patrick.net

That is because abortions should not be taken lightly. It's human life we are talking about, it's killing a child.

Ah, but that's the one million dollar question. At what point does a developing offspring become a person? What is the criteria for personhood? Is it just the crude animation of cells performing chemistry? If so, then aren't E. coli persons? Is it just the presence of human DNA? If so, aren't chimps 98.8% persons?

See the thread The abortion question answered. Turns out, both sides were wrong. for the answers.

In any case, the pro-life efforts should be made towards changing the law, not circumventing it. The ends do not justify the means. If the situation were reversed, abortion was illegal but people found a loophole, you would adamantly be objecting to the use of that loophole as unethical.

26

Dan8267 2013 Mar 19, 3:50am

Respect for life and each other starts at conception.

What exactly is so special about conception? You are alive before conception. The sperm and the egg that made you are both alive. In reality, every cell in your body is over 3.8 billion years old and has been growing and dividing for all of that 3.8 billion years with occasional short breaks.

Furthermore, conception does not happen in an instant. It take trillions upon trillions upon trillions of Plank times to complete the extremely long process of penetrating the egg, combining the DNA, and starting a large number of chemical processes, each of which starts at a different time. Just because on the human scale of experience this happens quickly doesn't make it instantaneous. So exactly when during the arduous process of conception does the life go from worthless to priceless?

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Dan8267 2013 Mar 19, 3:51am

You make it sound like all abortions come from rape, and that is not true.

Obviously I have never said anything even remotely like that. However, the Republican laws did apply to rape victims and that is the prime reason Democrats called such laws the "war on women".

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Dan8267 2013 Mar 19, 3:56am

Most come from irresponsible behavior by teenagers.

It is your opinion that the teenagers are being irresponsible. Another opinion would be that the teenagers are being responsible by getting the abortion.

But in either case, why should the state violate the rights of an irresponsible person? Whether or not the person is "irresponsible" is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is at what point does the offspring have the right to live, and the only way to answer that question is to answer a far more fundamental one: what is it that constitutes a person?

The entire abortion debate dances around that fundamental question. The fact is that the rights of the mother and the rights of the offspring are inherently in conflict. I'm all for erring on the side of safety and preferring the rights of the offspring once a case can be made that the offspring is a person. However, there is no rational reason to believe that personhood is achieved at the arbitrary period of conception. If you are going to make a "soul" argument, then you had better read The abortion question answered as I have thoroughly destroyed the soul argument in that thread.

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FortWayne 2013 Mar 19, 4:29am

But in either case, why should the state violate the rights of an irresponsible person? Whether or not the person is "irresponsible" is irrelevant. The only thing that matters is at what point does the offspring have the right to live, and the only way to answer that question is to answer a far more fundamental one: what is it that constitutes a person?

Yes, because right to life comes before the right to abortion. Life is fundamentally more important.

You have a right to live, angry neighbor next door does not have a right to kill you.

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FortWayne 2013 Mar 19, 4:31am

It is your opinion that the teenagers are being irresponsible. Another opinion would be that the teenagers are being responsible by getting the abortion.

But if they were responsible these teenagers would not be pregnant in the first place. If teenagers feel shame for certain actions they are less likely to do them, that is a big portion of morality.

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Dan8267 2013 Mar 19, 4:47am

Yes, because right to life comes before the right to abortion. Life is fundamentally more important.

And I would agree with that as long as we are talking about persons, which is the fundamental question.

But if they were responsible these teenagers would not be pregnant in the first place. If teenagers feel shame for certain actions they are less likely to do them, that is a big portion of morality.

There is nothing inherently evil about sex, even when teenagers do it. Nor is there anything inherently immoral about sex, even when teenagers do it.

Furthermore, shame is an emotional reaction to something that threatens one social standing in a community and as such does not necessarily indicate immorality. For example, most people would be ashamed to be forced to take a dump in public, but it is not the case that such a person is being immoral.

In any case, the morality, ethics, and legality of abortion all come down to the simple question of what exactly constitutes a person. This is the question that neither side is willing to address. Luckily, I have already answered this question thoroughly. Not a single counter-argument has stood up to my reasoning. Unless that happens, we can accept the answer I provided here.

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FortWayne 2013 Mar 19, 4:53am

Furthermore, shame is an emotional reaction to something that threatens one social standing in a community and as such does not necessarily indicate immorality. For example, most people would be ashamed to be forced to take a dump in public, but it is not the case that such a person is being immoral.

Supreme Court has made that decision with a compromise, I don't remember the details but it's something tied to trimesters and seemed reasonable.

But about abortion, only reason to make something difficult is to discourage it. The more difficult an abortion is, the less likely it is to happen and less likely teenagers are going to murder an unborn child. This does reduce unwanted pregnancies in teenagers. That's a good thing.

33

zzyzzx 2013 Mar 19, 5:12am

The "war on women" sounds a lot more real than the "war on Christmas".

You forgot about the Democrat party's war on men.

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Dan8267 2013 Mar 19, 5:17am

zzyzzx says

You forgot about the Democrat party's war on men.

You mean the family court system's war on men.

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Dan8267 2013 Mar 19, 5:25am

But about abortion, only reason to make something difficult is to discourage it. The more difficult an abortion is, the less likely it is to happen and less likely teenagers are going to murder an unborn child.

If an abortion is murder, it should be made illegal, not discouraged by humiliating girls and women including rape victims. The entire question once again is exactly what constitutes a person. And you are still dancing around that question.

It's not an unimportant question. I'm not going to forbid a woman at gunpoint from having an abortion unless I know that the offspring is a person. This is especially true for a rape victim. If personhood really did begin at concept as you propose, but do not justify, then even a raped girl should be forced to carry the rape baby because two wrongs don't make a right. Sucks for the girl, but that would be the lesser of the two evils.

However, if personhood does not begin at conception, then it would be outright evil to force a raped girl to bear the offspring.

So, the question of personhood is not academic. It is the critical question in the entire abortion debate. This is exactly why you should ask yourself what precisely distinguishes a person from a non-person and why do you believe that. Until you do that, you're just dancing around the issue.

As for me, I've already answered that question clearly, thoroughly, objectively, honestly, and accurately in this thread. No person on this planet has ever found a flaw in my reasoning in that thread. I'm willing to entertain new counter-arguments from either the pro-life or the pro-choice crowd, but I reserve the right to defend the position I took there. Of course, if someone actually does make a descent counter-argument, I reserve the right to change my position and accept that argument, though I doubt that will happen.

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curious2 2013 Mar 19, 5:26am

marcus says

I guess when the President is black, the whole concept of respect for the office goes out the window for about a third of the country.

The rule is, when the President is a Democrat, certain quarters abandon their pretense of respect for the office. Hillary Clinton lamented the "vast, right wing conspiracy" nearly 20 years ago. JFK worried about the John Birchers. IIRC, Clinton and Kennedy were both white.

BTW, Democrats usually didn't even pretend to have much respect for W either. A worrisome exception was, his approval rate climbed above 70% in the aftermath of the worst national security failure in American history. Somehow when people are scared they behave like North Koreans, frantically praising the dear leader.
So maybe Democratic presidents get less devotion because they tend to do a better job, or rather a less terrible job. There are exceptions to that rule too of course, e.g. LBJ starting the Viet Nam draft.

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FortWayne 2013 Mar 19, 8:16am

The entire question once again is exactly what constitutes a person. And you are still dancing around that question.

I'm not danceing around it Dan. A human being is the supreme court definition of where life begins. Second trimester? I don't know exact definition.

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Dan8267 2013 Mar 19, 8:38am

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

I'm not danceing around it Dan. A human being is the supreme court definition of where life begins. Second trimester? I don't know exact definition.

Screw what the Supreme Court says. Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong. What do you think makes a person a person? And does a person really have to be human? Why can't a chimp be a person? You can have a meaningful conversation with a chimp using sign language. Why can't an extraterrestrial be a person? Why can't a robot be a person?

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curious2 2013 Mar 19, 8:41am

Note that the Constitution says "born," not conceived. Note also the Constitution does not provide any exceptions, e.g. for people of a disfavored color, or anchor babies or gay couples, or whoever else might become the target of any political faction.

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FortWayne 2013 Mar 19, 8:45am

Screw what the Supreme Court says. Maybe they are right, maybe they are wrong. What do you think makes a person a person? And does a person really have to be human? Why can't a chimp be a person? You can have a meaningful conversation with a chimp using sign language. Why can't an extraterrestrial be a person? Why can't a robot be a person?

I think it is roughly a month after conception. We are a society of humans, and humans matter. Robots can't be persons because they should not matter, as they are artificial creations with no soul.

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Dan8267 2013 Mar 19, 9:00am

Robots can't be persons because they should not matter, as they are artificial creations with no soul.

Artificial vs natural does not matter. If I build a human, atom by atom, is it not a human?

As for the soul, neither you nor I possess a soul as there is no such thing. And if there were such a thing and the Christian afterlife true, then it would be a moral and ethical obligation to kill every baby before it could possibly risk its immortal soul, losing an eternity of bliss and gaining an eternity of damnation. The fact that you do not believe it is a moral duty to kill babies before they can endanger their souls proves that deep down, you do not believe in a soul any more than I do regardless of what you tell yourself when you cannot deal with your own mortality.

Furthermore, we can ask the question of whether or not chimps have souls. If they don't, then what about the common ancestor of humans and chimps? There would have to be a point where a mother has no soul but her child does. And how incredibly cruel would that be? A child who has to spend an eternity bearing the loss of her mother?

The very concept of a soul is fundamentally flaw and the only purpose it serves is to delude people about their own mortality. And that is not a good thing as it causes people to make very bad decisions in life.

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FortWayne 2013 Mar 20, 2:38am

Artificial vs natural does not matter. If I build a human, atom by atom, is it not a human?

You can't and it's a sort of unrealistic discussion. And yes natural does matter, it matters to me. A vcr will never and should never be as important as a human being. For it has no soul and it is not human.

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Dan8267 2013 Mar 20, 5:24am

APOCALYPSEFUCK is Shostakovich says

You can't and it's a sort of unrealistic discussion.

There is no law of physics that states that a fully functional, living human being couldn't be created atom by atom. Unless there is some law that prevents it, eventually it will be done. But even if it were not practical or "realistic", the mere possibility is enough to illustrate the silliness of the concept of a soul.

Would a cloned human have a soul? Would a sheep cloned from sheep DNA have a soul? Would a creature cloned from both human and sheep DNA have a soul? What percentage of human DNA would you have to use in order for the clone to have a soul, bearing in mind that the majority of sheep and human DNA already overlap?

And, of course, there is absolutely no reason why a fully sentient computer or robot could not be built. In fact, it seems rather implausible that, if humanity doesn't destroy itself, we will not have created a sentient AI within the next thousand years, i.e., less than half the time since Jesus.

And don't forget about chimps, gorillas, and orangutans. We can have conversations with these creatures using American sign language. Are you telling me that these clearly thinking beings don't have souls? They are indisputably sentient beings. What kind of cruel god would cause these sentient beings to cease to exist when they die but allow humans, barely different from chimps, to survive for eternity?

And then there is the problem with the fact that humans are descendant from common ancestors of chimps, gorillas, and all other apes. This means there is no non-arbitrary place where you can start inserting souls into creatures without being cruel to those that just didn't make the cut.

And then there is the problem with extra-terrestrial life, which will run the gamut between mindless bacteria-like creatures to space-faring civilizations. Any attempt to divide these beings into two groups, those with souls and those without, would be entirely meaningless and arbitrary.

The bottom line is that nature is messy, nature is fuzzy, and nature does not organize itself into nice, neat packages that make human classifications of things easy and comfortable for humans. The very concept of the soul was created by human beings fearing their own mortality, but not thinking of or caring about, all the other creatures in the universe. As such, the fictional soul doesn't even stand up to the most rudimentary thoughts about what's actually in the universe.

Let's say I replace each of my neurons, one by one, with an artificial, silicon neuron. I do this by removing a single neuron from my brain and replacing it with an artificial, perhaps even virtual (i.e., software on a chip) neuron and connecting that neuron to the biological neurons that were connected to the neuron being replaced. I do this for each neuron. At the end of the process, I have a completely inorganic brain that is identical to the organic brain that I once possessed. I have the exact same mind, and may very well have been awake and conscious for the procedure.

Do I still have a soul after my brain has been replaced in piecemeal with an artificial one? If not, at exactly what point did I lose my soul and if my new soulless brain decides to commit murder with its body, is that a sin? If I do still have a soul, then what happens if I move my artificial brain to a robotic body? Does it still have a soul then? If not, same dilemma as before. If so, then why wouldn't a being I create by copying my now artificial (possibly virtual) brain not also have a soul? Wouldn't I be, in effect, either creating souls myself or forcing god to create souls?

Can you see now all the problems with the soul mythology? If not, you're still left with the indisputable fact that if the soul did exist, then morality and ethics would demand that we kill all babies in order to save their souls. After all, there is nothing in mortal life that can even remotely compare to an eternity of bliss or an eternity of suffering.

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Dan8267 2013 Mar 20, 5:25am

No one will take GOP candidates seriously until their candidates wander around waving automatic weapons shouting that rape is a sacrament.

I thought that was already going on.

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curious2 2013 Mar 20, 5:28am

Dan's atomic reconstruction scenario sounds like something out of Blade Runner. If the Republicans still exist, I can imagine their platform, banning science and campaigning against replicant marriage. At least in that dystopian future, Republicans could point out that atomically reconstructed or otherwise synthetic replicants aren't "born" and so they would need to be naturalized by legislation in order to qualify for equal protection of the laws under the 14th amendment.

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Vicente 2013 Mar 20, 5:34am

Republicans could point out that atomically reconstructed or otherwise synthetic replicants aren't "born" and so they would need to be naturalized by legislation in order to qualify for equal protection of the laws under the 14th amendment.

In the GOP Blade Runner theocracy, the Bible and Constitution would support having replicants as disposable slave labor. Amendments would be made to support this if needed, and it's unlikely that a GOP Supreme Court would challenge the matter.

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curious2 2013 Mar 20, 5:36am

Vicente says

replicants as disposable slave labor

Republicans don't need replicants for that, the drug war and life sentences without parole are producing a large supply of prison laborers to undermine union labor.

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Dan8267 2013 Mar 20, 5:43am

Vicente says

In the GOP Blade Runner theocracy, the Bible and Constitution would support having replicants as disposable slave labor.

Sad, but true. And this is exactly why the notion of a soul is not simply an academic question. It's not simply a matter of personal, religious beliefs because it materially and gravely affects law.

Already we see that FortWayne's strong opinion that abortion should be illegal from conception is based on the false assumption that humans have souls. That alone is an example of false religious beliefs criminalizing behavior that should not be criminalized. And that alone would be sufficient to rebuke the nonsense of a soul given the importance of the abortion debate.

But that's just the very tip of the iceberg. The fact that we have not outlawed, on the international level, the killing of apes, dolphins, and whales for any purpose is a direct result of this "soul" lie. Sentient beings on our planet right now are being killed in horrifically painful ways because people who believe that a god create humans as special creatures with souls also believe that all other animal life has no intrinsic value and can be morally and ethically slaughtered for mere human convenience.

And if we ever find extraterrestrial life that isn't space-faring, say a Stone Age or Bronze Age culture, you can bet the religious will say those soulless animals can be hunted to extinction and their world stripped for resources.

And when we do create sentient AIs -- and yes, that will happen -- the religious will want them to be slaves.

The fact is that we have reach the technological point where maintaining ethics and morality less evil than Nazi Germany requires that we accept that the soul doesn't exist and that there is a different reason why human life is precious, and that reason is sentience.

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Dan8267 2013 Mar 20, 5:46am

Vicente says

disposable slave labor

Republicans don't need replicants for that, the drug war and life sentences without parole are producing a large supply of prison laborers to undermine union labor.

It will be cheaper to maintain or replace a robot than a black man. This is why the army is already trying to replace human troops with robots. You have to feed human troops and each human soldier costs about $20k/yr to maintain. That's just salary. It does not include training and veteran expenses. Robots are way cheaper. That's one reason the military loves drones.

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FortWayne 2013 Mar 20, 6:57am

There is no law of physics that states that a fully functional, living human being couldn't be created atom by atom. Unless there is some law that prevents it, eventually it will be done. But even if it were not practical or "realistic", the mere possibility is enough to illustrate the silliness of the concept of a soul.

We shouldn't. This is why we have evolution, nature gave us all the tools to evolve. Human meddling into it would be a bad thing in my view because it would be defiled with profit seeking and control.

And don't forget about chimps, gorillas, and orangutans. We can have conversations with these creatures using American sign language. Are you telling me that these clearly thinking beings don't have souls? They are indisputably sentient beings. What kind of cruel god would cause these sentient beings to cease to exist when they die but allow humans, barely different from chimps, to survive for eternity?

All living things have a soul, but they are not all human. And our society is created for better existance for all of us, but primarily humans. However, artificial creation such as a vcr or an iphone does not qualify into that. These are mere creations.

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curious2 2013 Mar 20, 8:06am

All living things have a soul....

What I find troubling about the Republican position on this issue is, they start with the premise that you have a soul more important than your earthly life, and leap to the conclusion that they must punish you in this life in order to safeguard your soul. Even if you are happy and healthy in your life, and never asked for their help or advice, they must punish you to protect your soul. It's similar to the Inquisition, except re-framed in secular language. If they don't like the person you're married to, they say you're setting a bad example and they must punish you or refuse to recognize you. If you smoke a disfavored type of cigarette, they must punish you for the same reason (pay no attention to the corporate sponsor behind the curtain, i.e. the prison industrial complex). Essentially Republicans contend that (a) you have a soul and (b) they own your soul.

OTOH, the Democrats have responded to this by saying you have a body, which is true, and that they own it and can sell it to their corporate sponsors (Obamacare, Viet Nam draft). In the case of the Viet Nam draft, you had to go there and you might not survive. In the case of Obamacare, they've sold your body to Aetna etc. and you have to pay rent or else they'll penalize you.

So there it is. Republicans want to punish your body to protect your soul, which they claim as their property. Democrats want to tax you to make you pay rent on your body, which they've sold to their corporate sponsors. Neither party seems interested in changing course anytime soon, so the present trend seems set to continue until intervening factors (financial collapse, maybe precipitated by natural disaster or other "unforeseeable" event that we've been warned of for decades) forces both major parties to change course.

52 Moderate Infidel 2013 Mar 20, 9:05am

Sounds like penises are the real problem.

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marcus 2013 Mar 20, 2:25pm

See, I grew up with a notion that neither being white or black was cool, race didn't matter. Accomplishing something was cool, you are what you accomplish in life.

We all grew up believing that we believe that.

But when you say things like this:

Since Obama became president all I see on television is black actors and black celebrities

Then we realize you are seeing race where it does not exist.. On some deep level all of this has you very confused.

The only thing cool about having a black President is that we have gotten to where it is possible. Most people agree that that's cool. But those with a republican bent are far too quick to decide,...."but yeah that doesn't mean he's competant. In fact maybe we are all over reacting to the positive aspect of this. Especially those damn "liberals."

MEanwhile the guy is just a very smart and pragmatic (nearly republican - by 1980 standards) politician with a capital P. And he is presiding over incredibly tough times(great recession or maybe great depression 2) , when the crony capitalism is ingrained and the deep problems are intractable.

And all I hear from the dimbulbs is,... "Darrrrrr.....It's Obama's fault.":

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marcus 2013 Mar 20, 2:39pm

KarlRoveIsScum says

hey moron, life does not begin at conception, it does not!

Truth is we don't know.

KarlRoveIsScum says

YOU Disgusting piece of SHIT!

Forthood is a real nasty piece of work

Why do you have to be that extreme ? I guess it could be argued that I am worse, since my criticisms of the guy are closer to real (less over the top). So I am not one to talk. But do you need to be so absurdly crude and ugly ? It destroys any credibility that you might otherwise have had.

There are only two possibilities. Either you don't want to be credible. Or you are dealing with some significant emotional challenges. I guess a third possibility is that to you this is just some amusing wacky internet character you created.

It makes me want to put you on ignore, and I am someone that agrees with much of your supposed point of view.

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curious2 2013 Mar 20, 4:36pm

marcus says

It makes me want to put you on ignore....

as you ignore already 20 others. It's funny because your own tantrums read like what you complain of about KarlRoveIs...

56 thomaswong.1986 2013 Mar 20, 7:32pm

tatupu70 says

none of those men would be part of today's Republican Party.

because you, an unknown, unnamed poster to a blog says so ..... is it True ?

57 thomaswong.1986 2013 Mar 20, 8:56pm

Republicans don't need replicants for that, the drug war and life sentences without parole are producing a large supply of prison laborers to undermine union labor.

perhaps they are in prison for a reason for the crimes they committed found guilty by a members of the jury. So how do you explain why we have juries who hand out the verdicts.

perhaps a a year in the state penitentiary will change your view on how dangerous to society these inmates are and why they are behind bars.

58 thomaswong.1986 2013 Mar 20, 9:00pm

Essentially Republicans contend that (a) you have a soul and (b) they own your soul.

you mean Republicans contend...

1) you have a soul...
2) the state doesnt own your soul and...
3) you have the right to own a gun to make sure (2) above doesnt happen.

59 thomaswong.1986 2013 Mar 20, 9:10pm

The fact that we have not outlawed, on the international level, the killing of apes, dolphins, and whales for any purpose is a direct result of this "soul" lie. Sentient beings on our planet right now are being killed in horrifically painful ways because people who believe that a god create humans as special creatures with souls also believe that all other animal life has no intrinsic value and can be morally and ethically slaughtered for mere human convenience.

That is why we became farmers/ranchers.. who raise cattle far greater in number than nature could provide. fact is we have put intrinsic value on food which will continue to invest and preserve animals for a very long time.

Had a chicken lately... how about some steak or pork.. yep all raised by man and in large quantities ...

You really do Bullshit alot dont you..Dan.. Something you provide in large quantities....

Genesis 9:3 "Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything."

60 thomaswong.1986 2013 Mar 20, 9:23pm

And if we ever find extraterrestrial life that isn't space-faring, say a Stone Age or Bronze Age culture, you can bet the religious will say those soulless animals can be hunted to extinction and their world stripped for resources.

Right ! just like 16th-century Spanish Dominican friar Bartolome Casas advocated to the Pope who declared human rights for Indians ... 600 years ago.. He was just one of many early proponents of human rights that shaped the modern world. So where were the atheists in all of this ?

61 saroya 2013 Mar 21, 1:04am

If you believe abortion is murder, then you must be willing to have the aborting mother executed for first degree manslaughter. If not, then you are a hypocrit. You can't have it without both. You cannot be dinning at an Ethics Buffet where you get to pick and choose only part of your equation.
Or if you are a Jeffersonian and believe that mothers have more rights than breeding livestock, then that decision is between the mother, her doctor, and her God.

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coriacci1 2013 Mar 21, 1:28am