patrick.net

Bap33 says

leoj707 says

While I don't totally agree with them, they are not totally wrong. Would Trayvon have been killed if he was white? No, so it is understandable that people have been upset about the race issue.

How - in the world - can you make such a statement?? That is nonsense.

Are you saying that you feel Trayvon would have been just as dead if he were white?

leoj707 says

The problem is that Zimmerman instigated something bad happening. I don't believe his story for all the reasons laid out in this thread.

I was not sure about this point until I read what Martin's GF said and his mom. Then I looked at the map to see where each location was. You know, "Martin was here, went there, and was coming back here." Also, "Zim was here, called, spoke to 911 while walking from here to here, and shot Martin here." Along with the neighbors who called 911 and are on tape. Where they are in the layout of things.

I did it on google earth. After I laid it out, and I happen to think it shows why the Martin camp has changed to, "he should be allowed to walk anywhere he wants" from "he was just walking from the store". But, I do not have all the evidence. The last item I need to see is the phone log from Trevon if it has GPS. That would be the only way to patch the holes in the story the GF and Martin camp gave about what has up to. But, it may be just like the GF and Martin family said it was. That kind of info would be interesting. But, as soon as Martin attacked Zim he was wrong. The same freedom that allows Martin to be anywhere he wishes applies to Zim too.

leoj707 says

Bap33 says

leoj707 says

While I don't totally agree with them, they are not totally wrong. Would Trayvon have been killed if he was white? No, so it is understandable that people have been upset about the race issue.

How - in the world - can you make such a statement?? That is nonsense.

Are you saying that you feel Trayvon would have been just as dead if he were white?

I am saying you can not say the only reason the kid was shot was becasue he was black, and you can not say a white kid in the same situation would not have been shot. A shot white kid would be just as dead - obviously.

leoj707 says

If Trayvon was a white kid shot in the exact same circumstance I doubt you would have the same stance on this issue.

nope. You would be wrong. You see, I understand that a weapon evens the ability to inflict harm, but also evens self defense. The best way to avoid "Bully makes rules" is to have a great equalizer. If I were to patrol a rough neighborhood I would do so with a weapon at the ready. Rough neighborhoods have no color boundry.

You would be hard pressed to find a more racist group of people on this planet than the ones that rioted in L.A. becasue the Rodney King cops did not get found guilty. They were convicted, tried, and found not quilty .. and so a bunch of racists rioted. This issue may be the same thing unless the racebaitors are able to force the law to be unjust. Anything based on race is friggin stupid.

Bap33 says

Why not have the bad guys be held responsible for making the other citizens so angry and afraid that the innocent people that look like the bad guys are looked at as badguys.

Christ, Bap do you even realize how racist this sounds?

You realize the only thing that made Trayvon look like a "bad guy" was the color of his skin. Because Trayvon "looked bad" somehow makes it OK for Zimmerman to stalk and kill him?

I am all for holding actual bad guys accountable, but I also think that we should hold accountable people who kill the innocent even if they think they were killing a bad guy. That in my book makes them a bad guy.

leoj707 says

Spike Lee made a stupid mistake, but did the right thing...

attempted murder 1 is a bit more than a mistake in my world. He should be tried and fried. He used his notariaty to try expose innocent people to murdering vigilaties. He did not worry about law, or truth. He just wanted white folks dead. He is a racist, and now an attempted murderer.

Bap33 says

After I laid it out, and I happen to think it shows why the Martin camp has changed to, "he should be allowed to walk anywhere he wants" from "he was just walking from the store". But, I do not have all the evidence.

Yes, he should. Also, he has a history of long talks on the phone with his girl friend.

I walk a lot and have been know to circle around the neighborhood while on the phone.

Is it unreasonable to think that he was taking the "long way home" so he could have an extended conversation in the relative privacy of outdoors?

Bap33 says

leoj707 says

Spike Lee made a stupid mistake, but did the right thing...

attempted murder 1 is a bit more than a mistake in my world. He should be tried and fried. He used his notariaty to try expose innocent people to murdering vigilaties. He did not worry about law, or truth. He just wanted white folks dead. He is a racist, and now an attempted murderer.

Umm.. just about everything you wrote here is wrong.

If he all he wanted was white folks dead why did he put the white family up in a hotel?

leoj707 says

Bap33 says

Why not have the bad guys be held responsible for making the other citizens so angry and afraid that the innocent people that look like the bad guys are looked at as badguys.

Christ, Bap do you even realize how racist this sounds?

You realize the only thing that made Trayvon look like a "bad guy" was the color of his skin. Because Trayvon "looked bad" somehow makes it OK for Zimmerman to stalk and kill him?

I am all for holding actual bad guys accountable, but I also think that we should hold accountable people who kill the innocent even if they think they were killing a bad guy. That in my book makes them a bad guy.

I'm not sure how to remove the skin color from the description of the local bad guys. Like, when you are asked to describe a suspect that ran off you would have to mention a skin color ... right? But, I'm willing to listen to the reason behind your point.

leoj707 says

Bap33 says

leoj707 says

Spike Lee made a stupid mistake, but did the right thing...

attempted murder 1 is a bit more than a mistake in my world. He should be tried and fried. He used his notariaty to try expose innocent people to murdering vigilaties. He did not worry about law, or truth. He just wanted white folks dead. He is a racist, and now an attempted murderer.

Umm.. just about everything you wrote here is wrong.

If he all he wanted was white folks dead why did he put the white family up in a hotel?

he wanted the "other" white folks dead. And he has not came out to tell the groups of blacks beating up whites to stop it. He's a racist

leoj707 says

I am all for holding actual bad guys accountable, but I also think that we should hold accountable people who kill the innocent even if they think they were killing a bad guy. That in my book makes them a bad guy.

correct. The innocent part goes away when Martin attacks Zim.

Bap33 says

But, when your wife is walking out to her car at the mall, or going to the ATM, or home alone,,,, you are not worried about a Zim type of citizen hurting her or robbing her. So, while an armed Zim is an issue for the sect of the population that outwardly matched the sect that causes most of the fear, hurt, and harm to a citizen group in an area, an armed Zim would be no problem for you, me, or ours.

Yes, for myself, my wife and my kids I worry about armed Zimmermans.

Unstable aggressive people prone to violence worry me. They worry me even more when they are carrying a gun. Carrying a gun emboldens them and makes it much more likely that they will bully and confront others.

Even if my wife and I manage to stay out of there way someone who provokes gun battles can cause stray bullets to fly around a neighborhood.

Bap33 says

leoj707 says

I am all for holding actual bad guys accountable, but I also think that we should hold accountable people who kill the innocent even if they think they were killing a bad guy. That in my book makes them a bad guy.

correct. The innocent part goes away when Martin attacks Zim.

Yes, IF that is what happened. We have no reason to believe things went down the way Zimmerman says they did. We do have reason to believe that they did not.

leoj707 says

Bap33 says

After I laid it out, and I happen to think it shows why the Martin camp has changed to, "he should be allowed to walk anywhere he wants" from "he was just walking from the store". But, I do not have all the evidence.

Yes, he should. Also, he has a history of long talks on the phone with his girl friend.

I walk a lot and have been know to circle around the neighborhood while on the phone.

Is it unreasonable to think that he was taking the "long way home" so he could have an extended conversation in the relative privacy of outdoors?

yep, me too. But, given the crime level in that area leading up to this, and what the people have seen the bad guys doing here and there ... it may have been a bad time to walk around and chance being mistaken for a bad guy. For example, when Hells Angles are causing trouble I do not dress like one when I ride down the street. It's just a bad idea, and it sucks that the bad guys mess it up for everyone else. (I used the biker idea to remove skin color and other outward stuff due to helmets covering that up (most times))

leoj707 says

Unstable aggressive people prone to violence worry me. They worry me even more when they are carrying a gun. Carrying a gun emboldens them and makes it much more likely that they will bully and confront others.

we have differing views of who Zim really is. Fair enough.

Bap33 says

But, given the crime level in that area leading up to this, and what the people have seen the bad guys doing here and there ... it may have been a bad time to walk around and chance being mistaken for a bad guy.

So basically you are advising blacks to not walk around being black in that area.

Something you may enjoy:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-march-26-2012/c-n-i---cable-news-investigators---hoodie-threat

Bap33 says

we have differing views of who Zim really is. Fair enough.

Fair enough.

Bap33 says

cmon dude, use your advanced reading skills!

I did read it (or skim it), but I see you're right.

Now I understand Zimmerman's extreme stupidity better. One time he saw a suspicious guy, who actually much later did turn out to be a burgler. So this time he saw a suspicious guy (ie black teenager), and he assumed he was right again, as I'm sure you would.

I still say, just how dumb do you have to be to confuse a 1/50 chance or a 1/20 chance with certainty ?

And it's funny Bap reading your thoughts such as:

Bap33 says

So, while an armed Zim is an issue for the sect of the population that outwardly matched the sect that causes most of the fear, hurt, and harm to a citizen group in an area, an armed Zim would be no problem for you, me, or ours. Why not have the bad guys be held responsible for making the other citizens so angry and afraid that the innocent people that look like the bad guys are looked at as badguys.

I've lived in urban areas a good part of my life where half the people look like Martin or possibly scarier to a sheltered girly man like you or zimmerman, and I don't walk in fear or make retarded assumptions.

lol ... replaced ideas with personal attacks?? Are you channeling Clarence?? lol

The best defense is what? Right.

Have you even considered, what if Zim was right? but was not ready to defend his life? yea, some of us retards do not intend to be a victim in Lord Barry's Libtopia.

"girly man" ... lmao

leoj707 says

Bap33 says

But, given the crime level in that area leading up to this, and what the people have seen the bad guys doing here and there ... it may have been a bad time to walk around and chance being mistaken for a bad guy.

So basically you are advising blacks to not walk around being black in that area.

Something you may enjoy:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-march-26-2012/c-n-i---cable-news-investigators---hoodie-threat

not exactly .... but ..... people dress to expess, and that is just how life works. Otherwise, folks would go to job interviews in shorts and T-shirts, with messed hair and B.O. Why dont they?? Because, how you look/dress/present yourself matters, and effects how other approach you and what they expect. Agree?

I have some "Far Side" comic strip books, and one cartoon shows a blow fish, a porkypine, and a dude with a crazy look and a gun, (and some other stuff I cant recall) and the caption is, "How nature says Do Not Touch". Ever seen that one?

Bap33 says

Have you even considered, what if Zim was right? but was not ready to defend his life?

Yeah, that is the position that Trayvon was probably in. Have you considered that?

Bap33 says

not exactly .... but ..... people dress to expess

Yeah, but still pretty funny.

Have a good weekend.

leoj707 says

Bap33 says

Have you even considered, what if Zim was right? but was not ready to defend his life?

Yeah, that is the position that Trayvon was probably in. Have you considered that?

personal life history is shaping my instincts about this part ... just going with my gut ... and my gut sure could be wrong ... for the first time ever. It's due.

you have a great weekend

Bap33 says

lol ... replaced ideas with personal attacks?? Are you channeling Clarence?? lol

The best defense is what? Right.

Okay here is the same thing without the colorful adjectives, and newsflash, the idea I am trying to communicate was there all the same.

I've lived in urban areas a good part of my life where half the people look like Martin or possibly scarier to a sheltered inexperienced guys like you or zimmerman, and I don't walk in fear or make absurdly prejudiced assumptions.

Bap33 says

"girly man" ... lmao

Sorry if this hurt your feelings. But the underlying issue here is fear.

one could say an ignorance to danger for one person might seem like a lack of fear to another person. I personally take the position of hope for great but be ready for crap.

I lived in Seaside for 10 years. It was 70% black folks before Fort Ord closed. Extreem crime. I was right in the thick of it. Your own "absurdly prejudiced assumptions" have been dismantled.

You mention someone "looking scarier" than Martin. I don't know what scary people look like. Sounds like a fear trigger.

"Scary" vs "Bad guy" or whatever your term was.

The fact is even if Zimmerman was a decent guy in many ways, and with what might be argued to be good reason to falsely judge Martin. He fucked up big time, in a way that is not forgivable.

I don't mean that Jesus can't forgive him. I mean he is probably guilty of at least manslaughter and probably desrves to do some serious time.

Bap33 says

I don't know what scary people look like. Sounds like a fear trigger.

earlier

Bap33 says

Why not have the bad guys be held responsible for making the other citizens so angry and afraid that the innocent people that look like the bad guys are looked at as badguys.

I don't fear bad guys. In the right situations, bad guys fear me. Bet that.

marcus says

I mean he is probably guilty of at least manslaughter and probably desrves to do some serious time.

It is silly to send anyone to prison or jail that is not a threat to society, or needs to be protected from society. For example, Bernie Made-off would be killed if not in prison. The five monsters in my earlier example are a denger to the general public. Zim is not a danger to anyone that is not fighting with him. Your words, "unforgivible" .... those do not fit the rest of your on-line persona that I have experienced.

Bap33 says

those do not fit the rest of your on-line persona that I have experienced.

It's not about meaness or vindictiveness.

Sometimes as a teacher I am in a position where I have to discipline a student. It takes time away from what I want to be doing, and it sometimes takes a student who most needs to be in class, out of the class. While I deeply wish not to spend the time on that, or cause that student the harm of missing the lesson, I do it for one reason only. That is to retain order, and so that the class knows there are consequences to not following rules.

It's the same thing here. There are a few different reasons why I think Zimmerman will probably need to pay some serious prison time, but the biggest reason is the message that it sends to everyone which is, ...what he did was not okay.

(maybe we can avoid speculating on wild and unlikely scenarios where it would have been okay. IF that changes as the truth hopefully becomes more clear, then all bets are off. Remember we know about Zimmerman's past emotional issues (anger/temper) and I think we know that it was not Zimmerman's voice begging for help right before the shooting. MArtin kicking Zimmerman's ass before that, if he did, may be irrelevant. In any case, my point is that if it turns out to be anything close to what we know now - then jail time and at least manslaughter will be justice)

your example is EXACTLY why I like the death penalty.... and not just the death penalty, but public hanging. Public hanging for all murder 1, any gang activity, drug sales, kidnapping, and pedifile crimes. Public Hanging -- in the same way the discipline in the classroom removes the problem, plus sends a message to others - will reduce crime.

marcus, we agree 100% on the importance of discipline. I spank my kids so their teacher need only say once, "sit down, or a note goes home." So far, no notes have came home. Each open house, each year, each teacher is told by me - face to face - "You can spank them if you want, and I suggest and support it, but if you would rather me spank them, just call me and I'll whip them in front of the entire class. They understand crime and punishment." Some teachers look queasy, some grin, but none have called me yet, nor had to discipline my child with detention or some other silly thing.

marcus says

maybe we can avoid speculating on wild and unlikely scenarios where it would have been okay. IF that changes as the truth hopefully becomes more clear, then all bets are off. Remember we know about Zimmerman's past emotional issues (anger/temper) and I think we know that it was not Zimmerman's voice begging for help right before the shooting. MArtin's kicking Zimmerman's ass before that, if he did, may be irrelevant. In any case, my point is that if it turns out to be anything close to what we know now - then jail time and at least manslaughter will be justice)

my guess ... Martin is beating up Zim, Zim pulled gun to stop the beating, Martin tried to grab gun that was pointed at him (I think that is why mom says it was not on purpose) - that is why shot is in chest. Just my gut guess.

The whitness in the upper window heard it and seen it go down. He says Zim was screaming for help. The trouble is, he was white, so his teatimony will be poopooed by the racebaitor (I know, wrong word, but whatever) media and the Sharpten types.

One thing, lets look at that whole "screaming for help" thing. You do notice that NOBODY just ran out to start helping .. right? And why might that be?? Because they did not feel safe, and were probably unarmed. An armed populous can run out and help when that request is made. If the entire area were armed, a scream for help would have resulted in help .. for Zim or for Martin .. and that matters. People having to live so afraid of going outside to answer a scream for help is how people are raped and people are murdered and attacked by dogs. The 2nd Ammendment is there for a reason. One reason being a city may not have the funds to keep a cop on every block.

I said, let's not speculate. But if you insist.

my guess...is way different. But it's a number of possibilities of of what happened between Zimmerman's pursuit of a kid who he had no business pursuing and Martin kicking his ass, that is, if he did. MY best guess is one of two reasons.

Either he was responding to Zimmerman's trying to detain him. Or it might have been simply fear, "who is this asshole that's stalking me."

But I see MArtin trying to leave again after kicking Zimmerman's ass, and then Zimmerman getting up and in a rage pulling out his gun, at which point Martin started begging for his life, because he knew how pissed off Zimmerman was at that point.(remember Zimmerman's known rage issues)

WE just don't know. But your assumption suggests that Martin was in the process of trying to kill Zimmermnan. A huge leap in my view.

We also understand that no matter what, Zimmerman would feel that he needed to claim that Martin was trying to kill him. This is obvious. Everyone with an ounce of intelligence knows that Zimmerman would say that. His saying that his life was at risk is totally irrelevant.

He's not going to say, "oh my God, what have I done, I just shot a guy who was just trying to get away from me. I'm fucked and going to go to prison for a very long time !!"

Ask yourself, assuming total objectivity. What's more likely ? That Martin was trying to kill Zimmerman and Zimmerman needed to shoot Martin to prevent that from happening ?

OR after shooting an unarmed teen, Zimmerman claimed his life was in danger to justify what he had done?

Show me you can be honest Bap. I'm not asking you what you wish to be true. Just what's more likely?

(By the way, this question ignores another big question which is why is Zimmerman even pursuing MArtin in the first place. Obviously from Martin's point of view, he did not represent law enforcement - he only represented a danger to him.)

http://news.discovery.com/tech/george-zimmerman-voice-recognition-120404.html

The issue I pointed to about the lack of response from folks who heard the screams ..... ponder that just a bit more ..... the people sitting in their homes were afraid to go help .... Zim was outside. If a person inside a house, that is not doing anything at all, can be afraid to open their door to see who needs help, then a guy in a scuffle SHOULD be afraid of being beat to death. The thing is, all fights are to the death if one of the people in the fight does not stop.

In my opinion, Zim, and any person on patrol, has need to be prepaired to defend themselves and others from harm. I say this because some bad guys are not happy to just stop, avoid the patrolman, and go do their stuff elsewhere. Some bad guys know that if they scare the partrolman away, then their is less effort needed to do crime. So, some bad guys go after the patrolmen. Smart patrolmen are ready for such things. Stupid patrolmen are dead.

To the point you make, sure, Zim could have jumped up pissed from having been attacked for doing what he felt was the right thing. That sure could happen. Now, will you stop suggesting that race had anything more to do with this than the fact that most of the bad guys in that area were young black men? You are suggesting Zim seen red, I say "could be", but when you say he seen black, I say "nope".

Bap33 says

In my opinion, Zim, and any person on patrol, has need to be prepaired to defend themselves and others from harm.

We're going in circles. He was the watch captain not a patrol oficer.

Bap33 says

stop suggesting that race had anything more to do with this than the fact that most of the bad guys in that area were young black men?

Even if that's true, there is some simple logic that apparently you and ZImmerman have a lot of trouble with. Let's assume most of the bad guys in the area are black teens, unlikely, but let's assume that.

What kind of retard thinks therefore most of the black teens are bad guys ?

Zimmerman clearly stated in one of the conversations with the dispatcher - “these assholes always get away with it."

He already had him pegged as guilty.

As I said initially Bap, your well known race issues and your defensiveness about guns are two reasons you should have stayed out of this thread.

marcus says

As I said initially Bap, your well known race issues and your defensiveness about guns are two reasons you should have stayed out of this thread.

and your inability to see truth should hinder your willingness to opine also, my good man.

no worries, have a good Sunday evening.

http://www.youtube.com/v/LONUecnsMb8&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3

Here is an interesting opinion, and he's probably right about black on black murder. You decide.

Excellant share Honest Abe.

lol .... that dude and me, we are on the same page. I knew the world was not all crazy!! America may be just fine after all. I wonder how Clarence feels about that video.... no I dont really.

Bap:

You should really think it through next time before you go off into another rage and hurt your kids. If you have problems controlling your temper, you should look into counseling.

I'm not sure if you realize this, but physically and mentally abusing defenseless children is not taken as lightly these days as it was four or five decades ago.