patrick.net

Honest Abe says

I'd like to add one more factor to the list: read self-help books.

I think you got that backwards. It should be write self-help books. That is the only proven way that self-help books get people rich.

add to Leoj707:
1. Write book on how to lose weight, targeted to women.
2. write book on how to get rich
3. write book on how the rich got rich
4. write book on the toys, houses, habits, foods, cars of the rich
5. write book on the women of the rich.
6. picture book on the women of the rich
7. picture book on women (random)

How about a TV program called "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous"...now that would surely be a hit!

BTW, I would have thought it was implied that you should not only READ self help books...but actually put into practice the advice which is offered.

I want to bake a chocolate cake. (1) read the recipe and take no action does not yield a chocolate cake. BUT (1) read the reciept, (2) gather the ingredients, (3) follow the reciept and baking instructions...and walaa! A chocolate cake.

Doesn't every college and university in America utilize books to educate their students? So are the students encouraged to read, and do nothing. OR are they encouraged to read, and then take appropriate actions? You tell me.

Honest Abe says

BTW, I would have thought it was implied that you should not only READ self help books...but actually put into practice the advice which is offered.

The problem is that the advice given in the get rich advice book is bullshit, and self-masturbatory garbage. Not too dissimilar to the list you used to start this thread.

I doubt that any one of Donald Trumps books says the secret to his success was being born in to a wealthy powerful family and a huge inheritance. I would not be surprised if Trumps book, lecture, celebrity income far and away exceeds any money he made in actual business.

So just as easy as baking a cake:
1. Get born to a wealthy powerful family
2. Inherit millions
3. Write books on how other can get rich like you!

Easy! Abe just follow those steps and soon you will be a billionaire like Trump!

Leo, advice given in self help books is "bullshit"? Really???

Here is a paraphrased piece of advice from any one of a number of financial self help books: SPEND LESS THAN YOU EARN. Obviously no politician other than Ron Paul understands that extreamly complicated and diffucult to understand concept.

For some reason libertarians understand the concept of spending less than what you earn, but you people just can't figure that one out.

Your envy gene is overpowering your logic gene. Oh, I forgot, liberals don't have any logic. Now we're getting to the root of your problem.

BTW, I haven't read any of The Donalds books...have you?

Honest Abe says

Leo, advice given in self help books is "bullshit"? Really???

Here is a paraphrased piece of advice from any one of a number of financial self help books: SPEND LESS THAN YOU EARN.

Yes, I think that it is bullshit when self help books parrot commonsense.

Does it also say: "Buy low sell high!", "make wise investments", etc.?

That is not to say that there are not good books out there that have good advice/info on business, finance, etc., but I would not call these books "self-help". I seriously doubt any "self-help" book marketed as "how to get rich" has much in the way of useful information. These books just prey on the naive and greedy. Books like "The Secret" come to mind.

Honest Abe says

BTW, I haven't read any of The Donalds books...have you?

Not cover to cover. Skimming and spot-reading were enough to let me know that I have no interest in investing my time in reading Trumps' books.

Honest Abe says

Leo, advice given in self help books is "bullshit"? Really???

Yes.

Start Here:
http://www.johntreed.com/Kiyosaki.html

Then Here:
http://www.randomhouse.com/crown/Sham/

The great hoot of them all is Napoleon Hill. It's packed with early 20th century eugenics, and the impressive sounding technical terms from the "Wireless" era - just like Self-help authors like to use a lot of "internet-y" words today. In his day, Madam Blavatsky (SP?) and "Spritualism" was big, whereas in today's Self-help BS books you get a lot of Pali and Hindu terms.

Transmorgify yourself to create riches!

Ben Franklin wrote also, and he showed by his own life the wisdom of his advice.
He was admired, rich, accomplished, retired early and went to France to get chicks.
"Beware of little expenses. A small leak will sink a great ship."
"Beware the hobby that eats." :)
"Employ thy time well, if thou meanest to gain leisure."
"Gain may be temporary and uncertain; but ever while you live, expense is constant and certain: and it is easier to build two chimneys than to keep one in fuel."
"He that displays too often his wife and his wallet is in danger of having both of them borrowed."
"He that lives upon hope will die fasting."

How to buy happiness:

http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_norton_how_to_buy_happiness.html

clambo says

Ben Franklin wrote also, and he showed by his own life the wisdom of his advice.
He was admired, rich, accomplished, retired early and went to France to get chicks.

Here you go:
http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/way-to-wealth-benjamin-franklin/1100081080?ean=9781451528084

Please let me know when you make you first billion by following the advice in this book. It should be easy as baking a cake.

leoj707 says

Please let me know when you make you first billion by following the advice in this book. It should be easy as baking a cake.

Who knew you could become rich by being an apprentice cooper? Lots of money in wooden barrels.
clambo says

Ben Franklin wrote also, and he showed by his own life the wisdom of his advice.

He also didn't follow his own advice very much.

Franklin was famous for partying until the early dawn, and feasting a great deal. Even joined a hellfire club.

No nation was ever ruined by trade.

Our necessities never equal our wants.

Rather go to bed with out dinner than to rise in debt.

Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God.

Remember that credit is money.

The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself.

There are three faithful friends - an old wife, an old dog, and ready money.

There are two ways of being happy: We must either diminish our wants or augment our means - either may do - the result is the same and it is for each man to decide for himself and to do that which happens to be easier.

Ben Franklin was what we would undoubtedly today would call a very successful guy.
Not only was he successful, he was admired. He was a statesman, a scientist, a businessman, and got French chicks when he could afford to lead his life of leisure.

If you desire many things, many things will seem few.

If you know how to spend less than you get, you have the philosopher's stone.

If you would know the value of money, go and try to borrow some.

In general, mankind, since the improvement of cookery, eats twice as much as nature requires.

It is the eye of other people that ruin us. If I were blind I would want, neither fine clothes, fine houses or fine furniture.

Money has never made man happy, nor will it, there is nothing in its nature to produce happiness. The more of it one has the more one wants.

He that can have patience can have what he will.

I guess I don't so much mind being old, as I mind being fat and old.

I saw few die of hunger; of eating, a hundred thousand.

clambo, Right on! I'm going to make a note of your comments, very astute!

And how about this: "You are rich when you are satisfied with what you have".

And this: "A small house can hold as much love as a big house".

Finally this: "Never look into another mans pocket".

"With great power comes a high electricity bill"

If I wanted to look up historical quotes, I can do that on my own.

clambo says

I guess I don't so much mind being old, as I mind being fat and old.

I saw few die of hunger; of eating, a hundred thousand.

In general, mankind, since the improvement of cookery, eats twice as much as nature requires.

Sounds more like a weight loss book.

I heard that normalizing for every other variable, the best indicator for how much money someone would make in their life is... The number of math classes they take.

Who knew ??

Finnian says

I heard that normalizing for every other variable, the best indicator for how much money someone would make in their life is... The number of math classes they take.

I wish.

marcus says

I wish.

Yeah, I doubt there is a strong correlation. It would be nice though.

I think there is a correlation, up to a point. Most students going to the very best Univrsities probably took Math at least up to Calculus (even if they are English majors). And then if students are great at MAth, but not so much at other subjects, and therefore not going to a top college or University, they still probably have a good shot at a very good technical career.

Another factor to becoming a millionaire I forgot to list: AFFIRMATIVE ACTION.

We still discussing this list Abe made up then attributed it to some "top rated" business coach who chooses to remain anonymous?

You realize Patrick had a link to an article that discussed this exact thing. It includes actual names of actual rich people and things they attribute to their success.

http://www.alternet.org/books/155149/the_self-made_myth%3A_debunking_conservatives%27_favorite_--_and_most_dangerous_--_fiction_?page=1

…interviews with 14 wealthy Americans -- including well-known names like Warren Buffet, Ben Cohen, Abigail Disney, and Amy Domini -- …Over and over, these people credit their wealth to:
* An excellent education received in public schools and universities

* The support of the Small Business Administration and other government agencies

* A strong regulatory environment

* Enforceable copyright and intellectual property laws

* A robust system of roads, ports, airports, and mass transit

* The government's role in creating the Internet

* The ability to issue public stock in a fair, reliable, regulated marketplace

Also, discussed in the article is “The Role of Luck and Timing”.

People who hit the jackpot often ascribe it to their genius or their system.

There was a great study where people were given the same leadup of a man & woman in a dating encounter.

At the end, the story given could bifurcate into a scenario where it either ends romantically or she is dragged away and raped. Startlingly enough, participants in either end scenario tended to attribute either outcome as having been an inevitable consequence of the things the woman did. Despite the fact the scenario was constructed such that the actions of the woman were irrelevant it was just luck whether she was facing a rapist or Mr. Right.

People work from the outcome and RATIONALIZE backwards.

LEO - USE YOUR GOD GIVEN BRAIN - EVERYONE HAS ACCESS TO THE 7 ITEMS THOSE RICH GUYS SAY HELPED THEM SUCCEED.

WHAT ABOUT THE REST OF THE 315 MILLION AMERICANS...WHY AREN'T THEY FILTHY RICH TOO? THEY HAD THE EXACT SAME "STRONG REGULATORY ENVIRONMENT", AND EVERYTHING ELSE ON THAT LIST.

Not that you understand logic Abe, but I think the point was that the government is a necessary condition for success but not that it's a sufficient condition for success.

ie:

Success implies that the support of government was received, but the support of government does not imply success.

Mr. Marcus,

Government is a necessary condition for success? Is that like AIR is necessary for success. Or food is necessary for success?

Please elaborate, I don't understand YOUR logic. Last time I checked, governmental agencies, strong regulations and the like, were roadblocks to success. Hurdles that needed to be overcome.

Robust system or roads and mass transit? Thats government SUPPORT for success? Again, that same SUPPORT was recieved by ALL THE COMPANIES AND BUSINESSES THAT FAILED.

Oh poor me, I coulld NEVER SUCCEED AT ANYTHING WITHOUT MY CARING AND SUPPORTIVE GOVERNMENT. Is that what you actually think???

Does the government put up the capital?
Does the government take the risks?
Does the government make the tough decisions?
Does the government put in the hours?
Does the government put up with all the problems?
Does the government help make payroll?
Does the government hire the employees?
Does the government manage the employees?
Does the government defend junk lawsuits filed by the employees?
Does the government pile on regulations?
Does the government have a blizzard of laws, codes, rules and standards of practice which must be complied with?
Does the government have stiff penalties for lack of compliance?
Does the government assist in the payment of any fees, charges, permits, assessments or taxes from any town, city, county or any other jurisdiction?
Well does it?

In my experience success is something individuals, or groups of individuals, create on their own, in spite of the government.
I'm not saying we don't need government and roads and the internet (Thanks Al Gore!!). We do need government. But success is a personal accomplishment, not something government created or assisted with.

So again? What support did the government provide that allowed success to blossom?

Honest Abe says

So again? What support did the government provide that allowed success to blossom?

The government wrote the constitution, and set up the most free market ever known on this planet.

You can't have a free market without government

CBEO - Government didn't write the constitution. Men who fought for their freedom from oppressive government wrote the constitution, so that men would be free FROM oppressive government.

The free market hasn't been free for approximately 100 years. You can't have a free market WITH government, the pendulum has sung way too far to the un-free side.

(And yes, you need laws to prevent poison from being in food, and you need teachers, and roads, and police. What you don't need are a bunch of busy body liberals micro managing every aspect of everyones personal and business life from cradle to grave). There, I said it.

CBOEtrader says

You can't have a free market without government

You're wasting your time. Abe is a bot programmed that complete anarchy is the correct route to eventual Paradise.

Honest Abe says

What you don't need are a bunch of busy body liberals micro managing every aspect of everyones personal and business life from cradle to grave

I agree with this statement in the same way I agree that we don't need a bullet in the head.

Here's the thing dude. You talk in such extremes, that you don't end up communicating unique content. Sometimes your posts read like the front cover of a Ron Paul book. Bullet points don't tell you much-- Thats why the author writes the whole book.

Forum debate tips (I think we should start this as its own thread)...

1)Don't speak in hyperbole. Saying "OBAMA is the WORST EVER" is a waste of time. Saying "Obama screwed big time when when he XYZ" combined with some supporting evidence, perhaps a historical perspective, etc... might prompt interesting discussion-- which is why we are all here, right?

2)Try to find common ground before pointing out where you disagree. Showing you can relate to where another is coming from will open their mind to your ideas (as well as your mind to their ideas).-- Again, this just makes for a more interesting discussion.

3)Namecalling often makes you appear as whatever you accuse the other to be.

I'd love to hear more tips from those that frequent forums to discuss/learn, rather than to flame.

Honest Abe says

The free market hasn't been free for approximately 100 years

Perhaps, but this is still hyperbole lacking content.

There's no such thing as a completely free market...and every industry is a different shade of grey.

If you want to make this point, try showing specific changes and their impact on an industry. Or perhaps compare a free (er) version of an industry compared to a more controlled version.

For instance, the enormous success of silicon valley is a potential case study for the power of a free market. Technology, the internet, etc... have all been relatively unregulated compared to our more mature industries. Thus, the barriers to entry have often been nonexistent. This resulted in Bill Gates, Sergey Brin, and Zuck to all start companies using little more than the power of their own innovative minds-- creating massive wealth and thousands of jobs for Americans. (Though it should be pointed out that the government shoud NOT stand idly by and let MSFT influence monopoly power.)

Honest Abe says

What you don't need are a bunch of busy body liberals micro managing every aspect of everyones personal and business life from cradle to grave).

Fiscal liberals only want to micro-manage corporation's businesses from cradle to grave. Social conservatives are the ones who want to manage people's personal business from cradle to grave.

Those who are social liberals and financial conservatives want neither.

If social conservatives are the one's who want to manage peoples personal lives, why are the sponsors of most of the bills and legislation democrats???

Honest Abe says

If social conservatives are the one's who want to manage peoples personal lives, why are the sponsors of most of the bills and legislation democrats???

OK, but I need more specifics before I am convinced. If I am understanding you post correctly you are implying that every bill manages peoples personal lives with equal weight. So, whoever is introducing more bills is managing our personal lives more. That correct?

OK, to finish off your very convincing argument, please:
1. Demonstrate that Democrats actually do sponsor more legislation.

2. Demonstrate that either:
a. All legislation equally managers peoples personal lives; or
b. Legislation sponsored by Democrats is more heavily weighted to manager peoples personal lives.

NOTE: One off examples do not count, we need to view the entire data set objectively to come to a conclusion.

Thanks.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/inside-politics/2012/may/8/house-vote-trayvon-amendment/

Democrats don't want anyone to be able to defend themselves. Call 9-11 (dial-a-prayer) and let someone else defend you. When seconds matter, they'll be there in just a few minutes, if they get the address correct.

Selling homemade baked goods banned in MA (D)

Winter sledding banned in NY (D)

Tossing football at beach in CA illegal (D)

Lemonaid stand violates law in GA (D)

Flying American Flag by vet banned in MI (D)

Saying prayer at football game ruled illegal in NE (D)

Try paying attention. This kinda crap by Dumb-o-crats isn't that hard to notice.

Bullshit on you. It says that footballs and frisbees are allowed "UNDER CERTAIN CONDITONS". Yea, its ok to toss them on Tuesdays and Thurdays, between 7:45 am to 11:00 am, if and only if the weather is clear and sunny, and the tide is at a low-low condition. Under all other conditions its illegal.

If the law is violated, you get a $1,000 fine, 10 days in county jail, 30 days community service, and a real probation officer.

Zev Yara-sloth-ski is a (D) isn't he?

Honest Abe says

If social conservatives are the one's who want to manage peoples personal lives, why are the sponsors of most of the bills and legislation democrats???

I don't know what you are referring to here. Are you saying that most legislation is sponsored and passed by Democrats? If so, I'd be more concerned about what the legislation is rather than how many bills there are. Some legislation like the USA Patriot Act and NDAA are extremely intrusive and oppressive. Other bills are innocuous.

Now both Democrats and Republicans have voted for both evil acts, but Republicans have overwhelmingly given greater support for both acts as shown by the following.

NDAA Votes
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/112-2011/h375

The Tea Party and the Patriot Act Vote

http://www.themonkeycage.org/assets_c/2011/02/teapartypatriotact2-305.html

Roll Call: How Tea Party in House voted on Patriot Act, May 2011

Yep, the Republicans, especially the self-proclaimed Tea Party voted overwhelmingly to undermine the Constitution and manage people's personal lives. Now, if the Tea Party actually believed in any of the crap they claim to, you know like small government, they would have rejected everything about the Patriot Act and NDAA, and I would be singing their praises. However, the didn't. The small government party that fears the overwhelming executive power that the negro Obama has usurped in an unprecedented power grab, is a-okay with the government kidnapping, torturing, and raping people they claim might be terrorists, but have no accountability if they're wrong.

And that's why I can't take Republicans or the Tea Party serious when they claim to want small government. Every chance they get, they make government bigger and scarier. I actually do want small government. I want the government to have less money, less power, less leeway, more transparency, more accountability, and more oversight by us citizens. I want the government to fear the people because the only alternative is for the people to fear the government. I say the government shouldn't have any power that we the people don't explicitly give it. But that's not what the Republicans and the Tea Party want. It's clearly not what they want.

The thing is, if the Republicans actually believed the things they claim to believe, they would be an entirely different party. And I would support them. But they don't. It's all lies and hypocrisy and has been since Reagan.

The Republicans believe in only one thing: keeping the poor and middle class in place so that the uber-rich can live dedicate lifestyles. Republican politicians don't believe in rugged individualism, hard-work, earning your income and keeping it, free markets, or competition. All of those things would hurt the uber-rich who have nothing to gain from entrepreneurship and everything to lose if someone makes their monopolies obsolete.

Now that doesn't mean I like the Democrats at all. I think they are absolutely full of shit, corrupt, and greedy. But their corruption and greed is of the normal political type. The level of bat-shit crazy, insatiable greed and corruption and sheer evilness of the Republicans over the past 30 years makes the Democrats look like My Little Ponies in contrast. As bad as the Democrats are, they aren't nearly as vile and despicable as the pro-torture, pro-tyranny Republican Party.

Things have gotten so bad over the past 30 years with the Republican Party that it is now irredeemable. The only chance for fiscal responsibility is for the Republican Party to utterly die and a new party to be formed that has nothing to do with the people who were in the Republican Party. I mean none of the racists, none of the Jesus-freaks, none of the war-mongerers, and none of the fiscal parasites that have no problem destroying the economy to make a quick buck.

A true small government, low tax, low spending party would have to be made of people with a strong ethical backbone and fiscal responsibility. If such a party were formed, many "fiscally conservative Democrats" would leave that party for the new one. In fact, I think the only thing holding the Democratic Party together is opposition of the bat-shit crazy Republican Party. Democrats are basically everyone who isn't an extremist nutcase hell-bent on turning America into a mix of lawless corporations and a theocracy. Without the Republicans, the Democratic Party would shatter from its differences and internal disputes. We could end up with three or four parties.

Honest Abe says

Selling homemade baked goods banned in MA (D)

Winter sledding banned in NY (D)

Tossing football at beach in CA illegal (D)

Lemonaid stand violates law in GA (D)

Flying American Flag by vet banned in MI (D)

Saying prayer at football game ruled illegal in NE (D)

Try paying attention. This kinda crap by Dumb-o-crats isn't that hard to notice.

Assuming those things aren't out of context, I would disagree with all of those policies and I would call their proponents idiots and sleezebags. Do you have links about each of those so I can read the whole issue and provide meaningful feedback?

In any case, none of these things even approaches the level of having electrodes attached to your genitals, being sexually molested by the TSA, having nude pictures of yourself taken without your consent, having your phone, email, and bank account tapped without warrant, and a host of other violations that Republicans love.