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6103
Tenpoundbass
2023 Jun 28, 12:53pm
Tenpoundbass
2023 Jun 28, 12:53pm
OK now do Lab space values and the corresponding D50 white point.
Earlier cameras were dark, you had to bring them in a photo editing program on your computer to brighten them up.
And they still looked washed out and crappy.
I think my previous statement stood on its own in the realm of plausible without a lesson in luminosity heuristics.
Earlier cameras were dark, you had to bring them in a photo editing program on your computer to brighten them up.
And they still looked washed out and crappy.
I think my previous statement stood on its own in the realm of plausible without a lesson in luminosity heuristics.
6104
richwicks
2023 Jun 28, 1:05pm
richwicks
2023 Jun 28, 1:05pm
Tenpoundbass says
You probably know more than I do. I read about the curve of luminosity somewhere, and I tried it out. There's 2 episodes of the original Twilight Zone done that were on video tape, and it SHOWS. If I ever figure out how to apply the luminosity levels on video with ffmpeg, and not just a single image, I'll fix them.
You know - I've seen the Twilight Zone on television where they modified it, to appear like tape - it seemed "cheap". I was at my neighbor's place, and we happened upon an episode, and I was like "wait, I have this" and moved the same episode to his television, so he could see it properly. I think they do this so you won't record - you certainly wouldn't want to, it just looks awful.
You might be right about early cameras on phones, but I suspect somebody who knows more than me was fucking around. It is kind of funny as a cat picture. I'm not an expert in photography, but I know a TINY bit about it. I used to work for RCA. People who are like "4K is WAY BETTER than 1080p" - nope. You can tell the difference in video on 720 to 1080 - but above that, unless it's a static image, no. That's why those values were picking. 720 is plenty really. Some mutants can tell the difference between 4K and 8K on a static image, but above 8K - nobody can. I think the default video quality for all of time in the future will be 4K, maybe even 1080p.
EDIT: Apparently SIX episodes were shot on tape of the Twilight Zone:
"The Lateness of the Hour"
"Static"
"The Whole Truth"
"Night of the Meek"
"Twenty Two"
"Long Distance Call"
The Lateness of the Hour I remember, it just looked terrible. I'd like to fix it, if there is an ffmpeg filter for it.
OK now do Lab space values and the corresponding D50 white point.
Earlier cameras were dark, you had to bring them in a photo editing program on your computer to brighten them up.
And they still looked washed out and crappy.
I think my previous statement stood on its own in the realm of plausible without a lesson in luminosity heuristics.
You probably know more than I do. I read about the curve of luminosity somewhere, and I tried it out. There's 2 episodes of the original Twilight Zone done that were on video tape, and it SHOWS. If I ever figure out how to apply the luminosity levels on video with ffmpeg, and not just a single image, I'll fix them.
You know - I've seen the Twilight Zone on television where they modified it, to appear like tape - it seemed "cheap". I was at my neighbor's place, and we happened upon an episode, and I was like "wait, I have this" and moved the same episode to his television, so he could see it properly. I think they do this so you won't record - you certainly wouldn't want to, it just looks awful.
You might be right about early cameras on phones, but I suspect somebody who knows more than me was fucking around. It is kind of funny as a cat picture. I'm not an expert in photography, but I know a TINY bit about it. I used to work for RCA. People who are like "4K is WAY BETTER than 1080p" - nope. You can tell the difference in video on 720 to 1080 - but above that, unless it's a static image, no. That's why those values were picking. 720 is plenty really. Some mutants can tell the difference between 4K and 8K on a static image, but above 8K - nobody can. I think the default video quality for all of time in the future will be 4K, maybe even 1080p.
EDIT: Apparently SIX episodes were shot on tape of the Twilight Zone:
"The Lateness of the Hour"
"Static"
"The Whole Truth"
"Night of the Meek"
"Twenty Two"
"Long Distance Call"
The Lateness of the Hour I remember, it just looked terrible. I'd like to fix it, if there is an ffmpeg filter for it.
6105
Tenpoundbass
2023 Jun 28, 1:37pm
Tenpoundbass
2023 Jun 28, 1:37pm
Yeah those channels on the digital over the air antennas show classic reruns that are poor quality like that.
You buy HD TV's and spend money on HD antennas, and the networks intentionally broadcasts in LoFi.
What was limiting about those early digital cameras was the 800 X 600 resolution. Remember that Sony Camera that took pictures and saved them to a floppy disk?
Later came some of the first snazzy Digital cameras like Sony Cool Pic was only 3 mp resolution. But it was the size of the Nokia Chicklet phone with the cool sounding telescoping lens. The resolution, contrast and saturation still sucked though. It wasn't until we got at least 8 mp things started looking up. To me nothing short of 12mp will do.
You buy HD TV's and spend money on HD antennas, and the networks intentionally broadcasts in LoFi.
What was limiting about those early digital cameras was the 800 X 600 resolution. Remember that Sony Camera that took pictures and saved them to a floppy disk?
Later came some of the first snazzy Digital cameras like Sony Cool Pic was only 3 mp resolution. But it was the size of the Nokia Chicklet phone with the cool sounding telescoping lens. The resolution, contrast and saturation still sucked though. It wasn't until we got at least 8 mp things started looking up. To me nothing short of 12mp will do.
6106
richwicks
2023 Jun 28, 2:42pm
richwicks
2023 Jun 28, 2:42pm
Tenpoundbass says
They are going through effort to fuck up the video. It's not an artifact of the broadcast - also this was on cable, but that doesn't matter. It looked TERRIBLE. They went through effort to make it look AWFUL.
Tenpoundbass says
I don't know precisely, but probably technology constraints. I had (actually still have) an early Kodak Camera - great color pickup, but 32 pictures, and the batteries have to be replaced, and it doesn't work on rechargables.
Here's a picture I took with my Kodak, and also messed with in gimp to remove some stuff with that camera:
You can see the grain in the picture, except where I did some editing. I used for foster Samoyeds, and that was her "rescue picture" - we had to make them look appealing, and I kept her, and good decision. She was a good dog and I was best possible owner for her. Need a 5' tall teddy bear? There's one in my closet, but I don't know if I want to sell it.. I have good memories of that dog, she was very good.
Tenpoundbass says
I disagree, higher resolution makes editing easier for certain, you can do digital zooms, but I think at 4K, that was enough. That's 8mp but I guess if you got it, flaunt it.
There's a company BTW that does an interesting technology for camera capture, but it's rarely used. What they do is stack the red / green / blue on top of each other instead of making a Bayer filter. Oh, here it is, Foveon:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foveon_X3_sensor
But Bayer filters are typically used, which reduces the ability to detect light to 1/3rd:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_filter
With Foveon, each photodetector detects the level of color, and if the wavelength is too long, it passes to the next level and if THAT is too long, it goes to the next level. It didn't do as well as it should although it's CLEARLY a superior technology, because we suck at identifying color but Bayer filters lose 2/3rds of the photons though absorbtion so they don't work as well in low light levels. We see mostly in black and white, and our brain makes up shit to fill in the color. That's why we have 4:2:2 chroma subsampling:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling
It's so weird in engineering to see the limitations of your own perception. Color isn't very important, you could take a color film, and reduce the resolution of the chroma DRASTICALLY and not notice it. Everything we have is engineered around the limits of our perception, from MP3 to video H.265. I wonder if animals can see it or hear it. I bet most of them can hear it, but not see it.
Yeah those channels on the digital over the air antennas show classic reruns that are poor quality like that.
They are going through effort to fuck up the video. It's not an artifact of the broadcast - also this was on cable, but that doesn't matter. It looked TERRIBLE. They went through effort to make it look AWFUL.
Tenpoundbass says
What was limiting about those early digital cameras was the 800 X 600 resolution. Remember that Sony Camera that took pictures and saved them to a floppy disk?
I don't know precisely, but probably technology constraints. I had (actually still have) an early Kodak Camera - great color pickup, but 32 pictures, and the batteries have to be replaced, and it doesn't work on rechargables.
Here's a picture I took with my Kodak, and also messed with in gimp to remove some stuff with that camera:
You can see the grain in the picture, except where I did some editing. I used for foster Samoyeds, and that was her "rescue picture" - we had to make them look appealing, and I kept her, and good decision. She was a good dog and I was best possible owner for her. Need a 5' tall teddy bear? There's one in my closet, but I don't know if I want to sell it.. I have good memories of that dog, she was very good.
Tenpoundbass says
It wasn't until we got at least 8 mp things started looking up. To me nothing short of 12mp will do.
I disagree, higher resolution makes editing easier for certain, you can do digital zooms, but I think at 4K, that was enough. That's 8mp but I guess if you got it, flaunt it.
There's a company BTW that does an interesting technology for camera capture, but it's rarely used. What they do is stack the red / green / blue on top of each other instead of making a Bayer filter. Oh, here it is, Foveon:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foveon_X3_sensor
But Bayer filters are typically used, which reduces the ability to detect light to 1/3rd:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayer_filter
With Foveon, each photodetector detects the level of color, and if the wavelength is too long, it passes to the next level and if THAT is too long, it goes to the next level. It didn't do as well as it should although it's CLEARLY a superior technology, because we suck at identifying color but Bayer filters lose 2/3rds of the photons though absorbtion so they don't work as well in low light levels. We see mostly in black and white, and our brain makes up shit to fill in the color. That's why we have 4:2:2 chroma subsampling:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling
It's so weird in engineering to see the limitations of your own perception. Color isn't very important, you could take a color film, and reduce the resolution of the chroma DRASTICALLY and not notice it. Everything we have is engineered around the limits of our perception, from MP3 to video H.265. I wonder if animals can see it or hear it. I bet most of them can hear it, but not see it.
6107
richwicks
2023 Jun 29, 10:03am
The real joke, is that this is a REAL ARTICLE:
https://nypost.com/2022/03/22/zelensky-we-wont-join-nato-if-that-brings-peace/
richwicks
2023 Jun 29, 10:03am
The real joke, is that this is a REAL ARTICLE:
https://nypost.com/2022/03/22/zelensky-we-wont-join-nato-if-that-brings-peace/
6108
Tenpoundbass
2023 Jun 29, 10:16am
Tenpoundbass
2023 Jun 29, 10:16am
richwicks says
Perhaps I'm more discerning than you. But that picture looks like the light levels are all over the place. If you brought it in and tried to balance it and make it look better. Then the colors start tinting green, and gets grainy. And if you view a 600 X 800 picture on a modern high res computer you need to zoom in to see better detail then that's when it goes to pot.
We took thousands of film camera photos of the kids as babies and growing toddlers, by time they were elementary age. Digital cameras became a thing.
They just did not hold up to our expectations. We weren't happy with the results until at least 8mp.
I mean if you just want an image to text back to the wife while your out shopping, its good, but if you want a saved memory they are not. They just look so pedestrian even worse than 110 camera roll film or Polaroid.
Perhaps I'm more discerning than you. But that picture looks like the light levels are all over the place. If you brought it in and tried to balance it and make it look better. Then the colors start tinting green, and gets grainy. And if you view a 600 X 800 picture on a modern high res computer you need to zoom in to see better detail then that's when it goes to pot.
We took thousands of film camera photos of the kids as babies and growing toddlers, by time they were elementary age. Digital cameras became a thing.
They just did not hold up to our expectations. We weren't happy with the results until at least 8mp.
I mean if you just want an image to text back to the wife while your out shopping, its good, but if you want a saved memory they are not. They just look so pedestrian even worse than 110 camera roll film or Polaroid.
6109
richwicks
2023 Jun 29, 10:22am
richwicks
2023 Jun 29, 10:22am
Tenpoundbass says
You're entirely wrong. Consider what we had for photographs just 50 years ago, or 100. The photograph above was taken in 2002 or so, brand new technology. The sensor on the Kodak doesn't even exist anymore.
I mean if you just want an image to text back to the wife while your out shopping, its good, but if you want a saved memory they are not. They just look so pedestrian even worse than 110 camera roll film or Polaroid.
You're entirely wrong. Consider what we had for photographs just 50 years ago, or 100. The photograph above was taken in 2002 or so, brand new technology. The sensor on the Kodak doesn't even exist anymore.
6110
Tenpoundbass
2023 Jun 29, 12:07pm
Tenpoundbass
2023 Jun 29, 12:07pm
richwicks says
I had an Indian engineer that has worked on imaging hardware in the past. Tell me that every sensor in a digital camera were the exact same. There are only a few manufacturers around the world. Every digital camera used the exact same part. What makes it 1mp vs 12mp is the processor and imaging software embedded in the chip on the camera. That was way back in 2013, I don't know if that is still the case..
The photograph above was taken in 2002 or so, brand new technology. The sensor on the Kodak doesn't even exist anymore.
I had an Indian engineer that has worked on imaging hardware in the past. Tell me that every sensor in a digital camera were the exact same. There are only a few manufacturers around the world. Every digital camera used the exact same part. What makes it 1mp vs 12mp is the processor and imaging software embedded in the chip on the camera. That was way back in 2013, I don't know if that is still the case..
6111
richwicks
2023 Jun 29, 12:33pm
richwicks
2023 Jun 29, 12:33pm
Tenpoundbass says
I see this as possible.
What makes it 1mp vs 12mp is the processor and imaging software embedded in the chip on the camera. That was way back in 2013, I don't know if that is still the case..
I see this as possible.
6113
Reality
2023 Jun 29, 2:36pm
Tenpoundbass says
Not quite. A lot of phones and point-and-shoot cameras do use the same camera capture sensors around the same generation of products (sensor makers' output go through generations every 3-5 years), but the digital SLR's and professional digital video cameras have different sensors, much larger sensors for better signal-to-noise ratio (due to lamda/D quantum limit; wavelength over feature size, the size of each light-trapping pit a "pixel"). It wouldn't make sense for a phone or a P+S camera to have a large sensor that would cost much more money. Also, until 2017, Sony was making CCD sensors of various sizes while Canon was making CMOS sensors of various sizes, before Sony switched to CMOS. IIRC, Canon started making large CMOS sensors back around 2000.
I had an Indian engineer that has worked on imaging hardware in the past. Tell me that every sensor in a digital camera were the exact same. There are only a few manufacturers around the world. Every digital camera used the exact same part. What makes it 1mp vs 12mp is the processor and imaging software embedded in the chip on the camera. That was way back in 2013, I don't know if that is still the case..
Not quite. A lot of phones and point-and-shoot cameras do use the same camera capture sensors around the same generation of products (sensor makers' output go through generations every 3-5 years), but the digital SLR's and professional digital video cameras have different sensors, much larger sensors for better signal-to-noise ratio (due to lamda/D quantum limit; wavelength over feature size, the size of each light-trapping pit a "pixel"). It wouldn't make sense for a phone or a P+S camera to have a large sensor that would cost much more money. Also, until 2017, Sony was making CCD sensors of various sizes while Canon was making CMOS sensors of various sizes, before Sony switched to CMOS. IIRC, Canon started making large CMOS sensors back around 2000.
6115
Ceffer
2023 Jun 29, 5:58pm
Ceffer
2023 Jun 29, 5:58pm
Snail physicists have no explanation, except they don't look older when they get back.
6116
DOGEWontAmountToShit
2023 Jun 29, 7:26pm
DOGEWontAmountToShit
2023 Jun 29, 7:26pm
Ok, I am starting to warm up to the quirky new chief engineer in Star Trek: Strange New Worlds:
"I still have a bunker in Vermont in case this whole ‘no-money socialist utopia’ thing turns out to be a fad.”
#NoMoneySocialistUtopiaThing
"I still have a bunker in Vermont in case this whole ‘no-money socialist utopia’ thing turns out to be a fad.”
#NoMoneySocialistUtopiaThing
6124
rocketjoe79
2023 Jul 1, 11:52am
rocketjoe79
2023 Jul 1, 11:52am
Trollhole says
She did a scene in Princess Bride with Billy Crystal. Glad she's bringing flavor to the show.
Ok, I am starting to warm up to the quirky new chief engineer in Star Trek: Strange New Worlds:
"I still have a bunker in Vermont in case this whole ‘no-money socialist utopia’ thing turns out to be a fad.”
#NoMoneySocialistUtopiaThing
She did a scene in Princess Bride with Billy Crystal. Glad she's bringing flavor to the show.
6125
richwicks
2023 Jul 1, 12:09pm
richwicks
2023 Jul 1, 12:09pm
Trollhole says
@Trollhole What episode? I doubt this was said in the show, but I have some time to waste. Tell me, and I'll find out.
I'd be absolutely shocked if anything on television pushed back on this woke bullshit.
Ok, I am starting to warm up to the quirky new chief engineer in Star Trek: Strange New Worlds:
"I still have a bunker in Vermont in case this whole ‘no-money socialist utopia’ thing turns out to be a fad.”
#NoMoneySocialistUtopiaThing
@Trollhole What episode? I doubt this was said in the show, but I have some time to waste. Tell me, and I'll find out.
I'd be absolutely shocked if anything on television pushed back on this woke bullshit.
6126
DOGEWontAmountToShit
2023 Jul 1, 2:05pm
DOGEWontAmountToShit
2023 Jul 1, 2:05pm
richwicks says
It was said. A poke at Gene Roddenberry's socialist bullshit he pushed in TOS and Next Generation. Only in DS9 did they start to make some (light) criticism with it.
I didn't believe it when I heard it first. Had to rewind and play it back 4 or so times. It is also brought up in online reviews already.
Latest episode. Time travel one.
I doubt this was said in the show, but I have some time to waste. Tell me, and I'll find out.
It was said. A poke at Gene Roddenberry's socialist bullshit he pushed in TOS and Next Generation. Only in DS9 did they start to make some (light) criticism with it.
I didn't believe it when I heard it first. Had to rewind and play it back 4 or so times. It is also brought up in online reviews already.
Latest episode. Time travel one.
6127
richwicks
2023 Jul 1, 2:56pm
richwicks
2023 Jul 1, 2:56pm
Trollhole says
Apparently "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow". In any case, I'll watch it to find it.
The idea of Star Trek was a POST scarcity society. The original series was conceived around the idea that all problems of humanity had been solved, and all that humanity was doing was exploring the universe to learn more.
IF we could make something like replicators, it's entirely possible - HOWEVER, the show also assumed the eradication of sociopaths. Criminality was treated as a mental illness. Nobody needed to steal anything or commit any crime, because everybody could have anything they wanted, and humanity was reduced to only intellectual pursuit. Everybody was given equal opportunity, and the people aboard a starship were the brightest and best of humanity. A single starship was able to destroy a planet. Basically, the men that went out were essentially gods even compared to us.
That's why there were such strict regulations on sanity and checking sanity. Ship's doctor could remove the captain.
There was still a capitalist system, but people who worked, were incredibly wealthy. Captain Kirk didn't work. I suppose the only competition that existed was over space.
It's not a communist system, it's a system that can't exist and probably never can exist. It assumed we eliminated criminality in our species and although criminals SOMETIMES showed up, it was rare, and a mental ailment. The whole idea was a utopia of a better future.
In almost every case, any conflict was resolved though co-operation and understanding, but than the Klingons (the USSR) became the enemy du-jour. Devil in the Dark was about a monster lifeform which wasn't actually a monster, but was just protecting it's children from unknowing miners, who didn't realize they were in conflict, and the resolution was cooperation. It was very common theme through the series that diplomacy solved the problem, not violence or force.
richwicks says
I doubt this was said in the show, but I have some time to waste. Tell me, and I'll find out.
It was said. A poke at Gene Roddenberry's socialist bullshit he pushed in TOS and Next Generation. Only in DS9 did they start to make some (light) criticism with it.
I didn't believe it when I heard it first. Had to rewind and play it back 4 or so times. It is also brought up in online reviews already.
Latest episode. Time travel one.
Apparently "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow". In any case, I'll watch it to find it.
The idea of Star Trek was a POST scarcity society. The original series was conceived around the idea that all problems of humanity had been solved, and all that humanity was doing was exploring the universe to learn more.
IF we could make something like replicators, it's entirely possible - HOWEVER, the show also assumed the eradication of sociopaths. Criminality was treated as a mental illness. Nobody needed to steal anything or commit any crime, because everybody could have anything they wanted, and humanity was reduced to only intellectual pursuit. Everybody was given equal opportunity, and the people aboard a starship were the brightest and best of humanity. A single starship was able to destroy a planet. Basically, the men that went out were essentially gods even compared to us.
That's why there were such strict regulations on sanity and checking sanity. Ship's doctor could remove the captain.
There was still a capitalist system, but people who worked, were incredibly wealthy. Captain Kirk didn't work. I suppose the only competition that existed was over space.
It's not a communist system, it's a system that can't exist and probably never can exist. It assumed we eliminated criminality in our species and although criminals SOMETIMES showed up, it was rare, and a mental ailment. The whole idea was a utopia of a better future.
In almost every case, any conflict was resolved though co-operation and understanding, but than the Klingons (the USSR) became the enemy du-jour. Devil in the Dark was about a monster lifeform which wasn't actually a monster, but was just protecting it's children from unknowing miners, who didn't realize they were in conflict, and the resolution was cooperation. It was very common theme through the series that diplomacy solved the problem, not violence or force.
6128
richwicks
2023 Jul 1, 3:57pm
richwicks
2023 Jul 1, 3:57pm
Trollhole says
OK, confirmed, but she's depicted as a nut:
Also, got 30 minutes into it, television is utterly unwatchable to me. Social propaganda is oozing out of it. Push for a one world government is, and even project Blue Beam.
richwicks says
I doubt this was said in the show, but I have some time to waste. Tell me, and I'll find out.
It was said. A poke at Gene Roddenberry's socialist bullshit he pushed in TOS and Next Generation. Only in DS9 did they start to make some (light) criticism with it.
I didn't believe it when I heard it first. Had to rewind and play it back 4 or so times. It is also brought up in online reviews already.
Latest episode. Time travel one.
OK, confirmed, but she's depicted as a nut:
Also, got 30 minutes into it, television is utterly unwatchable to me. Social propaganda is oozing out of it. Push for a one world government is, and even project Blue Beam.
6135
Patrick
2023 Jul 2, 10:26am
Patrick
2023 Jul 2, 10:26am
Lol, that's up there with:
"I don't drink anymore. I don't drink any less, either."
"I don't drink anymore. I don't drink any less, either."
6141
fdhfoiehfeoi
2023 Jul 3, 8:37am
fdhfoiehfeoi
2023 Jul 3, 8:37am
Does stuff like this even happen anymore? Seems like the neighborhood vibe, and the generation that played outside is long gone...
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