patrick.net

I don't believe any Sanford police and family doctor reports.
They try to cover up now.

Exactly. DO NOT COME TO FLORIDA.
We dont want you

Bap33 says

why believe a "former co-worker" story? What system did you use to weight the value of some off-handed comment by a possible opritunist, or fibber? Fair question?

Yes, a fair question. Because it is consistent with Zimmerman's behavior reported by other people. I find it unlikely that Zimmerman is the victim of a vast conspiracy involving many ex-coworkers and neighbors. Also, in this incidence there was a complaint filed against Zimmerman.

A complaint can be filed be anyone, at any time, for any reason or no reason.

Zim shared his home and dinner table with all people of all ethnic make-up, and was a person of color himself. He cant be held to any different race based action than the common negro vs negro crime that goes on.

leo,
Do you feel the mass media (except Fox) has been fair and balanced in their reporting, or has there been an obvious tactic in place to have Zim and this issue fit some type profile? If you see some type of profile in play, what is it and why?

Bap33 says

A complaint can be filed be anyone, at any time, for any reason or no reason.

Yes, and when numerous unassociated people are making the same comments a pattern emerges.

Bap33 says

Zim shared his home and dinner table with all people of all ethnic make-up, and was a person of color himself.

So, is your argument that because of this background it is OK for him to harass, bully and profile others -- not in his immediate circle -- because of their race?

Bap33 says

He cant be held to any different race based action than the common negro vs negro crime that goes on.

Sure he can, this was not a "negro vs negro" crime. Are you implying that all "coloreds" are the same? If Trayvon was white or Hispanic he would be alive today.

Bap33 says

Do you feel the mass media (except Fox) has been fair and balanced in their reporting,

I have not been watching the FOX "news" coverage on this case, but they are the least "fair and balanced" major media source in the US. World wide their bias and high level of propaganda is rivaled only by Murdoch's other news holdings and perhaps the State Chinese news service.

Based on the penchant for making up facts and blatant lies I feel safe in the assumption that whatever Zimmerman profile they have been spoon feeding you is totally incorrect.

I was not referencing Fox. My question about your opinion of media coverage said to exclude Fox, and use just the others and what they have done on this case thus far. Maybe I wrote it where it was hard to follow. I was hoping for your opinion of the media coverage and actions thus far on this matter ... but was planning to avoid any input Fox may have had so as to avoid Fox being some type of focus. Do you see my question now if you re-read it?

Zim's bloodline and life history do not indicate a typical racist, was my point of his family life. Your assertian that Martin would still be alive if he were not negro is valid. But, not for the reasons that you think. If he were not negro he would possibly be less likely to: be on drugs, be dressed like the local thugs, be a drop-out, be prowling around in the dark, be taking an agressive action against Zim, and be mistaken for a local bad guy. He would also be less likely to go to prison, father a child out of wedlock, and many other things. But a white/brown/yellow/or green man that attacked Zim would be dead to.

The media coverage thus far has presented items both for an against Zimmerman. Without access to the same information that the prosecutor, lawyers, judge and ultimately the jury will have it is impossible for either of us to say just how "fair and balanced" the coverage has been. However, I don't think that the cop at the scene that wanted to arrest Zimmerman for manslaughter or the interviews of people who knew Zimmerman are part of a vast conspiracy.

Bap33 says

Zim's bloodline and life history do not indicate a typical racist, was my point of his family life

Correct, often people who are exposed to diversity will tend to not be racists, often not always.

Bap33 says

If he were not negro he would possibly be less likely to: be on drugs, be dressed like the local thugs, be a drop-out, be prowling around in the dark, be taking an agressive action against Zim, and be mistaken for a local bad guy. He would also be less likely to go to prison, father a child out of wedlock, and many other things. But a white/brown/yellow/or green man that attacked Zim would be dead to.

Martin was an individual not a statistic and I am sure you are aware of the issues that arise when trying to apply statistics to individuals.

We do not know that Martin was the aggressor. George "These assholes always get away" Zimmerman could have just as easily -- or perhaps easier -- laid hands on Martin first.

We do know now for sure (from Zimmerman and Martin's girl friend) that Martin -- who was doing nothing criminal -- was trying to evade Zimmerman and avoid a confrontation, but Zimmerman still caught up to him (despite instruction not to).

One of these people did try to defend themselves from an aggressor. The question is who?

Do you really not take into account -- seemingly at all -- Zimmerman's violent, aggressive and confrontational history? A history and personality that is only becoming more reinforced as more acquaintances of Zimmerman's are interviewed? Yet apply every stereotype and statistic of a black teenager to Martin?

@Bap,

Certainly we can agree that a fight did breakout between Martin and Zimmerman.

Do you think that it might be possible that Zimmerman started the fight?

leoj707 says

Do you really not take into account -- seemingly at all -- Zimmerman's violent, aggressive and confrontational history?

sure, I see this, but I am of the opinion that America's view of manly behavior has been twisted by the PC police. There are folks that do not want boys playing tackle football at recess in 3rd grade. There are folks like me that EXPECT little boys to run and tackle and fight a little bit. There are folks that do not want score to be kept in little leauge, There are folks like me that keep score, no matter what, and so do my kids. I think there are folks that are afraid of what rugged individualism stands for in America ... and Zim's willingness to go all the way in defense of his neighborhood REALLY bothers folks that don't grasp the realities of personal defense or individual responsibility - in my opinion. And I happen to think that is the dividing line on this issue, and not really "race". I think some folks are scared or embarassed or whatever, when they see a plain ol guy have the balls to face a scaryy situation -- one that 99% of them would simply turn from and go away and just hope it was their neighbor, and not them, that was the target next time. There are very few folks who would have the balls to DRIVE around that neighborhood and monitor activity - in their own car - forfear of retaliation. Do you follow what I'm getting at, as far as the effects of PC type crap on America, and on the expected actions of individuals - both Zim and Martin had expected and acceptable rolls in this, by PC standards. Zim stepped out of the allowed PC action. Maybe?

The Confrontation: Zim was on patrol to confront anything that was not right. If nobody were on patrol for possible bad guys, then there is no confrontation. But, lets continue this line of thought.... if there were no bad guy activity in the area then there was no patrol and no confrontation. Furthermore, if there were a curfew that demanded empty streets from 6pm to 6am, then there is no confrontation. If Zim were a coward, then there is no confronation. If Martin had said, "hello sir, how are you this evening?", there would be no confrontation.
The Fight: All indications from day one, for me, was that Zim got jumpped when he walked back to his vehicle. The 911 call, the locations of each known event, the unattached whitnesses at the shooting location, and my in-my-head play by play "if it were me" roll playing as Zim and as Martin, all of these indicated the physical fight was started by Martin. Zim, dispite all of the hear-say fodder from oppritunists, does not have a history of being a badass fistfighter. Truth is, if he were a badassed fistfighter, he would not have been armed and would not have called 911 in the first place. He more likely would have walked up to Martin and asked him what he was doing hanging around there. Ofcourse that would also mean that an armed Martin = a dead Zim ... and that is the more common outdome of such interactions. Maybe that is why Zim chose to be armed while on patrol?

Is it possible that Zim started the actual physical fight ... next to his vehicle ... where he planned to meet the repsonding police ... yep, it is possible. But, he did not follow Martin and jump him. Martin did change course and end up at the shooting location. Zim had a reason to change course and end up there. Matin did not have any known reason to change course and go there. Do you agree? At any rate, Zim could have done anything ... but, in my life history it is not common for a weapon holding agressor to get a broken nose, a smashed head, and scream for help. So, it is my guess that Zim was not holding his weapon, it was holstered, and he got jumped by Martin who had no idea that Zim was ready to defend himself with a weapon. Had Zim been brandishing the weapon, the more likely case is Martin runs away, and Zim gets in trouble for brandishing. Right?

One thing we do not agree on, the race issue. Zim don't care what race Martin is when this is going down. I dont think Martin cared what race Zim was either.

http://www.dDWfTCoZj5M&feature=related

Bap33 says

my in-my-head play by play "if it were me" roll playing as Zim and as Martin

To accurately play out an "if it were me" scenario from Zimmerman's perspective. You also need to have, in the past, been arrested for assaulting a police officer; fired from a security job for being too aggressive (excessively assaulted a drunk woman resulting in injury to her); have an ex-fiance file a domestic violence charge against you; and follow someone in a road-rage incident where the person reports feeling threatened; have neighbors that fear walking by your home; etc. (the list goes on and on, but this should be enough for you to get the idea)

I am hoping that those experiences are not similar to your history, and you would have to do a little work getting into character.

OK... take a deep breath, and get into that character...

Now, put in your mind the thought "Those fucking punks always get away."

You finally caught up to one of those punks after a little bit of cat-and-mouse where that damn punk tried to run from you.

So, in character now what do you do?

a. Politely ask the punk what he is doing the neighborhood and after hearing the punks answer -- presumably acceptable -- you calmly turn and walk back to your vehicle.

b. You attempt to detain the punk until police arrive.

Remember it was Zimmerman not you that shot Trayvon.

I would never, ever, have tried to detain anyone that I did not see doing a crime with my own eyes. ANd I do not mean I seen them yesterday do a crime, because I would not detain in the instance either. I would only perform a citizens arrest if I was stopping a crime in progress. Period. So, until Martin hit me, he was free to come and go as he pleased. At no time would I suggest that Zim should have tried to hold Martin until the physical attack began.

I have not been arrested, but I have been asked to come in to be questioned, and I have responded to a few bench warrants. You?

I have never hurt a woman. You?

I have been falsely accused of LOTS of stuff. You?

I have done lots of stuff that I am not proud of. You?

lol, at any rate, nothing that I have heard indicates that Zim tried to detain Martin, and nothing makes detaining Martin an acceptable choice unless Zim saw him commiting a crime. So, until, or if, Martin hit Zim, Zim should not have laid a finger on Martin. Not even reach up and grab his sleeve to spin him around and talk to him. Just my opinion. Do you agree?

Bap33 says

I have not been arrested, but I have been asked to come in to be questioned, and I have responded to a few bench warrants. You?

No, I have not been arrested.

Bap33 says

I have never hurt a woman. You?

No.

Bap33 says

I have been falsely accused of LOTS of stuff. You?

No.

Uh.... wait, you have been accused of a lot of crimes? Were lots of unrelated people accusing you of similar incidents? If so you might want to reflect on how "false" the accusations were.

Bap33 says

I have done lots of stuff that I am not proud of. You?

I would not say "lots", but yeah I have done stuff I am not proud of.

Bap33 says

nothing makes detaining Martin an acceptable choice unless Zim saw him commiting a crime.

Agreed.

Bap33 says

So, until, or if, Martin hit Zim, Zim should not have laid a finger on Martin.

Agreed.

Bap33 says

Not even reach up and grab his sleeve to spin him around and talk to him. Just my opinion. Do you agree?

Agreed and if Zimmerman had tried to detain Martin, then it would have been within Martin's right to use force to resist being detained. You agree?

I think that we fundamentally disagree on Zimmerman's personality profile.

That said, what about Martin's profile? You don't buy any of the many interviews on Zimmerman's personality, but why do you think that Martin would be the type of person who, out of the blue, attacks the friendly neighborhood watch-person who asked him a few polite questions then made the mistake of turning his back on Martin? Why would Martin, who was not up to any criminal activity, do this after already having tried to run from Zimmerman?

Bap33 says

next to his vehicle ... where he planned to meet the repsonding police ... yep, it is possible.

You say this so matter of factly in the middle of your rant...I almost missed it. But you do know that the confrontation happened in the backyard where there was a concrete walking path behind a house, right? It wasn't within 50 yards of the street. Look at the police report decription of the two addresses where they found Martin's body. Then google map those two addresses. Their backyards are adjacent to each other.

It was nowhere near Zim's car.

Ugh. The guy wasn't racist. Last year he got on the police about trying to cover up their beating of a homeless black man.

Trial hasn't even started and already the defense is lying to the court.

Zimmerman's defense team stated during an April court hearing that Zimmerman's "family members misinformed the court (the state would use a much stronger and accurate word to describe what occurred -- defendant's wife lied to the court) about defendant and his family's finances," Corey wrote in court papers.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/01/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html

Dan8267 says

Trial hasn't even started and already the defense is lying to the court.

SHOCKED, I am shocked I tell you!

You mean to tell me that the nice young man defending his neighborhood is the type of person to tell a lie!

PORT CANAVERAL --

A termination hearing Friday will decide whether a Port Canaveral police officer will lose his job over allegations he brought targets resembling Trayvon Martin to a gun range.

Sgt. Ron King was terminated by Port Canaveral’s police chief last Friday. He released a videotaped statement on Youtube late Saturday evening.

The incident happened at the Sheriff's Farm gun range near Interstate 95 in Cocoa on April 4.

King was leading a target practice with two other Port Canaveral police officers and another civilian port employee, according to port Canaveral Interim CEO John Walsh.

Walsh said King brought out the targets with a picture resembling Martin and asked the other officers if they wanted to use the picture for target practice.

The officers declined, and told King to put the picture back into his patrol car. They were all on duty that day.

In the YouTube video, King said he and the Trayvon Martin family were being used as pawns to further political agendas in the police department.

"I am being accused of using a Trayvon Martin silhouette target for firearms training in a manner that is less than professional. I take these allegations seriously and I find that others are accusing me of something that I just plain did not do," King said.

There's something really sad about a grown-ass man posing with a gun like a kid playing cops and robbers in the backyard.

And this one:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/41776_George_Zimmermans_Brother_Compares_Trayvon_Martin_to_Georgia_Baby-Killer_Suspect