patrick.net

Agree and noticed that as well. Even without knowing the exact math on interest rates, taxes and maintenance, it couldn't be a huge profit, or one at all, to buy (take a loan out) and rent in Paris.

Wonderful, additive free, fresh baked daily food though and a three course meal for 10 Euro. :)

David9 says

Call me crazy, many dark windows in these apartment buildings, sure, it's Paris, they could be 2nd homes.

Paris is a very popular 2nd home destination. Who is not to like to have a pad in a beautiful pre-war building on Avenue Foch?

I really prefer food in Switzerland. The VAT on the bill in Paris makes me cry.

Peter P says

Who is not to like to have a pad in a beautiful pre-war building on Avenue Foch?

No disagreement there. Also, the other European countries are easily accessable by train also, making the possibility of a purchase even greater. The streets and metro are constantly full of people with suitcases on wheels.

I guess it probably make sense to have a second or third home there. if you live there and make more than a million euro, you have to pay 75% tax.

At night, this is a Paris City Lights View..

2.) Paris rentals are reasonable. Again, from store front listings, many apartments available from 650 Euros to 1000 Euros in a decent area.

Are you sure that's monthly? Europeans sometimes list weekly rent instead of monthly.

pdh says

Are you sure that's monthly?

My first two days there, I was greeted by a friend of a friend, he pays 670 Euro for small studio monthly, by the Eiffel Tower.

David9 says

pdh says

Are you sure that's monthly?

My first two days there, I was greeted by a friend of a friend, he pays 670 Euro for small studio monthly, by the Eiffel Tower.

Awesome!

New Renter says

Awesome!

I don't have a copy of a bill but I was told the French Government capped cell phone and internet rates for it's citizens to around 40 Euro, here is a link:

http://www.orange.fr/

David9 says

5.) For whatever reason, no one was rude to me and I found the French rather friendly actually. Just start with a formal greeting and everything is ok. Noticible difference if the formal greeting is forgot or omitted.

Were you speaking French or English?

My French is not so good.

Were you speaking French or English?

I would always start out with a French formal greeting 'bonjour' for the daytime and 'bonsoir' for evening time, this is manadatory, otherwise you get a raised French eyebrow. Depending on the situation, I would usually ask: 'Parlez- vous anglais?' (Do you speak English?) Not one person said 'No', most would say 'a little' accentuated by a thumb and index finger gesture. Then we began to speak in English.

I am not fluent French, but did learn enough to get reactions from people, I love to do this when overseas. Like the time there was a French couple waiting with me at the Hotel door, I gave a sweeping gesture and said: 'Sil vous plait' (Please) both smiled and jerked upward a bit. 'Merci beaucoup' (thank you very much) and 'bonne journée' (have a good day) when used in the right situation go over very well.

To answer your question succinctly, I would always start off in basic French and this most always turned into speaking in English.

When I visited Paris a decade ago I did experience some rudeness but most people were friendly and helpful. My wife came down with stomach bug so we were able to experience the wonders of the French health care system. It was not that different from what I have experienced here at Kaiser (in a good way). It helped that my wife looked up her symptoms and wrote everything down BEFORE we saw the doc.

In addition to antibiotics the doc recommended warm, flat non-diet coca cola. She told us she had learned that trick in Africa. It worked to settle my wife's stomach until we could get the prescription filled.

David9 says

I would always start out with a French formal greeting 'bonjour' for the daytime and 'bonsoir' for evening time, this is manadatory, otherwise you get a raised French eyebrow.

This was true for us except in the restaurants. They get itchy when you order gin martinis in fluent French w/Parisian accent--you still get a terse English reply and raised eyebrow (and a cocktail glass with an ice cube in it: merde!)

Philistine says

This was true for us except in the restaurants. They get itchy when you order gin martinis in fluent French w/Parisian accent--you still get a terse English reply and raised eyebrow (and a cocktail glass with an ice cube in it: merde!)

No wonder they call you philistine :-). Gin is a Brtiish abomination looked upon with disdain like the German fixation with fried pork. Barbarian. You need to order a good cognac or eaux de vie. Although I will admit that I do have trouble telling some of the rural area's local eaux de vie from paint stripper.

Philistine says

This was true for us except in the restaurants. They get itchy when you order
gin martinis in fluent French w/Parisian accent

Usually, after a formal greeting in a restaurant, they would speak English if they knew how too. We screamed tourist and did not speak fluent French, but hopefully someday I'll get the chance again to order a drink in fluent French :)

Don't forget that many of the apartments are inherited. In fact, there is probably an oversupply of such apartments that are effectively driving down rents.

Also, I have a friend (born in Lorraine) who is a professional in the Palo Alto area. He purchased a 2bd in the 4th(?) in sometime around 1999 when the euro was 1.3 to the dollar - the inversion of now. I think he paid something less than 300,000E. Backed out in today's dollars, that is not expensive, nor was it really that long ago. (all numbers are from memory, but I think I have it approximately right)

If you are overseas French or French with a principle residence in the outlying regions of France, then Paris is the only place to have a beachhead. It makes for a property market that does not really resemble anything we have in Cal.

The comment that someone made that the food was better in Switzerland is one that I can't really believe....on a cost basis, I don't think most people would reach that conclusion.

Another Miner says

It makes for a property market that does not really resemble anything we have in Cal.

Also, houses and apartments are build to last. Not to be rebuild after 30 years. Lets see, straw, wood, or brick/stone. I'll take the later any day. Build a house once and live in it forever. Wood warps, cracks, doesn't handle moisture well, and is a favorite food for termites.

David9 says

I would always start out with a French formal greeting 'bonjour' for the daytime and 'bonsoir' for evening time, this is manadatory, otherwise you get a raised French eyebrow. Depending on the situation, I would usually ask: 'Parlez- vous anglais?' (Do you speak English?) Not one person said 'No', most would say 'a little' accentuated by a thumb and index finger gesture. Then we began to speak in English.

When I visited Paris as a tourist, I did the same, and found that people were friendly. It seems to make a big difference if you ask if they speak English, vs just assuming. This is about the extent of my French so it was good that most people spoke English.

The worldwide prevalence of English makes travel relatively easy. It would be difficult for someone speaking only Spanish, Russian, or Chinese.

SiO2 says

It seems to make a big difference if you ask if they speak English,

Precisely, just go up to someone and ask 'Parlez- vous anglais?' and you get crinkled noses and raised eyebrows, but say 'Bon Jour', wait for a response, then ask, and they are sweethearts.

Peter P says

I really prefer food in Switzerland. The VAT on the bill in Paris makes me cry.

Huh? Food in Switzerland is crazy expensive. I spent 3 weeks there this summer traveling around with my family. I also spent a full month in Paris and food prices were MUCH cheaper in Paris vs. Switzerland.

Switzerland is crazy expensive. I travel around the world quite often and in any major city I've been able to find cheap Chinese fast food type places. The only place where I didn't see that exist is Switzerland. Don't get me wrong. They DO have places like that but they are around $25 to $30 an entree. The same thing in Paris or London or Amsterdam or any other major city is less than $9 or so. Even at Pizza places a pizza was around $27 each or so.

Paris is really an amazing city. Definitely real estate prices are very expensive there. As others mentioned, many Europeans own property there and use it as a second home. We always rent a property or do a home exchange there and it's always been from someone else that lived somewhere else in Europe and had a place in Paris as well.

Paris is one of the greatest cities in the world. I wouldn't want to live there but it's amazing to go on vacation.

bubblesburst says

Huh? Food in Switzerland is crazy expensive.

I went in 2008, when EUR was high and CHF was low. Perhaps that explains it.

I remember seeing EUR 190 appetizers at a restaurant in Paris. For the first time in my life I was scared looking at the menu. Worse yet, ladies were given BLIND menus.

bubblesburst says

Huh? Food in Switzerland is crazy expensive.

I lived there for a while and got used to expresso and chocolate. The two cheap things in the country. ;) Forget eating salads and meat. $30-$40US salads are not abnormal. Entries for 50-60 at mediocre restaurants.

Ah ok. I was just there this summer and I've honestly never spent so much on dining out. EVERYTHING is expensive in Switzerland. We spent 3 months traveling around Europe including Monte Carlo and the French Riviera and everywhere else seemed cheap compared to Switzerland.

We have young kids and I remember one day in the train station our son wanted a plain hamburger at McDonalds or Burger King (can't remember which it was) and it was literally $4 for one plain hamburger.

Food prices were really expensive there. I remember going to some nothing special Chinese restaurant and ordering 3 entrees (one for me, one for wife and one for kids to split) and with 2 sodas it was over $100 dollars.

bubblesburst says

cheap Chinese fast food type places. The only place where I didn't see that
exist is Switzerland. Don't get me wrong. They DO have places like that but they
are around $25 to $30 an entree. The same thing in Paris or London or Amsterdam
or any other major city is less than $9 or so. Even at Pizza places a pizza was
around $27 each or so

LOL, going to Paris and eating Chinese takeout and pizza. Fantastic!!

Where in Switzerland? We stayed in Vevey and it was not that bad.

Ah ok. I was just there this summer and I've honestly never spent so much on dining out. EVERYTHING is expensive in Switzerland. We spent 3 months traveling around Europe including Monte Carlo and the French Riviera and everywhere else seemed cheap compared to Switzerland.

We have young kids and I remember one day in the train station our son wanted a plain hamburger at McDonalds or Burger King (can't remember which it was) and it was literally $4 for one plain hamburger.

Food prices were really expensive there. I remember going to some nothing special Chinese restaurant and ordering 3 entrees (one for me, one for wife and one for kids to split) and with 2 sodas it was over $100 dollars.RentingForHalfTheCost says

bubblesburst says

Huh? Food in Switzerland is crazy expensive.

I lived there for a while and got used to expresso and chocolate. The two cheap things in the country. ;) Forget eating salads and meat. $30-$40US salads are not abnormal. Entries for 50-60 at mediocre restaurants.

Exactly Renting! Many places we went to had entrees at $50 each for nothing too fancy restaurants. I remember in Bern we ordered a few pizzas and they were about $30 each for nothing too special pizza.

Well we were in Europe for 3 months. I don't know about you but I'm not going to eat French or Swiss food for 3 months straight. When we live abroad we like variety just like at home. Including Pizzas, burgers and Chinese food.

3 months is a long time.

http://www.hoteltroiscouronnes.ch/pictures/media/Hiver_menus_2012.pdf

Even now, a whole tasting menu costs about $80 to $125, about on par with San Francisco.

Peter P says

Where in Switzerland? We stayed in Vevey and it was not that bad.

We were in Zurich, Bern, Lucerne, Lugano, Geneva, Lausanne.

Peter P says

http://www.hoteltroiscouronnes.ch/pictures/media/Hiver_menus_2012.pdf

Even now, a whole tasting menu costs about $80 to $125, about on par with San Francisco.

Yes, but the difference is in most major cities including San Francisco there are plenty of places that have affordable food. You can eat healthy and good in San Francisco for very cheap. That really isn't the case in Zurich. Unless you go to a Migros type supermarket (which granted had surprisingly decent food), it's really hard to eat affordably in Switzerland in the major cities like in the USA or most other major cities in Europe.

In Paris where were MANY places to get great food that wasn't too expensive.

Ah, all the banking and tourism centers.

Can't speak for Switzerland, but my friend and I stopped off for pizza in the Pigalle district (Yes, the naughty adult district), ground beef and goat cheese for 9 euro and it was delicious! We were amazed.

Other culinary delights was a crepe to die for, Grand Marnier and Orange, also for 9 Euro, any cafe (coffee) is delicious, and a 20 Euro French plate of meats and cheese where the portion was so large I had to use my own plastic bag to take the remaining home. My French friend at the time said they don't do take home bags.

Did you visit Lake Como when you were at Lugano?

Absolutely David! We ate really really well in Paris. Yes, we did hit some expensive restaurants and cafes but there are some great bakeries. We LOVED going to the bakery each morning and buying fresh bread and there were many places where you can buy meat and cheese plates. Delicious!

Man, few things beat having Coffee outside on one of those beautiful French Cafes. I've been to Paris many many times but usually only for a week or so. Staying there a month was really great.

Peter P says

Did you visit Lake Como when you were at Lugano?

Yes. Absolutely gorgeous. I've been to Lugano a few times. It's one of my favorite cities in the world. It was the first time I took my wife and kids there. Just a gorgeous city. We took the train from Milan to Zurich and it's a beautiful ride.

I highly recommend Lugano to anyone.

bubblesburst says

We LOVED going to the bakery each morning and buying fresh bread

Heaven. Even the Hotel had Fresh Bread delivered daily for their breakfast. Such a treat from all those preservatives.

Last night I was dreaming of Paris in my sleep all night!

Food in London has improved greatly. Those bankers do have some contribution to the society.

So true David! The bread there is incredible. We loved living like locals and carrying fresh bread back to our apartment each morning or at the end of the day. I don't think I ate so much bread in my life than that month. LOL.

It's great seeing everyone carrying loaves of bread under their arms. There are several bakeries on almost every corner. We stayed in the 7th and LOVED it. We walked about 5 or 6 hours each and every day. Everywhere is so beautiful in Paris.

Peter, so true about London. We typically go to London every year or so and things have improved greatly in the food department. I used to think food in London was expensive with the Sterling but Zurich made everywhere else seem cheap.

Peter P says

Ah, all the banking and tourism centers.

Exactly. I've been going there since 92 and Switzerland had always been very, very expensive. Paris is expensive also, as is most of the south of France, especially Provence, in the summer. Go to the south of France outside the school holidays you will find the prices, service, and experience far different.

It's a shame that so many people here said they visited Paris. France is such a great place outside of Paris, which I generally avoid other than going to the airport. Going to Paris and the Riviera is like going to NY and the Jersey shore. Interesting but not terribly representative of the rest of the country.

Yeah, GBP has fallen against CHF.

Indian food in London has always been good anyway.

Bringing this back to Bay Area real estate -- the last time I was in Paris (almost a decade ago) was through an informal (not through a website) home exchange. We were located in an apartment in the Montmartre district. The local patisserie was great for morning treats to go with our coffee. A local did corner us once in the the neighborhood grocery store to express his displeasure with George Bush (all in French, including pantomime machine gun with sound effects).
Home exchanges are a cost effective way to see another city, and, at times, blend in with the locals. This is another plus for BA real estate, as people in other metropolitan areas want to visit here and are willing to do exchanges.