patrick.net

liv4ever says

thunderlips11 says

Contrast this with the assertion that believers should be able to drink poison to no effect.

"They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark 16:18

The King James Version and other older translations present those verses as if they were part of the original text. The New Revised Standard Version, The New American Standard Bible, and The New King James Version note that those verses do not appear in most of the oldest manuscripts of Mark’s Gospel.

So... you are saying someone has been manipulating the word of god!

I don't believe it! God would strike them down!

Even it that was the case in this incidence, I am sure everything else is true!

liv4ever says

you have a valid argument but what are the facts ?

A study of the Isaiah text from the dead sea scrolls proved that this book had remained practically unchanged over a period of 1,000 years of hand copying.

"practically unchanged" being the pertinent observation here.

OK, sarcasm aside...

My argument:
"God" does not prevent the bible -- or his word -- from being altered by man. This being the case how can one trust the bible as being the "true" word of god.

Facts:
The bible can be mistakenly manipulated by those that wish to preserve the original text. Evidenced by the Isaiah text from the dead sea scrolls, there are many small differences between the dead sea scrolls and modern text. However, I think that we can agree that even with the small changes the message is "practically unchanged".

The bible can be purposely/maliciously manipulated in order to satisfy the desires of man. Evidenced by Mark 16:18 as per liv4ever's claims. Also, christian additions to the book of Job are good examples as well.

Well... there is my argument and the facts, and given the evidence that god is unable or unwilling to prevent changes to the bible we can't even be sure that the dead sea scroll of Isaiah was not manipulated before being sealed in the cave.

There is hope! There are many organizations our there that will help you to identify what in the bible is the true word and what is not. Also, they help you to understand the differences between what is meant to be taken literally and what should be taken as metaphor. There are payment plans to meet any budget. Many groups accept either a subscription or will even take bulk payments in exchange for this service!

WARNING!!! This is what happens when you choose not to believe in God...

http://www.youtube.com/embed/iCQ4QLFl01g

liv4ever says

Out of curiosity I just googled "evolution fraud" and got 33,000,000 results.

This is your worst argument yet. I hope you don't seriously view this as any kind of evidence one way or another.

Also, I went ahead and Googled "evolution fraud" and only got 30,700,000 results. Searching just "evolution" gives 604,000,000 results. So, about 5% of the results have some mention of fraud.

Performing the same searches in regards to "intelligent design" gives 2,430,000 with "fraud" and 13,900,000 without. So, about 17% of results mention fraud.

Hmmm... very... very... interesting... or not really. I think we can agree that these results mean absolutely nothing.

liv4ever says

Schools , on the other hand treat evolution theory as fact as well as t.v. and mainstream media when the issue clearly has not been settled ... why?

Because the preponderance of evidence supports evolution over intelligent design. Also, intelligent design is not science it is theology. They are totally different disciplines.

The only people who feel that the issue has not be settled -- actually they think the issue has been settled -- are those that want their theology to dictate what scientific research is available to others.

liv4ever says

either that or life got here by creation not evolution as the Bible said over 3500 years ago on page 1.

I know that you like to pick the version of the bible that best suites your views, but I am curious what version says life was put on this planet 3500 years ago?

liv4ever says

Evolution directly contradicts the basic theme of the whole Bible which says that all that God created was "very good".

Agreed.

liv4ever says

"Punctuated equilibrium" attempts to explain away the fact that the overwhelming majority of fossils indicate no transitional life forms.

Comments like these are one of the fundamental reasons why it is clear that people who adhere to intelligent design do not understand evolution. They seem to be always looking for the half-shark half-rabbit.

All life is a transitional life form. YOU are a transitional life form.

Also, belief in the bible and evolution are not mutually exclusive. Many christians are able to reconcile evolution with their faith. You seem like a person who enjoys intellectual stimulation. You would probably really enjoy gaining a better understanding of what evolution is really about and the evidence that supports it.

liv4ever says

oh really? then why are all the missing links still missing? Let me ask you this? If a pile of rubble was left lying on the ground, would you expect to come to come back Any amount of time later, no matter how long, and find a castle ? Evolution requires a greater leap of faith than the Bible's account.

The fossil record is full of transitional species both in the hominoid lines and the non-hominoid lines. If you want to find every single transitional species in Earth's history we need to take away all the money that goes to religion and use it to fund paleontology. Paleontologists make very little money and must constantly beg for research grants to fund their excavations. The fact that paleontologists have gathered so much evidence with such miniscule funding is a testament to how wonderful, dedicated, and hard-working they are.

But even without any fossil evidence, the genetic evidence is overwhelming. And if you disagree then organize protests to petition government to release all the people convicted of rape or murder using DNA evidence. We put people to death and exonerate people from crimes based on the science of genetics.

Evolution requires no leap of faith. The statement is even more ridiculous when you learn that corporations are now using applied evolution to develop new products like biological batteries by manipulating the genome of bacteria using evolution. To state that evolution is fake, or even possibly so, is akin to stating the laws of physics we use to keep satellites in orbit is complete bullshit. Funny how multi-billion dollar communication arrays can stay in orbit using only bullshit.

liv4ever says

Evolution theory remains after 100 years just that - theory.

No scientist would say anything so ignorant. A theory is not a guess. A theory is a conceptual framework which makes testable predictions. Once a theory is proven, it is still a theory because it can still be tested and retested. Once a theory, always a theory.

Theory does not mean guess, and a theory can be verified as true. Newton's theory of gravity is still a theory and always will be. It is also true beyond all doubt reasonable or otherwise.

No scientist would make the mistake of thinking that a theory is an unproven conjecture. There is no way you have a degree in physics or mathematics.

What's really sad it that I've already explained what a theory is several times on patrick.net. And you still get it wrong. This isn't a minor mistake. It demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what science is and how it works.

liv4ever says

Only now, most evolutionists reject Darwin's original assumptions and have very little agreement about anything.

Evolutionist? That's a new one to me. A cursory Google search shows that evolutionist is a derogatory term that creationist use to refer to those who accept the theory of evolution. Of course, every biologist accepts the theory of evolution. So the purpose of creationist coining and using the term evolutionist is to give the deliberately false impression that there is an actual debate in the scientific community about whether or not evolution is the correct theory for explaining the development and history of life.

There is no debate. The entire scientific community accepts evolution as the correct theory. It is widely said that nothing in biology makes sense except in terms of evolution.

To even use this term suggests that you are resorting to deliberate deception to support your myths.

PersainCAT says

you just disagree with them and say that journal articles arent a valid source now becasue wikipedia uses them

I would never say that. It is quite possible, and inevitable, that some Wikipedia articles will reference legitimate and respectable resources. What I have said is that you can't rely on Wikipedia references because the special interest groups controlling the article will cherry pick references that support the message they want the public to hear and will revert any reference that distracts from that message.

As such, Wikipedia does not even offer the benefit of pointing people to good sources of information. So people should just stick to Google search results. They aren't perfect by a long shot, but they are incalculably better than Wikipedia. And my quote in your response says exactly this.

thunderlips11 says

Also, as Dan stated above, the Judeo-Christian mythos has a lot in common with those "Wicked" Babylonians, Assyrians, etc. No doubt the ancient Canaanites borrowed "Magic" Numbers, Astrology, and basic myths from their neighbors.

Yep, this happens more so than most people are willing to acknowledge. All the myths of Judaism and Christianity are either blended with pagan myths or outright stolen from them.

Ever wonder why 666 is the mark of the beast? 6 is one less than 7, the holy number that came from 7 visible celestial bodies. And it is written three times because three is another one of those holy numbers. If there were 8 visible celestial bodies in our solar system, the mark of the beast would have been 777.

The entire Jesus myth was stolen from Horus. This was well stated in the clip from the movie Religulous.

liv4ever says

Darwin predicted that missing links would be found. He even said that his theory must be abandoned if no links were found.

That's the great difference between science and religion. Science accepts abandoning incorrect ideas. Religion does not because doing so would eliminate all of its power.

And the fact that you say there are no missing link files completely destroys your credibility.

liv4ever says

so you are confident that given enough time a pile of rubble will become a castle all by itself ? that is a long walk.

Perhaps if castles were made of organic molecules instead of rocks... That you would even make such an argument shows you speak from a position of ignorance, especially when you live in a time where almost all of man's knowledge is but a Google search away.

What you are talking about is abiogenesis, which is a separate subject from The Theory of Evolution. Evolution does not address the question of abiogenesis, however, chemistry does. And if you were a real physicist, you'd have no problem with The Chemical Theory of Abiogenesis.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/U6QYDdgP9eg

liv4ever says

thunderlips11 says

Most humans that live next to large bodies of water have flood legends:

your contentions support the biblical account.

Hardly. The Bible account says that a mere two animals makes a breeding population. Maybe that goes in your family, but it does not work in nature.

liv4ever says

how much would you bet on that mistaken notion.

Pascal's wager is a suckers bet.

liv4ever says

Plenty of scientists believe in creation.

Sure, apparently about 5% of scientists believe in creation. With the 10's or 100's of thousands of scientists 5% is plenty of people.

liv4ever says

the majority is not always correct, even if it is composed of scientists.

True, the trick though is to try and understand why the 95% believe what they do. What evidence is given to support an idea.

...and, how reliable is the theory...

liv4ever says

1. yes DNA works for crime investigation . However it works against the theory of evolution.

See... here is where your credibility starts to breakdown...

liv4ever says

Dan8267 says

Evolution requires no leap of faith. The statement is even more ridiculous when you learn that corporations are now using applied evolution to develop new products like biological batteries by manipulating the genome of bacteria using evolution.

That is way off, Dan. Do you work for Monsanto?Get ready to reap the whirlwind of that flawed scheme.

And, even more so here. Not much research is required to see that Dan is totally correct in that applied evolution is extensively used in both academic and corporate settings today. It is like you are telling shipping companies that their crazy spherical earth "theory" is all wrong and the bible indicates that the world is flat (which it does, BTW). All the while ship captains continue to use their "round earth theory" to great effect.

I know it is long, but here is a podcast -- of a great show, BTW -- that has a segment on how researchers reliable have used the evolution of the DNA in HIV to better understand the virus.

http://www.radiolab.org/2011/nov/14/

Another interesting note is that an understanding of evolution was required for 47 of the last 50 breakthroughs in medicine or physiology that lead to a Nobel Prize.

http://ncse.com/rncse/25/3-4/evolution-is-winner-breakthroughs-prizes

liv4ever says

Or are you not aware that there is very little agreement on your side, except that life had evolve because if it didn't that would mean that God must have created the universe, a thought they desperately avoid.

No, even assuming that evolution was totally wrong the logical conclusion does not have to be that god created the universe.
- Perhaps the universe popped into existence just as it is with no god involved at all.
- Or perhaps the universe has always existed just as it is today and there was no creation moment

Baring the above scenarios, if there was an intelligent designer(s) the designer may not be a "god", or may not be the christian god. This brings us back to Pascal's wager...

...if you believe in intelligent design, perhaps you better hedge your bets and start praying to as many gods as possible.

liv4ever says

The Question of how life got here is one of the most important questions.

I agree. While that question is never going to be resolved in an internet forum it is an important question.

Not only that, but I feel it is important to have civil contact/discussion with people who do not believe the same as yourself.

Also, I hate to nit-pick here, but...

GameOver says

humans are PRIMATES. Glorified MONKEYS who have lost our tails and most of our bodily hair.

Homosapiens did not lose the tails. The great apes lost the tails before they spawned us.

liv4ever says

Dan8267 says

Paleontologists make very little money

science is big business, college man. Welcome to the real world.

Paleontologists doing scientific research make a measly $40k/yr. Paleontologists working for oil companies looking for places to drill make around $140k/yr. Oil companies hire them for their knowledge of geology.

So, working for big oil would make a paleontologist over three times as much income as working on science. Working on science is a labor of love.

I will admit that I do confuse PerCat and liv4ever. Evidently all stupidity looks alike to me.

How one could possibly make the argument that genetic science contradicts evolution is beyond me, but it does prove a point that some irrational people want the benefits of science (curing diseases, high tech weapons, locking up rapist and murderers) but don't want to acknowledge that science is right. So they have to make up strange fantasy worlds to resolve the inherit conflict.

P is for Pendetta

Made it.

Old software. Basically, it's Photoshop light for non-artist folks.

liv4ever says

Dan8267 says

to resolve the inherit conflict.

INHERENT not inherit... (your welcome in advance)
and you call me stupid?

Yes, especially when the worst counterargument you can come up with is a typo miscorrected by Firefox's lousy spellchecker. That's really reaching for straws.

liv4ever says

which diseases have they cured

http://bit.ly/xaCQN1

liv4ever says

high tech weapons

nuclear warhead, intercontinental ballistic missiles, supersonic aircraft, stealth bombers, C4, det cord, robotic mine sweepers, smart bombs, laser guided rockets, gps, satellite imaging, radar

Are you really that stupid?

liv4ever says

It was already agreed that DNA is beneficial for crime-solving.

It is pure hypocrisy to use DNA and genetic science for convicting people of crimes and then not accept the conclusion that man is descended from monkeys as proven by that very same genetic science. It's like saying nuclear physics is OK for making bombs, but not explaining how the sun works.

liv4ever says

Dan8267 says

nuclear warhead, intercontinental ballistic missiles, supersonic aircraft, stealth bombers, C4, det cord, robotic mine sweepers, smart bombs, laser guided rockets, gps, satellite imaging, radar

Are you really that stupid?

Are you saying these terrible things have benefited mankind? or do you mean that "christians" use them and simultaneously reject evolution ?

Is a century long global plague of iatrogenic disease BENEFICIAL ? And you call me dangerous ?

No you dumb ass, I'm not. You asked what for examples of high tech weapons that the pro-war Christian right loves to use against our so-called enemies and I gave you examples.

As I have stated many times, if it were up to me, our "defense" budget would be reduced by at least 90%.

liv4ever says

If you could change a dog into a porpoise or anything else into anything else.

Take a fertilize dog egg, and replace the genetic code with porpoise DNA and plant it into a purpose womb and it would probably work if done right. But that's irrelevant to the fact that the very science used to convict people with DNA evidence is the exact same science to perform paternity test and is the exact same science that proves man is descendant from monkeys.

So, are you really going to go on the record as stating that man is not descendant from monkeys?

liv4ever says

When will it be delivered ?

Three years after all legislation passed by religious people have been revoked. Businesses aren't going to supply that demand unless they are confident that their business isn't going to be shut down by legislation passed because of religious lobbying. That's also why we don't have human cloning yet even though it could save millions of lives a year by ending waiting lists for transplants.

liv4ever says

Dan8267 says

So, are you really going to go on the record as stating that man is not descendant from monkeys?

You already know the answer. this thread is too long by the way. can we at least agree on that ? 180 comments is taxing my commodore 64 to the limit . you can have the last word.

The most probable answer in my head is "No, you ware not going to go on the record as stating that man is not descendant from monkeys because you know that will make you look really stupid and no one will respect your opinion. However, that is what you actually believe or it is what you want others to believe so that your religion can still control them.".

However, I am more than willing to let you replace this answer with one that reflects more positively on yourself. In fact, I'm even willing to let you have the last word as long as that word is either "yes" or "no" and it addresses the question, "Is man descendant from monkey?".

so, "man" did come last? Just like Moses said? cool.

Bap33 says

so, "man" did come last? Just like Moses said? cool.

Last? You mean our species is the youngest and final species to come into existence? No. HIV is younger.

liv4ever says

you are always welcome to have the last word, sir.

in answer to your question "Is man descendant from monkey?" the answer is No.

Very well, then for the last word I'll bring this thread full circle once more and address how we know you are wrong about the descent of man.

As I've said before, you can't accept the existence of genes and DNA evidence without accepting the common descent of man. The genetic evidence for evolution and the descent of man is overwhelming.

The following video shows such genetic evidence. And if you don't believe the video's content, well there are ample resources on the Internet that back up the video. Resources such as academic papers, publications of scientific literature, and online courses in genetics.

But of course, no amount of evidence will convince a creationist that he is wrong. For the creationist does not care about truth. He only cares that other people fall in line under his religion as obedient slaves. For all those reading this thread, think about which person you trust more: someone who denies the truth regardless of the evidence, or someone who advocates rational thought and a respect for the truth whatever it is. Man can only be free when he has removed the shackles of faith in Bronze Age myths.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/p1R8w_QEvEU

http://www.youtube.com/embed/SF2N2lbb3dk

http://www.youtube.com/embed/nIsWZCSMSSs

liv4ever says

For example, the genetic makeup of chimpanzees differs from that of humans by only 1 percent. Still, that gap is ten times wider than the differences between the DNA of any two humans.

Mixing truth and lies is the epitome of deception. Bonobo chimps and humans differ by 1.2% of their DNA. Common chimp DNA differs from us slightly more. Two human beings differ from each other by less than 0.1%. The video does not contradict any of these facts.

Part 1 of the video shows how the Theory of Evolution correctly predicted a very particular fusion of two chromosomes in our ancestors and how that led to our species having 46 chromosomes. These facts are easily verified as are all the facts in the above video.

gold and lead have pretty close Atomic numbers.

Did Gold come from Lead, or did Lead come from Gold?

I know, I know, but it's the same arguement. Just being close and having commonality does not mean X came from Y.

All matter is made of atoms. So, all matter has commonality.
All living bio on earth is carbon based with DNA structure. So they not only share atoms and matter, but also share elements. Having a DNA string "suggest" a commonaltiy is not a big deal. Suggesting that some magic evolutionary malfunction fused some chromesomes that were working just fine aleady in their host ... and are still working just fine in their host .... and that somehow the malfunction found other hosts to carry on ... and the malfunction has never happened before of since in any other host group ...... geeese man, that is a HUGE leap of FAITH!! lmao.

On the other hand, God is not real specific about how he created man ... other than the formed from the dust of the earth part. So, if God created all the atoms to make all the matter to make all the elements to make all the bio and then made monkeys and then used a monkey base to get humanoids and used humanoids to get Adam and then used Adam to get Noah ... and then Abraham ... and then Isreal ... and then Moses ... and then You. Ok, on that we can agree.

Bap33 says

gold and lead have pretty close Atomic numbers.

Did Gold come from Lead, or did Lead come from Gold?

I know, I know, but it's the same arguement.

No it is not the same argument. The analogy fails; you are comparing apples to oranges -- or rather apples to bronze castings of an orange.

Fixed atomic numbers are not the same as DNA which has been shown to have variation in a species and change with time. The DNA of viruses has been shown to "evolve" over time into new novel viruses very different from an ancestor (see the link I posed above to the radio show). Scientists use this knowledge extensively, and effectively, when researching disease.

Bap33 says

Just being close and having commonality does not mean X came from Y.

Right, but evaluation of the evidence can lead to a reasonable conclusion that X came from Y. Especially when the conclusion that X came from Y is accurately used to predict future results of other experiments.

Bap33 says

[I]f God created all the atoms to make all the matter to make all the elements to make all the bio and then made monkeys and then used a monkey base to get humanoids and used humanoids to get Adam and then used Adam to get Noah ... and then Abraham ... and then Isreal ... and then Moses ... and then You. Ok, on that we can agree.

This is similar to the reasoning many religious people use to believe in evolution. Basically god(s) placed all the ingredients together and let nature take its course.

Bap33 says

Suggesting that some magic evolutionary malfunction fused some chromesomes that were working just fine aleady in their host ... and are still working just fine in their host .... and that somehow the malfunction found other hosts to carry on ... and the malfunction has never happened before of since in any other host group ...... geeese man, that is a HUGE leap of FAITH!! lmao.

There is NOTHING magical about non-random survival of randomly varying genes through geological time.

And moreover, there is no huge leap of faith when evolution sits on a mountain of scientific evidence.

Creationists cannot comprehend geological time (which is awfully long).

Bap33 says

God is not real specific about how he created man ... other than the formed from the dust of the earth part. So, if God created all the atoms to make all the matter to make all the elements to make all the bio and then made monkeys and then used a monkey base to get humanoids and used humanoids to get Adam and then used Adam to get Noah ... and then Abraham ... and then Isreal ... and then Moses ... and then You. Ok, on that we can agree.

LOL, the amount of assumptions you've made without any proof whatsoever is gigantic. Let's break it down.

1. Old father figure in the sky.
2. Old father figure in the sky created all atoms, matter, elements required for living beings
3. Old father figure in the sky used what he created in step #2 to make monkey bases
4. Old father figure in the sky used monkey bases to create humanoids
5. Old father figure in the sky transformed humanoids to humans

Hmm, let's see here.

On one hand, I have what you give: Mountains of assumptions with no proof.

On the other hand, I have a scientific theory that assumes very little and explains gigantic variety of life.

Tough choice indeed ;), but I have to pick the scientific theory because it actually stands closest to the truth.

Bap33 says

Did Gold come from Lead, or did Lead come from Gold?

Neither. Gold and lead both came from stardust, or less romantically, nuclear waste from exploding stars. Same for every element beyond Lithium in the periodic table up to Uranium.

leoj707 says

No it is not the same argument. The analogy fails; you are comparing apples to oranges -- or rather apples to bronze castings of an orange.
Fixed atomic numbers are not the same as DNA which has been shown to have variation in a species and change with time. The DNA of viruses has been shown to "evolve" over time into new novel viruses very different from an ancestor (see the link I posed above to the radio show). Scientists use this knowledge extensively, and effectively, when researching disease.
Bap33 says

Just being close and having commonality does not mean X came from Y.
Right, but evaluation of the evidence can lead to a reasonable conclusion that X came from Y. Especially when the conclusion that X came from Y is accurately used to predict future results of other experiments.

Leo, that would be fine if the base DNA host was no longer walking around. Since the DNA host that you point to is still walking around, in the exact same time and environments as the new improved DNA host, then there is a little problem with your assumption. Change does not happen just for no reason. And that time line needed by evolutionists keeps changing and, worse yet, has a HUGE varience. In my opinion.

Bap33 says

Leo, that would be fine if the base DNA host was no longer walking around. Since the DNA host that you point to is still walking around, in the exact same time and environments as the new improved DNA host, then there is a little problem with your assumption.

I am not sure what example you are citing here, but evolution has no conflict with two populations, one with "original" DNA and another with an "evolved" DNA, existing at the same time. In fact it probably happens that way more often that an entire population evolving all at once.

Bap33 says

Change does not happen just for no reason.

No it does not, I think uomo summed it up nicely:
uomo_senza_nome says

There is NOTHING magical about non-random survival of randomly varying genes through geological time.

Bap33 says

And that time line needed by evolutionists keeps changing...

Sure, that is the way science works. As additional data comes in viewpoints are changed to accept the new data. Yes, new data over the years has revised the way evolution is viewed, but new data has only strengthened the underlying assumptions of evolution. If new data were to disprove it, evolution as a theory would be abandon.

Intelligent design -- not being a science -- holds to its views regardless of new data coming in. That is fine if people want to believe in it, but it makes it not science.

Also, intelligent design would be much more believable to me if the design was... well... more intelligent. Humans -- you see -- are rather poorly designed. If the iPhone 5 has the same level of design flaws as humans there would be an outcry, a recall, and probably destroy the company.

Well... maybe not destroy the company... there would still be a fanatical loyal following claiming that there are no "real" problems with the phone and insisting that it was intelligently designed.

leoj707 says

I am not sure what example you are citing here, but evolution has no conflict with two populations, one with "original" DNA and another with an "evolved" DNA, existing at the same time. In fact it probably happens that way more often that an entire population evolving all at once.

it sure does have a conflict. The reason for the mutation and it's survival stand in contrast to the original host continuing unchanged while shareing the exact same habitat. The fused DNA would only happen with cause. That cause requires the host, with the unfused DNA, to be placed on the endangered list. Right?

The old earth stuff is bogus. There is just as much chance that the new fused DNA came out perfect and all new lifes that were born to Fused DNA came out with the fused DNA of the lone parent. There is no proof that the mutation required any more than two generations to split away completely from the host.

intel design: Your body carries the same percentage of basic elements as the entire universe. Same percentage of carbon, ect ect. Dr. ND Tyson showed me that. Pretty cool huh?

leoj707 says

If new data were to disprove it, evolution as a theory would be abandon.

maybe. But, after watching what happened with man-made global warming, I just don't think science works like you suggest.

The creationist writings in this thread are a perfect example of why children should not be exposed to religion. Notice how creationists simply discard all facts and replace them with false conjectures rather than even attempting to offer counter-evidence?

Creationists continually discard all knowledge that contradicts their mythology while still treating the Bible as an accurate historical record even the downright silly parts like a flaming sword guarding the garden of Eden or Adam living a thousand years and his kids having incestual relationships to produce our whole species.

This utter insistence to force a delusional view of history onto the world is a form of insanity no different than believing oneself to be Napoleon. And as such, it should be considered a form of mental retardation and those who are so delusional should not be allowed to vote.

liv4ever says

You got it goin' on, Adolph ...

Adolph was a Christian.

And in the United States, people with delusions and other mental illnesses cannot vote on the basis that they are not mentally capable of understanding what they are voting on. That's the law. If you don't like it, get the politicians to change it.

I don't see why we should violate the equal protection clause of the Constitution by discriminating against some delusions and discriminating for others. The content of the delusion shouldn't matter. The fact that the person has no grasp on reality should.

But believing in equality under law and in particular the equal protection clause makes me equivalent to Hitler, a person who committed genocide for religious reasons and said that in doing so he was "fighting for the Lord's work". Yep, Hitler and I, an atheist, are essentially the same person. Good analysis.

liv4ever says

Some of these are the study of astronomy and the magnificent precision that permeates the heavens, such as the fact that galaxies are in orbit and not haphazardly strewn across the universe.

Exhibit 1:

Hubble Ultra Deep Field Image: The deepest known image of the universe, looking back at billyuns and billyuns of years (as Carl Sagan would say).

Does that look perfectly strewn or haphazard? :)

liv4ever says

Or how about the internal harmony of the Bible. How about Bible prophecy, historical accuracy and the fact that it dovetails with archaeological endeavors.

Those are very vague statements trying to assert something, but really just dispersing random thoughts.

I'm not really sure (and so are others here who are arguing against religion) how such statements really advance our knowledge of the world.

History shows that blind belief in anything takes us backward or keeps us stuck.

Here's Galileo (one of my favorite scientists):

My dear Kepler, I wish that we might laugh at the remarkable stupidity of the common herd. What do you have to say about the principal philosophers of this academy who are filled with the stubbornness of an asp and do not want to look at either the planets, the moon or the telescope, even though I have freely and deliberately offered them the opportunity a thousand times? Truly, just as the asp stops its ears, so do these philosophers shut their eyes to the light of truth.

liv4ever says

perfectly haphazard, Blondie

uomo_senza_nome showed a picture of the distribution of galaxies in the universe. Your picture is of a single galaxy. A galaxy is, by definition, a collection of stars gravitationally bound and as such those stars will always follow elliptical orbits in accordance to Kepler's laws. The structure of a galaxy is explained by the Theory of Gravity, not a god.

After two months, pretty much everything has been said on this thread. The intelligent, rational people have shown extensive evidence that explains why we know the Earth is old and our species is descendant from apes, monkeys, and other small mammals. Meanwhile, the creationists have resorted to quoting their nonsense Bible. Time for this thread to die.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/x56O4G8VsiA

Dan8267 says

Adolph was a Christian.

nope. Adolph did not follow Christ's teachings. Plus, he did not follow God's teachings. 0 for 2.