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Why is there no shortage of engineers?


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2011 Nov 3, 10:15am   32,637 views  59 comments

by corntrollio   ➕follow (0)   💰tip   ignore  

I've noticed that a lot of Patnetters say that there is no shortage of engineers in the US. I never really hear this anywhere else except from people on these forums. Why here? I've also found lots of Patnetters to be very anti-education, which is also strange and seems like a minority position except among some libertarian types. Not picking on one person, but here's a typical quote on the engineer thing:

HousingWatcher says

Which is complete and utter nonsense. There is no shortage of engineers.

This was a response to thomas.wong (http://patrick.net/?p=1127889#comment-775304):

When it came to his turn, Jobs talked about the United States' lack of software engineers, and said that any foreign student who got an engineering degree at a U.S. university should automatically be offered a green card. Obama responded that such a change had to be part of the proposed Dream Act - allowing undocumented immigrants who graduated from a U.S. high school to become legal residents - which Republicans had blocked.

...

That resonates, as does Jobs' plea at the dinner for a crash program to train U.S. engineers. "You can't find that many in America to hire," Jobs said. "If you could educate these engineers, we could move more manufacturing plants here."

Hard to live in the Bay Area without dealing with lots of tech people who always say that opposite -- that it's hard to find quality engineers. What I gather is that it's really easy to find mediocre and bad engineers, but it's hard to find good ones. This makes sense since not everyone can be a great engineer.

I'm sympathetic to the argument that there are engineers over the age of 40 who have trouble getting jobs, but aren't a lot of them washouts? I surely know quality engineers who are boomers. I certainly know CS-types who are over 40 and have great jobs. Do I just know a sample of really good people?

By the way, reason I thought to ask is that I saw this today -- asserts the opposite of said Patnetters and gives stats on the amount of science, engineering, and math grads, but doesn't really say much other than that:

http://news.investors.com/Article/588637/201110191813/College-Has-Been-Oversold.htm

Over the past 25 years the total number of students in college has increased by about 50%. But the number of students graduating with degrees in science, technology, engineering and math (the so-called STEM fields) has been flat.

Moreover, many of today's STEM graduates are foreign-born and taking their knowledge and skills back to their native countries. Consider computer technology. In 2009 the U.S. graduated 37,994 students with bachelor's degrees in computer and information science. This is not bad, but we graduated more students with computer science degrees 25 years ago.

The story is the same in other technology fields. The United States graduated 5,036 chemical engineers in 2009, no more than we did 25 years ago. In mathematics and statistics there were 15,496 graduates in 2009, slightly more than the 15,009 graduates of 1985.

Few fields have changed as much in recent years as microbiology, but in 2009 we graduated just 2,480 students with bachelor's degrees in microbiology — about the same number as 25 years ago. Who will solve the problem of antibiotic resistance?

If students aren't studying science, technology, engineering and math, what are they studying? In 2009 the U.S. graduated 89,140 students in the visual and performing arts, more than in computer science, math and chemical engineering combined and more than double the number of visual and performing arts graduates in 1985.

As I've said before, nothing wrong with being an art history major if your goal in life is to be a museum curator, but it's not a great general purpose degree or anything for jobs in many other fields, even if it might enrich your mind.

#housing

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46   mdovell   2011 Nov 9, 4:49am  

New renter says

Great - now are any of these these positions active?

I've been in the job market enough to recognize that just because a position is advertised it may not be real or active. Companies go out on fishing expeditions all the time or have a position with an internal candidate already in mind but need to advertise the position for legal reasons. I've also seen job reqs pulled for lack of funding. Heck, the conspiracy minded might accuse employers of running impossible to fill ads to facilitate the shortage myth.

Certainly those are good points. I would say that red flags would be if the experience required cannot really exist. I remember when Windows XP came out and I saw an ad looking for 8 years experience with it when it was only out for three..

Sometimes jobs are posted internally..other times they aren't. I've seen plenty of jobs on indeed that I found out later weren't posted internally. Of course that frustrates the crap out of employees already there. My first job they actually took out a newspaper ad and didn't tell anyone ahead of time..boy were they pissed.

47   New Renter   2011 Nov 9, 9:59am  

zzyzzx says

Skip college and try stripping instead:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/25/strippers-in-williston-no_n_1030834.html

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As thousands of men move to Williston, North Dakota seeking high-paying jobs working for oil companies, area strippers have seen their salaries skyrocket, CNNMoney reports. Strippers claim that they can make $2,000 to $3,000 per night in tips -- more than in typical strip club hot spots like Las Vegas -- dancing for the oil rig workers, many of whom moved to the town without their families.

If the homeowner isn't insulted by your offer...you didn't bid low enough!!!

Tempting...So tempting.
I knew people who took that route. It takes a strange combination of an enormous ego and low self-esteem.

Still does one have to service the VIP lounge for those kind of tips?

48   New Renter   2011 Nov 9, 10:45am  

Nomograph says

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My issue isn't only whether the jobs are there but whether they pay enough to make up for 7-10 years of low wages and potential student loan debt? If the same job requires a BS and 10-15 years of experience or a Ph.D. with 5 years there is NO point to taking the Ph.D. route.

The key to getting people interested in science and engineering is to show them that the sacrifices they will make have a real chance of paying off and DON'T squander them on expensive boondoggles (I'm looking at YOU space shuttle and international space station!)

49   elliemae   2011 Nov 9, 11:16am  

New renter says

Tempting...So tempting.

I'd be a stripper - if my skin fit better.

50   nope   2011 Nov 9, 12:42pm  

I interviewed a guy today who had a double masters (CS & EE) and more than 8 years of industry experience.

He couldn't implement a trivial serialization problem -- the kind that any first-year CS student should be able to handle.

Anyone who claims there's no shortage is full of shit.

Please, if you know good software engineers in the bay area, NYC, seattle, or boston, send me a message. I could use the referral bonus.

Edit:

And, in case you're wondering, someone with that experience will make around $150-200k, plus bonus and equity. The benefits are pretty obscene, too.

51   New Renter   2011 Nov 9, 10:37pm  

Kevin says

I interviewed a guy today who had a double masters (CS & EE) and more than 8 years of industry experience.

He couldn't implement a trivial serialization problem -- the kind that any first-year CS student should be able to handle.

Anyone who claims there's no shortage is full of shit.

Please, if you know good software engineers in the bay area, NYC, seattle, or boston, send me a message. I could use the referral bonus.

Edit:

And, in case you're wondering, someone with that experience will make around $150-200k, plus bonus and equity. The benefits are pretty obscene, too.

Great, if you can send me a job description and some contact info I'll be happy to check around. I know quite a few software engineers who may fit your needs.

52   New Renter   2011 Nov 9, 10:39pm  

elliemae says

I'd be a stripper - if my skin fit better.

Not that I'm into this kind of thing but there are supposed to be clubs that cater to such things. If anything there's always amateur night....

53   zzyzzx   2011 Nov 9, 11:19pm  

Kevin says

And, in case you're wondering, someone with that experience will make around $150-200k, plus bonus and equity. The benefits are pretty obscene, too.

Last time I was looking for a job (almost 2 years ago) and in the DC - Baltimore area, the going rate was about half that, on a good day.

54   zzyzzx   2011 Nov 9, 11:19pm  

New renter says

Still does one have to service the VIP lounge for those kind of tips?

For $3000 per night, would you really care?

55   New Renter   2011 Nov 10, 5:33am  

zzyzzx says

New renter says

Still does one have to service the VIP lounge for those kind of tips?

For $3000 per night, would you really care?

If the homeowner isn't insulted by your offer...you didn't bid low enough!!!

Depends on whether herpes, hepatitis, AIDS, syphilis, chlamydia, gonorrhea and or crabs are part of the deal

56   nope   2011 Nov 10, 1:48pm  

New renter says

Kevin says

I interviewed a guy today who had a double masters (CS & EE) and more than 8 years of industry experience.

He couldn't implement a trivial serialization problem -- the kind that any first-year CS student should be able to handle.

Anyone who claims there's no shortage is full of shit.

Please, if you know good software engineers in the bay area, NYC, seattle, or boston, send me a message. I could use the referral bonus.

Edit:

And, in case you're wondering, someone with that experience will make around $150-200k, plus bonus and equity. The benefits are pretty obscene, too.

Great, if you can send me a job description and some contact info I'll be happy to check around. I know quite a few software engineers who may fit your needs.

Description is "software engineer". You write code, review code, design documents, go to meetings, work with product/marketing/design people. The same as any other software engineering description.

I could have sworn patrick.net had a way to send private messages to people. Am I imagining things? Email me at patnet+nospam@etnu.org if you want details

zzyzzx says

Kevin says

And, in case you're wondering, someone with that experience will make around $150-200k, plus bonus and equity. The benefits are pretty obscene, too.

Last time I was looking for a job (almost 2 years ago) and in the DC - Baltimore area, the going rate was about half that, on a good day.

Well, we pay the same anywhere in the U.S. If someone has the qualifications that the guy I interviewed supposedly had, that's what he would make. That's actually slightly more qualified than I am, and I make more than what I quoted.

I don't know that we have any engineering postions in DC proper, but we do have a pretty big engineering office in the boston area.

57   MisdemeanorRebel   2011 Nov 14, 8:16am  

Kevin says

And, in case you're wondering, someone with that experience will make around $150-200k, plus bonus and equity. The benefits are pretty obscene, too.

Which is odd, because at that salary, you're offering well above the 90th percentile in terms of salary for all Software Engineers.

In May 2008, median annual wages of wage-and-salary computer applications software engineers were $85,430. The middle 50 percent earned between $67,790 and $104,870. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $53,720, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $128,870. Median annual wages in the industries employing the largest numbers of computer applications software engineers in May 2008 were as follows:

Professional and commercial equipment and supplies merchant wholesalers $93,740
Software publishers 87,710
Management of companies and enterprises 85,990
Computer systems design and related services 84,610
Insurance carriers 80,370

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos303.htm

58   New Renter   2011 Nov 14, 9:19am  

thunderlips11 says

Which is odd, because at that salary, you're offering well above the 90th percentile in terms of salary for all Software Engineers.

That's a salary for a dual masters CS/EE with 8+ years of industry experience. I'd guess that is a bit above the median employee in the BOE stats. Add value for "being able to implement a trivial serialization problem -- the kind that any first-year CS student should be able to handle."

59   nope   2011 Nov 14, 4:31pm  

thunderlips11 says

Which is odd, because at that salary, you're offering well above the 90th percentile in terms of salary for all Software Engineers.

Yes, we are. That's what you do in order to hire the best people. Frankly, most of the people making $50k are still overpaid relative to the quality of their work (there is such a thing as negative contribution).

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