patrick.net

leoj707 says

Bap33 says

Have you even considered, what if Zim was right? but was not ready to defend his life?

Yeah, that is the position that Trayvon was probably in. Have you considered that?

personal life history is shaping my instincts about this part ... just going with my gut ... and my gut sure could be wrong ... for the first time ever. It's due.

you have a great weekend

Bap33 says

lol ... replaced ideas with personal attacks?? Are you channeling Clarence?? lol

The best defense is what? Right.

Okay here is the same thing without the colorful adjectives, and newsflash, the idea I am trying to communicate was there all the same.

I've lived in urban areas a good part of my life where half the people look like Martin or possibly scarier to a sheltered inexperienced guys like you or zimmerman, and I don't walk in fear or make absurdly prejudiced assumptions.

Bap33 says

"girly man" ... lmao

Sorry if this hurt your feelings. But the underlying issue here is fear.

one could say an ignorance to danger for one person might seem like a lack of fear to another person. I personally take the position of hope for great but be ready for crap.

I lived in Seaside for 10 years. It was 70% black folks before Fort Ord closed. Extreem crime. I was right in the thick of it. Your own "absurdly prejudiced assumptions" have been dismantled.

You mention someone "looking scarier" than Martin. I don't know what scary people look like. Sounds like a fear trigger.

"Scary" vs "Bad guy" or whatever your term was.

The fact is even if Zimmerman was a decent guy in many ways, and with what might be argued to be good reason to falsely judge Martin. He fucked up big time, in a way that is not forgivable.

I don't mean that Jesus can't forgive him. I mean he is probably guilty of at least manslaughter and probably desrves to do some serious time.

Bap33 says

I don't know what scary people look like. Sounds like a fear trigger.

earlier

Bap33 says

Why not have the bad guys be held responsible for making the other citizens so angry and afraid that the innocent people that look like the bad guys are looked at as badguys.

I don't fear bad guys. In the right situations, bad guys fear me. Bet that.

marcus says

I mean he is probably guilty of at least manslaughter and probably desrves to do some serious time.

It is silly to send anyone to prison or jail that is not a threat to society, or needs to be protected from society. For example, Bernie Made-off would be killed if not in prison. The five monsters in my earlier example are a denger to the general public. Zim is not a danger to anyone that is not fighting with him. Your words, "unforgivible" .... those do not fit the rest of your on-line persona that I have experienced.

Bap33 says

those do not fit the rest of your on-line persona that I have experienced.

It's not about meaness or vindictiveness.

Sometimes as a teacher I am in a position where I have to discipline a student. It takes time away from what I want to be doing, and it sometimes takes a student who most needs to be in class, out of the class. While I deeply wish not to spend the time on that, or cause that student the harm of missing the lesson, I do it for one reason only. That is to retain order, and so that the class knows there are consequences to not following rules.

It's the same thing here. There are a few different reasons why I think Zimmerman will probably need to pay some serious prison time, but the biggest reason is the message that it sends to everyone which is, ...what he did was not okay.

(maybe we can avoid speculating on wild and unlikely scenarios where it would have been okay. IF that changes as the truth hopefully becomes more clear, then all bets are off. Remember we know about Zimmerman's past emotional issues (anger/temper) and I think we know that it was not Zimmerman's voice begging for help right before the shooting. MArtin kicking Zimmerman's ass before that, if he did, may be irrelevant. In any case, my point is that if it turns out to be anything close to what we know now - then jail time and at least manslaughter will be justice)

your example is EXACTLY why I like the death penalty.... and not just the death penalty, but public hanging. Public hanging for all murder 1, any gang activity, drug sales, kidnapping, and pedifile crimes. Public Hanging -- in the same way the discipline in the classroom removes the problem, plus sends a message to others - will reduce crime.

marcus, we agree 100% on the importance of discipline. I spank my kids so their teacher need only say once, "sit down, or a note goes home." So far, no notes have came home. Each open house, each year, each teacher is told by me - face to face - "You can spank them if you want, and I suggest and support it, but if you would rather me spank them, just call me and I'll whip them in front of the entire class. They understand crime and punishment." Some teachers look queasy, some grin, but none have called me yet, nor had to discipline my child with detention or some other silly thing.

marcus says

maybe we can avoid speculating on wild and unlikely scenarios where it would have been okay. IF that changes as the truth hopefully becomes more clear, then all bets are off. Remember we know about Zimmerman's past emotional issues (anger/temper) and I think we know that it was not Zimmerman's voice begging for help right before the shooting. MArtin's kicking Zimmerman's ass before that, if he did, may be irrelevant. In any case, my point is that if it turns out to be anything close to what we know now - then jail time and at least manslaughter will be justice)

my guess ... Martin is beating up Zim, Zim pulled gun to stop the beating, Martin tried to grab gun that was pointed at him (I think that is why mom says it was not on purpose) - that is why shot is in chest. Just my gut guess.

The whitness in the upper window heard it and seen it go down. He says Zim was screaming for help. The trouble is, he was white, so his teatimony will be poopooed by the racebaitor (I know, wrong word, but whatever) media and the Sharpten types.

One thing, lets look at that whole "screaming for help" thing. You do notice that NOBODY just ran out to start helping .. right? And why might that be?? Because they did not feel safe, and were probably unarmed. An armed populous can run out and help when that request is made. If the entire area were armed, a scream for help would have resulted in help .. for Zim or for Martin .. and that matters. People having to live so afraid of going outside to answer a scream for help is how people are raped and people are murdered and attacked by dogs. The 2nd Ammendment is there for a reason. One reason being a city may not have the funds to keep a cop on every block.

I said, let's not speculate. But if you insist.

my guess...is way different. But it's a number of possibilities of of what happened between Zimmerman's pursuit of a kid who he had no business pursuing and Martin kicking his ass, that is, if he did. MY best guess is one of two reasons.

Either he was responding to Zimmerman's trying to detain him. Or it might have been simply fear, "who is this asshole that's stalking me."

But I see MArtin trying to leave again after kicking Zimmerman's ass, and then Zimmerman getting up and in a rage pulling out his gun, at which point Martin started begging for his life, because he knew how pissed off Zimmerman was at that point.(remember Zimmerman's known rage issues)

WE just don't know. But your assumption suggests that Martin was in the process of trying to kill Zimmermnan. A huge leap in my view.

We also understand that no matter what, Zimmerman would feel that he needed to claim that Martin was trying to kill him. This is obvious. Everyone with an ounce of intelligence knows that Zimmerman would say that. His saying that his life was at risk is totally irrelevant.

He's not going to say, "oh my God, what have I done, I just shot a guy who was just trying to get away from me. I'm fucked and going to go to prison for a very long time !!"

Ask yourself, assuming total objectivity. What's more likely ? That Martin was trying to kill Zimmerman and Zimmerman needed to shoot Martin to prevent that from happening ?

OR after shooting an unarmed teen, Zimmerman claimed his life was in danger to justify what he had done?

Show me you can be honest Bap. I'm not asking you what you wish to be true. Just what's more likely?

(By the way, this question ignores another big question which is why is Zimmerman even pursuing MArtin in the first place. Obviously from Martin's point of view, he did not represent law enforcement - he only represented a danger to him.)

http://news.discovery.com/tech/george-zimmerman-voice-recognition-120404.html

The issue I pointed to about the lack of response from folks who heard the screams ..... ponder that just a bit more ..... the people sitting in their homes were afraid to go help .... Zim was outside. If a person inside a house, that is not doing anything at all, can be afraid to open their door to see who needs help, then a guy in a scuffle SHOULD be afraid of being beat to death. The thing is, all fights are to the death if one of the people in the fight does not stop.

In my opinion, Zim, and any person on patrol, has need to be prepaired to defend themselves and others from harm. I say this because some bad guys are not happy to just stop, avoid the patrolman, and go do their stuff elsewhere. Some bad guys know that if they scare the partrolman away, then their is less effort needed to do crime. So, some bad guys go after the patrolmen. Smart patrolmen are ready for such things. Stupid patrolmen are dead.

To the point you make, sure, Zim could have jumped up pissed from having been attacked for doing what he felt was the right thing. That sure could happen. Now, will you stop suggesting that race had anything more to do with this than the fact that most of the bad guys in that area were young black men? You are suggesting Zim seen red, I say "could be", but when you say he seen black, I say "nope".

Bap33 says

In my opinion, Zim, and any person on patrol, has need to be prepaired to defend themselves and others from harm.

We're going in circles. He was the watch captain not a patrol oficer.

Bap33 says

stop suggesting that race had anything more to do with this than the fact that most of the bad guys in that area were young black men?

Even if that's true, there is some simple logic that apparently you and ZImmerman have a lot of trouble with. Let's assume most of the bad guys in the area are black teens, unlikely, but let's assume that.

What kind of retard thinks therefore most of the black teens are bad guys ?

Zimmerman clearly stated in one of the conversations with the dispatcher - “these assholes always get away with it."

He already had him pegged as guilty.

As I said initially Bap, your well known race issues and your defensiveness about guns are two reasons you should have stayed out of this thread.

marcus says

As I said initially Bap, your well known race issues and your defensiveness about guns are two reasons you should have stayed out of this thread.

and your inability to see truth should hinder your willingness to opine also, my good man.

no worries, have a good Sunday evening.

http://www.youtube.com/v/LONUecnsMb8&hl=en_US&feature=player_embedded&version=3

Here is an interesting opinion, and he's probably right about black on black murder. You decide.

Excellant share Honest Abe.

lol .... that dude and me, we are on the same page. I knew the world was not all crazy!! America may be just fine after all. I wonder how Clarence feels about that video.... no I dont really.

Bap:

You should really think it through next time before you go off into another rage and hurt your kids. If you have problems controlling your temper, you should look into counseling.

I'm not sure if you realize this, but physically and mentally abusing defenseless children is not taken as lightly these days as it was four or five decades ago.

Bap33 says

You are suggesting Zim seen red, I say "could be", but when you say he seen black, I say "nope".

Of course he was seeing black. If Trayvon was non-black he would still be alive.

Zimmerman targeted Trayvon because of his perception that...
Bap33 says

most of the bad guys in that area were young black men?

Bap33 says

Public Hanging -- in the same way the discipline in the classroom removes the problem, plus sends a message to others - will reduce crime.

No, execution public or otherwise has been found to not be much of a deterrent to others committing the same crime(s). Well, except for the one executed, but life in prison works just as well to deter re-offenders.

The problem with your comparison is that in the classroom the offense is clear to everyone in the room; the offender expects to get caught, is daring the teacher to do something about it. Non-action by the teacher just makes things worse. This is scenario is not at all like a criminal plotting murder.

The majority of people who commit murder don't think that they are going to get caught, so any penalty does not factor into their thinking. If getting caught was assured -- as it is in the classroom -- then life in prison and the death penalty are equally deterrent.

For certain crimes -- my list is a little more abbreviated than yours -- I am not morally opposed to the death penalty. I am however fiscally opposed to it. The cost of putting people to death is many times greater than putting them in prison for life. Yes, yes... I already hear the cries if kill people faster with fewer appeals, but that would mean killing more innocent people. Not worth it to me with life in prison has the same effect.

If anyone is worrying about curbing government spending doing away with the death penalty should be a slam dunk.

Bap33 says

Public hanging for...drug sales

Well, I almost agree with you.
http://www.Fb3nicduLfM

Bap33 says

It is silly to send anyone to prison or jail that is not a threat to society, or needs to be protected from society.

I agree, we way over imprison in the US. Thank you, privatized for profit prisons!

Bap33 says

For example, Bernie Made-off would be killed if not in prison. The five monsters in my earlier example are a denger to the general public.

Agreed, but I think that Bernie may still be threat to people life savings if he was let out.

Bap33 says

Zim is not a danger to anyone that is not fighting with him.

And... Zimmerman has an aggressive personality with a temper so I it seems that anyone who pisses him of -- or he finds suspicious -- could find themselves screaming for help as Zimmerman starts fighting with them.

I know we disagree on the fundamentals of Zimmerman's personality, but we will see how the trial turns out. If he gets prison time I think that society will be safer without him.

moldhaven says

You should really think it through next time before you go off into another rage and hurt your kids. If you have problems controlling your temper, you should look into counseling.

Bap does not understand that spanking is ineffective and actually counter productive to the lessons that you want a child to learn. It can have a profoundly negative impact on the child's development and on the adults relationship with the child. A while back we discussed it at length.

However, to be fair -- if I am remembering correctly -- Bap has not spanked his children very often and I don't think he is a "rage" spanker.

moldhaven says

Bap:

You should really think it through next time before you go off into another rage and hurt your kids. If you have problems controlling your temper, you should look into counseling.

I'm not sure if you realize this, but physically and mentally abusing defenseless children is not taken as lightly these days as it was four or five decades ago.

lol .... undisciplined people are a scrooge to society.
Funny, the pro-baby-murder crowd does not like the idea of spanking a bratty 2 year old or a 7 year old liar ?? how weird is that?

Only weird-o hippies, single parents, and non-parents have an issue with kids getting spanked as needed. Go watch some Tyler Perry for good life lessons!! (no really, they are great shows and right)

Bap33 says

Funny, the pro-baby-murder crowd does not like the idea of spanking a bratty 2 year old or a 7 year old liar ?? how weird is that?

Abortion has absolutely nothing to do with the issue on spanking.

Bap33 says

Only weird-o hippies, single parents, and non-parents have an issue with kids getting spanked as needed.

You forgot to add people who have the critical thinking skills to evaluate the decades of research that has been done on spanking.

Funny you mention lying because numerous studies have proven that spanking actually makes children into better and more frequent liars. Don't take my word for it. If you really care about your kids you should at least look into it.

lol .. yea boy howdy .. kids these days are just born acting right. lol. Mine shall be spanked as needed, same as kids needing to serve detention when needed, or gangsters go to prison when needed, or murdering thugs hang when needed.

Bap33 says

Mine shall be spanked as needed

Bap, I know that as a parent it is difficult to accept that one has done something that is detrimental to their child(ren). People can get very invested in parenting techniques because they don't want them to be wrong; they don't want to accept that they have subjected their child to years -- or even moments -- of an environment that is detrimental to the child's well being.

Sure, some people genuinely don't really care how their children turnout, in fact some want to see their children fail. I don't think that you are this kind of parent. While I disagree with you on just about everything, I think that you do want your children to live happy lives and be better off than you.

This issues is different than climate change, economics, religion, politics, etc. This is not about your ego or what "team" is right, but it is about your child's future -- who they become and your relationship with them. As a parent you know that you need to check your ego at the door and do what is best for your kids. You owe it to them to open your mind and do a little research. I know that it might mean a little bit of time away from theBlaze.com, but see if you can't improve your parenting tool box and perhaps reconsider hitting and humiliation as punishment tools.

lmao .. ok Dr. Phil.

The biggest hurdle my kids face at this time is the effects of the invasion. After they get past that, it's all gravy.

Bap33 says

lmao .. ok Dr. Phil.

Yes, yes, laugh at me all you want, but open your mind and look at the research.

Bap33 says

The biggest hurdle my kids face at this time is the effects of the invasion. After they get past that, it's all gravy.

I am not sure what "invasion" you are talking about, but I am assuming that it has something to do with a communist conspiracy to introduced a foreign substance is into our precious bodily fluids.

Conspiracy or not there is no happily ever after; no time when life is forever-after all gravy. There are always hurdles to face. Yes, for most being spanked as we are raised is not the biggest of the hurdles. However, the fallout from spanking can often make it more difficult for one to clear the hurdles that life puts in front of us.

reality is not the best friend of liberal ideals, is it?

"fallout from spanking" LMAO .. exaggerate much??... you would be funny, if it wasn't so true that so many leftists/liberal/progressives really do feel like you do. I did use "feel", and not "think", on purpose. "Think" is not the order of the day for that crowd.

lmao ... fallout ... what a hoot!!

Bap33 says

lmao ... fallout ... what a hoot!!

Ha, ha... yeah I guess it is pretty funny! LOL!

It is so funny that in your state of willful ignorance you are choosing to increase your children's chances of:
• Increased aggression
• Marital aggression in adulthood
• Sexual dysfunction
• Defiance to authority
• Easily frustrated
• Temper tantrums
• Difficulties with delayed gratification
• Inhibits learning
• Instills fear rather than understanding
• Depression
• Substance abuse
• Violent crimes
• Reduced empathy
• Increased level of anxiety
• Alienation from parent
• Lower IQ

Ah, ha yeah... "fallout" was a pretty silly way of putting it!

ROTGLMAO!

*whipes tears from eyes* ... whew... you funny Bap.

So, funny that you are using your truthiness skills to actually make you children's lives more difficult! This in not just some philosophical discussion about politics, economics, etc. You are actually hurting someone you purport to love! Oh, Bap... Bap... Bap... you is funny...

Thanks for the yucks!

you betcha Dr. Phil! Happy head shrinking!

Zim was attacked. Racebaiters suck.

Bap33 says

Zim was attacked.

Still not clear who the "attacker" was, but yes Zimmerman does appear to have gotten a little bit of a beating.

We also know that regardless of who the initial "attacker" was Martin was doing nothing criminal and his death was completely avoidable.

Bap33 says

Racebaiters suck.

Yes, they. However, in this situation as new facts are coming out it is seeming like the race-baiters were correct. Zimmerman seems to have been a very confrontational person, and has a history of harassing people because of their race.

That said I am glad it is in trial, and at this point gloating is pointless as we still don't have all the facts and do not know what the result of the trial will be.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/cops-witnesses-back-george-zimmermans-version/story?id=16371852

It looks like the facts are coming in to support Zimmerman. BTW, I don't think there is a law against being confrontational. If there was, there would be a lot more ethnic people in jail.

The biggest race baiters in the country are The Reverend, Jessie Jackson, Al Sharpton and B.H. Obama.

Honest Abe says

It looks like the facts are coming in to support Zimmerman.

Perhaps, but not everything coming out makes his case look better.

Honest Abe says

BTW, I don't think there is a law against being confrontational.

I don't think anyone has stated this. If there was Zimmerman would have been locked up a long time ago.

Honest Abe says

race baiters

leoj707 says

in this situation as new facts are coming out it is seeming like the race-baiters were correct. Zimmerman seems to have been a very confrontational person, and has a history of harassing people because of their race.

leoj707 says

and has a history of harassing people because of their race.

that is the only thing you said that I disagree with.

As for being "confrontational" ... is it not kinda par for the course that a person with the guts to put themselves in harms way for the good of their neighbors may need to have the balls to "confront" a possible bad guy?

And, as soon as Martin stuck Zim he was commiting a crime. Even if he was not part of the proweling thugs in the area that had been committing the crimes in the area, he did commit a crime when he struck Zim. He also matched the discription of the bad guys in the area. And, my personal favorite, Martin had dope in his blood, Zim did not.

I would rather live in an area full of Zims, vs an area full of 17 year old males on drugs. That is my personal view.

Bap33 says

leoj707 says

and has a history of harassing people because of their race.

that is the only thing you said that I disagree with.

?...I think that it has been made pretty clear now that Zimmerman did in fact use race as a basis for harassing/bullying people.

"...a former co-worker of Zimmerman's says Zimmerman made him the butt of a long-running office joke, ridiculing his Middle Eastern accent and bullying him in what the witness described as a juvenile but infuriating effort to fit in with other workers."
http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/18/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_bn1

And based on what has been coming out this was not an isolated incident.

Bap33 says

As for being "confrontational" ... is it not kinda par for the course that a person with the guts to put themselves in harms way for the good of their neighbors may need to have the balls to "confront" a possible bad guy?

No it is not par for the course. One can "confront" when necessary and yet not be a "confrontational person". Zimmerman has a history of hostility/confrontation and this character trait is only being affirmed by the new information coming out. I have known and dealt with this kind of person and generally try to avoid them when I can (which apparently someone does in Zimmerman's case). I would much rather live next to a pot-head than a confrontational asshole and I have had the pleasure of living next to both.

Bap33 says

And, as soon as Martin stuck Zim he was commiting a crime.

Only if Martin initiated the physical confrontation first. This we may never know.

Bap33 says

And, my personal favorite, Martin had dope in his blood, Zim did not.

You are of course aware that there were only trace amounts of THC in Martins blood, right? It is unlikely that he was under the influence at the time he was killed. Also, we don't know what Zimmerman had in his blood at the time. For all we know he could have been up to his eyeballs in meth. Is there some drug test taken by Zimmerman that I am unaware of?

For the record as much of a scum bag Zimmerman is appearing to be I would rather live next to him than a meth-head.

Also, if Martin had something in his blood other than THC -- say meth, crack, coke or even alcohol -- it would be much easier for me to by the aggressive Martin story. The side effect of pot is not an aggressive attitude.

the effects of cronic drug abuse is unnatural fear and a queer view of reality. Paranoid.

why believe a "former co-worker" story? What system did you use to weight the value of some off-handed comment by a possible opritunist, or fibber? Fair question?

I don't believe any Sanford police and family doctor reports.
They try to cover up now.

Exactly. DO NOT COME TO FLORIDA.
We dont want you