patrick.net

Bap33 says

You are suggesting Zim seen red, I say "could be", but when you say he seen black, I say "nope".

Of course he was seeing black. If Trayvon was non-black he would still be alive.

Zimmerman targeted Trayvon because of his perception that...
Bap33 says

most of the bad guys in that area were young black men?

Bap33 says

Public Hanging -- in the same way the discipline in the classroom removes the problem, plus sends a message to others - will reduce crime.

No, execution public or otherwise has been found to not be much of a deterrent to others committing the same crime(s). Well, except for the one executed, but life in prison works just as well to deter re-offenders.

The problem with your comparison is that in the classroom the offense is clear to everyone in the room; the offender expects to get caught, is daring the teacher to do something about it. Non-action by the teacher just makes things worse. This is scenario is not at all like a criminal plotting murder.

The majority of people who commit murder don't think that they are going to get caught, so any penalty does not factor into their thinking. If getting caught was assured -- as it is in the classroom -- then life in prison and the death penalty are equally deterrent.

For certain crimes -- my list is a little more abbreviated than yours -- I am not morally opposed to the death penalty. I am however fiscally opposed to it. The cost of putting people to death is many times greater than putting them in prison for life. Yes, yes... I already hear the cries if kill people faster with fewer appeals, but that would mean killing more innocent people. Not worth it to me with life in prison has the same effect.

If anyone is worrying about curbing government spending doing away with the death penalty should be a slam dunk.

Bap33 says

Public hanging for...drug sales

Well, I almost agree with you.
http://www.Fb3nicduLfM

Bap33 says

It is silly to send anyone to prison or jail that is not a threat to society, or needs to be protected from society.

I agree, we way over imprison in the US. Thank you, privatized for profit prisons!

Bap33 says

For example, Bernie Made-off would be killed if not in prison. The five monsters in my earlier example are a denger to the general public.

Agreed, but I think that Bernie may still be threat to people life savings if he was let out.

Bap33 says

Zim is not a danger to anyone that is not fighting with him.

And... Zimmerman has an aggressive personality with a temper so I it seems that anyone who pisses him of -- or he finds suspicious -- could find themselves screaming for help as Zimmerman starts fighting with them.

I know we disagree on the fundamentals of Zimmerman's personality, but we will see how the trial turns out. If he gets prison time I think that society will be safer without him.

moldhaven says

You should really think it through next time before you go off into another rage and hurt your kids. If you have problems controlling your temper, you should look into counseling.

Bap does not understand that spanking is ineffective and actually counter productive to the lessons that you want a child to learn. It can have a profoundly negative impact on the child's development and on the adults relationship with the child. A while back we discussed it at length.

However, to be fair -- if I am remembering correctly -- Bap has not spanked his children very often and I don't think he is a "rage" spanker.

moldhaven says

Bap:

You should really think it through next time before you go off into another rage and hurt your kids. If you have problems controlling your temper, you should look into counseling.

I'm not sure if you realize this, but physically and mentally abusing defenseless children is not taken as lightly these days as it was four or five decades ago.

lol .... undisciplined people are a scrooge to society.
Funny, the pro-baby-murder crowd does not like the idea of spanking a bratty 2 year old or a 7 year old liar ?? how weird is that?

Only weird-o hippies, single parents, and non-parents have an issue with kids getting spanked as needed. Go watch some Tyler Perry for good life lessons!! (no really, they are great shows and right)

Bap33 says

Funny, the pro-baby-murder crowd does not like the idea of spanking a bratty 2 year old or a 7 year old liar ?? how weird is that?

Abortion has absolutely nothing to do with the issue on spanking.

Bap33 says

Only weird-o hippies, single parents, and non-parents have an issue with kids getting spanked as needed.

You forgot to add people who have the critical thinking skills to evaluate the decades of research that has been done on spanking.

Funny you mention lying because numerous studies have proven that spanking actually makes children into better and more frequent liars. Don't take my word for it. If you really care about your kids you should at least look into it.

lol .. yea boy howdy .. kids these days are just born acting right. lol. Mine shall be spanked as needed, same as kids needing to serve detention when needed, or gangsters go to prison when needed, or murdering thugs hang when needed.

Bap33 says

Mine shall be spanked as needed

Bap, I know that as a parent it is difficult to accept that one has done something that is detrimental to their child(ren). People can get very invested in parenting techniques because they don't want them to be wrong; they don't want to accept that they have subjected their child to years -- or even moments -- of an environment that is detrimental to the child's well being.

Sure, some people genuinely don't really care how their children turnout, in fact some want to see their children fail. I don't think that you are this kind of parent. While I disagree with you on just about everything, I think that you do want your children to live happy lives and be better off than you.

This issues is different than climate change, economics, religion, politics, etc. This is not about your ego or what "team" is right, but it is about your child's future -- who they become and your relationship with them. As a parent you know that you need to check your ego at the door and do what is best for your kids. You owe it to them to open your mind and do a little research. I know that it might mean a little bit of time away from theBlaze.com, but see if you can't improve your parenting tool box and perhaps reconsider hitting and humiliation as punishment tools.

lmao .. ok Dr. Phil.

The biggest hurdle my kids face at this time is the effects of the invasion. After they get past that, it's all gravy.

Bap33 says

lmao .. ok Dr. Phil.

Yes, yes, laugh at me all you want, but open your mind and look at the research.

Bap33 says

The biggest hurdle my kids face at this time is the effects of the invasion. After they get past that, it's all gravy.

I am not sure what "invasion" you are talking about, but I am assuming that it has something to do with a communist conspiracy to introduced a foreign substance is into our precious bodily fluids.

Conspiracy or not there is no happily ever after; no time when life is forever-after all gravy. There are always hurdles to face. Yes, for most being spanked as we are raised is not the biggest of the hurdles. However, the fallout from spanking can often make it more difficult for one to clear the hurdles that life puts in front of us.

reality is not the best friend of liberal ideals, is it?

"fallout from spanking" LMAO .. exaggerate much??... you would be funny, if it wasn't so true that so many leftists/liberal/progressives really do feel like you do. I did use "feel", and not "think", on purpose. "Think" is not the order of the day for that crowd.

lmao ... fallout ... what a hoot!!

Bap33 says

lmao ... fallout ... what a hoot!!

Ha, ha... yeah I guess it is pretty funny! LOL!

It is so funny that in your state of willful ignorance you are choosing to increase your children's chances of:
• Increased aggression
• Marital aggression in adulthood
• Sexual dysfunction
• Defiance to authority
• Easily frustrated
• Temper tantrums
• Difficulties with delayed gratification
• Inhibits learning
• Instills fear rather than understanding
• Depression
• Substance abuse
• Violent crimes
• Reduced empathy
• Increased level of anxiety
• Alienation from parent
• Lower IQ

Ah, ha yeah... "fallout" was a pretty silly way of putting it!

ROTGLMAO!

*whipes tears from eyes* ... whew... you funny Bap.

So, funny that you are using your truthiness skills to actually make you children's lives more difficult! This in not just some philosophical discussion about politics, economics, etc. You are actually hurting someone you purport to love! Oh, Bap... Bap... Bap... you is funny...

Thanks for the yucks!

you betcha Dr. Phil! Happy head shrinking!

Zim was attacked. Racebaiters suck.

Bap33 says

Zim was attacked.

Still not clear who the "attacker" was, but yes Zimmerman does appear to have gotten a little bit of a beating.

We also know that regardless of who the initial "attacker" was Martin was doing nothing criminal and his death was completely avoidable.

Bap33 says

Racebaiters suck.

Yes, they. However, in this situation as new facts are coming out it is seeming like the race-baiters were correct. Zimmerman seems to have been a very confrontational person, and has a history of harassing people because of their race.

That said I am glad it is in trial, and at this point gloating is pointless as we still don't have all the facts and do not know what the result of the trial will be.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/cops-witnesses-back-george-zimmermans-version/story?id=16371852

It looks like the facts are coming in to support Zimmerman. BTW, I don't think there is a law against being confrontational. If there was, there would be a lot more ethnic people in jail.

The biggest race baiters in the country are The Reverend, Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton and B.H. Obama.

Honest Abe says

It looks like the facts are coming in to support Zimmerman.

Perhaps, but not everything coming out makes his case look better.

Honest Abe says

BTW, I don't think there is a law against being confrontational.

I don't think anyone has stated this. If there was Zimmerman would have been locked up a long time ago.

Honest Abe says

race baiters

leoj707 says

in this situation as new facts are coming out it is seeming like the race-baiters were correct. Zimmerman seems to have been a very confrontational person, and has a history of harassing people because of their race.

leoj707 says

and has a history of harassing people because of their race.

that is the only thing you said that I disagree with.

As for being "confrontational" ... is it not kinda par for the course that a person with the guts to put themselves in harms way for the good of their neighbors may need to have the balls to "confront" a possible bad guy?

And, as soon as Martin stuck Zim he was commiting a crime. Even if he was not part of the proweling thugs in the area that had been committing the crimes in the area, he did commit a crime when he struck Zim. He also matched the discription of the bad guys in the area. And, my personal favorite, Martin had dope in his blood, Zim did not.

I would rather live in an area full of Zims, vs an area full of 17 year old males on drugs. That is my personal view.

Bap33 says

leoj707 says

and has a history of harassing people because of their race.

that is the only thing you said that I disagree with.

?...I think that it has been made pretty clear now that Zimmerman did in fact use race as a basis for harassing/bullying people.

"...a former co-worker of Zimmerman's says Zimmerman made him the butt of a long-running office joke, ridiculing his Middle Eastern accent and bullying him in what the witness described as a juvenile but infuriating effort to fit in with other workers."
http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/18/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1

And based on what has been coming out this was not an isolated incident.

Bap33 says

As for being "confrontational" ... is it not kinda par for the course that a person with the guts to put themselves in harms way for the good of their neighbors may need to have the balls to "confront" a possible bad guy?

No it is not par for the course. One can "confront" when necessary and yet not be a "confrontational person". Zimmerman has a history of hostility/confrontation and this character trait is only being affirmed by the new information coming out. I have known and dealt with this kind of person and generally try to avoid them when I can (which apparently someone does in Zimmerman's case). I would much rather live next to a pot-head than a confrontational asshole and I have had the pleasure of living next to both.

Bap33 says

And, as soon as Martin stuck Zim he was commiting a crime.

Only if Martin initiated the physical confrontation first. This we may never know.

Bap33 says

And, my personal favorite, Martin had dope in his blood, Zim did not.

You are of course aware that there were only trace amounts of THC in Martins blood, right? It is unlikely that he was under the influence at the time he was killed. Also, we don't know what Zimmerman had in his blood at the time. For all we know he could have been up to his eyeballs in meth. Is there some drug test taken by Zimmerman that I am unaware of?

For the record as much of a scum bag Zimmerman is appearing to be I would rather live next to him than a meth-head.

Also, if Martin had something in his blood other than THC -- say meth, crack, coke or even alcohol -- it would be much easier for me to by the aggressive Martin story. The side effect of pot is not an aggressive attitude.

the effects of cronic drug abuse is unnatural fear and a queer view of reality. Paranoid.

why believe a "former co-worker" story? What system did you use to weight the value of some off-handed comment by a possible opritunist, or fibber? Fair question?

I don't believe any Sanford police and family doctor reports.
They try to cover up now.

Exactly. DO NOT COME TO FLORIDA.
We dont want you

Bap33 says

why believe a "former co-worker" story? What system did you use to weight the value of some off-handed comment by a possible opritunist, or fibber? Fair question?

Yes, a fair question. Because it is consistent with Zimmerman's behavior reported by other people. I find it unlikely that Zimmerman is the victim of a vast conspiracy involving many ex-coworkers and neighbors. Also, in this incidence there was a complaint filed against Zimmerman.

A complaint can be filed be anyone, at any time, for any reason or no reason.

Zim shared his home and dinner table with all people of all ethnic make-up, and was a person of color himself. He cant be held to any different race based action than the common negro vs negro crime that goes on.

leo,
Do you feel the mass media (except Fox) has been fair and balanced in their reporting, or has there been an obvious tactic in place to have Zim and this issue fit some type profile? If you see some type of profile in play, what is it and why?

Bap33 says

A complaint can be filed be anyone, at any time, for any reason or no reason.

Yes, and when numerous unassociated people are making the same comments a pattern emerges.

Bap33 says

Zim shared his home and dinner table with all people of all ethnic make-up, and was a person of color himself.

So, is your argument that because of this background it is OK for him to harass, bully and profile others -- not in his immediate circle -- because of their race?

Bap33 says

He cant be held to any different race based action than the common negro vs negro crime that goes on.

Sure he can, this was not a "negro vs negro" crime. Are you implying that all "coloreds" are the same? If Trayvon was white or Hispanic he would be alive today.

Bap33 says

Do you feel the mass media (except Fox) has been fair and balanced in their reporting,

I have not been watching the FOX "news" coverage on this case, but they are the least "fair and balanced" major media source in the US. World wide their bias and high level of propaganda is rivaled only by Murdoch's other news holdings and perhaps the State Chinese news service.

Based on the penchant for making up facts and blatant lies I feel safe in the assumption that whatever Zimmerman profile they have been spoon feeding you is totally incorrect.

I was not referencing Fox. My question about your opinion of media coverage said to exclude Fox, and use just the others and what they have done on this case thus far. Maybe I wrote it where it was hard to follow. I was hoping for your opinion of the media coverage and actions thus far on this matter ... but was planning to avoid any input Fox may have had so as to avoid Fox being some type of focus. Do you see my question now if you re-read it?

Zim's bloodline and life history do not indicate a typical racist, was my point of his family life. Your assertian that Martin would still be alive if he were not negro is valid. But, not for the reasons that you think. If he were not negro he would possibly be less likely to: be on drugs, be dressed like the local thugs, be a drop-out, be prowling around in the dark, be taking an agressive action against Zim, and be mistaken for a local bad guy. He would also be less likely to go to prison, father a child out of wedlock, and many other things. But a white/brown/yellow/or green man that attacked Zim would be dead to.

The media coverage thus far has presented items both for an against Zimmerman. Without access to the same information that the prosecutor, lawyers, judge and ultimately the jury will have it is impossible for either of us to say just how "fair and balanced" the coverage has been. However, I don't think that the cop at the scene that wanted to arrest Zimmerman for manslaughter or the interviews of people who knew Zimmerman are part of a vast conspiracy.

Bap33 says

Zim's bloodline and life history do not indicate a typical racist, was my point of his family life

Correct, often people who are exposed to diversity will tend to not be racists, often not always.

Bap33 says

If he were not negro he would possibly be less likely to: be on drugs, be dressed like the local thugs, be a drop-out, be prowling around in the dark, be taking an agressive action against Zim, and be mistaken for a local bad guy. He would also be less likely to go to prison, father a child out of wedlock, and many other things. But a white/brown/yellow/or green man that attacked Zim would be dead to.

Martin was an individual not a statistic and I am sure you are aware of the issues that arise when trying to apply statistics to individuals.

We do not know that Martin was the aggressor. George "These assholes always get away" Zimmerman could have just as easily -- or perhaps easier -- laid hands on Martin first.

We do know now for sure (from Zimmerman and Martin's girl friend) that Martin -- who was doing nothing criminal -- was trying to evade Zimmerman and avoid a confrontation, but Zimmerman still caught up to him (despite instruction not to).

One of these people did try to defend themselves from an aggressor. The question is who?

Do you really not take into account -- seemingly at all -- Zimmerman's violent, aggressive and confrontational history? A history and personality that is only becoming more reinforced as more acquaintances of Zimmerman's are interviewed? Yet apply every stereotype and statistic of a black teenager to Martin?

@Bap,

Certainly we can agree that a fight did breakout between Martin and Zimmerman.

Do you think that it might be possible that Zimmerman started the fight?

leoj707 says

Do you really not take into account -- seemingly at all -- Zimmerman's violent, aggressive and confrontational history?

sure, I see this, but I am of the opinion that America's view of manly behavior has been twisted by the PC police. There are folks that do not want boys playing tackle football at recess in 3rd grade. There are folks like me that EXPECT little boys to run and tackle and fight a little bit. There are folks that do not want score to be kept in little leauge, There are folks like me that keep score, no matter what, and so do my kids. I think there are folks that are afraid of what rugged individualism stands for in America ... and Zim's willingness to go all the way in defense of his neighborhood REALLY bothers folks that don't grasp the realities of personal defense or individual responsibility - in my opinion. And I happen to think that is the dividing line on this issue, and not really "race". I think some folks are scared or embarassed or whatever, when they see a plain ol guy have the balls to face a scaryy situation -- one that 99% of them would simply turn from and go away and just hope it was their neighbor, and not them, that was the target next time. There are very few folks who would have the balls to DRIVE around that neighborhood and monitor activity - in their own car - forfear of retaliation. Do you follow what I'm getting at, as far as the effects of PC type crap on America, and on the expected actions of individuals - both Zim and Martin had expected and acceptable rolls in this, by PC standards. Zim stepped out of the allowed PC action. Maybe?

The Confrontation: Zim was on patrol to confront anything that was not right. If nobody were on patrol for possible bad guys, then there is no confrontation. But, lets continue this line of thought.... if there were no bad guy activity in the area then there was no patrol and no confrontation. Furthermore, if there were a curfew that demanded empty streets from 6pm to 6am, then there is no confrontation. If Zim were a coward, then there is no confronation. If Martin had said, "hello sir, how are you this evening?", there would be no confrontation.
The Fight: All indications from day one, for me, was that Zim got jumpped when he walked back to his vehicle. The 911 call, the locations of each known event, the unattached whitnesses at the shooting location, and my in-my-head play by play "if it were me" roll playing as Zim and as Martin, all of these indicated the physical fight was started by Martin. Zim, dispite all of the hear-say fodder from oppritunists, does not have a history of being a badass fistfighter. Truth is, if he were a badassed fistfighter, he would not have been armed and would not have called 911 in the first place. He more likely would have walked up to Martin and asked him what he was doing hanging around there. Ofcourse that would also mean that an armed Martin = a dead Zim ... and that is the more common outdome of such interactions. Maybe that is why Zim chose to be armed while on patrol?

Is it possible that Zim started the actual physical fight ... next to his vehicle ... where he planned to meet the repsonding police ... yep, it is possible. But, he did not follow Martin and jump him. Martin did change course and end up at the shooting location. Zim had a reason to change course and end up there. Matin did not have any known reason to change course and go there. Do you agree? At any rate, Zim could have done anything ... but, in my life history it is not common for a weapon holding agressor to get a broken nose, a smashed head, and scream for help. So, it is my guess that Zim was not holding his weapon, it was holstered, and he got jumped by Martin who had no idea that Zim was ready to defend himself with a weapon. Had Zim been brandishing the weapon, the more likely case is Martin runs away, and Zim gets in trouble for brandishing. Right?

One thing we do not agree on, the race issue. Zim don't care what race Martin is when this is going down. I dont think Martin cared what race Zim was either.

http://www.dDWfTCoZj5M&feature=related

Bap33 says

my in-my-head play by play "if it were me" roll playing as Zim and as Martin

To accurately play out an "if it were me" scenario from Zimmerman's perspective. You also need to have, in the past, been arrested for assaulting a police officer; fired from a security job for being too aggressive (excessively assaulted a drunk woman resulting in injury to her); have an ex-fiance file a domestic violence charge against you; and follow someone in a road-rage incident where the person reports feeling threatened; have neighbors that fear walking by your home; etc. (the list goes on and on, but this should be enough for you to get the idea)

I am hoping that those experiences are not similar to your history, and you would have to do a little work getting into character.

OK... take a deep breath, and get into that character...

Now, put in your mind the thought "Those fucking punks always get away."

You finally caught up to one of those punks after a little bit of cat-and-mouse where that damn punk tried to run from you.

So, in character now what do you do?

a. Politely ask the punk what he is doing the neighborhood and after hearing the punks answer -- presumably acceptable -- you calmly turn and walk back to your vehicle.

b. You attempt to detain the punk until police arrive.

Remember it was Zimmerman not you that shot Trayvon.

I would never, ever, have tried to detain anyone that I did not see doing a crime with my own eyes. ANd I do not mean I seen them yesterday do a crime, because I would not detain in the instance either. I would only perform a citizens arrest if I was stopping a crime in progress. Period. So, until Martin hit me, he was free to come and go as he pleased. At no time would I suggest that Zim should have tried to hold Martin until the physical attack began.

I have not been arrested, but I have been asked to come in to be questioned, and I have responded to a few bench warrants. You?

I have never hurt a woman. You?

I have been falsely accused of LOTS of stuff. You?

I have done lots of stuff that I am not proud of. You?

lol, at any rate, nothing that I have heard indicates that Zim tried to detain Martin, and nothing makes detaining Martin an acceptable choice unless Zim saw him commiting a crime. So, until, or if, Martin hit Zim, Zim should not have laid a finger on Martin. Not even reach up and grab his sleeve to spin him around and talk to him. Just my opinion. Do you agree?

Bap33 says

I have not been arrested, but I have been asked to come in to be questioned, and I have responded to a few bench warrants. You?

No, I have not been arrested.

Bap33 says

I have never hurt a woman. You?

No.

Bap33 says

I have been falsely accused of LOTS of stuff. You?

No.

Uh.... wait, you have been accused of a lot of crimes? Were lots of unrelated people accusing you of similar incidents? If so you might want to reflect on how "false" the accusations were.

Bap33 says

I have done lots of stuff that I am not proud of. You?

I would not say "lots", but yeah I have done stuff I am not proud of.

Bap33 says

nothing makes detaining Martin an acceptable choice unless Zim saw him commiting a crime.

Agreed.

Bap33 says

So, until, or if, Martin hit Zim, Zim should not have laid a finger on Martin.

Agreed.

Bap33 says

Not even reach up and grab his sleeve to spin him around and talk to him. Just my opinion. Do you agree?

Agreed and if Zimmerman had tried to detain Martin, then it would have been within Martin's right to use force to resist being detained. You agree?

I think that we fundamentally disagree on Zimmerman's personality profile.

That said, what about Martin's profile? You don't buy any of the many interviews on Zimmerman's personality, but why do you think that Martin would be the type of person who, out of the blue, attacks the friendly neighborhood watch-person who asked him a few polite questions then made the mistake of turning his back on Martin? Why would Martin, who was not up to any criminal activity, do this after already having tried to run from Zimmerman?

Bap33 says

next to his vehicle ... where he planned to meet the repsonding police ... yep, it is possible.

You say this so matter of factly in the middle of your rant...I almost missed it. But you do know that the confrontation happened in the backyard where there was a concrete walking path behind a house, right? It wasn't within 50 yards of the street. Look at the police report decription of the two addresses where they found Martin's body. Then google map those two addresses. Their backyards are adjacent to each other.

It was nowhere near Zim's car.

Ugh. The guy wasn't racist. Last year he got on the police about trying to cover up their beating of a homeless black man.

Trial hasn't even started and already the defense is lying to the court.

Zimmerman's defense team stated during an April court hearing that Zimmerman's "family members misinformed the court (the state would use a much stronger and accurate word to describe what occurred -- defendant's wife lied to the court) about defendant and his family's finances," Corey wrote in court papers.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/01/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

Dan8267 says

Trial hasn't even started and already the defense is lying to the court.

SHOCKED, I am shocked I tell you!

You mean to tell me that the nice young man defending his neighborhood is the type of person to tell a lie!

PORT CANAVERAL --

A termination hearing Friday will decide whether a Port Canaveral police officer will lose his job over allegations he brought targets resembling Trayvon Martin to a gun range.

Sgt. Ron King was terminated by Port Canaveral’s police chief last Friday. He released a videotaped statement on Youtube late Saturday evening.

The incident happened at the Sheriff's Farm gun range near Interstate 95 in Cocoa on April 4.

King was leading a target practice with two other Port Canaveral police officers and another civilian port employee, according to port Canaveral Interim CEO John Walsh.

Walsh said King brought out the targets with a picture resembling Martin and asked the other officers if they wanted to use the picture for target practice.

The officers declined, and told King to put the picture back into his patrol car. They were all on duty that day.

In the YouTube video, King said he and the Trayvon Martin family were being used as pawns to further political agendas in the police department.

"I am being accused of using a Trayvon Martin silhouette target for firearms training in a manner that is less than professional. I take these allegations seriously and I find that others are accusing me of something that I just plain did not do," King said.

There's something really sad about a grown-ass man posing with a gun like a kid playing cops and robbers in the backyard.

And this one:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/41776_George_Zimmermans_Brother_Compares_Trayvon_Martin_to_Georgia_Baby-Killer_Suspect