patrick.net

how long an engine & car lasts also depends on HOW it's driven NOT how long it's been driven.

Many people judge a car by it's mileage but very few judge it based upon the MANNER it was driven in it's mileage.

After a professional car race where the car has only been driven say 500 miles...

The entire engine needs to be rebuilt, the transmission is ready to fall apart, the brakes are completely gone, the tires are trashed, the suspension is no good, the wheels need to be aligned, rotors changed, drive train needs replacement...

The car is basically garbage since the repair costs would exceed making it worthwhile to repair.

Just because a car has low mileage does not necessarily mean it has a longer life left and vice versa.

Wear & tear is going to happen from use but that wear in the mechanical parts can very easily be expedited through a more aggressive and demanding manner which pushes the mechanical parts more.

Perfect Example of a 1964 Car Lasting 500,000 miles

http://www.youtube.com/embed/oJ-bKnWfYO4

Bottom line: Never buy a car that has been used by some young teenager or someone who has likely to have abused the thing or a car that gives reflags of being raced or used in a aggressive manner.

zzyzzx says

A Versa is significantly smaller than my Escort and doesn't have the cargo carrying capability. A Scion tC would be needed to be equivalent. However, the gas mileage of a tC sucks, and it's not made in USA.

Your Escort is based off of a Mazda. Hardly an American car.

edvard2 says

When I was a kid in the early 80's you were lucky if a car made it to 100,000.

Robber Baron Elite Scum says

how long an engine & car lasts also depends on HOW it's driven NOT how long it's been driven.

Baloney to both. Clean oil determines engine life since leaded gas has been phased out. Cars went 100k when using leaded gas. When the switch to unleaded happened in the early to mid 70's engines started lasting 200-300k easily. Lead deposits were very hard on rings and oil. Oil was filthy in 500 miles using leaded gas.

I change oil every 3k. I drove a 69 fairlaine to 220k till rust killed it, a 79 fiesta to 290k till ex fiance rear ended a van full of greeks (you can't make this stuff up), and an 86 5.0 mustang to 270k till I moved overseas and had to sell it. None were burning oil. The mustang had lots of hard running, including many, many runs at raceway park in englishtown. That car was like owning an anvil. The only thing I ever replaced in 15 years was brake pads (lots, fox mustangs had crappy brakes), clutch (twice), water pump (once), alternator (once), fuel pump (once), shocks/struts (once), hoses(twice), battery(?), and starter(once). Pretty damn good for a reworked fairmont econobox.

The distribution model of cars is outdated for most urban people's needs. Here in austin we have a bunch of small smart cars called "car 2go" in the city where you can rent them by the minute.

I'd sell my car and use them if my boring job was within walking/biking distance, then just rent a car for night / weekend things.

edvard2 says

zzyzzx says

A Versa is significantly smaller than my Escort and doesn't have the cargo carrying capability. A Scion tC would be needed to be equivalent. However, the gas mileage of a tC sucks, and it's not made in USA.

Your Escort is based off of a Mazda. Hardly an American car.

It's hard to determine these days what nationality a car is given where parts are made, manufacturing is and of course how the company is incorporated.

The new Chrysler are actually made in Windsor Ontario. A fair amount of cars were based off of others as chassis were standardized on a platform (delta I think was one by gm)

An argument can be made as to why they didn't motorcycles. Heck diesel ones can have sky high gas economy, forget about 40....try 100+.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_motorcycle

edvard2 says

Your Escort is based off of a Mazda. Hardly an American car.

It's based off the previous Escort AND a Mazda Protege. The engine is made in Michigan of a Mazda redesign (that sucked) and the same JATCO automatic transmission that several auto companies use. The car itself was assembled in Michigan. Having had the previous Ford Designed Escort as well, I liked the Ford version better, since it didn't drop valve seat like mad, like the Mazda version did. That and the Ford version had easily replaceable heater cores (a common problem on these cars). The Escorts that came after mine (2007-2003) had nothing from Mazda in them, which all by itself should tell you something.

I think cars suck big time and I ride my bike literally triple the miles I drive a car in a year. In my area lots of super fat and lazy people drive huge SUVs to go and get Dunkin Donuts, Bud Light and scratch tickets. They act as if they own the roads and are on important missions in their pig wagons. Now and theyn we have arguments and I enjoy smashing their cars with my bike lock if they piss me off.

Last year I bought my wife a 2011 Prius which is nice. I have an Infiniti which is dumb, I hate it, birds like to shit on it. We buy Toyota Matrix cars for our employees and give them iPhones and gps track them to make sure they are not driving around wasting gas or buying donuts.

I think more folks should telecommute and get rid of their cars. And big trucks and SUVs should only be sold to people with construction licenses who can prove they have work and a real need for a purpose built vehicle like that.

Also we have bought all of our personal and company cars with cash since 1998. We have one Nissan Versa, three Matrix, one Prius and my Infiniti. Cheap, low miles or new, Japanese made and all cash purchase is the only way to buy if you buy at all. If you live in the city you don't need a car. This is a simple topic.

Icabod says

And big trucks and SUVs should only be sold to people with construction licenses who can prove they have work and a real need for a purpose built vehicle like that.

Disagree.

That would be unconstitutional.

Rest of your posts I agree with. +1

Icabod says

If you live in the city you don't need a car. This is a simple topic.

Agree. +1

You can always buy a moped with a 49cc that does 100mpg for only $2,000 which can be driven with a regular driver's license.

The insurance will only be at most $600 a year and the gas at $600 a year.

That's $1200 a year for insurance and gas. Just add in another $200-300 for maintenance to be safe but I doubt the maintenance would be that much. Maybe $100.

You can fit that 49cc moped in your apartment in Manhattan. It's lightweight, small and can easily be put inside.

So NO parking expenses (except if you are going around manhattan to work/shop and need to park. But you may even be able to take the scooter inside depending on the employer.)

So $2000 plus the tax for purchase price. Then $1300-$1500 the most for gas, insurance and maintenance for the scooter. Maybe even less than that,

Not bad at all. Considering if you buy a piece of shit car for $2000 and then pay $$200-400 a month for gas, $100 a month insurance (probably more), expensive parking cost and your maintenance costs are sky high because it has a shit load of problems.

But than again... You most likely do not need a car in the city. Most people don't at all and it's really expensive to keep a car in the city.

It's a headache to drive around as well and then find parking to wherever the hell you are going.

I guess a bike and public transportation would be best. Maybe a moped possibly if spending just a little more would not be a problem. Only problem is that mopeds are stolen a lot and parking may also be just as hard.

I wish public transportation was quicker and more convenient in Los Angeles, but cars are unfortunately very necessary. The only thing that stops me from riding a moped or motorcycle is knowing that I'll one day be run over and killed by a wannabe actress texting and rushing in her SUV to her audition for the role of bimbo #4.

So 9 years ago I bought a 1997 Camry.

The car itself cost me $4,000.

Then right off the bat, spent $1,017.33 on tires, timing belt, PCV valve, etc. etc. etc.

I keep repair records and in the last 9 years have $6,540.99 for parts, maintenance, registration fees, etc.

Not bad I guess, although higher than I would have guessed before I ran the numbers. My "gut" doesn't account for the battery here, the timing belt and water pump there, etc. etc. On the one hand I put on new struts last year which most people wouldn't bother with on old car, on the other hand I did it myself so it was cheapish. I could have saved more here by not fixing the AC when it broke, or letting it continue to leak oil all over the street, but while I don't need a pretty ride I like everything working 100%.

The average American drives 13,476 miles per year. I drive mainly for shopping & road trips which equates to 24% less than average American. I'm not going to sum up 9 years of gas. I did have the last 2 years in a spreadsheet some rough extrapolation gives gas expense of $11,928.51

So looking at a 9-year total cost of $23,486.83, no inflation corrections applied just summing up the numbers.

Thought this might put things in perspective. A "cheap" car can fool you, all that other stuff really adds up over time.

Robber Baron Elite Scum says

Icabod says

And big trucks and SUVs should only be sold to people with construction licenses who can prove they have work and a real need for a purpose built vehicle like that.

Disagree.

That would be unconstitutional.

Rest of your posts I agree with. +1

Member of Banking Aristocracy

Not exactly unconstitutional. In several states there's a Dodge truck that is not allowed to be sold due to diesel emissions. CA, MA, ME etc
here's a forum where they kinda found it
http://www.ramforum.com/f45/built-ca-7202/

There's nothing in the constitution that specifically states that everything in all states is legal everywhere. States have different laws with say...alcohol, fireworks, buying a gun etc.

Let's not also forget that California has a bit of a sway to things nationwide. If CA puts those little tags of "This has been determined in the state of ca to cause cancer" they put it on all of them since the cost is too high to make two different versions..which generally creates lower sales.

Vicente says

Not bad I guess, although higher than I would have guessed before I ran the numbers. My "gut" doesn't account for the battery here, the timing belt and water pump there, etc. etc. On the one hand I put on new struts last year which most people wouldn't bother with on old car, on the other hand I did it myself so it was cheapish. I could have saved more here by not fixing the AC when it broke, or letting it continue to leak oil all over the street, but while I don't need a pretty ride I like everything working 100%.

I'm about to replace all 4 struts (using quick struts) on a 2000 Camry. I'm doing this because the rear struts are bad and that's causing tire damage. So when I'm done, this person is going to need 2 new tires as well (I'll have those put on the front of the car though). Then I'm going to do a timing belt/water pump since that's also still all original (it's a 4 cylinder Camry and has something like 110K - 120K miles on it). I assume that you did all of this yourself? There is plenty of room in the engine bay (relatively speaking) so even doing the timing belt doesn't look too bad (even though I've never done one before).

nw888 says

I wish public transportation was quicker and more convenient in Los Angeles, but cars are unfortunately very necessary. The only thing that stops me from riding a moped or motorcycle is knowing that I'll one day be run over and killed by a wannabe actress texting and rushing in her SUV to her audition for the role of bimbo #4.

Isn't LA too spread out for public transportation to be effective???

zzyzzx says

I assume that you did all of this yourself?

Haha no.

RockAuto I think it was I got the Monroe QuickStruts from, when they were running buy 4 get one rebated so the parts were affordable. I could handle the QuickStruts after some study of the Haynes manual and determination, took me about 2 days though all told. I've done some of the other single easy fixes like replacing the radiator, rotors & brakes, etc.

When it comes to a pile of fixes like timing belt, water pump, and resealing everything I find a mechanic. The AC I probably should have just worked through a delete, and suffered through occasional hot days. But I elected to fix it for family comfort, and AC repair is stupid expensive out here I think it wound up being $800-$900. Whoops it seems I missed that one when totalling up the repairs above, so that figure is higher still.

I'm up to 227K miles. The engine itself is I think nearly indestructible. It's all that accessory stuff around it that costs you on repairs.

No matter how I think I have a "cheap" car, DIY savings, drive less & bike more, it still costs more than I thought.

Icabod says

In my area lots of super fat and lazy people drive huge SUVs to go and get Dunkin Donuts, Bud Light and scratch tickets. They act as if they own the roads and are on important missions in their pig wagons.

It sounds like you live near where I live. :-)

John Bailo says

Portable computers cost $1,000 for four pounds, equivalent to $250 per pound.

That's why computers aren't sold by the pound. Ground beef is sold by the pound.

wthrfrk80 says

Icabod says

In my area lots of super fat and lazy people drive huge SUVs to go and get Dunkin Donuts, Bud Light and scratch tickets. They act as if they own the roads and are on important missions in their pig wagons.

It sounds like you live near where I live. :-)

You shouldn't eat donuts. Bad for ya.

I don't drink beer very often, only if I'm out for lunch with people I work with and they're all having a beer with their burger. Even then, it's a good microbrew. We have plenty of that here.

Vicente says

So looking at a 9-year total cost of $23,486.83, no inflation corrections applied just summing up the numbers.

Thought this might put things in perspective. A "cheap" car can fool you, all that other stuff really adds up over time.

That's about $200 per month. Some people pay that much for cable tv. Having freedom to go when and where you want at any time is well worth $50.00 a week.

Vicente says

So looking at a 9-year total cost of $23,486.83, no inflation corrections applied just summing up the numbers.

Thought this might put things in perspective. A "cheap" car can fool you, all that other stuff really adds up over time.

I can only imagine what the costs would have been if you had bought a $80,000 Mercedes Benz.

This post confirms what I believe to be true...

That cars have become overpriced pieces of junk.

And the costs just to keep the damn thing running is MORE than what it cost you to buy the god damn thing...

Even Toyotas are expensive. They are much less so than many other cars but still expensive...

bob2356 says

That's about $200 per month. Some people pay that much for cable tv.

Which is a lot. People actually pay that much for cable? lol

Waste of money. TV today is no longer entertaining. It's just a bunch of nonsense like jersey whore and some other dumbed down garbage.

Most entertainment found on TV can be had for FREE on the internet.

Nobody watches TV all that much anymore. Waste of time too...

bob2356 says

Having freedom to go when and where you want at any time is well worth $50.00 a week.

It's nothing new... It's an old technology.

Most people NEED that convenience because of jobs and how the world works. You buy something online today, how does it come?

Through Fedex, UPS or USPS truck...

The old days of walking to your local brick & mortar store right in your town is OVER... Cars are not a luxury anymore and they shouldn't be costing as much as they do.

People also don't seem to bike. I hardly seem to see that many people biking. I remember even in the 90s, I saw plenty of people biking even though cars had been available for such a long time even till then and the gas prices weren't as bad.

But nowadays with gas prices much too high...

These spoiled rotten whining and complaining FAT fucking Americans always love to bitch about the gas prices while they drive a huge fucking v8 SUV... I hardly ever see anyone ride a bike. Very rarely do I see someone besides a illegal mexican and hardly see those either.

bob2356 says

That's about $200 per month. Some people pay that much for cable tv.

Some people also pay that much for cigarettes so they can inhale carcinogens and watch themselves die slowly.

Regardless... It's a waste of money.

I think I paid $15,200 for my brand new 2003 Honda Civic LX. I put 50% down and financed the rest. I paid the car off in two years. So far I put on new Front tires, want replaced the front breaks, timing belt, water pump and oxygen sensor. I'm just reaching 120k miles now.

As for old technology, you could pretty much say the same thing about concrete. It's been around since the roman empire, it should be dirt cheap it so outdated technology. But good luck getting a concrete guy to install your sidewalk or new driveway for next to nothing using this argument.

TechGromit says

But good luck getting a concrete guy to install your sidewalk or new driveway for next to nothing using this argument.

The way concrete is made requires extremely extensive hard labor.

Most cars are not hand-made and assembled. They are made under as much automation as possible in a computerized factory with as little human involvement as can be possible.

Comparing concrete to cars is not something you can compare.

rootvg says

wthrfrk80 says

Icabod says

In my area lots of super fat and lazy people drive huge SUVs to go and get Dunkin Donuts, Bud Light and scratch tickets. They act as if they own the roads and are on important missions in their pig wagons.

It sounds like you live near where I live. :-)

You shouldn't eat donuts. Bad for ya.

I don't drink beer very often, only if I'm out for lunch with people I work with and they're all having a beer with their burger. Even then, it's a good microbrew. We have plenty of that here.

Best thing about riding your bicycle 26 kilometers (16 miles) round trip to work every day like I do: you can consume all the junk food and beer you can handle, with no repercussions!

Robber Baron Elite Scum says

Most cars are not hand-made and assembled. They are made under as much automation as possible in a computerized factory with as little human involvement as can be possible.

That is VERY true. It should be noted that some believe that somehow everyone laid off from a auto plant was mechanic..that's not true.

Doing the same things over and over again as a job isn't exactly that sophisticated.

http://www.topnews.in/indian-auto-plants-way-world-top-10-2258436
see anyone working on the lines? not so much.

Actual hand made cars are much more expensive. If someone wanted one it would be on a 100K+ level. At that point relationships with the mechanic are much higher. I wouldn't want to drive something that if a guy sneezed a lug nut was turned too tight and causes an accident etc.

To note I've heard that pinball machines actually have about 10,000 parts. There are hobbiest kits out there for those that want to get into it but it costs the same (10K). Why someone would pay 10k for something to put together with 10k pieces is beyond me.

Michinaga says

Best thing about riding your bicycle 26 kilometers (16 miles) round trip to work every day like I do: you can consume all the junk food and beer you can handle, with no repercussions!

Exactly. Since I started riding, I eat a full breakfast, snack (usually fruit), lunch, snack, dinner - usually 2-3 helpings, and a root beer float before bed (double scoop ice cream) !!

Commute of about 17 miles round trip.

"Look ma, no love handles !"

Robber Baron Elite Scum says

bob2356 says

That's about $200 per month. Some people pay that much for cable tv.

Some people also pay that much for cigarettes so they can inhale carcinogens and watch themselves die slowly.

Regardless... It's a waste of money.

Member of Banking Aristocracy

Who appointed you spending czar? Who cares what people spend money on, it's not a waste in their opinion so who are you to judge? I don't smoke or even own a tv, but I consider the money I spend on cars well worth while.

2001 Honda Civic HX with 152K miles. My plan is to get a 2013 Prius C next year. The model I'm interested in costs a little over $20K and gets 50+ mpg.

I think plug-in's are not worth the money. Same for all electric cars.

jvolstad says

2001 Honda Civic HX with 152K miles.

Keep the civic - those HX models were great little cars.

bob2356 says

Robber Baron Elite Scum says

bob2356 says

That's about $200 per month. Some people pay that much for cable tv.

Some people also pay that much for cigarettes so they can inhale carcinogens and watch themselves die slowly.

Regardless... It's a waste of money.

Member of Banking Aristocracy

Who appointed you spending czar? Who cares what people spend money on, it's not a waste in their opinion so who are you to judge? I don't smoke or even own a tv, but I consider the money I spend on cars well worth while.

Word.

Not everything in life needs to be a financial investment. Some things are emotional investments that bring us happiness. Vacations, nice houses, furniture, clothing, etc.

One of my cars costs me $2980 per month. It's worth every penny to me.

joshuatrio says

Keep the civic - those HX models were great little cars.

Mine has the CVT as well. I like that tranny.

Go get enough people to build you a decent vehicle that will run well, have decent gas mileage, and require no maintenance and just see how cheap it will be.

Not a single illegal who stands in front of a home depot all day long knows how to build an engine, but every single one of them can build you a house. Just to put things in perspective.

SiO2 says

You can get a brand new Nissan Versa for $11k msrp.

I see 14,500 ish with the automatic being $15,770, and it's made in Mexico.

Nissan Versa S sedan starts at $10,990 + destination of $780.
It's surprisingly well equipped. A/C, airbags, skid control, ABS. CD player, trip computer. But, crank windows and locks.
Airbags, skid control, abs are required nowadays, but some of the other low end cars have a/c as an option.

Auto transmission (CVT) brings the msrp to $13,120. but that's hardly a requirement. The manual is likely more durable too, assuming no jackrabbit starts.

The hatch version starts at 14,570, but the sedan is cheaper.

The Versa is surprisingly roomy. I don't imagine that it's much fun to drive, or particularly luxurious, but not everyone cares about that.

at least you know when you buy a car that it is a depreciating asset not like houses which everyone thought was an appreciating asset and now is to be proved wrong.

Yes you can use them to write checks get cash etc. BUT it is a huge masitke!Rip the checks up ASAP they give you 6 months with 0% interest but charge you a fee to cash the check and they know you can't pay it all off in 6 months. They will get thier money from you don't fall into this credit trap!Live debt free! It is a wonderful feeling.

SiO2 says

The hatch version starts at 14,570, but the sedan is cheaper.

Personally I would never buy a car that doesn't have a hatchback. One of the reasons I keep my 1995 Ford Escort is that nobody makes a 2 door hatchback anymore except the Scion tC, which I also won't buy because it has crappy gas mileage and isn't domestic.

LOL few things can make me laugh where I can't stop laughing that's one fine headline.

I will go into cars in a second. Here, well I have a little knowledge. Having owned a small car-lot and a dealers licence. Which is second only in my opinion than being from Detroit for expertise in autos. I grew up not far from Fisher body and the River Rouge. Dearborn (my birthplace) land of the "potential terrorist" or the "terrorist with potential". Detroit, people in many cases know cars by osmosis. Just something you understand if your from there.

It doesn't take much to take these people on the Robber Barron scum. If they were rich many people consider them so they just might be a handfull then. However in reality they are only thieves exactly as noted. See they steal. In addition usury people are lowlife like pimps and gamblers. I guess some people are in awe of them. I treat them as they are: thieves and lowlife though they would clearly like to be someone else. That goes for that gang out of England to known as the "crown" or "commonwealth". I have no respect for them whatsoever seeing what they have done in places like Iraq and Afganistan. Afganistan which they hold so close. That they are now strip mining for many things setting up huge strip mining operations. It's henious what these people do. Thats fairly obvious to many. Usury people, pimps, gamblers are people that "hustle" others as they make their way through life.

They talk a great deal about humanity and their benevolence of. All their invasion based on their philosophy of being humane making sure religion or religious ideology is part of the philosophy. Of course anyone that isn't religous is using all their senses for the most part if they drop the farce of politics. They understand the opposite. Their mission make sure you believe otherwise and make sure the populace dosen't haul out the guillotine as we outnumber them in great, great numbers. NOW you see why they put so much into it and work so hard at it. The monkeys they hire with their one way "freedom of speech" diatribes. The constant barrage of their goodness and responsible behaviour. Once again you can hardly believe the fast talking people they hire can actually get away with not letting on. However you do catch it when they falter. It's good to remember they are sociopaths. Never help a sociopath because you feel its good manners not to see them embarassed. So in conclusion its not that Robber Barron elite scum has any "humanity" they love to steal from you and from me. I suppose Barron has something to do with being a Barron out of somewhere. Then again who knows?

Once again religious people are taught NOT to use their senses. I suggest you never give up that for any reason including politics. Because belief will thwart your sense quickly. Your sense has to do with survival and what you want at any point in your life. Its for you and not for anyone else. Because when push comes to shove no ones going to help you in life. Not in any concrete way like food or shelter. You will notice religous people stick to the script or what they are taught. They won't go far from that. Similar in many ways to political philosophy. Go outside what they have been taught. They get very, very upset. Its like touching "Warren" on the ear in "Something about Mary" in many respects. Another words its child like. So never believe in Democracy or politics, religion of course. Never believe in your Job or especially your "boss". Your wife or anything else. Even me. Believe your senses. If things don't line up with those then your finely tuned. Another words your senses NEVER line up with ANYTHING. Things SHOULD more correctly, line up with your SENSE. If they don't something fucked up. Discard it. One more thing. In the case of the Robber Barron elite scum. They like to leave things out thus fooling your senses. Or scaring you in some way, debt, or maybe even things of a sexual nature. It's part of their survival. In that case just use your sense. Truth is your sense is far, far better than any televsion, radio or anything they have to thwart ones mind. At that point they shift into overdrive making you think you don't have any sense. Fuck them. They are nuttier than squirrels in a lumber yard to begin with. You can tell by what they do. Most of the programming information they put out betrays that like Rupert Murdoch chasing himself through the media. "WIN" a chance to "slop" with the Obamas. Or some "town hall" diversion.

Some people wonder why I hang around here. Without the flattery. You people use your sense more than many that I have encountered. Completely shucking religous underpinnings they so depend on. I learned about such people as you earlier in life. Some don't understand it. I can't dwell with the stupid. Much less a "believer". Thats why I like this web site. In short without the "religous" foundation the "Robber Barron elite scum" has established they are fucked. They must depend on other ways. If those fail they are really fucked so they work overtime.

Ok back to cars. The technology of course which your computer greatly outstrips is fascinating in a car to some people. In short its like a toy. A car is a toy to many people. They focus on one thing they like about that toy in a car like a radio or GPS and they play with it or admire it. Truth of it is a car has a very short life. The cars built in the 80s last just as long as the ones you pay 3 and 4 times as much for now. I can "rag" any car out in about 3 days. Even brand new. See its the engine. They can take only so much. Gravity will make a car settle even if it sits in the garage without being driven. So those doors may not close just right after a while and things may rattle also. A car has a real life of about 160,000 miles depending on how its driven. 180,000 tops then its just something to drive down the road as you clench and squirm about the things that are "wrong" with it. I say planned obsolence. They really can't do anything about it. However raising the price instead of lowering it for what it is. To keep you in debt is one more trademark of their henious doings. In short a car is something that is great when its new. Something you can drive down the road in terror wondering how your going to make the payments when something goes wrong on the jobbie. You know you have to get it all straight or lose your wheels. Same thing with where you live. Or your food of course. Screw up on the jobbie. With your a lifestyle that is nothing but dependence on that jobbie. Your life flashes before your eyes of course in that moment when you screw up or your caught or you misbehave. People once again that just ain't natural. Don't live in terror. It's easier to put something together on the earth for yourself than you know. Take the first step even those "Robber Barrons" could tell you that and your on your way after you make up your mind to do it.

ArtimusMaxtor says

To keep you in debt is one more trademark of their henious doings. In short a car is something that is great when its new. Something you can drive down the road in terror wondering how your going to make the payments when something goes wrong on the jobbie. You know you have to get it all straight or lose your wheels. Same thing with where you live. Or your food of course. Screw up on the jobbie. With your a lifestyle that is nothing but dependence on that jobbie. Your life flashes before your eyes of course in that moment when you screw up or your caught or you misbehave. People once again that just ain't natural. Don't live in terror. It's easier to put something together on the earth for yourself than you know. Take the first step even those "Robber Barrons" could tell you that and your on your way after you make up your mind to do it.

You are very much right about this.

If the majority of people grew their own food, had no property taxes and we had free energy...

No such thing as poverty could exist except for those who refuse to work or are lazy.