uses - I still think we need to go slowly and test what we create to make sure that we don't screw things up.

My 3 biggest concerns are actually that the current laws will encourage someone to create a new version of a good thing just so they can patent the DNA and own something they really don't have any business changing.

And second of all - if Monsanto really believes what they create - then they should stand behind their inventions instead of having the purchasers of their seeds sign contracts and take the responsibility for what the seeds might do.

And 3rd - if their patented DNA gets into another person's plant because their DNA pollen drifted over - then they should be at fault for polluting - not the plant that acquired the DNA through natural means.

So you could say my biggest issue is with greed and the desire to own nature.

And while scientists love a challenge and will try to create whatever they are asked to create - we have to be more realistic as to what we are creating. And at least observe and test to make sure it's a good addition to other life forms here on earth.

I don't believe that alfalfa needed to be GMO.

I think that instead of making Round Up Ready seeds and using so much Round Up - they should have pursued ways to get the weeds to sprout so they could spray once or till them under BEFORE they plant the crops. Did they even think of that approach before they did what they did? And I would like to know what that gene did if it made any other differences in the plants that were GMO'd for Round Up Readiness.

I question why they invented an apple that doesn't turn brown when it's cut open. Does this mean they are working on cows that produce chocolate milk and salmon that grow up with that already smoked flavor?

From what I have seen so far - it would appear that Monsanto (not necessarily their scientists) are not being as careful or as forthcoming as I think they should be.

There does seem to be an increase in allergies - especially peanut allergies (in children I know of under the age of 5). And I have concerns.

I'm not totally blaming GMO - I just think that inventors don't always think of every aspect of what they have created. I might have weird ideas or questions - but if my concerns are honestly considered and someone can honestly show me that something is really and truly better or completely safe - then I have no problems.

Also - when it comes to grubs that live in the ground and attack plants.

Do they even consider that possibly tilling the ground and letting Guinea Hens or something run around and eat the grubs - or say use some Diatomaceous Earth might work better. I'm not saying these will even work. But just because a chemical company specializes in chemicals doesn't mean that more chemicals is better than trying some of these other things.

Zlxr says

Do they even consider that possibly tilling the ground and letting Guinea Hens or something run around and eat the grubs -

The basic problem is that agriculture has really become an industrial enterprise. The scale of production of corn and soybeans is such that given current conditions, practices that might work on a few acres are simply impractical on the scale that ag. is practiced in the the major crop producing areas.

If you are referring to the corn rootworm there is a very simple practice that can be used. One simply plants corn one year and soybeans the next. This simple rotation almost completely eliminates the need for rootworm insecticide or GMO BT corn. It simply breaks the cycle of the insect. However, given that corn in recent years has been (on good quality land) far more profitable then soybeans farmers opt to plant continuous corn. This has proven to be extremely lucrative, many farmers have gotten rich in the last 5 or so years by growing corn. Thus BT corn has really become very popular as you do not need to use insecticide with it on continuous corn.

People still think of farmers as hayseeds with chickens pecking around the yard, tending gardens. Hell, most people think sweet corn sold in supermarkets is the same corn raised on millions of acres crop land. Most farmers today are sophisticated business people, marketing their crops with the use of the futures markets, operating hundreds of thousands of dollars of very complex equipment with huge capital investments in grain storage and or livestock complexes.

I do not think farmers are hayseeds.

I realize you take huge risks because you have to buy seeds and fertilizer and all kinds of stuff and then the weather can go haywire and you can lose everything. Or you miscalculate how much you'll get for your crop. Believe me I do have an idea of what can go wrong. Even on a small scale - I have seen what rain and gophers and deer can do. Not to mention gopher holes that detour all the irrigation water down the hill and wash out rows of garden. As kids we got paid for catching gophers so I know all about setting the traps and stuff like that. I realize that gets expensive for large scale farming but it's the safer healthier way to get rid of gophers (other than snakes and cats) just like it's technically better to pick off tomato hornworms by hand.

We have lots of people with no work to do, we should by rights pay more for food (and less for medical) and it's getting kind of obvious that good cheap food is a thing of the past.

However, if we want to have a sustainable food source - I think we have to think beyond just modifying a plant and using chemicals just because it is easier and more expedient.

And to be honest - if all you farmers only cared about $$$ you would grow marijuana instead of food because a few pot plants would make more money than a few acres of hard work raising something else does. So I really do appreciate what you are trying to do.

I don't know what's feasible and what's doable - so I guess it would be nice to sit down and think it out and see what can be done.

Such as - would it work if farmers who owned lot's of land could rent out acreage to people who could/would be willing to do more intensive work and try less chemicals and more natural means.

If you can't go that route - would it work if groups of people who wanted more organic produce - worked out some kind of enterprise with the farmers so that you grow what they want - but they also help with some of the risk and maybe even take some time out to contribute some help on occasion.

Sometimes I think I would like to have a couple acres so I could grow my own food - but it does require the expense of a fence, figuring irrigation which gets expensive with treated water, and then maybe I can't grow some of everything I want to grow. So then I think it would be nice to have access to some land and plant some trees and grow some produce and maybe swap produce with someone else who might want to trade with something I have. But if I'm going to grow trees then I need something long term - and yeah I might get too old to prune the high up branches and pick all the fruit so I might want to pay for a little help. And I might want to can some of the fruit and veggies and I might want to dehydrate some of it and a small community of like minded people might make it easier. Not to mention that someone who has been farming for longer than I have - might be able to teach me a thing or 2.

If you're out in farm country in the midwest - you're probably laughing at me. But here in CA an acre of land could easily run $170,000 per acre. Depending on how close to a city you are - and even owning or renting a house with a 1/2 acre yard is completely unthinkable unless you have alot of money and/or connections in city areas. The other part is that if we only have access to treated water - it costs around $60 a month for water and then we pay extra for anything over 300 gallons per day - so raising good veggies and fruit trees could potentially cost more than buying organic at the store. But even buying organic at the store leaves out lots of fruits and vegetables that could be grown. Don't get me wrong - we have lots of good produce here in CA - but unless you live in specific areas you just don't get access to some of the best apples and oranges and grapes and kiwis and tomatoes, and peaches and nectarines and plums and figs and watermelons and all the other melons. And if you want to make your own pickles or you want special eggplants or asian veggies - you might have to grow your own. We do have all kinds of lettuces and greens but whenever I have raised my own I found they had more flavors than what I get in the store. I'm not sure with regards to the fruit if it's the actual fruit tree or if it's because they pick the fruit when it's still green and tasteless - but even when ripened at home it still doesn't get the tastes we grew up with. I had an orange tree not that many years ago and it was awesome. The best oranges in the store don't come close.

So - I guess what I'm saying is - can it be done for farmers and semi farmers and just regular people to work together so all the risk doesn't sit on one person. So we can have more variety, healthier fruits and veggies and the choice to pick it when it's actually ripe etc. etc. etc.

Also - I noticed that lot's more of Northern CA is heavily planted with corn. Not rows of corn. Fields of corn packed so tightly together noone could get in - so I'm guessing this is corn for ethanol.

Zlxr says

But if I'm going to grow trees then I need something long term - and yeah I might get too old to prune the high up branches and pick all the fruit so I might want to pay for a little help.

High density orchards can help both the acreage and the too-tall-to-harvest problems. Put in 3-4 dwarf fruit trees per 18" hole and keep them pruned to 6' or below. You can also put espaliered fruit trees along your property fences to maximize space efficiency:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espalier

You won't be self-sufficient by any means but even a few well thought out fruit trees with a small vegetable garden can yield plenty of farm fresh fruits and vegetables. Depending on your local ordinances a coupe of chickens can convert the bugs into eggs for you as well.

Here's the thing New Renter.

I don't own any land right now.
So your ideas are great but not possible at present.

What I'd like to promote, though, is the idea that we need healthier fruit and veggies and more variety. And that GMO should be to make things better NOT just easier for the grower.

While a large scale farmer has to deal with say getting all his tomatoes to harvest on the same week because he only has access to pickers and the cannery on a certain week in July or August ---- I as a private grower would rather not have all my tomatoes get ripe all at once.

I either need to learn more about successive planting - or I need a tomato plant that just keeps on producing. But most of all I want tasty healthy tomatoes.

So - let's say there is a farmer out there that would be willing to work with me and other serious people such as master gardeners and 4H club etc. etc.

OK - so we tackle serious issues such as how to recreate topsoil - or enrich the current soil we have. This may involve digging ditches and collecting clean kitchen scraps and raising cover crops for green manure. It might mean using animal poop - but finding ways to get the salts and heavy metals out. I heard that another way to help is to use charcoal - you don't burn the wood all the way to ash because charcoal helps to keep nutrients in the soil even if it rains alot.

All this might be way to labor intensive for a farmer - especially in the beginning. But let's say that there are people who are willing to donate some time and money and effort and besides there are some lazy kids out there who could learn to dig a ditch or 2. So let's say this farmer is willing to allow some of his land (maybe only 10 acres at a time - to see if this can be done. Then let's say we want to grow apples and cherries and plums and oranges and grapes etc. Do we mix them altogether - or does this farmer have better knowledge that certain things grow better together than others. Also we need bees. So can we mix rosemary and certain other bee attracting plants so we have little gardens within gardens to keep bees around for pollinating and keep the chemicals away because I think it's the chemicals that are causing at least some of the problem with the bees.

Farmers can't do large scale mixed use farms as well so we need to figure out how to help out (because we want to eat and be healthy - and not pay our health insurance companies so much money).

And - yes - we could grow espaliered trees and some raised planter beds so us older people can reach and still help. And we raise some taller trees and other people who can still climb ladders help out.

I'm not rich - but I am willing to share. I can buy seeds and trees and I can help sprout and transplant seedlings. And I can help with gardening too. But there also must be people out there who can't buy seeds - but have time and would be willing to help me so they can have food to eat.

And maybe this farmer has also experienced problems with farm chemicals such as his child getting leukemia or something. So maybe he'd like to try other things - but just can't afford to make huge and sudden changes all at once.

So let's say he only makes $200 per year an acre from this crop he is raising. So first thing we have to do is make sure he gets his $200. Is it worth it to him to let us use one or more of his acres for $200 each - plus he provides the water???? And can we pay someone $200 for the use of an acre and make it profitable for ourselves?

Also - we ALL need to consider that there are an awful lot of people on Food Stamps - and part of this is because there just plain old isn't a good job for everyone. If they ever get cut off and we have all those hungry people looking for food - we ALL have a problem. There is also a shortage of organic food.

This isn't just an issue for famers, or food producers or us. It's everyone's problem. No farmer wants to grow food if hoards of people were to raid his property and trample his crops. No food producer is going to make money if nobody has any money to buy food with and us little guys just plain suffer if there is no food. Plus it does cost us all for the Food Stamps to begin with.

I know I don't know the answers. But I do know that I never run out of ideas. They aren't always good ideas or even great ideas but maybe someone else can come along and use my ideas to create a better one.

Now if Monsant owns the farms they probably don't give a shit about what I think. But if a small farmer wants to keep his farm and is currently struggling --- isn't there a way that some of us can join in and help him out and help ourselves at the same time?

Zlxr says

Now if Monsant owns the farms they probably don't give a shit about what I think. But if a small farmer wants to keep his farm and is currently struggling --- isn't there a way that some of us can join in and help him out and help ourselves at the same time?

I don't know about Martinez but in Cupertino there is at least one place that sounds like what you are talking about:

http://hollyhillhummingbird.com/

Zlxr says

I don't own any land right now.

So your ideas are great but not possible at present.

I would suggest you start with a community garden plot. My daughter has had one for years (on the East coast) and it is a nice and sometimes only way for the urban gardener to garden. Sometimes the demand for plots outstrips the supply but definitely something to check out. The conditions are far from ideal but none the less a small plot can yield big returns.

I haven't farmed in many years ( I still have farmland in the mid west) but I have always gardened, currently living by myself I end up giving much of what I grow away. It is a real joy to give away produce fresh picked grown without chemicals, a joy to eat also.

rdm says

Zlxr says

I don't own any land right now.

So your ideas are great but not possible at present.

I would suggest you start with a community garden plot. My daughter has had one for years (on the East coast) and it is a nice and sometimes only way for the urban gardener to garden. Sometimes the demand for plots outstrips the supply but definitely something to check out. The conditions are far from ideal but none the less a small plot can yield big returns.

I haven't farmed in many years ( I still have farmland in the mid west) but I have always gardened, currently living by myself I end up giving much of what I grow away. It is a real joy to give away produce fresh picked grown without chemicals, a joy to eat also.

Excellent suggestion.

Another possibility might be to put out a running ad in Craigslist offering to harvest tree fruit for no money, just a percent of the harvest. I'm sure there are lots of homeowners with trees that produce far more than they themselves can handle. In my own neighborhood I see many neglected fruit trees just begging for attention.

Senior centers may also be a good source for homeowners who cannot take care of their own yard.

Warning - if you do this you will end up with LOTS of persimmons, oranges, lemons and grapefruit. You may be able to mitigate that by specifying what kind of fruit you are looking for.

Another possibility would be to contact a local winery. Most California wineries I have visited (and I've been to MANY) have an organic garden area. Martinez has two wineries that I have found with vineyards on site:

vianovineyards.com‎
climbingmonkeys.com‎

Contact the owners and explain to them what you are interested in. Who knows you might pick up an extra weekend job.

Something else to try, mushrooms. Its low on labor and takes very little space:

http://www.gmushrooms.com/POTS.HTM

You indicated a desire to grow tomatoes, Have you thought about growing them hydroponically indoors? There is an entire industry catering to the indoor hydroponic grower albeit for a different crop...

Thank you New Renter and rdm.

I still like to garden and find it very relaxing and I've always given stuff away. I have never mastered the art of planting in succession so I end up with bags of zucchini and tomatoes and cukes whenever I garden. I'm too old to think about getting rich - so it's more about quality of life. You know - it's more important to be able to still put on your own shoes and feed yourself than it is to go out and get richer than anyone else just because you can.

Getting old can be kind of humbling - so my goal is to live as well and self sufficiently as I can and as happily too. And then die quickly when my time comes.

At the very least I am going to visit the garden in Cupertino and make a donation. I have a fruiting mulberry that I'd like to donate but I'd still like to visit the tree. It has berries that are about 2 inches long that taste kind of like a cross between a cherry and a blackberry. I have no idea if you can even buy one. I just had one at my old house and we rooted a couple of branches so I'm growing a tree from a cutting. We got it to grow roots before we cut it off the tree.

My aversions to chemicals have to do with having been quite ill for awhile. I find that protecting my liver and my gut seems to have a lot to do whith my level of health. And I have found that for me alternative healthcare works better than medicine that includes drugs. But ultimately - good food is the best medicine. And I just want to be sure that my food is safe and healthier.

I am currently growing some cukes, tomatoes, parsley, bell peppers and I rooted a celery from the store that just went to seed. But I'm growing them in planters that have a water reservoir in the bottom.

The only thing I'm not sure about hydroponic - is getting the flavor.

I harvested some from my plants but I think I'll be looking for ways to improve my potting soil. So I'll keep working on that aspect for right now. My cucumbers really went to town but weren't the best quality and I'm still harvesting bell peppers which are quite tasty. My tomatoes were not quite what I wanted and were a bit sparse - but it could be a sun issue in that I don't get all day sun and sometimes it's too hot. Growing plants in potting soil and growing plants in the ground is not the same. I still think that the microorganisms are necessary - but I'm not sure of everything else. I know that sprinkling on a bit of epsom salts works to make them grow better as does making tea out of my kitchen scraps. But I want to make sure I have all the other nutrients as well.

You're right about there being lots of trees where the fruit just rots on the ground. But not all the trees have great fruit. Citus fruit flavor depends alot on what you fertilize the tree with. They can manage to be sour and pithy if they aren't cared for properly. And you can't let them go for long periods without water and then get this great idea to water them alot. You'll split all the fruit.

Maybe there is another elderly person who would kind of rent/share their yard with me. So I could fertilize their trees and get a better harvest. I might feel better about putting up a notice at the senior center than on Craigslist though. Thanks for the idea.

New Renter says

Another possibility might be to put out a running ad in Craigslist offering to harvest tree fruit for no money, just a percent of the harvest. I'm sure there are lots of homeowners with trees that produce far more than they themselves can handle. In my own neighborhood I see many neglected fruit trees just begging for attention.

Warning - if you do this you will end up with LOTS of persimmons, oranges, lemons and grapefruit.

I never ate a persimmon I liked, but people tell me they ferment into a very nice beverage...

Zlxr says

At the very least I am going to visit the garden in Cupertino and make a donation. I have a fruiting mulberry that I'd like to donate but I'd still like to visit the tree. It has berries that are about 2 inches long that taste kind of like a cross between a cherry and a blackberry. I have no idea if you can even buy one. I just had one at my old house and we rooted a couple of branches so I'm growing a tree from a cutting. We got it to grow roots before we cut it off the tree.

Glad to help!

If you get down to the south bay you might also be interested in this place:

http://www.pruschfarmpark.org/

Its one of my favorite family friendly places to go. Lots of community farming activities including a high density apple/pear/quince orchard and a rare fruit orchard. I can't be certain but I may have seen a fruiting mulberry in the latter. I know they have the only pistachio tree I've ever seen.

Its also free.

There is also another farm park in the works, the Martial Cottle Park in the Blossom Valley area of San Jose:

Martial Cottle Park is a 287.54 acre property located in a residential and commercial neighborhood of South San Jose. The property is bounded by Branham Lane, Snell Avenue, and Chynoweth Avenue. It was an agricultural farm through four generations.

For further information on this exciting project and the planning process, including how to get involved, see the Santa Clara County Parks Web page.

people tell me they ferment into a very nice beverage...

That was me and yes, they do :)
(just make sure they're fully ripe first)

Yes, it was you. I do have to try that sometime. With champaign yeast, or some other kind?

Patrick - there is a persimmon that stays hard like an apple - they taste good.

But I think the one you would be interested in is only ripe when it is almost like jelly. Otherwise - it will pucker you up. So if you eat one and you get the puckery feeling - it is NOT ripe.

Mulberries can be really awful as well. But the tree I have has big juicy berries. The only problem is if you wait until they are ripe - they are not easy to pick and should probably go straight into your mouth. Or you can put them into a peach pie or have with ice cream or on pancakes.

You always look like you have been in a knife fight when you pick these.

I really like the turn this thread has taken!

@Zlxr: I didn't realize you're as old as you say you are. Now things are making sense. My father's two brothers have been genealogy fanatics for decades and yet they won't let me buy a cheap genome kit (~$100) which they could use anonymously to show what parts of the world their genes came from. The idea just freaks them out!

Anyhow, anyone like you who's into gardening the way you are is okay in my book.

Yes, it was you. I do have to try that sometime. With champaign yeast, or some other kind?

Yes, I used champagne yeast for my batch. The recipe can be found here:
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/reques19.asp

Lots of other fruit wine recipes on this site as well. Fruit wine is a GREAT answer to the eternal quandary of "what the @$%$ are we going to do with all this fruit!"

Zlxr says

Patrick - there is a persimmon that stays hard like an apple - they taste good.
But I think the one you would be interested in is only ripe when it is almost like jelly. Otherwise - it will pucker you up. So if you eat one and you get the puckery feeling - it is NOT ripe.

The apple like one would be a Fuyu persimmon. The wine is made with the "jelly" Hachiya persimmon.

Hachiya persimmons freeze well and will ripen as they thaw.

just_passing_through says

Anyhow, anyone like you who's into gardening the way you are is okay in my book.

Ditto!

Oh, yes, you are a bit younger than they are. (68, 70, 73)

I hadn't heard of frequency medicine, interesting...

Lots of alternative possibilities out there for sure. All I'd say is whatever you do, ensure you communicate with a good doc too - don't be Steve Jobs. His version of pancreatic cancer had a 95% cure rate and he'd likely be around today if he didn't avoid western medicine for so long.

Not that cancer is your issue, just saying.

Zlxr says

Especially in regards to pleomorphism wherein Rife said that a bacteria could morph into a virus or a fungus depending on the environment. Too bad you can't still use his microscope and stain a virus with ultra violet light and observe it while it's still alive. But - if it's true that those teeny microorganisms can morph - then science is going to have to rethink how alot of things happen.

I had to look up what you are talking about here - I think you mean L form bacteria which lack a cell wall. From what I've read these bacteria are capable of infecting other cells by becoming ingested (e.g. by a macrophage). I don't think you can classify this as"morphing" into a virus.

Letter I received from Bill Neslon on the FDA

Dear xxx,

Thank you for contacting me regarding the ongoing Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval process for genetically engineered salmon. I voted for Senator Murkowski's amendment on May 24 that would have prohibited the FDA from approving genetically engineered fish unless the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration also approved.

In September 2010, a group of senators sent a letter to President Obama asking him to halt all the proceedings at the FDA on this issue. Among the concerns they cited were the possible public health consequences of marketing this fish for human consumption, the lack of transparency in the FDA's review process, and the environmental impact of large-scale farming of genetically engineered fish. On January 31 of this year, Senator Begich introduced S. 230, which would ban genetically engineered salmon altogether.

I understand these concerns and I am monitoring this situation closely. Although genetic engineering has the potential to enable us to produce more food at a lower cost, policy makers must fully understand and inform the public on the risks of these foods before allowing them into the marketplace. Regardless of whether this fish ever ends up on dinner tables in America, consumers have a right to know what they are eating and that it is safe. I will keep your views in mind should any legislation on this issue come before the Senate.

I appreciate your communication on this important issue. Please do not hesitate to contact me in the future.

Sincerely,
Bill Nelson

Obligatory Simpson's reference:

Wouldn't it be easier and cheaper just to breed the salmon in tanks and then release them into the "wild" to grow up? And do the same with other fish? I mean won't the salmon think of wherever you released them from as their home to return to for breeding, making them easy enough to catch later?

Another genetic experiment on the US population.

And as usual 20 to 30 years from now when all of us result in some sort of health problem from eating these GMO's they'll finally tell us it was bad. But for those 20 to 30 years we'll be making fantastic money for GMO industry which doesn't even want their genetically modified garbage labeled.

Write a letter to your senator asking them to deal with this, at least have them add GMO labels to these mutants.

FortWayne says

Write a letter to your senator asking them to deal with this, at least have them add GMO labels to these mutants.

Can you read, I did.

121212 says

FortWayne says

Write a letter to your senator asking them to deal with this, at least have them add GMO labels to these mutants.

Can you read, I did.

I did.

zzyzzx says

Wouldn't it be easier and cheaper just to breed the salmon in tanks and then release them into the "wild" to grow up? And do the same with other fish? I mean won't the salmon think of wherever you released them from as their home to return to for breeding, making them easy enough to catch later?

Salmon running up the river to breed aren't good for eating. They stop feeding and get all mushy. If you get them right at the mouth they are ok, but the ones from the open ocean are better.

I know they do the pen raise and release thing with steelhead on the north west coast and probably salmon somewhere, but it's more of a conservation thing than agriculture. Steelhead don't die after breeding so they hold up better than salmon.