patrick.net

Suspect 2 captured not due to police search, boat owner noticed blood on his boat and looked inside. Saw man covered in blood, called cops. At hospital in serious condition, crisis over.

Dan8267 says

Really? Got proof of that?

Sorry, he was a microbiologist.

Don't worry, you're premise that rationality and education are bad things still stands.

No. That wasn't it. But you can live in your own world, if you so choose.

Vicente says

Right here in this thread we have Thomas Wong peddling the idea it was Marxists.

oh... and where did i mention the recent terrorist attack was the work of the Red Army Faction, Weather Men Underground, Baader-Meinhof Gang ?

nadda...

i pointed out how the Liberals were jumping the gun ...

as posted above... here it is again...

as already shown on Pnet above ...

Liberals Are Already Blaming Boston Marathon Bombing On Conservatives

ww.rightwingnews.com/crime/liberals-are-already-blaming-boston-marathon-bombing-on-conservatives/

After national tragedies, liberals almost inevitably come out of the woodwork looking for ways to blame the whole thing on conservatives. Sadly, the Boston Marathon bombing has been no exception to that rule. Even though at present, there is absolutely nothing that ties the Boston Marathon bombing to conservatives, there are still Left-Wingers still trying to blame these attacks on the Right.

CNN’s national security analyst Peter Bergen suggested more than once that a, “right-wing extremist group” could be behind the attacks.

MSNBC’s Chris Matthews falsely claimed that, “Normally domestic terrorists, people, tend to be on the far right.”

New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof tweeted, “Explosion is a reminder that ATF needs a director. Shame on Senate Republicans for blocking apptment.”

And of course, we can’t forget Michael Moore. "2+2= "

thomaswong.1986 says

oh... and where did i mention the recent terrorist attack was the work of the Red Army Faction, Weather Men Underground, Baader-Meinhof Gang ?

For example, in this post of yours:
http://patrick.net/?p=1223866&c=952719#comment-952719

thomaswong.1986 says:
it would NOT be the first time anarchists - marxist groups planted bombs during public
events in the USA. Its been going on over the past 100 years. so you can forget trying to associate Religion to this crime.

How many bombs went off during the late 60s early 70s week in week out over the course of several years. Weatherman Underground ring a fucking bell !!

Are you an Alzheimer patient or something? Or does your keyboard diarrhea just make it impossible to keep straight what you said yesterday?

Or is this one of those cases of "see what I *meant* there was your sister is great, even though what I *wrote* is your sister likes sex with donkies". Keep fucking that chicken!

Vicente says

For example, in this post of yours:

http://patrick.net/?p=1223866&c=952719#comment-952719

thomaswong.1986 says:

it would NOT be the first time anarchists - marxist groups planted bombs during public

events in the USA. Its been going on over the past 100 years. so you can forget trying to associate Religion to this crime.

How many bombs went off during the late 60s early 70s week in week out over the course of several years. Weatherman Underground ring a fucking bell !!

Are you an Alzheimer patient or something? Or does your keyboard diarrhea just make it impossible to keep straight what you said yesterday?

Or is this one of those cases of "see what I *meant* there was your sister is great, even though what I *wrote* is your sister likes sex with donkies". Keep fucking that chicken!

I call that a US history lesson into late 19th and early 20th century discussion on bombings in the USA.. And a reminder of mass bombings in recent history.

So sorry.. you cant point to some right wing nut job on this terrorist attack.. your boy got killed by some crazy ass foreigner and you cant get over it.

thunderlips11 says

I'm guessing a lone nut rather than a terror cell, however. I think Religion is the most likely, since a tax protestor or anti-abortionist generally attack facilities directly tied to their pet peeve.

thomaswong.1986 says:

it would NOT be the first time anarchists - marxist groups planted bombs during public
events in the USA. Its been going on over the past 100 years. so you can forget trying to associate Religion to this crime.

How many bombs went off during the late 60s early 70s week in week out over the course of several years. Weatherman Underground ring a fucking bell !!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Red_Scare#Anarchist_bombings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Weatherman_actions

thomaswong.1986 says

your boy got killed by some crazy ass foreigner and you cant get over it.

I have never held any other assumption than it was a terrorist.

Please point to where in this thread I claimed otherwise. You can't. Then you attempt to rewrite your own history in this thread, when we can all read otherwise. Do you have some kind of disorder with a name?

This thread is over & done.

Keep fucking that chicken!

This story is getting attention all over the world but is not on Boston.com: "Boston Marathon bombing suspect NOT read his Miranda rights". The FBI is reportedly invoking a "public safety exception." One comment on the Washington Post site is particularly good:

"The public safety exception is triggered when police officers have an objectively reasonable need to protect the police or the public from immediate danger."

There seems to be a rush to water down the rights that Americans are guaranteed....

It seems worrisome that this tragedy may be misused as an excuse to take away even more of the safeguards against government excess, as 9/11 was misused to enact the horribly misnamed and unpatriotic "Patriot Act." Better to go through the usual procedure: arrest the suspect and inform him of his rights, then give him a fair trial where he is presumed innocent until the prosecutors prove the police got the right guy, then convict and sentence him, then electrocute him or inject him full of chemicals until he's dead.

what a bunch of a bunch of bleeding liberal apologist... are you going to have a big cry when this guy is taken to trial and pleads guilty as did all the other terrorists in previous years/trials.

curious2 says

This story is getting attention all over the world but is not on Boston.com: "Boston Marathon bombing suspect NOT read his Miranda rights". The FBI is reportedly invoking a "public safety exception." One comment on the Washington Post site is particularly good:

thomaswong.1986 says

you going to have a big cry !

Somebody's never seen Dirty Harry!

It appears the brother who was killed, was actually married and had a kid. Rather strange, unless they were fanatics. I wonder if they had backing from someone else? It would seem odd if they cooked this up by themselves.

http://news.yahoo.com/mass-bomb-suspects-mom-law-sickened-attack-231854685.html

Hardly the best job, though. They tell everyone they're packing it up for the night - that they checked everywhere and "it's safe to come out". One spokesman says, "We'll get him, he's still in Massachusetts".

Then a guy goes out to water his yard, and finds him! Blood everywhere. Then a police spokesman starts spinning it... " He was one block further than the perimeter we set up". Oh, and probably Russia warned the US about the brother over a year ago, and the FBI checked it out and TURNED HIM LOOSE.
Several people should be out of a job. Seriously.
Pretty close to Keystone Cops, if you think of it. And dollar per dollar? Oh man.

A guy with a garden hose finds him, after police give the all clear, and they're all heading for donuts. TSA might want to hire these guys. Wow

Here's what I guess.

There are pictures of him with hot girls at the gym, he had plenty of friends and won many boxing contests.

I think what happened is he had the start of a relationship with an American Girl, but she left him when he started insisting she act like a Muslim. That's where his DV conviction comes in. And his slide into evil Religion.

I think there should be a parallel investigation of any clerics he spoke with or met.

we are having a "who's a stupid ass" contest in America ... everyone that ask's , "why did they do this?" is a stupid ass. Everyone that says, "shoot the murdering coward in the head right away" is not a stupid ass.

I dont care why murdering cowards murder anyone. I dont care what weapon they choose. I dont care their age or color or sex or shoe size. I dont care their motivation or excuse. I dont care if their dad left them, beat them, or raped them every hour on the hour ... all that should matter is murder was done and justice for murder is a swift death to the bad guy.

you may recall that Lord Barry's very first message was "we will find them, and we will find out why". Why? Why ask why you leftist socialist commie arab puke?

thomaswong.1986 says

(Thunderlips says): I'm guessing a lone nut rather than a terror cell, however. I think Religion is the most likely, since a tax protestor or anti-abortionist generally attack facilities directly tied to their pet peeve.

I take it you quoting me 6 posts above is a concession on your part?

Let's see, I said lone nut but it was a couple a' nuts (blood relation), and correctly guessed they were not involved as part of any organized group. I said the attack was motivated by religion and/or right-wing ideals, which it was. Nothing to do with Weathermen, Bob Dylan, Emma Goldman, or the FAI.

I'll give my prediction 2/3 of a "Ding".

Bap33 says

I dont care why murdering cowards murder anyone.

"Know your enemy".

Bap33 says

we are having a "who's a stupid ass" contest in America ... everyone that ask's
, "why did they do this?" is a stupid ass

Not really. Why is very important here. Were they acting alone or is this part of a bigger conspiracy involving a larger group. I for one would like to know who else was involved and are they some sort of jihadist group??

When ever i hear a terrorist attack my mind is smart enough to say to me..
muslims ! My mind does that because of its high PROBABILITY being a muslim. I think human brains are very good at doing "statistical" analysis based on recent terrorist attacks of past three decades.

jkaldi says

When ever i hear a terrorist attack my mind is smart enough to say to me..
muslims ! My mind does that because of its high PROBABILITY being a muslim. I think human brains are very good at doing "statistical" analysis based on recent terrorist attacks of past three decades.

Yeah, but there are a billion+ Muslims. It is who and how to stop them. When they attacked us on 9/11 Bushie's response made us a joke. The guy who attacked us lived and kept taunting us, while we went and invaded the wrong country-for what??

Like him or not, Obama restored some of our lost standing by getting Bin Laden. he was the only one willing to go to Pakistan to finish the job. If you can't get the guy who not only attacked you, but openly taunts you after the fact-what use is all that military power. Oh and that no bid military contract winner Halliburton is now based out of Dubai-another Muslim country.

yea .. and so waterboarding must be the plan to get the info?? of are you stupid ass enough to think the truth just rolls out of a murdering coward?

Lord Barry "got OBL" .. sure he did .... seen a body? But, lets pretend it went down like the movie plot suggested, than the info used was gathered by waterbording and/or by force from questioning bad guys at Gitmo..... ummm .. Lorb Barry promised the liberal pukes, like that freak from Code Pink, that he would be closing Gitmo ... hmmm ... the liberal mind is a horrid center of filth.

Sure would be interesting if Ben-Gauzy was looked into like Boston was. And Fort Hood. Yea ..... stupid assfinding game is underway.

Bap33 says

we are having a "who's a stupid ass" contest in America ... everyone that ask's , "why did they do this?" is a stupid ass. Everyone that says, "shoot the murdering coward in the head right away" is not a stupid ass.

Why Tsarnaev committed the act is irrelevant to his punishment. As for his sentence, all that matters is that he clearly premeditated and intentionally set off the bombs and killed others. That's going to be pretty easy for the prosecution to establish.

However, why Tsarnaev and his brother committed the act most certainly is an important question to answer accurately in order to prevent such acts from being committed again. Understanding why something happens is always important for gaining wisdom.

As for giving Tsarnaev the death penalty, that would be a mistake on many levels. First, he will endure far more regret spending the rest of his life (60+ years) behind bars with no hope of getting out. Kill him and he dies happily expecting 72 virgins, something his girlfriend couldn't be for him.

Second, killing Tsarnaev will elevate him to the level of a martyr. Keeping him locked up will show him for what he really is, a criminal and nothing more.

Third, keeping Tsarnaev alive opens up the possibility that he will regret his actions so much that he becomes a vocal opponent of Jihad like a certain former gang member.

curious2 says

This story is getting attention all over the world but is not on Boston.com: "Boston Marathon bombing suspect NOT read his Miranda rights". The FBI is reportedly invoking a "public safety exception."

I think the Miranda brouhaha is much ado about nothing. The only possible consequence of not Mirandizing Tsarnaev is that his statements post-arrest might not be admissible in his prosecution.

But since there is plenty of other evidence that he is totally guilty of aggravated, premeditated murder it won't make any difference if those statements can't be used. Therefore there is no problem with skipping Miranda if it will help other investigations; that's a choice the government can make.

bdrasin says

The only possible consequence of not Mirandizing Tsarnaev is that his statements post-arrest might not be admissible in his prosecution.

On that we disagree. Not respecting the principles embodied by the Miranda rights affects who we, as a society are, far more than it affects this particular case. This is exactly what determines the characteristics of our nation. Do we uphold our principles when they are inconvenient? If we do not, then the terrorists win because they demonstrate that our way of life doesn't work as we abandon that very way of life.

The true measure of whether a nation values truth, liberty, and justice is whether or not it upholds those values precisely when they are least convenient. In the long run, a society that upholds these values will be stronger and happier than one that doesn't.

I Liked both Dan's and Roberto's comments above.

I agree first with Dan and would suggest considering this question: what, if anything, is gained by not honoring the Constitutional procedure? I don't see any upside, but I do see potential downside as Dan described.

I agree also with Roberto in that the remedy should be exclusion of the post-arrest statements from evidence, which in this case might not make any difference anyway. I worry though that the government is invoking this particular exception to the exclusionary rule, in order to expand the exception. In other words, they want to have their cake and eat it too, i.e. skip over his rights and yet use his statements anyway. This does not appear to be an emergency where time was of the essence and they didn't have time to read him his rights or they forgot; this looks more like a case where they (ab)used a tragedy to exercise and strengthen an exception to the exclusionary rule.

We will see what comes of it, but I hope it won't descend into trial by Twitter. The founders of the republic wrote an independent judiciary and the Sixth Amendment into the Constitution because they knew from centuries of experience that these safeguards were necessary to keep the power of the executive in check, otherwise anyone can be vilified and locked away without trial or recourse based on secret evidence (which might be mistaken) or no evidence at all.

Dan8267 says

bdrasin says

The only possible consequence of not Mirandizing Tsarnaev is that his statements post-arrest might not be admissible in his prosecution.

On that we disagree. Not respecting the principles embodied by the Miranda rights affects who we, as a society are, far more than it affects this particular case. This is exactly what determines the characteristics of our nation. Do we uphold our principles when they are inconvenient? If we do not, then the terrorists win because they demonstrate that our way of life doesn't work as we abandon that very way of life.

The true measure of whether a nation values truth, liberty, and justice is whether or not it upholds those values precisely when they are least convenient. In the long run, a society that upholds these values will be stronger and happier than one that doesn't.

Sorry, don't follow. The "principals embodied by Miranda rights" are that no one can be compelled to be a witness against themselves. There's nothing magic about the Miranda warning itself; it is just a safeguard against the police (i.e. the state) pressuring a suspect into self-incrimination. That's it. If the government thinks its worth questioning the guy prior to the Miranda warning, with the knowledge that what he says might not be allowed in his trial (again, we don't need it because there is plenty of other evidence) I don't see the problem. Now if we torture the guy, or ship him off to Gitmo and don't give him a trial at all, then we have a problem...

Bap33 says

yea .. and so waterboarding must be the plan to get the info?? of are you stupid ass enough to think the truth just rolls out of a murdering coward?

Lord Barry "got OBL" .. sure he did .... seen a body? But, lets pretend it went down like the movie plot suggested, than the info used was gathered by waterbording and/or by force from questioning bad guys at Gitmo..... ummm .. Lorb Barry promised the liberal pukes, like that freak from Code Pink, that he would be closing Gitmo ... hmmm ... the liberal mind is a horrid center of filth.

Sure would be interesting if Ben-Gauzy was looked into like Boston was. And Fort Hood. Yea ..... stupid assfinding game is underway.

So your solution is to kill him immediately and worry about the next bombing when it happens ?? That defnitely explains Dubya the shrub-Bin Laden attacked us, lets go kill some Iraqis-they are all Muslims-what's the difference??

lostand confused says

It would seem odd if they cooked this up by themselves.

Why? All kinds of mass murderers had families, so what?

Nothing about this, reads as more than garden variety terrorist operating with some devices made from a cookbook.

Tens of thousands of people have probably been interviewed by FBI on suspicion. Eventually an agent has to make a choice that this person does not seem to pose an IMINENT danger, they have bigger fish to fry and move on. Likely there was no particular evidence to indicate action versus loudmouth. Once in a blue moon they are said to have "missed" a terrorist when they didn't there was probably no indication AT THAT TIME that these guys were severely radicalized and ready to make bombs.

I stick with Occams Razor. There is nothing to indicate a need for a grand conspiracy. Of course Mom will find some twisted way it's ANYONE else's fault other than her sons.

lostand confused says

they are all Muslims-what's the difference??

You mention the 95% correct way to approach this issue. The aim should be on arab muslams. They are the only "true" muslams (in their own book it says so), and those crazy arabs want all non arabs dead or slaves ... oh, and so you know, if you are an arab and not a muslam, then they will kill you the same. In the eyes of the arab muslam, if you are arab you must be muslam, and if you are muslam you must be arab,, they are racists and religious bigots at the same time.... a mean combo.

They want a war against Christians and Jews ... lets give it to them.

Dan8267 says

However, why Tsarnaev and his brother committed the act most certainly is an
important question to answer accurately in order to prevent such acts
from being committed again.

(1) how do you plan to extract the info? (2) How are you to be sure it is honest, or even based on reality?

Bap33 says

(1) how do you plan to extract the info? (2) How are you to be sure it is honest, or even based on reality?

Put him in jail for life. Eventually regret will set in. Then give him a chance at redemption, not a chance at freedom, but a chance at a better jail experience (more outdoor time, more sport time, etc).

We'll know whether or not it's honest based on the content.

There have been plenty of cases of people changing their lives in jail.

Bap33 says

I dont care why murdering cowards murder anyone. I dont care what weapon they choose. I dont care their age or color or sex or shoe size. I dont care their motivation or excuse.

The whole purpose of the "Why" is not to placate the bleeding hearts. It's so that the experts at Quantico FBI Headquarters could gather more intel & personality profiles of potential lone wolf operative types. Realize this, the Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski, has been studied in large detail, thanks to the Feds apprehending him alive. If you've noticed, no one's been able to replicate the 17 year reign of terror like Kaczynski's since his time out in the woods.

FBI's most experienced and successful personnel have said repeatedly that the torture used during the W administration did not help at all, and in fact was counterproductive. Successful interrogators require the three things that were used during the interrogation of Saddam Hussein: a quiet room, sufficient resources, and the time necessary to become the subject's best (and possibly only) friend. Faux News try to spin that into being soft on crime or terrorists or whatever, but in reality Saddam Hussein got executed - by Bop69's preferred method, hanging. Sadistic torture seems to excite repressed Republicans, but truly successful interrogations gather accurate data and develop useful information.

Yeah, but torture is so much fun.

curious2 says

FBI's most experienced and successful personnel have said repeatedly that the torture used during the W administration did not help at all, and in fact was counterproductive

Panetta admits that CIA DID use intelligence from water-boarding to capture bin Laden

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2272860/Defense-Secretary-Panetta-admits-CIA-used-information-waterboarding-capture-Osama-Bin-Laden.html

Defense Secretary Leon Panetta said that some of the information that was used to locate and kill Osama bin Laden was attained using torture.

The admission comes after months of speculation about the role that waterboarding plays in CIA interrogations following its graphic depiction in the Oscar-nominated film Zero Dark Thirty.

'In order to put the puzzle of intelligence together that led us to Bin Laden, there were a lot of pieces out there that were a part of that puzzle. Yes, some of it came from some of the tactics that were used at that time, interrogation tactics that were used,’ Panetta said Sunday during an appearance on Meet The Press.

CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attack on Los Angeles

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cia-confirms-waterboarding-911-mastermind-led-info-aborted-911-style-attack-los-angeles

CNSNews.com) - The Central Intelligence Agency told CNSNews.com today that it stands by the assertion made in a May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that the use of “enhanced techniques” of interrogation on al Qaeda leader Khalid Sheik Mohammed (KSM) -- including the use of waterboarding -- caused KSM to reveal information that allowed the U.S. government to thwart a planned attack on Los Angeles.

Before he was waterboarded, when KSM was asked about planned attacks on the United States, he ominously told his CIA interrogators, “Soon, you will know.”

According to the previously classified May 30, 2005 Justice Department memo that was released by President Barack Obama last week, the thwarted attack -- which KSM called the “Second Wave”-- planned “ ‘to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into’ a building in Los Angeles.”

Dan8267 says

We'll know whether or not it's honest based on the content.

for that to be the case, then you are asking questions you know the answers to.

robertoaribas says

there is a reason the israelis don't torture terrorists,

if we would follow all of the anti-terror and anti-illegal immigrant systems used by isreal, then I would conceed to follow their info gathering system too.

robertoaribas says

there is a reason the israelis don't torture terrorists,

got to hand it to the Mossad.. they dont go around telling people what and how they do things.

robertoaribas says

the question, or at least one question, should be: is it the most effective way? most studies show no.

that question was answered, we have our methods... heck they are Muslim.. making them stand naked in front of women is considered torture.

Sounds like you want to have a debate in the teachers lounge while your enemies are hatching their plots.

thomaswong.1986 says

Panetta admits that CIA DID use intelligence from water-boarding to capture bin Laden....

That comment and the linked sources illustrate how, even as the Internet has enabled people to communicate more, it has also enabled people to silo themselves more. The two sources that you cited are a "conservative" British tabloid and an American self-styled "conservative" website. Both omitted what Panetta said next, "we could have gotten bin Laden without that." These "conservative" sites are part of the divide & misrule game: they amplify polarization by presenting only what data their target audience will want to hear, so that people feel they have less in common with each other and then they mistrust each other more. Advocating torture, and spinning news reports to support it, are not really "conservative" at all, but they are consistent with the increasing polarization that has reduced the words "conservative" and "liberal" to nearly unintelligible labels for ideologically incoherent patronage networks.

Meanwhile, "60 Minutes" presented this evening an outstanding group of reports related to this week's events in Boston. Dan might especially like this excerpt, about how the surviving suspect was finally captured:

The 20-block search lasted 15 hours. And then Davis announced that they had lost the suspect.

Ed Davis: He said he was dying for a cigarette, he had to go outside to have his cigarette. And he saw the blood on the boat. And so he peered in after climbing a ladder. And he told me that he saw a body in there with blood on it."

In other words, keeping people inside and having police search did not result in the capture; allowing people to go outside led to the information that resulted in the arrest.

WTF Bap33,
In which book does it say arab are the only muslims?

curious2 says

Both omitted what Panetta said next, "we could have gotten bin Laden without that."

and you left out two important words... from Panetta... "I Think"...
and that isnt " I am sure" or "I am confident" ... we could have gotten bin Laden without that. His words were not a sure fact that OBL would have been caught. He is speculating.

Heck, if you dont need 'enhanced techniques' or you need them, i doesn't bother me. But it did work and they gave up all the information.

Ex-CIA chief defends waterboarding of al Qaeda leader

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57422476/ex-cia-chief-defends-waterboarding-of-al-qaeda-leader/

Rodriguez says everything his interrogators did to top-level terrorists like Khalid Sheik Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah was legal and effective. "We made some al Qaeda terrorists with American blood on their hands uncomfortable for a few days," he tells Stahl. "I am very secure in what we did and am very confident that what we did saved American lives," says Rodriguez, who has written a book on the subject called "Hard Measures."

Pressed by Stahl about charges that Zubaydah, who was waterboarded and sleep deprived, gave false information that wasted U.S. resources, Rodriguez replies, "Bull****!, He gave us a roadmap that allowed us to capture a bunch of al Qaeda senior leaders," says the ex-spy.

Rodriguez says the interrogation program, which also included stress positions, nudity and "insult slaps," was "about instilling a sense of hopelessness...despair...so that he [the detainee] would conclude on his own that he was better off cooperating with us." He says that even Khalid Sheik Mohammed, whom he termed "the toughest detainee we had," eventually gave up information.

curious2 says

Advocating torture, and spinning news reports to support it, are not really "conservative" at all, but they are consistent with the increasing polarization that has reduced the words "conservative" and "liberal" to nearly unintelligible labels for ideologically incoherent patronage networks.

No.. some of us dont have our tongue up Osama's ass like others and calling him Daddy!