patrick.net

I don't think that I have ever seen shrek use a proper "logic trap" in conversation. Often he has trouble with just the basic logic, and first to set a logical trap you need to have a logical argument, and facts.

Implication, metaphor, etc. are not "traps" or "tricks". They can be cleverly used, but one using them should expect others to pickup on the insinuation. It might seem like magic to some, but you can actually say things in the English language without directly or explicitly stating them.

leoj707 says

It is kind of funny how liberals, generally speaking, are spineless and let themselves be walked upon, but basically the moderate conservatives have done the same thing by letting the extreme seize control of their party.

I agree with this. Obama's a great example. He just won't get on TV and say things that need to be said, like "It is our obligation as a country to provide some minimal level of health care for every citizen, the same way we provide for the common defense."

At least he finally managed to say something about the unfairly low taxation of billionaires, after Warren Buffett came out and said it first.

And where are all the reasonable Republicans? Why do we hear only from the ones shouting incoherent slander all the time? I suppose reasonable Republicans immediately get attacked as RINO's (Republicans In Name Only) because they are simply not extreme enough.

So Shrek is gone.

I know that he believed that what happens on Patnet is "real" and that he was fighting the man, to some extent. But he was obnoxious and rude, hijacking every thread.

Now that he's gone, tho, let's forget him and not pay homage to him. Ellies gonna go ride a horse in Shrek's honor now.

I agree with this. Obama's a great example. He just won't get on TV and say things that need to be said,

Yeah, great example. One of the reasons why I like Elizabeth Warren so much. Not sure if you have seen this thread yet:
http://patrick.net/?p=1050539

But, she says what needs to be said.

And where are all the reasonable Republicans?

Good question, and when are they going to say enough is enough and take their party back?

elliemae says

Now that he's gone, tho, let's forget him and not pay homage to him.

Is he really gone though? I agree that we should not pay homage, but those that forget the past are doomed to repeat it.

Bellingham Bob says

the deficit was tailing down during Bush's second term . . .

People like me have been complaining about the national debt and the deficit since 1985, and I was watching Transformers at that time. The mass conservative media outlet has only started complaining vocally since Obama took presidency. They went from "deficits don't matter; Reagan proved that" to "we must cut everything, but we can't raise taxes on the richest 1%" real quick.

I would accept the sincerity of the Tea Party if they had bitched and moaned about Bush's excessive war-time spending. Still, they won't admit that the Bush/Cheney administration went wrong when they took the surplus of the Clinton years and squandered it.

And yes, I'll be the first person to say that is wasn't Clinton but rather people like me building the Internet that made the 1990s so prosperous. However, we're still reaping the benefits of the Internet and corporate profits are rolling in; it's just that the common man ain't getting any of that prosperity because it's all being syphoned by the richest fraction of 1%.

MarsAttacks! says

Shrek believes that Bin Laden died in some cave of natural causes years ago...when the government suddenly stopped pouring resources into finding him like they were doing before. So, what he wrote made sense IF he explained that as well.

Unfortunately, he sure wasn't good at stating this position in a clear manner. I can honestly say that I've never intentionally misinterpreted Shrek. I think, though, he enjoyed misinterpreting others.

However, I find it hard to buy that Bin Laden died years ago. How would you explain the recent intelligence of plans for 9/11's 10th anniversary? Unless you want to say that's a conspiracy too.

MarsAttacks! says

'tag teaming against the liberal horde'

The thing is, we're not actually far-left. Lennon was far left. If we appear far-left it's because the far-right has gone to lala land. Most of the sentiments expressed on this website are centrist at worst, or at least what would have been considered centrist for most of the 20th century (before the great polarization of America).

shrekgrinch2 says

Hahaha! They didn't make sense to begin with, so what are ya bitching about?

Ah, classic Shrek. Never explains his assertions that everyone else is crazy. I have a theory that Shrek and Mars are the same person, but they don't know it. It's like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde thing. Or maybe Spock vs. the evil Kirk from the parallel universe.

leoj707 says

I don't think that I have ever seen shrek use a proper "logic trap" in conversation. Often he has trouble with just the basic logic, and first to set a logical trap you need to have a logical argument, and facts.

I do logic for a living. That's basically everything a software developer does. I can assure you that Shrek is incapable of any kind of "logic trap". He'd likely get his own foot stuck in the trap. Now an illogic trap...

What are the other 75 rules? I think I probably need to learn those too.

I was just embellishing there. However, there are probably a few dozen guidelines. Of course, it depends on what camp you fall into. I'm an OO guy myself so I like object-relational mappings and perhaps some JDBC/ODBC, but I have found that data-centric people prefer stored procedures to implement all business logic. Naturally what rules you follow will differ greatly between those two camps.

I suppose reasonable Republicans immediately get attacked as RINO's (Republicans In Name Only) because they are simply not extreme enough.

Did you see the Tea Party / Republican debate? They even boo'd Rick Perry for not shooting Mexicans on sight. When the moderator asked Ron Paul if the state should let an uninsured young man die, the crowd shouted "YES!" These piranhas will attack their own. I suppose that's a good thing. Fox News created the Tea Party but lost control of it. Now the Tea Party threatens to destroy the Republican Party. I guess they regret opening that Pandora's Box of Crazy.

shrekgrinch2 says

sorry, couldn't resist.

I should have known you faked your own death. The album you released was a dead giveaway.

Dan8267 says

I have a theory that Shrek and Mars are the same person, but they don't know it.

Oh, that is something to consider...

Dan8267 says

I should have known you faked your own death. The album you released was a dead giveaway.

Ah, ha nice reference.

Obama's a great example. He just won't get on TV and say things that need to be said, like "It is our obligation as a country to provide some minimal level of health care for every citizen, the same way we provide for the common defense."

Obama is in campaign mode now. He's starting to say stuff like this again. I doubt his second term will be any more successful than his first though. He might make an impact if the Democrats get a super-duper majority in both houses. Having a mere super-majority didn't help.

Dan, the Dems didn't have a supermajority in the Senate for that long (between Franken being seated and Scott Brown taking Kennedy's seat), and at any rate what is necessary is a supermajority of *liberal* dems not just dems.

The House is somewhat different since it is strictly majoritarian.

Here's a cool graph:

showing how the more-conservative right-tail of Senate Dems was able to control everything in 2009-2010.

MarsAttacks! says

You say 'tom-ayto', I say 'tom-ahhto' and shrek says 'Obambi'. It's all relative.

You say intensive interrogation. I say torture. You say eugenics. I say genocide. You say high pressured intimate relations. I say rape. Yep, it's all in the wording isn't it?

Here's a little math problem for you.

How many legs does a dog have if you call the tail a leg?

Answer: Four. Calling a tail a leg doesn't make it a leg.

MarsAttacks! says

Avoid the forums? Shrek told me it was bad, but I didn't know it was that bad. That's why I started reading them again to see what he was talking about.

Your buddy drove people away due to his constant personal attacks. It's sad that he thought it was "bad" without recognizing that he made it that way.

MarsAttacks! says

He DOES like to say things constructed in 'logical trap's that trick people into thinking he said something that he actually did not. He does it to me all the time. I've gotten better at paying attention to what he actually says as a result.

Cool. We done talking about your friend, now? He was offensive and I certainly hope that he's gone.

MarsAttacks! says

I didn't know I had be on p-net every waking moment just to wait a question from you.

Well, now that you read his question, you could technically answer it.

And the duck takes round one.

Bellingham Bob says

Dan, the Dems didn't have a supermajority in the Senate for that long (between Franken being seated and Scott Brown taking Kennedy's seat), and at any rate what is necessary is a supermajority of *liberal* dems not just dems.

Actually no one owns a seat. One could argue that Coakley might have deserved the seat but she ran a really bad campaign. SNL even joked if she ran for mayor of Berkley against Cheney she'd lose.

I hear you though. In all honestly I would say that the concept at least of a north american liberal is dead. The last liberal president was Nixon. I can make arguments on how Clinton (easily) and Carter were not liberal..they might have tried at first but they weren't.

The problem that the left makes is that they go for people due to popularity rather than those that spent some time. Here's an example. In 2004 unions backed Dean rather than Gephardt. Dean overspent and ran out of cash quickly leading to Kerry to pretty much take the lead.
Kerry frankly didn't really compete well. He actually helped take down BCCI back in the 1980's but didn't even mention it.

In order for any group to gain legitimacy they would have to have a number of wins on their belt. Going after health care is a pretty big goal. The framing should be on more less controversial issues. Who today can only argue that we are winning the war on drugs? Nixon, Reagan, Bush 41...how come democrats don't sponsor decriminalization? It would easily save the government money. Many states have or are moving in this direction.

Some issues you cannot win. Gun control doesn't make that much sense to advocate.it's no longer a major issue...the environment is getting in the same boat.

Some of the terminology can be changed to win various arguments. Same sex marriage should be rephrased to be a "freedom" to marry rather than a "right". Democrats could win in many areas just by changing that.

I think the biggest flaw is that democrats don't "sell" government. If they stand for something they should at least defend it.

MarsAttacks! says

Can you provide a list for me of who is a liberal on this thread and who isn't?

Again, with the labels! You want I should lay down & die?!

Sorry, momentary lapse - I channeled my jewish grandmother.

So... how long are we going to pretend that Mars is not shrek?

IMarsAttacks! says

leoj707 says

So... how long are we going to pretend that Mars is not shrek?

Wow....lot of paranoia here.

Ack! Acck!

It is not paranoia if they are really after you.

Besides, so what if you are shrek what has that got to do with paranoia?

MarsAttacks! says

leoj707 says

It is not paranoia if they are really afer you.

Touché!

So, why are you guys 'after me'? Because I am Shrek's bud? (sorry Elliemae...but it isn't my fault, really!)

Ack! Acck!

Um... you were callin me(us) paranoid, so would it not be then you who is after us?

Hi shrek! I see your exile was only temporary... really temporary.

MarsAttacks! says

Yes, but more like to get them off track of their topic so then he can start having his fun with them.

Isn't this what trolls do?

So are there any nominees for the reincarnated "Shrekgrinch"? Perhaps he has commented already on this one.

I miss shrek. Dueling with shrek was like shooting rabbits with a cannon. Almost too easy. Now I will have to engage with people who are smarter (that would be almost anyone) and where I actually have to think first.

bob2356 says

I miss shrek. Dueling with shrek was like shooting rabbits with a cannon. Almost too easy. Now I will have to engage with people who are smarter (that would be almost anyone) and where I actually have to think first.

I'm all for beating a dead horse, if it allows for closure.

Shrek wasn't stupid - it was obvious that he's functional in society. He claimed to be a programmer of some type; many people who work in the sciences lack the ability to function appropriately in the real world. If I were a professional, I would venture to guess that he has some issues dealing with people in the real world, some type of personality disorder wherein he takes a perverse joy in creating disharmony. Perhaps he's Borderline Personality disorder; I've seen two borderlines clear a room with their behaviors.

But I'm not a professional therapist, so this is pure conjecture.

shooting rabbits with a cannon would be almost impossible. You'd have better luck swatting them with the ram-rod.

shooting rabbits with a Gatlin Gun ... now, that may be effective population control.

Bap33 says

shooting rabbits with a cannon would be almost impossible. You'd have better luck swatting them with the ram-rod.

shooting rabbits with a Gatlin Gun ... now, that may be effective population control.

Maybe it'd be more like catching gophers with M-80's. We used to do that...

I tip my 40 in memory of Shrekgrinch. He was a loyal water-boy for all gentlemen of stature and merit.

Actually, I got one too many complaints about Shrek so I've deleted him for now.

But I'm sure he'll be back in some incarnation.

Then you should delete me too, then you guys can sit around Liberally glad hand each other, void of any counter points to your non sense.

This thread is testament to you guys ALL OF YOU, hypercritical double standards. Patrick you send emails to folks telling them about civility and to be nice. Yet you tolerate this thread, which was started as an instigation to stir up Shrek and get a rise out of him. Now he's deleted.

You guys have fun sucking each others Harry Reid.

elliemae says

I'm all for beating a dead horse, if it allows for closure.

I'm not beating a dead horse, I always thought shrek was hysterical. His postings were nonsense of course, but great fun to poke holes in. The man had something like 10,000 postings and managed to totally avoid presenting a single actual fact even by accident. An admirable accomplishment.

Tenouncetrout says

Then you should delete me too, then you guys can sit around Liberally glad hand each other, void of any counter points to your non sense.

Shrek was a self proclaimed asshole who hijacked every thread. You post your (often unintelligible) comments without personal attacks. You don't hijack every thread, which he did. You aren't nasty, accusing, etc...

Tot, you're not a troll. So far as I can tell, you're a cool guy that I'd hang out with if I were in Florida. We may not have the same views, but you understand the difference between the real world and the interwebs. If you want to leave, that's your choice - but you would be sorely missed.

Shrek, on the other hand, will not. I do hope that he stays gone; if he comes back, it'd be nice if he understood the difference between conversation and trolling.

Yes, this thread is too much, just a personal insult. But it is funny too, IMHO.

I don't really want to be a policeman/parent. I need some better kind of moderation system.

bob2356 says

The man had something like 10,000 postings and managed to totally avoid presenting a single actual fact even by accident.

Maybe he had some facts in there, but I agree that it was really all about his hate for Obama and liberals.

Yes, this thread is too much, just a personal insult. But it is funny too, IMHO.

It's as if some people believe it's a conspiracy. IMHO it wasn't about his beliefs, it was about his approach.

Marcus says

Shrek on the other hand truly seemed hell bent on adding a lot of teabagger Glenn Beck bs to a forum that is (or was) mostly frequented by fairly moderate individuals.

Which is fine. The problem for me was his basic unwillingness to discuss any point beyond a "snort-gurgle-heehee-snort-ah,screwyou" level, and his complete lack of understanding of what constitutes crossing the line between personal and public discussion standards.

Yes, this thread is too much, just a personal insult. But it is funny too, IMHO.

I don't really want to be a policeman/parent. I need some better kind of moderation system.

bob2356 says

The man had something like 10,000 postings and managed to totally avoid presenting a single actual fact even by accident.

Maybe he had some facts in there, but I agree that it was really all about his hate for Obama and liberals.

Patrick, why are you putting up my post as the example of personal insult? My statement may be a little bit (just a teeny tiny bit) of hyperbole, but I did say it was an admirable accomplishment. I will suitably modify my statement. Shrek never presented me with a single fact. Better?

I was the (probably the only) one that said I missed him. I never took him seriously and actually enjoyed jousting with him. I was always amused when he/she/it would present some incoherent jumble of a statement then tell everyone they had a reading comprehension problem. Very funny. I will admit the Obama is responsible for everything from the big bang to toenail fungus schtick got a little old.

bob2356 says

I was the (probably the only) one that said I missed him

You'll have to aim better. Ha!

I don't really want to be a policeman/parent. I need some better kind of moderation system.

Na' I think this thread is working out fine. At least it let's people express their honest feelings.

If nothing else, this thread brings up an important question. Can liberals and conservatives constructively talk with each other in a forum? Also, can either talk with moderates without accusing the moderates of being their polar opposites?

Perhaps elliemae said it best with the animate gif of a guy banging his head against the wall. But perhaps that's the only way to tear down the walls between the left and the right.

Patrick,
It's your field, your ball, and your game. You pick the teams and the rules. That is exactly how it should be. If Schrek don't like it, he can start Schrek.net or whatever.

Oh, my... I disappear for a few weeks and I miss the death of my favorite cartoon character. I'll almost miss the insane borderline/antisocial rantings coupled with endless personal attacks.

Mars Attacks = Shrekgrinch

There is no doubt. People like shrekgrinch don't have friends. They have imaginary friends that are characters in their psyches whom they play when their old characters finally out-stay their welcome. The Internet is swarming with them.

My best professional guess is that people like Shrekgrinch/Mars Attacks don't function anywhere else but on the Internet. The Internet allows them enough anonymity to carry out their desire for connection that they won't get in the real world because most people won't tolerate these people in person for very long.

It's quite sad actually. These are people who have never had a secure primary attachment. There is always a vast gaping hole in their psyches that can't ever be filled.

Oh well. Make no mistake Shrekgrinch/Mars Attacks will always exist in some form on forums like patrick.net. They need these places to feel connected. They will always find their way in and will elude even the best attempts at moderation. Boundaries and limits are anathema to these people. They can't tolerate them.

remember Sim, all there is of Shrek is words on a screen ... a made-up persona .... the creator could just as well be your best friend just having fun roll-playing ... or it could be Bill Clinton killing some time between inturns (lol) .... or, the persona could match the author to a tee .... but, at any rate, the entire blogville area is make believe.