patrick.net

The rules are such that if you're rich you can already get a visa so this doesn't change too much.

http://www.quora.com/What-is-immigration-like-for-wealthy-rich-people

"A number of countries essentially will sell immigration access to the wealthy, by offering immigrant status either for a flat out fee, or for a promise to invest in a business and create jobs. The USA, Canada and many other nations have done this."

tts says

"A number of countries essentially will sell immigration access to the wealthy, by offering immigrant status either for a flat out fee, or for a promise to invest in a business and create jobs. The USA, Canada and many other nations have done this."

That paragraph really simplifies matters a bit. It's not as simple as just paying a flat out fee here, and it's not as simple as just promising to invest in a business. The process is more complicated than that, as I've said on previous threads.

The proposal made by those in Congress is silly. All it would do if foreigners jump on this is make the price of housing go up for everyone else. That's not really a good thing, as I said on another thread, but maybe it'll end up like Pebble Beach...

Still, I do question whether this would actually work. People would have to think buying a house here is a good investment and worth the money. Even if you live somewhere that's not as expensive as SF, LA, or NY, buying a cheaper house and then buying a rental property is property not worth it to many foreigners -- it's a hassle to have a rental property to them, even with a manager, and they might not be convinced it's a good investment. I think people often overassume the desire of rich foreigners to uproot and move here when they try to hype these things.

She says nearly every listing she's put on the market in San Marino "has had at least one full price cash offer from a buyer from mainland China."

Liar. Every used house salesman says stuff like this, but the statistics never bear it out.

I was just in HK/China, and I talked a lot with friends/relatives about buying property in the US. There is a grain of truth in these claims about foreigners buying stuff up in the US, but it is mostly hype. For those wealthy enough that money is NO object, sure, they would consider buying a house in the US as a status symbol and as somewhere to escape summer heat. For the majority of newly-wealthy Chinese, they see property as an investment, and buying in the US is a dumb idea to them. This is mostly due to the taxes levied on property here (and income if one were to consider moving here). From a financial standpoint, moving from China to the US is a really stupid move for someone with wealth, and most foreigners know this. Hence, there really aren't mobs of foreigners "snapping everything up" in the RBA. While open houses may be full of Indians & Chinese in higher-end areas, I would bet that most are naturalized US citizens that have worked hard and saved.

Some folks may recall a couple of previous posts from me that were of a somewhat contrary opinion. My opinion has changed now that I have actually gone and talked with some of these "wealthy foreigners."

bmwman91 says

While open houses may be full of Indians & Chinese in higher-end areas, I would bet that most are naturalized US citizens that have worked hard and saved.

Yes, and in fact Census statistics agree that a lot of people in so-called "fortress" cities are immigrants who have lived here for a long time. They might speak a funny language and people named Maggie Navarro who sells houses in San Marino might not understand their native language, but they're from here, for all intents and purposes.

bmwman91 says

I was just in HK/China, and I talked a lot with friends/relatives about buying property in the US. There is a grain of truth in these claims about foreigners buying stuff up in the US, but it is mostly hype. For those wealthy enough that money is NO object, sure, they would consider buying a house in the US as a status symbol and as somewhere to escape summer heat. For the majority of newly-wealthy Chinese, they see property as an investment, and buying in the US is a dumb idea to them. This is mostly due to the taxes levied on property here (and income if one were to consider moving here). From a financial standpoint, moving from China to the US is a really stupid move for someone with wealth, and most foreigners know this.

Yes, exactly. In order to keep gaining that wealth, those people have strong incentives to stay in China. What are they going to do, get an engineer job in Silicon Valley? People who got rich in China are either robber baron types (in which case there's little incentive to move to somewhere they might be subject to criminal enforcement action) or they are super smart and want to keep their money intact and don't necessarily see an overpriced suburban house that needs work as a good investment in a country that is having economic failings while China appears to be prospering (and let's be honest, many Americans and resident immigrants see housing as an investment too, whether wrongly or rightly).

Sure, people are far more mobile and can telecommute more, but there is a certain level of inertia to uprooting your family, especially when moving to a different country and when you need visas and other things. Some people say, "it's for American schooling," but that's a stupid rationale because if you're in China, you can pay for schooling better than a Cupertino public school at some elite private school (perhaps even a school for international kids).

By the way, a crappy house in the suburbs is not really a trophy property for a rich person when cost is no object -- even for Chinese and HKers that are used to living in cramped spaces. That said, even though many people claimed that lots of rich Chinese were buying condos in San Francisco in the overpriced luxury towers that were built recently, whether as pied a terre or otherwise, the high foreclosure and subsequent sales stats of those buildings have not borne that claim out either.

Some of you are probably going to cite the people who steal money from the Chinese government and need to get it the hell out of China, but how often does that really happen? Just because you read one article from a random news source that 1 person did this doesn't mean it's common.

By the way, the Chinese mafia types who hide out here typically don't buy property (because they don't want to be found!) and come here illegally usually (again, don't want a paper trail). They don't even necessarily feel safe in the US in some cases...

It's the "Damn foreigners are taking all our houses and women" mentality.

This would be an utterly useless bill. It's a residence visa, who would it appeal to? Foreign retirees aren't going to move here with this. Where would they get health care insurance? It would cost tens of thousands every year, if it were even available, for something they get free in their home countries. Working people aren't going to move based on this. It's a residence only visa. Truly wealthy people can get in already with a full EB-5 visa for investment so they don't need it. Foreign investors that aren't going to live here don't have any problems buying now. What's the point?

There are lots of websites popping up lately advising people that buying real estate in the US is a really bad investment. Typical example http://www.jenman.com.au/news_alert.php?id=109 There are lots of hucksters out there and people are getting burned left and right. It's a situation starting to really hitting the radar overseas, especially in the pacific rim and austrolasia.

TechGromit says

It's the "Damn foreigners are taking all our houses and women" mentality.

Someone needs to make an Antoine Dodson mashup about this.

BMWman91 is correct. There are lots of foreign-born people buying in SFBA, but, mainly people who came as students, worked in high tech, saved up, now can buy. The people buying now (age 35-45) weren't from rich families typically - they came with $1000 or less, got MS degrees and worked on research while living very cheaply, then got engineering jobs.

However, it is true that these people do buy these houses, and are willing and able to spend a higher % of income on housing because they spend less elsewhere.

I do know some people living in China who would like to buy US property for investment, but, SFBA is not a great place to own a rental. Plus this is rife with risk for getting ripped off for someone relying on a US property manager.

SiO2 says

I do know some people living in China who would like to buy US property for investment, but, SFBA is not a great place to own a rental. Plus this is rife with risk for getting ripped off for someone relying on a US property manager.

Agree, the Bay Area is not a great place to get cash flow overall, relative to many other areas.

It's bad enough living in another state with respect to getting ripped off by a property manager. You need to keep an eye on things. Imagine living in a foreign country and not necessarily being a native English speaker to boot. They'll run all over you.

SiO2 says

The people buying now (age 35-45) weren't from rich families typically - they came with $1000 or less, got MS degrees and worked on research while living very cheaply, then got engineering jobs.

If a SV company needs to hire an Engineer they are certianly doing so outside of the region/country.

Like Oracle below, Engineers are not important in the monthly running or results of many local SV companies. Many are working on long term projects which have no bearing on being close to company operations.

I dont expect Larry Ellison to walk downstairs into some fabled R&D floor of his towers and ask around "How are we doing for the Quarter, are we going to do hit our EPS numbers, how are the sales quotes for the top 3 regions doing. Is our OPX in line with forecasts?"

Like so many other CEOs its about having daily contact with Sales Admin, Legal and Accounting on how the business is doing.

I dont know why some think somehow R&D needs to be close to the mothership. Walk inside and its a completly different pricture than what many outsiders believe.

Oracle 10K

Employees
As of May 31, 2011, we employed approximately 108,000 full-time employees, including approximately 27,000 in sales and marketing, approximately 9,000 in
software license updates and product support, approximately 1,000 in the manufacturing of our hardware systems products, approximately 6,000 in hardware
systems support, approximately 25,000 in services, approximately 30,000 in research and development and approximately 10,000 in general and administrative
positions.

Of these employees, approximately 39,000 were located in the United States and approximately 69,000 were employed internationally. None of our
employees in the United States is represented by a labor union; however, in certain foreign subsidiaries workers’ councils represent our employees.

Item 2. Properties
Our properties consist of owned and leased office facilities for sales, support, research and development, consulting, manufacturing and administrative personnel.
Our headquarters facility consists of approximately 2.1 million square feet in Redwood City, California, substantially all of which we own. We lease our
principal internal manufacturing facility for our hardware systems products in Hillsboro, Oregon. We also own or lease other office facilities for current use
consisting of approximately 27.1 million square feet in various other locations in the United States and abroad. We believe our facilities are in good condition
and suitable for the conduct of our business. Approximately 6.5 million square feet, or 22%, of total owned and leased space is sublet or is being actively
marketed for sublease or disposition.

corntrollio says

Some of you are probably going to cite the people who steal money from the Chinese government and need to get it the hell out of China, but how often does that really happen? Just because you read one article from a random news source that 1 person did this doesn't mean it's common.

Could be, but also may be a legit transfer via legal means. That would mean it was the Foreign Company that has paid cash to house one of its employees who relocated. This is also true with US employees who relocate by have the US company foot the bill. There is also goverment offices such as consulates which have been set up (like in SF). Real owners being the foreign government and not personal as some may have ben mislead.

Hearing that some rich foreigner "personally" puchased a home may well be more suspect or certainly twisting the truth.

mdovell says

Shouldn't the visa process be more contingent on some given skill set of abilities

I know quite a few "male order brides", don't you?

Immigration to this country has become so oppresssive.
Million's of legal and illegal immigrants have been imported and allowed into our country to depress wages in construction, manufacturing, and the service industries. Bill Gates and his cronies cry for more h1b visas to bring in more programmers to undercut American wages. Now the real estate industry wants visas attached to real estate contracts, to buy houses that Americans won't.

Who is the winner in mass immigration to America?
It's not Americans!
It's politicians like Shumer and his Republican counterpart that we call the cheap labor lobby! They are traitors and care for nothing but cheap labor, the welfare of the country be damned!

We have 20 million unemployed Americans, yet Washington continues to import 1 million new immigrants each year! all to put down-ward pressure on American wages.

I say we need an immigration moratorium until the unemployment rate reaches 5%.

This story totally illustrates the callus way Washington is distroying our country.

First Washington allows in millions of legal and illegal immigrants to depress wages, and does this for decades.

Then when everyones incomes have stagnated for a decade, and is too poor to buy over priced houses, Washington says:

"well if you Americans won't buy those overpriced houses we will just import people who will".

Folks it's time to wake up. Who's side are they on?

It is not ours!

Where is the outrage? $500K is about the median price int he SFBA fortress. There are plenty of people who will be granted this special visa. This is just yet another govt. distortion of the RE market.

I want to hear what Patrick has to say, this is instigated by Shumer, cmmon patrick, you gonna defend Shumer?

propitup1 says

"well if you Americans won't buy those overpriced houses we will just import people who will".

Folks it's time to wake up. Who's side are they on?

It is not ours!

GUBMINT already made it's decision. Save the people or save the banks.
Don't throw out your Girl Scout Uniforms !

propitup1 says

Million's of legal and illegal immigrants have been imported and allowed into our country to depress wages in construction, manufacturing, and the service industries. Bill Gates and his cronies cry for more h1b visas to bring in more programmers to undercut American wages. Now the real estate industry wants visas attached to real estate contracts, to buy houses that Americans won't.

You are wrong on this. Letting in documented folks tends to raise wages, and deporting undocumented immigrants would be very expensive and hurt our economy and wages (and cause higher unemployment).

There are studies on this:

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2010/01/raising_the_floor.html

Sorry if that doesn't fit with your agenda.

LarryPatrickMaloney says

There are plenty of people who will be granted this special visa. This is just yet another govt. distortion of the RE market.

Agree that this is a distortion of the real estate market (although this would be a very small distortion compared to the big distortions we already have), but disagree that there will be many people who are granted this visa. The anecdotes people tell are not really that compelling. It's not easy to put together 500K in the third world, and the people that have it aren't going to be in large numbers for reasons I already stated.

Corntrollio, are you saying that corportations like microsoft, Yahoo and Google, who lobby for vast increases of h1b visas and increased immigration are doing so because they want to increase the wages that they pay?!
don't be an idiot! of course they want more h1b visas, because the immigrant labor undercuts American labor.

More supply of labor equals less labor expense for corporations and business. It is simply supply and demand.

Speaking of agendas, American progress.org is just another liberal open borders group that wants to drown out Americans in a sea of third world immigration, to further their socialist agenda.

Corntrollio, let me see if I get your point right... the fruit picking, construction, meat processing, hotel, and restaurant industries want more immigrant labor because you and American progress.org say it increases wages in those fields.

Corntrollio, you're an idiot and a traitor if you believe that. It is obvious to all, that the employers in those industries want more immigration, legal and illegal to lower their labor expenses, pure and simple.
Corntrollio, in the spirit of occupy wall St. why don't you start thinking about what is good for Americans and American labor for a change!

Corntrollio for your information, immigrants that come here without proper visas are not "undocumented", they are illegal. And they are taking jobs away from the 20 million Americans that are unemployed!

corntrollio says

You are wrong on this. Letting in documented folks tends to raise wages, and deporting undocumented immigrants would be very expensive and hurt our economy and wages (and cause higher unemployment).

There are studies on this:

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2010/01/raising_the_floor.html

Sorry if that doesn't fit with your agenda.

Ok I read the article and the whole report. What a crock. It says that in 86 when all the illegals were made legal that within a year they made more money than when they were illegal. Duh, of course they did. The whole point of illegals is to pay them next to nothing. So once this set was legal the report doesn't bother to talk about how to prevent the next group of illegals moving in that will be taking the peanut wages. That's exactly what happened after 86, yet the report doesn't talk about it at all. For christ sakes, 1986 is practically prehistoric.

bob2356 says

The whole point of illegals is to pay them next to nothing

That's pretty much it. We've been addicted to cheap labor for over 500 years now.

If you wanted things done you'd have a large family to run the farm. If you had money you would get a slave. Once that was abolished you had child labor that lasted until the 1930's (for the most part). I'd agree with feminists that most household labor was performed by women. Automation of washing/drying clothes and dishes, ovens, microwaves, electricity, lighting, running water all dramatically cut down on labor needed for homes...

Leaving illegal aliens being the last source of cheap labor. When Ceasar Chavez organized farm workers in the 1970's it simply pushed agricultural companies to update their economy cause it to become much more efficient..which caused the backlash of illegals going further north and into plenty of other fields. Instead of just farming it is now taking care of horses, nannies, maids, yard work, tilework, construction, roofing etc.

If we legalized illegals then they would have to be paid minimum wage and all the protections kick in. If you read the book Reefer Madness it illustrates that some work is nearly impossible to be performed with such conditions. It looked at the strawberry industry in southern CA. Highly labor intensive and even just the slightest bit of too much rain ruins it all. In short it is not a guaranteed type of industry.

If they want to reward something how about a green card for those that get a ph.d ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PettvYLrLLM

What would it be saying that we want people to mow lawns more than scientists that might make new drugs to fight diseases?

Some other policies also need to be addressed within this. The war on drugs needs to end. The drug war in mexico has been ignored and tens of thousands are dead due to it. Violence creates exoduses of people. It is one argument to prevent people from coming in for economic reasons. But if we let an outright war fester on our borders it will be a much harder emotional argument to put them back.

To comment on what propitup stated..the term should be illegal aliens. "Illegal immigrants" is a bad term because immigration is a legal process. That would be like using the term "legal murderers" or "legal rapists" or "illegal midwives"

Gubmint failed on the $8,000 tax credit for Americans who were willing to buy homes that would lose value equal to ten times that credit. Did we run out of trusting Americans ? No wonder so many other Nations don't like Americans.

This proposal is already a hot discussion topic in China.

Regarding h1b, as a hiring manager I would rathe hire a citizen or green card holder. Less paperwork and legal fees. But if many of the applicants for a given job are h1b holders, what other choice do I have?

LarryPatrickMaloney says

I want to hear what Patrick has to say, this is instigated by Shumer, cmmon patrick, you gonna defend Shumer?

Larry that's the thing I'm not sure liberals are willing to do yet, look at their own failures and publicly criticizing their own politicians.

Conservatives were forced years ago to look at the cold reality and failures of Bush and other Rino and Neocon Republicans. It's those criticisms that spurred the Tea Party.
One of the straws that broke my back was was when Bush and Grahamnesty cuddled up with Ted Kennedy in 2006 to ram amnesty of illegal aliens down our throats, thank god that millions of us rose up to save our country and stopped them. Most conservatives agree that Bush broke the Republican party. It's the Tea party that decided to take it back.

It is obvious to me that the Liberals are extremely frustrated with Obama and the Pelosi, Reid and Barney Frank led congress and their coddling of the too big to fail, but I haven't seen the Occupy Wall St. crowd willing to point the finger of blame directly at Obama and their politicians... yet.

It's comming, but they're not there yet.

this bill will be dead on arrival. This is so unamerican that it's outrageous.

FortWayne says

this bill will be dead on arrival. This is so unamerican that it's outrageous

That is what I am thinking. I belong to several organizations like Numbers USA and others that lead the fight against illigal immigration and efforts to reduce legal immigration, and none of them are saying much about this bill. I think it is because this bill is going no where.

www.numbersusa.com

Interesting that the article doesn't mention Northern California at all, just Southern. What happened to all the "It's special here" cheerleaders who are convinced our insane home prices will stay high due to foreigners with suitcases full of cash?

Another study on where mainland Chinese and Hong Kong buyers were looking showed they preferred Vancouver.

Uh,oh! America is going to get screwed by the black money from overseas.

bob2356 says

That's exactly what happened after 86, yet the report doesn't talk about it at all. For christ sakes, 1986 is practically prehistoric.

LOL! you missed what was the American Renaissance in the 80s.. It was far better than you can imagine compared to today.

thomas.wong1986 says

bob2356 says

That's exactly what happened after 86, yet the report doesn't talk about it at all. For christ sakes, 1986 is practically prehistoric.

LOL! you missed what was the American Renaissance in the 80s.. It was far better than you can imagine compared to today.

I must have missed it somehow. Remind me again, I have forgotten.

propitup1 says

Corntrollio for your information, immigrants that come here without proper visas are not "undocumented", they are illegal. And they are taking jobs away from the 20 million Americans that are unemployed!

Yes, and you don't know anything about economics and reality. Read the study and tell me if you have any specific criticisms. Otherwise, spew your talking points trash elsewhere.

cab says

corntrollio says

Now the real estate industry wants visas attached to real estate contracts, to buy houses that Americans won't.

I didn't say that, that was propitup.

cab says

You may be right that it's not very compelling to outsiders, and that people aren't dreaming of coming here like the government assumes. But there's a very important point that almost no one is touching on here, and that's the fact that this is just once again the US government sticking it to its own citizens and letting us know that we're lower than last on their list of priorities.

Don't get me wrong -- I think it's an exceedingly crappy idea to pass the legislation the OP mentioned. I just think it won't have as much of an effect as people think. It's certainly stupid policy. Canada basically has the same policy already, I believe, and it has resulted in only a few thousand people a year coming to Canada on these sorts of visas (and their threshold is $400K instead of $500K, if I remember correctly).

bob2356 says

It says that in 86 when all the illegals were made legal that within a year they made more money than when they were illegal. Duh, of course they did. The whole point of illegals is to pay them next to nothing. So once this set was legal the report doesn't bother to talk about how to prevent the next group of illegals moving in that will be taking the peanut wages.

Let's not forget that it was Ronald Reagan who changed the laws in 1986. But what Bob is saying is why every politician who has proposed immigration reform has coupled it with making borders stronger. In addition, Obama has deported more folks every year than Bush, so enforcement has already improved.

Yet, state governments are still using this ideological BS to attempt their own immigration enforcement, which is hurting their economies. Just today, there was another report on NPR about how Alabama's new regulation has resulted in undocumented immigrants leaving the state, and farmers are now having trouble harvesting crops and sowing the next crops. Without migrant farm workers, Alabama's agricultural economy is being destroyed, and with it the suppliers of seed, fertilizer, and farm machinery.

Here's an article from a couple weeks ago:
http://www.npr.org/2011/10/08/141183030/can-the-u-s-economy-really-function-without-undocumented-workers

Here's the update from today's Morning Edition:
http://www.npr.org/2011/10/24/141638999/labor-worries-rise-as-planting-season-nears-in-ala

Peturis says he's tried to hire through the state unemployment office before, but didn't have much success.

"Two of them left in 30 minutes; didn't even tell us they [were] going to leave," Peturis says. "One worked an hour and says it was too hard on his back."

The Impending Planting Season

In Baldwin County on the Gulf Coast, strawberry planting season is just a few weeks away. Farmers are wondering if they'll have the crews to get the plants in the ground.

"We need help doing it and we need help that's going to come back every day," says Mark Krupinski, whose family farms about 900 acres in Foley, Alabama. He says the work is hard, and when local people ask him about a job, they want to drive tractors, not labor in the fields.

"That isn't the kind of job most of us want to do," he says. "I don't blame them for not wanting to do [it], but somebody's got to do it if we're going to keep eating for the price that we are eating at."

You heard it -- Americans just want to drive around in tractors, but undocumented migrant farm workers are the ones who are willing to do the real work.

corntrollio says

Yes, and you don't know anything about economics and reality. Read the study and tell me if you have any specific criticisms. Otherwise, spew your talking points trash elsewhere.

Controllio actually I do know something about economics and reality. Your "study" is an open borders piece of garbage, and the reality of living in California has taught me how to to spot this trash a mile away.

propitup1 says

Your "study" is an open borders piece of garbage, and the reality of living in California has taught me how to to spot this trash a mile away.

No evidence, no argument. Yeah, that's what I thought. You have nothing.

Corn you are only hearing what you want, not what I am saying. What I am telling you is that your "study" is a crock of you know what and not worth the paper it's written on.

If you want some real studies on the effect of immigration on Americans you can read these:

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/learn/illegal-immigration/illegal-immigration-1-billion-cost-los-angeles-taxpayers-1-year.html

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/learn/ethics-population-and-immigration/immigrants-and-welfare-use.html

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/learn/illegal-immigration/the-fiscal-cost-low-skilled-immigrants.html

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/learn/illegal-immigration/the-fiscal-cost-low-skilled-immigrants.html

Corn, no matter how you slice it, massive immigration is a disaster for Americans, and Americans want to stop it.

Borders are political constructs. Immigration is just migration of species over an arbitrarily political construct. If you don't like it, become part of the solution: make more citizens, have more kids.

propitup1 says

Corn you are only hearing what you want, not what I am saying.

Bullshit, you didn't say anything substantive the first go-around.

As for your links, the welfare stuff is absolute nonsense. We have discussed this on Patrick.net before. Undocumented immigrants do not get welfare. Anyone suggesting that they do is lying to you, outright, including in that report about Los Angeles County. It is possible that undocumented immigrants' US citizen children might get welfare, but I don't see a problem with that -- the kids didn't choose to be here, and it's better to have well-cared and educated children than not in the grand scheme of our economy.

I noticed that the Los Angeles County calculation is not backed up by any evidence of how they got $200M for public safety and $400M for healthcare (as part of LA County's more than $23B budget). Also, nice job completely ignoring the fact that in some states native folks receive more cash assistance than immigrants.

The cost vs. benefit of low-skilled immigrants is also not compared to low-skilled natives. I wonder why? I bet you'd find that low-skilled natives aren't pulling their weight either (including lots of teabaggers who don't pay federal income tax -- 47% by most estimates). It also ignores the fact that many immigrants that would be here under immigration reform would be high-skilled immigrants -- the anti-immigrant people seem to ignore that, and high-skilled immigrants raise wages.

(if you're going to make a ridiculous argument about so-called "anchor babies", don't bother. That is an ideological term that does not exist in reality. It is extremely difficult for an undocumented immigrant to stay here just because they have a US citizen child. Only uninformed people who don't know anything about immigration law refer to "anchor babies.")

corntrollio maybe you just don't know what propitup is talking about.

There are many ways illegals can get benefits, and anchor babies are not so uncommon.

FortWayne says

There are many ways illegals can get benefits, and anchor babies are not so uncommon.

Yes, and you're wrong on that. Again, if you think the concept of an "anchor baby" is common, you know absolutely nothing about immigration law.

What ways are there for undocumented immigrants to get benefits? You should be able to name them. Every study that anyone has mentioned on Patnet shows that US citizen (or LPR) children of undocumented immigrants might get some welfare, and that it's extremely rare that this welfare is composed of cash.

Repeating the opposite of what I say without facts or an argument isn't really very effective.

Corn,
swearing and calling me foul names just shows that you have a tired mind, and with a tired mind it's no wonder you don't understand anything that I have written.

Speaking of welfare benefits for illegal aliens, I'm getting my petitions ready for the signature drive that I am going to do this Sunday to repeal the California Dream act. Tax payer paid financial aid for Illegal Alien college students?!!!

Not if I have any say about it!

propitup1 says

it's no wonder you don't understand anything that I have written.

Maybe because everything you write is false and propagandist, and provably wrong. If you can provide facts and evidence that show differently, please do. Otherwise, pipe down, son. And have fun screwing up the country by trying to encourage people to be less educated -- I'm sure that'll work out well.