patrick.net

President Hippopotamus he'll whop the lot of us, and be done by two...

That's fine pudding pantz, but he didn't run on the Bad Ass ticket now did he?

Obama, for all of his faults, at least isn't crazy. Which is more than can be said for a lot of our politicians.

I have outlived six generations of American underclass. I cannot honestly tell you if one was better than another. It's all just a blur of wretched filth in my memory.

The GOP says

I challenge either of you to find the word Obama in my initial post or Liberal or Democrat for that matter.

Who cares what you said in the literal sense. It is quite clear who you were referring too.

Apparently all that is being asked of you is to base your attack comments on something. Is it too much trouble to back your claims up? Certainly you would not resort to baseless attacks without merit. What would be the purpose of that?

leoj707 says

Who cares what you said in the literal sense. It is quite clear who you were referring too.

Oh so we can't be objective unless you don't object?

So which is it, I'm either incoherent incapable of formulation of a complete sentence, and it is advised for everyone to steer clear of the rubbish I write. Or I'm some creative genius that write 5 paragraphs where I'm ranting about the irony of our unemployed Youth, just one faction of 100's that are out of work and on their Asses I'll add. I can do all that with out once mentioning a party or a person, and yet I'm able to elucidate my feelings enough for you to deduce that?

I'm must be more complex than I ever gave my self credit for!

And what are you the Thought Police now?

No one said Obama is blameless. We're just looking for a clear argument to reply to.

The GOP says

I can do all that with out once mentioning a party or a person, and yet I'm able to elucidate my feelings enough for you to deduce that?

Yeah, when you bookend it with phrases like:
The GOP says

How's that Change working for you Young People?

-and-

The GOP says

Chin up you Basitds, you picked this fate, be careful what you wish for.
You want change? You got it!

and then later you state:

The GOP says

If there's no Irony that the Youth won Obama the 2008 election, and now 53% of them are unemployed.

Insinuation is not all that complicated or genius, it is actually quite common in the english language.

We're just looking for a clear argument to reply to.

Not every thing is an argument. Some people hate those little things on that do hickey that comes with the thing-a-mabobbers. They like to rant about it, but are neither prepared nor willing to argue about why.

This is the internet, people used to just slowly step back and walk away when someone was on a tare they didn't share the view of. Now it's like since it's the internet, it would be a shame to let a good argument go to waste.

What people are saying here is important. Not just your agenda important or let's elect this guy or that guy important. These threads belong to the children of the children of our children's kids, the actual readers haven't even been born yet(OK Hunter plagiarism for sure, but I couldn't resist the point that it makes and the words bailed my ass out of the pointless direction I had the thread going.)

But seriously, they are the ones that will look back on these threads, and chuckle at the irony. They'll either have 20/20 on their side, and know what went down, or they'll believe those that we allow to dictate the one view of what is actually going down.
History has two sides, those that write it and then those that live it. I comment for those that read it later.

One thing for sure, they aren't going to read anything from me blowing smoke up this administrations butt. All of them from the Democrats to the Republicans are driving this country into the ground.
I'm not here to debate that with anyone, I shouldn't have to. I'm not looking for arguments or conflicts, comments are fine. Counter points even, are highly encouraging, but I'm not looking to be engaged into heated debates. This isn't the top 10 Bistro list, I post my take on news that happens though out the day.
Or comment in other threads accordingly. Always just my 2 cents.

I'm telling you how dreary shit is, and you guys retort with shit like how good at Killing his enemies Obama is. Then Disney(Yeah! The Land of Fairytale and Make-believe people!) Pattens his damn Commando force name, how fucked up is that?!?

That was a rhetorical question.

The GOP says

I challenge you list one positive thing Obama has done for the young people in this country other than saddle them with decades of debt.

A couple come immediately to mind
1. can stay on parents health insurance until 26, as well as no pre existing condition denial for underage 19(the rest of us it is 2014 before the no preexisting condition denial kicks in)
2. Took college loans away from banks and are now directly funded by Federal Gov. I believe he also made the repayments more friendly
3. Ended the war in Iraq saving many young lives and limbs

rdm says

1. can stay on parents health insurance until 26, as well as no pre existing condition denial for underage 19(the rest of us it is 2014 before the no preexisting condition denial kicks in)

Destroying thousands of years of self sufficiency and creating a latter dependency on parents, until they aged to the point that the parents them selves will be depending on a rapidly disappearing retirement. Benefits American families how?

But in reality you're just more pleased with the Health Care Hijack act than I am.

rdm says

2. Took college loans away from banks and are now directly funded by Federal Gov. I believe he also made the repayments more friendly

You think? Well I think not.

rdm says

3. Ended the war in Iraq saving many young lives and limbs

Well we were done with them. That was his task, that's not something he did in the name of saving many young lives, and tell that to the parents of those we have lost.

The GOP says

rdm says

1. can stay on parents health insurance until 26, as well as no pre existing condition denial for underage 19(the rest of us it is 2014 before the no preexisting condition denial kicks in)

Destroying thousands of years of self sufficiency and creating a latter dependency on parents, until they aged to the point that the parents them selves will be depending on a rapidly disappearing retirement. Benefits American families how?

But in reality you're just more pleased with the Health Care Hijack act than I am.

Your argument regarding the destruction thousands of years of self sufficiency and destruction of retirement savings because kids might stay on their parents insurance until 26 is just ridiculous. Regardless the question was not how you or I feel about the the health care law but how young people might see it in a positive way so as to be satisfied with"change" they helped create. Certainly better to have health insurance than not, particularly if you have a pre-existing condition that needs expensive treatment but also for preventative care

The GOP says

rdm says

2. Took college loans away from banks and are now directly funded by Federal Gov. I believe he also made the repayments more friendly

You think? Well I think not.

I think and so will anyone with a loan.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-37242434/4-big-changes-in-college-loans-start-today/

The GOP says

rdm says

3. Ended the war in Iraq saving many young lives and limbs

Well we were done with them. That was his task, that's not something he did in the name of saving many young lives, and tell that to the parents of those we have lost.

His task? WTF does that mean. You don't think saving lives was a consideration? You think McCain would have us out? You think those young solders dont think it a positive they aren't getting their balls blown off by IED's in Iraq?

rdm says

I think and so will anyone with a loan.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-505145_162-37242434/4-big-changes-in-college-loans-start-today/

Come on they played with the numbers a bit, those are still huge points and will straddle people with the same debt that people are having a hard time to pay now.

rdm says

You think McCain would have us out?

Nope but I wouldn't have blown smoke up his ass about it either.
I'd expect no more or no less out of McCain and that's the difference here. McCain was the Liberal darling, just Romney has been this time around. I don't think the Liberals expected Sarah Palin to Hijack their Political Theme Park production. And that's what I thought was sexy about it.

It was out of the GOP=DNC political machine's control.

She didn't make it past the Ministry of Propaganda and misinformation though. They got her.

Hopefully Ron Paul will break out and run Independent.

Huntington Moneyworth III, Esq says

I have outlived six generations of American underclass. I cannot honestly tell you if one was better than another. It's all just a blur of wretched filth in my memory.

You know, HM3E is the only reason I'm still reading the politics boards anymore, bless him

GOP,

Answer the question. What specifically would ABO (anyone but Obama) do, or propose to do, that makes you want to vote for him?

I understand your position to be that you wouldn't be voting FOR ABO but you would be voting against Obama.

Is that your position? You are voting against Obama regardless of who it is?

I think there is a carefully cultivated set of unspoken assumptions about Obama, blacks, welfare, liberals, job preferences, taxes, and on and on. These assumptions are cultivated by the AM radio circuit, which liberally fertilizes the soil with large quantites of manure.

But the soil itself, which is the fears and insecurities of middle American aging white working-class people, doesn't really even need the fertilizer. Those people are afraid, because their position in the US has definitely eroded, and Obama is one more symptom of that erosion. At one time, white men in particular could be pretty much assured of getting better jobs than women and blacks regardless of personal merit. That's no longer true. Even worse, the outsourcing of most of the middle American manufacturing base to China means that total number of good jobs for the not-so-educated is also falling.

So the specific reasons for the hatred of Obama actually have nothing to do with Obama himself, who talks and acts exactly like the well-connected Ivy League establishment figure that he actually is. Obama is depressingly similar to Bush, except for the little fact that he's genetically half black.

The real but unspeakable reason for hating Obama is that he makes older white middle-American working class men in particular very fearful for their future in a multiracial globalized economy which is still rapidly shifting their jobs to China. It seems wrong that a black man with a Muslim name should be sleeping in the White House. He does not visibly embody the interests of white men, as all other presidents before him did by being white and having European Christian names. At least he's male!

Anyway, you're not going to get coherent answers about Obama because the truth is embarassing.

The way to argue all this, IMHO, is to present an alternate vision of the future which can give that class of people something to hope for. Facts and reasoning come later. The first thing they want is that vision of the future, with themselves playing a starring role in it.

How about this one: We should be more like Germany, which still has a very strong manufacturing sector, excellent technical and trade schools providing a viable alternative to college, much better middle class economic security, much fairer tax rates on the rich, universal health care, much longer vacations, and more authentically representative government.

No I would love to vote for Ron Paul, but that was closed primary. Ron Paul supporters are for the most part are NPA. The GOP pulled a DNC on Ron Paul and told him not to run as an independent, because it would take away the Conservative Vote.

I'm quite content sticking it to any party, until a balance center is restored in Politics, and/or NPA free thinkers are given more voters rights, and respect. Otherwise I'm content to watch the next asshole follow the previous asshole in and out of office. The quicker the rest of America gets wise to our One party system, the sooner we can get on the road to recovery. Obama has been in office for 4 years, he doesn't benefit my agenda by serving another 4 years.

I liked McCain and Palin over Obama, because I still believe the Liberals are the most reactionary of the lot. I figured after 4 years of that pair, the Liberals would have came back with worth hooting and hollering for. But that wasn't to be.

Obama is depressingly similar to Bush, except for the little fact that he's genetically half black.

Obama wasn't the grandson of a Senator or son of a President nor was he plugged into the Texas oil money mafia.

He got into Claremont & Harvard somehow, but he made his bones from there on his talents.

As for the rest, yes, people don't really think, they feel, and then they seek information to reinforce these feelings.

For example, that we have a military empire, and that we can't afford it.

$900B/yr is in fact affordable. $8000 per household.

Just cut our per-capita health costs down to Canada's and we'd have that.

There's also the very good argument that it's more cost-effective to prevent wars than fight them from a position of non-intervention, like what happened in 1939-41.

Frankly, Ron Paul is a crank from front to back & top to bottom. Pretty much the standard issue libertarian ideologue more in love with the libertopia in his head than reality.

Both parties are run by the financial elite. There's a revolving door between Big Finance and Big Government.

It's not about Obama vs. Bush. It's about you and I against Big Finance which controls Big Government.

The problem isn't Socialism. The problem isn't Capitalism. The problem is Crony Capitalism i.e. Socialism For The Rich.

The bailouts were right out there for everyone to see. You and I didn't get any benefit from this obvious example of Socialism. The Big Capitalists did.

Worse, these Big Capitalists are bankers. They don't produce jack crap for the economy. They don't design stuff, build stuff, provide medical care, educate our children, drive trucks, or anything of the sort. They just push money around. At least the Robber Barons of the past produced steel, oil, and railroads.

To be fair to "the right", it looks like Fannie and Freddie got the biggest bailouts, not the Big Banks. At least according to the following site:

http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/list

I have no idea if that's a fair, unbiased source or not.

Cloud says

Ron Paul is the only decent man up there as far as Iam concerned.

There are people on this forum, including "liberals" who would probably agree with you.

Ron Paul has some wacky ideas. But at least he's radically questioning the status quo.

Do you two need a Napkin? I'm sure you do, after a good Liberal Mental masturbation session like that.

Yeah that's it, I'm threatened by Obama, there's just no way in hell I could possibly think he's a rotten President, and he has distinguished him self from Bush time and time again over the last 4 years, and every thing he does, is spot on, and gets right to the point and provides relief IMEDIATLY. So it's just Honkey sour grapes on my part. (No don't cum yet I'm not done). I'm threatened because Obama took my job from me and gave it to a Black person. The Member of a group that has seen Unemployment the highest than any president in the last 30 years. now at a whopping 18% in many states.

I work from home some days for two companies at the same time.
That's $100 bucks an hour. Do you really think I have personal employment axe to grind with the worst president in history because of my employment status? He just happens to be black I can't help that, I'm not going to go easy on him just because he is. And if you want to be so juvenile to perpetuate the stereo type and bigotry by throwing the race card so selfishly to lend to your argument. Then you two are more ignorant than an Bass Boat owner named Scooter with two good teeth.

It's a shame, I thought we progressed past that, but I guess not, you two are showing your true colors now.

The GOP says

I'm sure you do, after a good Liberal Mental masturbation session like that.

bgamall4 says

It seems wrong that a black man with a Muslim name should be sleeping in the White House. He does not visibly embody the interests of white men, as all other presidents before him did by being white and having European Christian names. At least he's male!

So, you didn't say if they are right. You know they are wrong, don't you Patrick? It is sick that white males would be threatened by Obama. In fact, the Republicans have done their part to send jobs offshore. And Obama will likely get more jobs back on shore than past presidents.

White men can identify with Romney? Or with Gingrich? NOT!

OK, I should have said "It seems wrong to them that a black man with a Muslim name should be sleeping in the White House." I don't have a problem with it myself.

Yes, offshoring is probably more of a Republican thing, because they are the most devout believers that a global free market is always good for Americans, even when it's obviously costing American jobs. Democrats were traditionally on the side of labor and not capital. Though of course lately things are all twisted around, with Republicans claiming to represent the common man even while exporting their jobs, and Democrats being more popular on Wall Street.

Sure, white men can identify with Romney and Gingrich, because they are white men.

Anyway, arguing on the surface level of facts and reasoning just won't get us anywhere. It's really all about the emotional subtext, the fear of eroding social status among the white middle class and how "liberals" are contributing to that by electing a black president, providing health care for poor blacks and Hispanics possibly paid for by white people, granting marriage rights to gays, who not too long ago were not merely lower status, but could be jailed.

The rent-seeking 1% absolutely loves this stuff and encourages those fears as much as possible, because it distracts the white middle class from thinking about our unfairly low tax rates on the rich.

zzyzzx,

No president has direct control of the economy. The economy is millions (billions) of people interacting and making deals with each other.

We're going to be suffering from the "hangover" of the housing bubble mania for a long time. Japan had the "lost decade" and we will too, I believe, no matter who is in office. Might Romney be better than Obama? Sure. But there's no easy way out of the mess we are in.

A lot of people don't like Obama because of "social issues" that are near and dear to "the left" like abortion, gay marriage, etc. If you look at Obama's economic record, it's not like he's some far-left socialist. There haven't been any big tax increases, not even on the "super rich".

The rent-seeking 1% absolutely loves this stuff and encourages those fears as much as possible, because it distracts the white middle class from thinking about our unfairly low tax rates on the rich.

Yep. Isn't that right, Mr. Moneyworth?

Home prices not values have been falling. And that's a good thing.

As for everything else, that was a problem under Bush. Obama just made it worse by continuing Bush's policies.

So my response is: what change? We've been living under Bush for 12 years now, and no matter who wins (cause Ron Paul ain't), we're going to be living under Bush for 4 more.

Dan8267 says

So my response is: what change? We've been living under Bush for 12 years now, and no matter who wins (cause Ron Paul ain't), we're going to be living under Bush for 4 more.

Pretty much. Hey, there's always Canada or Australia. Anybody know how to get an immigration permit?

wthrfrk80 says

Pretty much. Hey, there's always Canada or Australia. Anybody know how to get an immigration permit?

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/

The rent-seeking 1% absolutely loves this stuff and encourages those fears as much as possible, because it distracts the white middle class from thinking about our unfairly low tax rates on the rich.

Wow, here's a perfect example that just arrived in my mailbox:

"GOP targets child tax break for illegal immigrants"
http://www.federalnewsradio.com/?nid=314&sid=2739793

The tax breaks for the very rich are even less justified and, oh, a THOUSAND TIME LARGER yet curiously unmentioned by the Republican Party.

Dan8267 says

Home prices not values have been falling

Just curious--how do you make a distinction?

How do you come up with a number for the "value"?

The young airheads with tatoos, piercings, MTV and mush for brains got exactly what they deserved with Obama.
Obama is a useless clown and his economic stimulus was a waste that gave money to public sector union workers, which of course stimulates nothing, rather just puts off their eventual unemployment from falling tax revenues.
He did nothing to address the huge costs of illegal aliens and in fact wants to make them legal residents, although fewer than 20% of them have graduated high school in Mexcio. They're illiterates in two languages.
GM and Chrysler could have gone through normal legal bankruptcy which would have had no less negative effect than rewarding the UAW, stealing from the bondholders, and having Fiat end up owning Chrysler. Daimler tried to save Chrysler and decided it was a tar baby that was best left untouched.
If Obama isn't busy bowing and kowtowing to foreign despots and saudi royalty, he is calling Americans guilty for the problems of the rest of the world, even though history shows Americans were the saviors of the world at least 3 times in history.
Taking over and ruining our health care to make us all pay for those who are deadbeats at the expense of choice in our own insurance plans is a disaster that is just going to be realized next year when the whole mess starts to kick in.
Obama's a weird case, although he's not atypical for the type. He's confused about his racial identity. He was raised by an indifferent, crazy mother. He grew up in the garden spot of Indonesia with a muslim father. He split the dysfunction there and was raised by his *grandparents* instead.
He's a dilettante who has had the skids greased for him for being a mulatto and therefore his looks plays well on the liberal guilt of some people.
So, others who are 1. guilty liberals 2. non whites 3. losers looking for handouts 4. others who self-identify as "victims" (e.g. lesbian, gay, obese, addict, nuts, etc.) 5. foreigners usually voted for Obama.
It's going to be interesting to see if those among these above believe that they can do better in the future waiting for Obama to get any results from his absurd tax the rich plan to save our economy or someone who has actually had any executive experience and who won't go around attacking business, capital and success.

clambo says

He did nothing to address the huge costs of illegal aliens

But what about the GIGANTIC costs of lowering the capital gains tax to 15% while productive people have to pay 35%?

That cost alone is so much larger than the cost of illegal aliens that it's comic. Like at least a trillion dollars, with no benefit at all to investment. No one ever skipped a good investment because of their marginal tax rate.

The key is this: you don't feel personally threatened by the very rich avoiding taxes, you feel threatened by illegal aliens.

And yet the tax evasion by the rich is costing you much much more.

tatupu70 says

Dan8267 says

Home prices not values have been falling

Just curious--how do you make a distinction?

How do you come up with a number for the "value"?

The price of my belly button lint is $26 million. However, I'll let you pay only 10% down and the rest on a 30-year mortgage at 5%. If value and price are synonymous to you, this is a really good deal.

As for how I come up with a number, I'm a fan of the Case-Shiller Index.

Dan8267 says

The price of my belly button lint is $26 million. However, I'll let you pay only 10% down and the rest on a 30-year mortgage at 5%. If value and price are synonymous to you, this is a really good deal.
As for how I come up with a number, I'm a fan of the Case-Shiller Index

I'll pass on the belly button lint.

The Case Shiller is a nice overview of housing prices in general, but how in the world can you use it to determine the "value" of an individual house?

The value of a home is what people are willing to pay for it.

So, selling price, not asking price.

It's certainly possible for homes to be over valued though. That's still the case in many parts of the world.

But lots of things are over valued.

Kevin says

The value of a home is what people are willing to pay for it.

That's not true!

Most people are willing to pay whatever the banks are willing to lend them. So prices are determined by lending.

Whether that price is fair or not depends on the cost of your alternative, renting. How much it would cost you to rent the same thing for the same time period determines the fair vlue. Not lending.