patrick.net

REpro says

freak80 says

REpro says

Actually when I'm traveling, I frequently noticed that I pay same money for a night in Hotel as one day housing in San Jose cost me.

Plus you get your sheets washed at no extra charge.

Yah,… forgot about free breakfast.

You forgot free bedbugs too. :)

mdiablo says

Most cities do require new developments to have some "affordable" component, typically 20%. And there is no way to build affordable housing with a profit margin similar to luxury, otherwise developers would do it without being forced.

Go to Phoenix, Las Vegas, Dallas, Tampa, etc. You will find new housing developed for every budget range, nobody force developers to do it. They just see what market needs, what is selling well.

retire59 says

I have lived in SFBA since 1969...always rented with 1/4 rent to income, which means small one bedroom apt, etc. but still took vacations, eat out, etc and saved 20% for retirement. We did not buy because we could not keep that ratio.

We are close to retiring and moving out of here and are buying and keeping our 1/4 mortgage including taxes and insurance of our retirement income. If we were middle aged or younger, we would work and live outside SFBA as this is no place to live anymore, IMHO....salaries do not keep up with the cost of living for most in SFBA so you become house poor with no future...there are many other places you can do much better..again IMHO...

Can you estimate how the percentage of rented housing costs compares today vs in 69 keeping all ither things equal? As in if then you could pay 1/4 of income, what do you suppose that wouldbe today for the same quality apt?

Thx.

bmwman91 says

There is no surprise on my part that the landlord is doing it. The thread isn't here to try to figure that one out. It's to give another example of the relentless rent-seeking that is going on all around the nation, and especially the SFBA. It's bad for the majority of people in the SFBA, minus the cohort of tech couples that make enough money to not care, and it will likely lead to a myriad of problems down the road when inequality is even worse and the bottom 75% gets restless and tired of being pushed further and further out.

Free markets are self regulating. As long as government doesn't start messing, it'll correct itself properly. Right now you just have a supply vs demand issue and you know that.

FortWayne says

Free markets are self regulating.

Absolutely. Free markets keep wealth flowing toward the top 1%, where it belongs!! The rest of us are just lazy slobs who DESERVE poverty.

Yawn. Last time the rents grew this fast (1998-2000) they crashed even faster (2001). Don't order that Ferrari just yet.

Straw Man says

Yawn. Last time the rents grew this fast (1998-2000) they crashed even faster (2001). Don't order that Ferrari just yet.

Ferrari? PLEASE. Lamborghini uses locally sourced, fair trade, hand-tanned leather from free range cattle. Honestly, it should be criminal to buy a car with anything that doesn't meet that ethical standard. I mean, I guess you could get cloth seats, but it should really be direct trade Bolivian cotton stuff that was hand-crafted to the tune of pan-pipes.

/Bay Area

bmwman, how many of your level headed friends are gonna populate your kids' Fortress School with their own level headed kids 20 yrs from now?

Enough for your kids to have the kind of growing up / values-forming / formative years experience you'd want them to be immersed in?

Go childless or leave The Fortress.

Or, when the time comes (and times goes quickly), be prepared to scrape them off the Caltrain tracks; or turn into adults with the kinds of values of the largest and dominant peer group.

B.A.C.A.H. says

bmwman, how many of your level headed friends are gonna populate your kids' Fortress School with their own level headed kids 20 yrs from now?

Enough for your kids to have the kind of growing up / values-forming / formative years experience you'd want them to be immersed in?

Go childless or leave The Fortress.

Or, when the time comes (and times goes quickly), be prepared to scrape them off the Caltrain tracks; or turn into adults with the kinds of values of the largest and dominant peer group.

I guess that the Fortress has grown? I am not in one of the "desirable" cities by hip and cool standards.

My plan is to send my kid(s) to parochial school anyway. Having to wear a uniform and being in an environment where teaching staff can actually enforce discipline is a big deal to me. Parental involvement is VERY important there (not all private schools are boarding houses where parents pay for someone else to do their job). I went through the parochial system and it was just fine. From what I can tell, the crazy tiger parents aren't interested in those schools because they aren't held to the same standards as public ones, and therefore don't get the same all-important numeric rating. Some of my cousins' kids go to the same school I went to, and it sounds like not too much has changed. It is CLEARLY not the most economic choice, but I have a hard time putting a price on not being able to visit extended family easily.

When the time comes to start seriously worrying about the schools, I'll reevaluate. The PNW is really nice and I like it a lot, so it is an option. I am certainly not going to be the type of parent that puts enough pressure on my kid that he/she jumps in front of a train, and they aren't going to be in a PA or Cupertino pressure cooker school either. The goal is to raise balanced, self-sufficient adults, not big neurotic children with arbitrary name-brand goals. One of my cousins works in children's mental health for the SCC school system. She purposely settled down in Cambrian because of how terribly unbalanced PA and Cupertino schools are. 6 year olds on psychotropic meds, kids killing themselves. Her take is that most South Bay schools, minus Cupertino and Fremont school districts, are still fine.

You just have to ignore the nonsensical types and focus on you and your family. The crazies are mostly confined to specific areas, and I don't live in one of those areas. Maybe it is Stockholm Syndrome, but I am not convinced that the SV is a totally lost cause.

Where is purchasing power to pay for all those stuff?
http://economy.money.cnn.com/2013/08/22/economy-income/?iid=HP_LN

REpro says

Where is purchasing power to pay for all those stuff?

http://economy.money.cnn.com/2013/08/22/economy-income/?iid=HP_LN

According to some, incomes don't matter. Housing prices will continue to rise.

Doesn’t say is inflation adjusted and do not represent SFBA (CMSA) where inflation was one of the highest.

Technically yes, because your rich Cupertino Uncle and his soon to be rich kids are in the 20%. Heck, maybe even the 1%.

REpro says

Why don’t place incentive for developers to build affordable housing, where they can enjoy similar profit margin as the luxury ones.

There are incentives. In the Windemere section of San Ramon, there are entire, huge, sprawling complexes with income restrictions. So, in the middle of all of this wealth, there is a section of the walking trail that you will soon need to avoid. Both times I was there I had pitbull encounters (different dogs each time). So, ya the incentive and the ghetto are there. Maybe I have become a complete snob, but I came from Richmond, why would I want to work hard and spend a ton of money on housing to have to avoid walking in certain parts of my own city?

rufita11 says

There are incentives. In the Windemere section of San Ramon, there are
entire, huge, sprawling complexes with income restrictions. So, in the middle of
all of this wealth, there is a section of the walking trail that you will soon
need to avoid. Both times I was there I had pitbull encounters (different dogs
each time). So, ya the incentive and the ghetto are there. Maybe I have become a
complete snob, but I came from Richmond, why would I want to work hard and spend
a ton of money on housing to have to avoid walking in certain parts of my own
city?

Yeah I know a few people in San Ramon who are mad at the "affordable housing." Claim there has been a surge in robberies and are also worried about the school district rankings.

I for one don't understand the concept-I would like to retire in Malibu -but can't. Why should taxpayers subsidize folks who can't afford to live in a certain location.

rufita11 says

here are incentives. In the Windemere section of San Ramon, there are entire, huge, sprawling complexes with income restrictions. So, in the middle of all of this wealth, there is a section of the walking trail that you will soon need to avoid. Both times I was there I had pitbull encounters (different dogs each time). So, ya the incentive and the ghetto are there. Maybe I have become a complete snob, but I came from Richmond, why would I want to work hard and spend a ton of money on housing to have to avoid walking in certain parts of my own city?

From the Muirlands at Windemere website:

The Housing Tax Credit Program allows for the lifestyle you deserve at a price you can afford!

The current income limits are:
1 Person - $39,300
2 People - $44,880
3 People - $50,520
4 People - $56,100
5 People - $60,600

That's right, if you and your spouse make a combined $56K, you and the kids "deserve" to live in San Ramon, and pay $1100 for a 3BR.

mdiablo says

lifestyle you deserve

'Murica, FUCK YEAH

SFace says

y uncle lives in Cupertino and has four kids, and will buy four homes to each of his four kids (mountain view, Sunnyale you name it).

I'm talking of the other 80%.
And in fact I'm talking of those that didn't buy 40 years ago, and that aren't sucking the big tit in some other way.

I meaning basically these tech people who come here for regular work and that are expected to pay all they have to maintain this situation.
These people should leave.

SFace says

A 25 year old makes about 80K but bought a 800K condo in south beach in January. Bank of Mom and Dad obviously fronted 400K or so.

Nice gift to your kids: loading them with a mortgage 5 times their puny salary, and a 'gift' of $400K that could disappear in short order for no particularly good reason.

mdiablo says

the lifestyle you deserve at a price you can afford!

Then, I presume some people “deserve” a $30 cup of coffee from local Starbucks.

md said: That's right, if you and your spouse make a combined $56K, you and the kids "deserve" to live in San Ramon, and pay $1100 for a 3BR.
Well, where would you like the teachers to live?

EBGuy says

md said: That's right, if you and your spouse make a combined $56K, you and the kids "deserve" to live in San Ramon, and pay $1100 for a 3BR.

Well, where would you like the teachers to live?

Teachers make too much to qualify for those rents, even the single ones. Those deals are reserved for the all important barristas. God save us from the $30 latte.

Teachers can live in San Leandro.

bmwman91 says

the Fortress has grown

I dunno.

A self-identified immigrant who claimed to live in Cupertino with the handle "OO" used " fortress" to describe areas are were immune from the price declines during the time that home prices were crashing everywhere else. He explained that those such places were a "fortress" against price declines.

He did not mention about "Cupertino Schools". Though there certainly is an overlap between Standardized Test Scores indices and Fortress real estate, it wasn't his point, which I thought was made with kiasu-kind of (obnoxious) panache. He hasn't posted in years, but I've kept his fortress appellation alive in deference to his bravado, and capitalized it for emphasis.

I suppose that the definition of The Fortress sort of varies by person. My definition is largely based on the cynicism found over on Burbed. It consists of Cupertino, (now) MV, PA and Menlo Park. "The Schools" seems to be the main driving factor, and the drivers largely seem to be those that are unaware that there's no GaoKao system here and people that want to keep up an appearance that they are doing everything to "give their child the absolute best."

The only coworkers of mine that tried to convince me to buy into Cupertino or Palo Alto were from China, India and Russia. It started out being all about the schools, but their core reasoning in the end was all based on future house price appreciation. When I told them that I bought in what is effectively San Jose, they were like, "oh...well...good for you." I found it righteously amusing, but to each their own. I almost think that it is better that that group covets specific areas and self-confines to them. There are still plenty of normal people in the south bay. You just don't notice them all that much because they are busy minding their own business and living life.

It is kind of myth about schools in Fortress area. I can agree that students can be smart and push to the max by ambitious parents. Teachers I don’t think so are any better than anywhere else. School facilities however… OMG… 3-rd world. Mostly looks like complex of mobile homes randomly arranged on ground.
I definitely won’t be anxious to attend them as a child.

Bmwman where did you end up buying ( zip code ) ?

REpro says

It is kind of myth about schools in Fortress area. I can agree that students can be smart and push to the max by ambitious parents. Teachers I don’t think so are any better than anywhere else.

I agree, the Fortress teachers aren't much better. But, the advantage is that a high percentage of the kids come ready to learn, and it's just expected that everyone will study and do well. Whereas in other places, some of the kids will come in below grade level and the teachers will have to spend more time with them.

There's definitely pros and cons to both; a given above-average kid will be more likely to be at the top of the class in the latter school.

And BMWman's plan to send kids to parochial school is good too; from a financial standpoint it's better to buy in a cheaper place and send one kid to parochial school. Maybe even two. With three or more the math may be different.

Plus with that plan you can buy in the cheaper part of an expensive city. Eg Los Gatos with Union schools is cheaper than LG with LG schools. or Saratoga with Moreland or Campbell schools as compared to Cupertino or Saratoga schools.

cloud15 says

Bmwman where did you end up buying ( zip code ) ?

I'm probably not going to get that specific about personal residence information on a forum.

SiO2 says

And BMWman's plan to send kids to parochial school is good too; from a financial standpoint it's better to buy in a cheaper place and send one kid to parochial school. Maybe even two. With three or more the math may be different.

I ran the math a while ago, based on today's tuition and such. It is indeed a better dollar value to buy a cheaper house and send one kid through the parochial system. Two kids and it is almost a wash. Three or more, you would be financially better off in a "good" district, although you had better have health coverage that includes psychotropic meds for your kids.

E-Man and I were talking once, and he had a fair point that buying in Cupertino or some such place is really just a pass-through cost. Live there, put your kids through the system and then you will very likely be able to sell the house to the next aspiring tiger parent and move somewhere cheaper. That's a valid point, as long as you want to put your kids through there. I don't, so it wasn't the most compelling argument to me personally, but it is perfectly valid for many people. It all depends on what your goals as a parent are. If you want your kid to grow up and be a high earning doctor or lawyer, then you need to get them used to and numb to suicide-inducing pressure from the start, and they need to be taught that their peers are their enemies that will consume them if they want to survive law or med school. That seems like child abuse to me.

Child abuse?

You think?

http://www.nytimes.com/uwire/uwire_QPC05312007556740.html

Interesting article

"The consequences of someone getting a 'B' in a class at Stanford really aren't that great in the context of career decisions and career opportunities," he said. "In other cultures they can be significant."

But isn't a B at Stanford the same as a F at most schools? Maybe you should kill yourself.

bmwman91 says

If you want your kid to grow up and be a high earning doctor or lawyer, then you need to get them used to and numb to suicide-inducing pressure from the start, and they need to be taught that their peers are their enemies that will consume them if they want to survive law or med school

Well. I am high earning, and don't believe that my peers are my enemies. Many people on this board are high earning, and don't hold this belief. BMWman, you must be fairly high earning to buy a house in SJ, and I'm sure you don't hold this belief.

The advantage of Fortress schools is that the general expectation is high achievement, and people can respond to high expectations with high achievement. Of course, not every child has the same innate capability, so parents have to consider this. But having low expectations will correlate to low achievement.

SiO2 says

having low expectations will correlate to low achievement.

Depends on what those expectations are for.

Like, ethics or grades?

I can think of more than one way to get good grades.

SiO2 says

Well. I am high earning, and don't believe that my peers are my enemies. Many people on this board are high earning, and don't hold this belief. BMWman, you must be fairly high earning to buy a house in SJ, and I'm sure you don't hold this belief.

The advantage of Fortress schools is that the general expectation is high achievement, and people can respond to high expectations with high achievement. Of course, not every child has the same innate capability, so parents have to consider this. But having low expectations will correlate to low achievement.

I should have been more specific. When I say "high earning" I generally mean pulling a single income of $300k+, more specifically in law or medicine. By any rational standard, engineers and such are high earning in the context of the nation and world. It's just SV silliness that makes an engineering salary seem "small." Hitting mid- to high-six-figures is pretty uncommon for engineers though (GOOG and AAPL are exceptions), and you sort of need to be in an executive seat to pull that money if you are in tech. I have relatives that have been through law and med school over the last decade, and it's dog-eat-dog. Only the top percentage of people in their class get the really good, high paying positions. As more people want to get to those positions, so increases the competition. Parents that want their kids to go that route probably need to train them from an early age. Maybe it didn't used to be that way, but competition is fiercer now than ever.

I certainly don't view my peers as enemies, and very few of them seem to have an attitude like that. We also don't make anywhere near $300k. You are right in that being in an environment where there are high expectations and an academic focus is the norm can be very conducive to learning. Attending a school where kids with good grades get beaten up for being nerds isn't. There's a balance though, between encouraging academic excellence and living life. The "top" school districts seem to have gone full-tilt toward academics such that it IS life for kids and parents have pre-determined what their kids will do in life.

Not full tilt towards learning and growing.

Just full tilt towards high scores. ( Grade grubbing). Call it academics if you want to.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Not full tilt towards learning and growing.

Just full tilt towards high scores. ( Grade grubbing). Call it academics if you want to.

Fair enough. Personally, "academics" is something that is more reserved for post-graduates. Learning to think is what kids are supposed to be doing prior to that. There is plenty of information to be absorbed while doing that. I am not sure if ANY school system in the US is set up for that anymore. Reading about the great mathematicians and thinkers throughout history, one thing that they all seemed to have in common was a lot of free, unstructured time during their youth coupled with parents that knew the importance of scholastic rigor when the time was appropriate. Walks in the forest, hiking, kicking around in hay fields. They weren't being forced to memorize facts to pass scantron exams during every waking moment. Causation isn't correlation, but the human mind seems to need freedom to grow.. I guess that we both know that "growing the mind" isn't what the whole top-schools discussion is about though.

bmwman, in the cubicle warren and similar such places I am most discouraged about the youth in our region.

But when I have my boots on the ground at local public schools it's the opposite.

It sounds like a contradiction but that's because I'm not about to go into such detail on a blog. I am sure many will call me a hypocrite, maybe a liar, etc.

Whatever. Sticks and stones.

I can fill you in if you're ever interested at Sabor Salvadoreno.

Well, it's good to know that there's reason to be positive where it counts (where the kids are). For some reason I thought that you were up in the PNW since you speak highly of it.

I'll take you up on the offer sometime. Isabella's over by 280 & Winchester is also pretty killer if you are into South American food. Not sure if I have tried Salvadorian food before.

SiO2 , To add on to your comment :
You can buy in LOs Gatos with union schools or you can buy in San Jose with union schools, which might be cheaper than buying in LG ( union schools ).

bmwman91 says

E-Man and I were talking once, and he had a fair point that buying in Cupertino or some such place is really just a pass-through cost. Live there, put your kids through the system and then you will very likely be able to sell the house to the next aspiring tiger parent and move somewhere cheaper. That's a valid point, as long as you want to put your kids through there.

Depends. The payment on a $1.5M house in The Fortress with its "great" schools will be 2-3x more than the payment on an otherwise equivalent house in a cheaper area with very good schools. Can you afford a payment of $4-9k/mo for 12 years or is a payment of $2-3k/mo more in line with your household income?

Pass through costs are fine if you can afford to carry them. If not you'll be moving a lot sooner than you think.

New Renter says

bmwman91 says

E-Man and I were talking once, and he had a fair point that buying in Cupertino or some such place is really just a pass-through cost. Live there, put your kids through the system and then you will very likely be able to sell the house to the next aspiring tiger parent and move somewhere cheaper. That's a valid point, as long as you want to put your kids through there.

Depends. The payment on a $1.5M house in The Fortress with its "great" schools will be 2-3x more than the payment on an otherwise equivalent house in a cheaper area with very good schools. Can you afford a payment of $4-9k/mo for 12 years or is a payment of $2-3k/mo more in line with your household income?

Pass through costs are fine if you can afford to carry them. If not you'll be moving a lot sooner than you think.

Yes, whether its a pass-through cost or some other cost, all cost have an effect on the bottom line. Incomes matter.

Also lets be honest, when people buy in an area with "good schools", they are really buying something else.