patrick.net

Bap33 says

The liberation of europe saw many Jew murdering Nazi killed by Allied forces.

OK then, how about the young Germans drafted into the war that didn't really want to be there and certainly didn't kill any Jews. Was that murder? or killing.

Or the guy who raped your wife and got off on a technicality in court. When you kill him is it murder? or killing?

"Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter."

It is really a sport more than anything else.

tatupu, answer your own questions first, please, and then I'll give my opinion.

Bap33 says

Shooting an intruder as he gets off your dead wife's body is a justified killing.

So, maybe the intruder walked into your house by mistake because his was repossessed and he was looking for a place to rest his weary head.

Meanwhile, your wife gets out of bed and, it being cold outside, puts on new socks. They slip on the floor that your teenage daughter cleaned with too much floor cleaner (you know kids, she was probably on restriction and figured if she cleaned it would go a long way toward getting her phone back and resuming her pattern of going to the mall and texting the friends who are also in the food court at another table...)

So the wife slips, hits her head on the corner of the counter that is too sharp and she's asked you to fix multiple times. She's laying there, bleeding, when the intruder walks in the front door that was left unlocked when your teenage daughter snuck out and took the car (got caught because she put too much gas back in)... and he falls over her lifeless body.

Covered in blood, he's discovered laying on her dead, lifeless body that possesses no signs of life and couldn't possibly be revived (I know, redundant, repetetive and says the same thing over & over...).

Then it's discovered that he's a Nazi soldier who was forced to enlist... and he's entered a time vortex with a little door that only an unborn baby can sucked thru with a vacuum... and you're stuck with a nazi soldier who merely tried to get warm (mission accomplished, btw)

"Would that then be a sin then, Father?"

Bap33 says

Here is a simple example:
Killing a baby in the womb by inserting a vacuum into the mom and sucking out the baby is murber of the baby.

No.

Shooting an intruder as he gets off your dead wife's body is a justified killing.

No.

Shooting a cow to eat it is killing.

Yes.

Shooting a deer to stuff it is murder.

No.

Let me explain:

As we know the bible has been transliterated --the 10 commandments at least-- from the Hebrew. These days it is quite easy to check on the Hebrew of the 10 commandments and see what was original intended.

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Scripture/Torah/Ten_Cmds/Sixth_Cmd/sixth_cmd.html

The Jewish sages note that the word retsach applies only to illegal killing (e.g., premeditated murder or manslaughter) - and is never used in the administration of justice or for killing in war. Hence the KJV translation as "thou shalt not kill" is too broad.

So, the translation of the 10 commandments should have said "thou shalt not illegally kill".

If the intruder was to throw up their hands and give up, it would be illegal to kill them, and you could possibly spend time in jail and you would be in violation of the 10 commandments.

It is legal to abort a fetus, stuff a deer, and eat a cow so all are OK by the 10 commandments.

Buy, once can cherry-pick anyway they wish.

lol ... just because some curupt deviant lawyer was able to get some curupt deviant judge to change the law, does not change what the Word of God commanded. Jesus did not remove the law, he completed it.

Intruders can be and are shot.

elective abortion is murder.

Still waiting for Tatupu.

@ellie, lmao.

Bap33 says

lol ... just because some curupt deviant lawyer was able to get some curupt deviant judge to change the law, does not change what the Word of God commanded.

Umm... no, but god's law says that only illegal "kills" are prohibited, who are you to question god's law? Do you think that when god said the rule only applied to illegal kills, he would not foresee our current legal system?

Bap33 says

Intruders can be and are shot.

No, it is not always legal to shoot anyone you feel is "intruding" in your home. At least when I got my California CCW that is what they taught, perhaps in other states it is perfectly legal to shoot anyone you don't want in your home. *this is not legal advice, please consult with your lawyer before shooting people in your house*

Bap33 says

elective abortion is murder.

Not according to the law, and according to god's law only illegal killing is prohibited.

Bap--

Sorry, I meant to reply earlier.

I tend to agree with other posters that the law has to be the deciding factor. Otherwise, it's a very slippery slope.

Bap33 says

elective abortion is murder

Even if it's early and just a few cells ?

Why is it that I don't know that it's a human life yet and you do ? The bible doesn't clearly address when a human becomes a human or when it gets it's soul.

If a healthy young woman decided she wanted to have a child, and her husband said no, and got a vasectomy, why wouldn't that be murder ? He consciously chose not to cause a potential life to come in to existence.

What if your political philosophy wins out, and the plutocracy gains far more ground, enslaving the population to where life is TERRIBLE a couple hundred years from now for most people. Terribly polluted. Terrible slave labor conditions. HIgh levels of misery, despair, pain and suffering. IF a woman then decided to abort her zygote out of a feeling of compassion that she didn't want to bring a child into such a terrible life, would it be murder even then ?

(ps: there are people with conditions - including genetic, family history, drug involvement. or associations with bad people and so on, that could feel this way now)

tatupu, please answer your questions.

Leo, please say what murder is. And Leo, you do realize that all the laws you want to use to define what the 10Cs say came after the 10Cs, right? Wrong order aint it?

marcus, please allow me to wait for these two others to respond, and then I will respond to your points, as they all will tie together. Thanks.

Bap33 says

tatupu, please answer your questions

I did. Did you miss is?

tatupu70 says

I tend to agree with other posters that the law has to be the deciding factor. Otherwise, it's a very slippery slope.

No, you did not answer these questions. Please do.

tatupu70 says

Bap33 says

The liberation of europe saw many Jew murdering Nazi killed by Allied forces.

OK then, how about the young Germans drafted into the war that didn't really want to be there and certainly didn't kill any Jews. Was that murder? or killing.

Or the guy who raped your wife and got off on a technicality in court. When you kill him is it murder? or killing?

You asked two questions that you wanted to have answered "Murder" or "killing". I will respond after you answer. What is your answer to your questions. Please.

I really did. Unless you don't know the law...

1. In war, killing enemy soldiers is not against the law, so I wouldn't call it murder

2. Killing someone who raped your wife is murder.

I think ya'll are totally missing the point:

what does one wear to the end of the world? If you believe in heaven & hell, you should dress for where you're going. I think that dressing in layers would be the best if you're planning on hell, because you can take off what you need to without being buck naked.

heaven - not so easy to plan for. If you buy into the heaven being up in the clouds, you should dress in lightweight clothing so that you don't fall through while staying warm 'cause it's cold at higher elevations. Might I recommend this site, which I found after an exhaustive .40 second google search:
http://coldweatherclothing.info/ECWCS/LWCWUS.html

This begs another question - what to take with you and how do you take it? Do you tie it to you (heavy furniture could weigh you down), and what about electronics? Is there internet access in heaven? We know that there's internet access in hell, because there's a bunch of porn addicts whose spouses have told them to "go to hell" there already.

So many questions, one day to get them answered. 'Cause this is the big one, and Elizabeth - I'm coming to see you!

elliemae says

what does one wear to the end of the world?

SKIN of course! If you need clothing they will issue you something appropriate to your non-corporeal form.

When the world is ending I'll be stripping down in preparation.

Vicente says

elliemae says

what does one wear to the end of the world?

SKIN of course! If you need clothing they will issue you something appropriate to your non-corporeal form.

When the world is ending I'll be stripping down in preparation.

If God wanted me to walk around naked, he'd have made my skin fit better...

tatupu70 says

I really did. Unless you don't know the law...

lmao .. oh, really? Can you read your own writing? You asked these questions of me:
tatupu70 says

Bap33 says

The liberation of europe saw many Jew murdering Nazi killed by Allied forces.

OK then, how about the young Germans drafted into the war that didn't really want to be there and certainly didn't kill any Jews. Was that murder? or killing.

Or the guy who raped your wife and got off on a technicality in court. When you kill him is it murder? or killing?

Then you responded with this:

1. In war, killing enemy soldiers is not against the law, so I wouldn't call it murder

2. Killing someone who raped your wife is murder.

You will not answer a question you posed to me, and then you even suggest I should know the answer if I know the law. The punishment for rape is death in most lands and in God's law. So, maybe #2 needs to be addressed? Also, killing an enemy out of hate or anger is not ok, just doing so out of duty or to protect others is ok, it is not supposed to be personal, in God's law. So, would you rather re-answer or change what laws you are choosing to follow?

marcus,
yes, having an elective abotortion to murder a baby is never the right choice. Using birth control is a better choice. Not doing the things that make babies is a good choice.
As for a man getting fixed; There are issues with the mistreatment on ones body, but there is no life in the seed itself, beyond the life of an individual cell. The man's seed can not reproduce life. Life begins to reproduce when seed meets egg and creats a complete new and seperate life form that reproduces. From that very instant the ONLY thing that can result is a human, if the cells are healthy and all things go as they are designed. So, we are humans from the instant an X becomes and Xx or Xy. now, you question about the delivery of the soul to the body ... in my most humble opinion, that comes right away, but that'a jusr an opinion.

Bap33 says

The punishment for rape is death in most lands and in God's law.

Ah, I see so you are speaking of god's law and not mans law. Well you better sharpen your axe because according to god's law you are required to do a lot of killing:
You find anyone ignoring the judgment of your local priest (or whomever you find to be the authority speaking for the LORD -- maybe you perhaps)? Off with their head! (Deuteronomy 17:12)

Any wiccans in your town? You best get to the killing. (Exodus 22:18, Leviticus 20:27)

You might need more than just your axe to take out all of those homosexuals during gay pride week. (Leviticus 20:13)

Your kids every hit you, or you know of any kids that hit their parents. Well god wants you to hit them back in the neck with your axe. (Exodus 21:15) Or perhaps the kids just cursed their parents -- same judgment! (Leviticus 20:9)

Know anyone that has committed adultery? Well, if so now is your chance to do right by god! They both get the AXE! (Leviticus 20:10)

Do you know the daughter of a priest, and has that daughter had sex? Woah… sorry no axe this time big guy! God wants you to burn her alive instead. No mention of punishment for the guy though, I guess god gives him a pass on this one. (Leviticus 21:9)

You know those muslims, jew, hindus, etc. that you tried to convert? Did they refuse to convert? Well… now god wants’ you to give them the axe. That’s right you need to kill all of those that don’t believe in your god: men, women and/or children. (2 Chronicles 15:13) (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)

You are making the rounds and checking that all women are vergins on their wedding night, right? Well, you had better kill them if they fail the test! (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)

You ever overhear someone blaspheme god? It is quite common, as the bodies in your wake should be. (Leviticus 24:16)

You think that TV preacher might not be on the up and up? Well, you best follow god's law and hunt him down and kill him. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5)

Your neighbor mowing the lawn on the Sabbath? Good thing the mower is loud, because he will not be able to hear you approach from behind, and drop you axe on his/her head. (Exodus 31:15)

According to god’s law it is not a option for you to kill these people, it is a required commandment by god that you perform these killings.

Hmmm... I did not see rape on that list, I may have missed something, but you could kill him under the adultery law because your wife is married, but then again you would need to kill her as well. I suppose he would have been following god's law if he killed your adulterous wife first.

However, if it was your unmarried daughter that was raped it is not within god's law for you to kill him, but you must allow him to marry your daughter. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

Bap33 says

...having an elective [abortion] to murder a baby is never the right choice.

I am curious as to where in god's law (i.e. the bible) is abortion prohibited? I can find instances where god directly kills children, and orders his followers to kill children, but no reference where the killing of children is prohibited.

Oh, and by the way, I implore you don't follow god's law and kill all the people that god commands you to kill. Please cheery pick around those laws, and only select the laws where you are not compelled to kill.

Bap33 says

Life begins to reproduce when seed meets egg and creats a complete new and seperate life form that reproduces. From that very instant the ONLY thing that can result is a human, if the cells are healthy and all things go as they are designed. So, we are humans from the instant an X becomes and Xx or Xy. now, you question about the delivery of the soul to the body ... in my most humble opinion, that comes right away, but that'a jusr an opinion.

OK, perhaps you would answer a question that I never seem to get an answer to.

If you were in a burning hospital, and on your right was a crying baby, and at you left was a tray of 100 test tubes with fertilized eggs waiting for implant into there human mothers. You only have time to grab one. What do you do? Save the one human, or the 100 humans?

Bap33 says

You will not answer a question you posed to me, and then you even suggest I should know the answer if I know the law. The punishment for rape is death in most lands and in God's law. So, maybe #2 needs to be addressed? Also, killing an enemy out of hate or anger is not ok, just doing so out of duty or to protect others is ok, it is not supposed to be personal, in God's law. So, would you rather re-answer or change what laws you are choosing to follow?

I did answer it. Several times. I thought it was understood that since we all live in the US, I would be refering to US law.

I'm not sure which countries penalize rape with death, but it definitely isn't most civilivized countries.

And no-I don't need to reconsider. I'm pretty happy with US laws. Sometimes I need to do work on Sundays. (I just saw Leo's list. I won't list anything more--he's got it covered)

Leo, I'd save the living baby first.
I never, ever, ever, suggested that it was possible to follow God's Law, as I firmly believe MAN can't do it. Never has, and never will. But, you keep talking about "legal killing" in the context of the 10Cs, and now you see how that makes no sense .. right?

tatupu, America has had many rapists put to death. You knew that. And the entire Arab nation has rape carry a MANDATORY death sentance. Is the Arab nation uncivilized?

If the Law of the Land is no gays married and no smoing dope, where is all of the support for changes to those laws coming from?

Decisions Decisions........ Abortion or Starvation ?

leoj707 says

If you were in a burning hospital, and on your right was a crying baby, and at you left was a tray of 100 test tubes with fertilized eggs waiting for implant into there human mothers. You only have time to grab one. What do you do? Save the one human, or the 100 humans?

One might say that all of them are human babies... Easy answer... what you do is grab the test tubes and tape them around the baby with medical tape - and wrap the live baby's head in a turban. Then throw the live baby covered in test tubes out the window and it'll be caught by the fire department that is waiting outside. If there's any doubt, yell that it's a baby terrorist operative and the test tubes are explosives (you're not lying, they came from an explosion of sperm at one point)...

You'll have saved the life of 101 babies but ruined the lfie of one of them (they'll sentence the live baby to life in prison, probably federal prison where it will learn to play golf and gain a college edumacation).

Of course, if you stuff ten of the test tubes in your shorts and save yourself as well, you can implant them in your wife and become famous as the Decamom... (if you implant all 100 in her, she'd be the hectomom). You'd be famous, with a reality show and your wife would have multiple offers to "act" in porn. You'd be set for life, and with any luck some of the children would be intelligent and self-sufficient some day.

The only way that you could top that would be to implant them in Lindsay Lohan or Kim Kardashian.

Please, Leo, ask more difficult questions.

Bap33 says

tatupu, America has had many rapists put to death. You knew that. And the entire Arab nation has rape carry a MANDATORY death sentance. Is the Arab nation uncivilized?

I stand corrected. I was not aware that some states still had the death penalty for rapists. It almost never happens, but you are right that it has happened.

In any event, my scenario was someone taking the law into their own hands and ending the life of the rapist that was found not guilty. That is most certainly against the law in all states.

Finally, it's a bit ironic that you are using Islamic law to back your point. According to many Arab states, terrorism is killing, not murder.

tatupu70 says

According to many Arab states, terrorism is killing, not murder.

Yes, and according to them they are following god's law.

tatupu70 says

In any event, my scenario was someone taking the law into their own hands and ending the life of the rapist that was found not guilty. That is most certainly against the law in all states.

Yes, and even if found guilty I it is still against the law for a citizen to take it upon themselves to kill the rapist.

Bap33 says

Leo, I'd save the living baby first.

But, aren't they all living humans? Some are just pre-baby, humans, just as a child is a post-baby human. You would still sacrifice 100 human lives to save 1? Well, I appreciate your honesty.

Bap33 says

I never, ever, ever, suggested that it was possible to follow God's Law, as I firmly believe MAN can't do it.

Why not? I don't think there are any laws that are impossible to follow. I don't see anywhere where god's law commands things like, "every forth and twentieth day thou must flapist thou's arms and floatith in the sky above the tops of thine house." That would be an impossible law to follow.

It is just that some of god's law are inconvenient and/or abhorrent so "believers" choose to cherry pick around them. Also, some of god's laws come into conflict with man's law, and once again "believers" choose man's law over god's.

What of god's law do you find impossible to follow?

Bap33 says

But, you keep talking about "legal killing" in the context of the 10Cs, and now you see how that makes no sense .. right?

You are correct in that it does not make any sense with regard to man's law, but it makes perfect sense in the context of god's law. What other law would god have been referring to when he said, "thou shall not illegally kill"?

Bap33 says

If the Law of the Land is no gays married and no smoing dope, where is all of the support for changes to those laws coming from?

Well, the law of the land can and does change over time, depending on what the current society values. Currently we are in transition where most people value the right for gays to marry, and the right to smoke pot, so the laws are slowly changing.

This is very similar to the way believers cherry pick around god's law depending on what their internal values are. Any set of values can be justified in the bible as long as you are wiling to ignore parts of the bible.

elliemae says

Please, Leo, ask more difficult questions.

Ah, ha ha, yeah that is a lot closer to the answers I usually will get to that question. No direct answer, but a lot of attempts to change the situation so that the question can be avoided.

Leo,
If you break one itty bitty portion of any one of God's laws you are guilty. You are just as guilty as if you had broke them all. The is no "degrees" of sin. All of the laws are impossible for any one man, other than Jesus, to follow.

The Commandment given to Moses "do not commit murder". Your view that it poits to some "legal" killing is a twist is the timing of things. There was no such thing as laws concerning any killing when the Commandment was given. The 10Cs introduced the concept of law to man, law did not bring about the 10Cs.

You are correct, the laws of man change. But, you also said you are to follow the laws of the land. ANd then you said men change their laws over time. This means you can be guilty today and not guilty tomorrow, or vise versa. Bad idea, these changing laws.
OTOH, God's law does not change. That is one reason I think the liberal minds do not like God or his laws. It's that whole, "absolute right and absolute wrong" thing that they do not like.

Bap33 says

That is one reason I think the liberal minds do not like God or his laws.

Such a generalization, and you're dead wrong. Liberals and Conservatives are descriptions of political beliefs, certainly not a guage of whether they like God or his laws. That's demeaning.

Religion is subjective and completely separate from science, politics, and reality. It's a belief system. To make such generalizations negates the possibility that some people believe simply because they believe.

You are having an interwebs chat with a person, not an entire group of liberals. If you believe that you are expected to be the voice that instructs and attempts to educate your perception of an entire group's failed belief system, you will find that you failed miserably.

Meanwhile, the world didn't end and I'm not sure when to plan for the next ending...

Bap33 says

The is no "degrees" of sin

Really ?

This tells us a lot about you. I guess if you murdered a few people in your past, you need to feel no more guilty about it than I should feel about the times I told my parents lies about what I had been doing that night
(back in the 70s), or the time I shoplifted a hockey puck (at about age 11). If there is a God who judges us, and judges these sins as equally bad, there are two conclusions one could reach that are not what you would want people to conclude.

One conclusion would be total lack of respect or belief in a God who would have such a messed up AND WRONG system.

Even worse, a truly evil person (evil to the core ??) could feel justified committing murder and terrible sins, knowing that he was no worse than the average person who tells occasional white lies, or feels lust towrards a hot woman etc..

Either way, you've expressed a new low (intellectually) with this "there are no degrees of sin."

I know you know better. Why build an argument

Bap33 says

That is one reason I think the liberal minds do not like God or his laws. It's that whole, "absolute right and absolute wrong" thing that they do not like.

Why build an argument around such BS ?

News flash: THere may be a lot of agnostics and atheists around here, who are from your ultra right wing perspective, liberal, and you think that correlates highly with being non religious. There may be some correlation there, but being non religious probably correlated more highly with being highly educated (not cause and effect), than it does political party.

I am probably on the believer side of agnostic, but I have a not so well defined spirituality, based on what the brain God gave me allows me to perceive.

I guess I'm fortunate not to have the authoritarian tendencies you do.
I don't need to have answers for nearly as many things you do. Therefore I am not as wrong as you are.

IF I were to be judged, let it be for the harm I do in the world or the good. Can harm be quantified ? Yes.

Are there sins that don't harm others ? Yes. Are there sins that harm no one ? I don't know.

For the record there are 10s of millions of religious church going liberals in this country. (Maybe not in certain regions).

I guess part of your "logic" for being a right winger is that you feel you have God on your side. You kind of are our resident representative as to why religion is bad. But it doesn't affect me. I know a few extremely together people who are religious.

ellie,
I was not using the term in a political form ... was I? I ment to use liberal to indicate the mind set that refuses the exisitance of absolutes, and that sees more gray and less black and white ... the ones that wonder what the word "is" means, or what "murder" really means, or that will not have a convicted murdering rapist put to death, but will support a healthy baby being ripped to pieces in the womb. That was the way I meant to be using "liberal mind", not in any political sense. And from the paticular form of the word I was suggesting that God's never-changing laws were not very popular with liberals, while they do put up with the laws of man that they personally feel are worth following. If my use of liberal is not correct, please be willing to give me a more correct adjective to describe such folks, as my vocabulary is limited -- and you know this! lol. Thanks.

p.s., I'm writing this from my pod on Planet X Niburu

marcus says

Either way, you've expressed a new low (intellectually) with this "there are no degrees of sin."

and with this you show a complete lack of knowing. There is no degree of sin where God's Law (the topic here) is concerned - period. Do a google search or something and get back to me about how right I am. Thanks.

You spent a fair amount of effort distinguishing between killing and murder, which is a very good example of identifying "degrees of sin."

But because of your authoritarian personality, you need to frame it as absolute good (or okay) killing .......versus absolute bad, murder. The truth is they are both bad, it's just that one is worse than the other.

This is degrees of sin.

God's law may not be trying put weights or scores on sin to identify the magnitude of sins. But fortunately everyone was given enough sense to know that some sins are far worse than others.

Bap33 says

ellie,
I was not using the term in a political form ... was I? I ment to use liberal to indicate the mind set that refuses the exisitance of absolutes, and that sees more gray and less black and white ...

Dictionary.com says

1.favorable to progress or reform, as in political or religious affairs.
2.(often initial capital letter) noting or pertaining to a political party advocating measures of progressive political reform.
3.of, pertaining to, based on, or advocating liberalism. 4.favorable to or in accord with concepts of maximum individual freedom possible, especially as guaranteed by law and secured by governmental protection of civil liberties.
5.favoring or permitting freedom of action, especially with respect to matters of personal belief or expression: a liberal policy toward dissident artists and writers.

You go on to say that, to you, "liberal" means that God's never changing laws aren't popular with the liberals... But an example is mormonism, that changes the book of mormon with the times. It's been documented that the BoM removed the part about men living on the moon after we found no men on the moon, changed the doctrines of allowing men to have plural marriages in order to be accepted as a state, allowing black people to hold the priesthood... yet the mormon church is notoriously conservative in its views and political leanings.

Bap, you appear to assign the word "liberal" with your own meaning to people who believe differently than you do.

You can package it however you want, slap it silly and call it susan - but it doesn't make it anything more than your story.

People are unpredictable, and assigning labels in order to understand them is a tedious, never-ending task.

Insofar as abortion, it is a huge sin in the mormon church (I use mormon because I live in the land of mormons). When I was younger, I drove more than one young mormon woman to get an abortion because her family, church and peers wouldn't help. Around these parts, you're an outcast slut if you have an unwed pregnancy, yet there's no support for birth control. This very conservative area has a high incidence of prescription drug use, meth and alcoholism.

But they're conservative, damnit - and by definition I guess that makes them good?

Liberal is a political label. Why not say, "People whose belief systems are different than mine?" It would be more truthful.

marcus says

You spent a fair amount of effort distinguishing between killing and murder, which is a very good example of identifying "degrees of sin."

But because of your authoritarian personality, you need to frame it as absolute good (or okay) killing .......versus absolute bad, murder. The truth is they are both bad, it's just that one is worse than the other.

This is degrees of sin.

God's law may not be trying put weights or scores on sin to identify the magnitude of sins. But fortunately everyone was given enough sense to know that some sins are far worse than others.

no, they are not both sin and you are wrong, if we are both using the same Bible. Death itself is only part of man's existance due to sin, but the act of killing someone is not a sin if is just, while murder is always a sin. So is having anger towards another person. Both are sin, both are enough to keep you outof heaven without grace. But, you are 100% wrong to say killing another is a sin based on anthing I have read in the hebrew Bible.

ellie,
I have said Joe Smith was wrong. Those that follow the BoM are being lied to. And that religion is a GREAT example of a "liberal" religion, even if all of the folks that attend have conservative political views.
I do not lump folks into the lib catagory for not having the same view as mine, but the fact that most folks that disagree with me tend to be liberal may play a part, right?
The rest of your post supports my point that no man can follow God's Law. Not even super-religous zelot types.

Bap33 says

I have said Joe Smith was wrong. Those that follow the BoM are being lied to. And that religion is a GREAT example of a "liberal" religion, even if all of the folks that attend have conservative political views.

You do realize that there are a bunch of people who disagree with you on this point, right? So far as "God's Law," I'll gladly follow this law as soon as he appears in front of me and explains to me what his law is.

Many people are out there who want others to follow their interpretation of "God's law." What a load of crap - everyone has an agenda. All ya gotta do is write a book and get other people to buy into it and you've got a religion. This isn't just an explanation of mormonism or scientology - it's also easily applied to christianity and basically all other religions.

Be a good person and it's all good. Preaching to others about what is sin and what is murder merely leads to arguments no one will win.

elliemae says

I'll gladly follow this law as soon as he appears in front of me and explains to me what his law is.

elliemae says

Be a good person and it's all good.

Here's a genius, explaining more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

Joe Pesci is God:)

thanks, i needed that!