patrick.net

It's so very true... A police friend of a coworker retired at age 45 after 25 years of peaceful suburban work... Made 120k last couple of years doing overtime detail work... Now retired with 80% of 120K for the rest of his life.... At 45!!!

Firefighters, teachers and cops...oh my! What a joke.

Horsehockey! You don't break into the 1% unless your income is over $343,000 a year. I realize that for Fox News people MATH IS HARD but they should try harder, maybe they will even make it through that GED one day.

Why can't fox people ever just tell the story straight without all the histrionics? Yes there is a big problem. So just lay it out without sounding like a 14 year old girl in a hormonal rage. Of course they do have to appeal to the Abe's of the world who seem to only speak in hysterical all or nothing terms so maybe it's understandable.

Average teacher salaries:
CA is the highest in the nation with an average of $55,693 (that's not very much if you consider the cost of living in CA)
South Dakota is the lowest at $32,414.

http://www.educationworld.net/salaries_us.html

Also, being a teacher requires 5 years of education. Most teachers could make more money in the private sector especially math and science teachers.

Cops and Firefighters put their lives on the line.

Is their some abuse, sure but nothing like the greedy scumsuckers that we we on wall street that have sucked the middle class dry.

evilmonkeyboy says

Is their some abuse, sure but nothing like the greedy scumsuckers that we we on wall street that have sucked the middle class dry.

Don't disparage the job creators. Next you'll suggest that they pay taxes on the billions they earn while creating jobs. Sacrilege.

Whenever I hear the ranting about that wealthy 1% I think of Hitler.
The Jews were roughly 1% of Germany in 1940. They were often the wealthy also.
If Steve Jobs knew he would have been fucked out of his money would this have been an incentive or a disincentive to work his ass off?
If Steve Jobs was rich or poor, did it affect your wallet?
No.

This is why I don't get Fox News. Aren't they always touting the republican line defending Wall Street fatcats because they are "job creators"? O.K., so they're bitching and moaning about government employees who make $100,000 a year. But the average CEO of an S&P 500 firm makes like $13 MILLION. So basically they're crying about people who make 6 figures and defending people who make 8 figures. How did America become broke and insolvent? Those fuckers stole all the money.

True indeed says

It's so very true... A police friend of a coworker retired at age 45 after 25 years of peaceful suburban work... Made 120k last couple of years doing overtime detail work... Now retired with 80% of 120K for the rest of his life.... At 45!!!

Wow, you had to create a user name and for the first time post this comment on the forum ? I wonder why ?

What a made up piece of bs.

Same thing in the Fox propaganda about the toll booth guy getting 120,000 for life at 50.

Does the word propaganda mean anything to you ?

The average government employee pension is in the neighborhood of 50K. Actually much less than that because of those who work far less than 30 years.

Are there exceptions and abuses that should be looked into and addressed ? Of course. Should pension spiking be addressed ? Of course.

But that is no reason to condemn all government workers. And blaming government workers for our economic woes is the most laughable propaganda. I'm vicariously so embarrassed and ashamed for the right wing dim bulbs that are gullible enough to buy this tripe.

I am surprised at the hostility on this site. I merely stated a fact yet some people want to attack? I have another coworker who's neighbor retired at 50 after being postal worker. I also have a family member who's retired at 55 with 70% of pay for life... But unlike the cops and toll booth worker, she didn't take advantage of loop holes which calculates pension on inflated overtime work... She was retired after being an executive in the EPA.
If you don't fully understand something, pls don't assume you are right and others are wrong.
I am just disclosing that their is a real problem with pension system of govt employees... Theres a reason why corporations got rid of their pension plans.. They are not sustainable...just like social security.
Marcus, you wonder why? Well, yes, I am a bit bitter that after making 6 figures a year since I was 23 years old, my tax dollars are funding such grand retirement plans for others while I probably still have to work till 70 to retire with such comfort. This is not to discount the great work cops provide to our community... But govt pay has to be inline with economic conditions.

I have an uncle who retired from the LAPD, at 55, and told he gets 70% or 80% (I don't remember which). And a cop from Beverly Hills told me they get a 90% retirement.

Many people are pissed off paying for lavish retirement's for government workers when they can't make ends meet for themselves and their own familys.

True indeed, your tax dollars are not only funding grand retirements for others, its also being sucked up by the financial black hole called "governemnt". You know, that thing thats defined by waste, fraud, abuse, the good ol' boy network of senators and congresscritters, mismanagement, graft, greed, sociopaths, price fixing, collusion, neglegent misrepresentation, corruption, and the like.

But the libs support this type of activity and instead blame all of America's troubles on those who have become successful and provide jobs to others. Hey you stupid libs, if you don't like your job, or someone else who makes money - go start your own business - give your workers everything - earn no profit, and go out of business. Its that simple !!

Honest Abe says

And a cop from Beverly Hills told me they get a 90% retirement.

Unattributed anecdotes are not data on which to base decisions. None of your vague examples are in the 1%.

Economics Teacher: Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?
Simone: Um, he's sick. My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious.

True indeed says

But govt pay has to be inline with economic conditions.

Six figures since 23 ? That's impressive. Then you presumably would have the logic skills to answer this (question with a long preface).

Re: "govt pay has to be inline with economic conditions"

Say that this depression or great recession we are in lasts for several more years. And say that public unions are eliminated and government workers pay benefits have to decrease (btw as a California public school teacher I have had pay cuts every year since 2008).

So say it's 2025, public unions are gone and average govt worker makes way less compared to the private sector than they did in 2007.

Then the economy finally booms, and over a period of time states are doing much better, because they are lean and mean. Govt pensions are practically a thing of the past.

How do government workers then participate in the restored prosperity?

"govt pay has to be inline with economic conditions"

Doesn't this work both ways? How will govt pay be able to go up, with unions gone ?

True indeed says

If you don't fully understand something, pls don't assume you are right and others are wrong.

You and so many other seem to not understand govt pensions. You take examples "I know a fireman who retired at 32 with 3 million dollars per year," to make silly generalizations.

It just bother me that the typical uninformed reader feels like, fuck those public employees, they shouldn't get a pension, paid for by my taxes.

They never stop to consider what the details of the pension were or are, and they have zero understanding of the finance involved. It turns out that if you put away say an average of 15K/year, for 30 years, it grows to an amount that can then be annuitized for thirty years to pay a nice income.

So part of a cop or fireman income (which was agreed to long ago) goes toward such an arrangement. If you made a six figire income since you were 23, and feel you have to work til 70, and you feel envious of the guy that made way less than you, but they put away 15K/year for them, I don't know what to tell you, other than that you clearly were way overpaid.

THe so called unfunded liabilities are not about extravagant benefits as much as they are about politicians not paying their agreed upon contributions to the pension funds.

But yes, isolated cases of pension spiking, or politicians or other getting sweet pensions that are too good exist.

You have to be careful though make generalized inferences from this or leading others to do the same.

Thomas Sowell - That Top 1%
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http://www.youtube.com/embed/Qi8clPrg7kc

What do the 1% do with their Wealth...

Heck.. if you had a billion in cash... what do you do with it to just preserve that "cash on hand" and your wealth.

Govt Insurance is limited to some $250K per acct so that doesnt work.

You lend it to the Govt, like so many Fortune 500 companies do..
keep a small amount for your operating cash.. and give it to the Govt for an IOU (Treasury Securities).. and keep rolling it over upon maturities.. never cashing out...because its far safer than anything else.

So the facts are there per every SEC filing, the Govt already has Trillions of GLOBAL wealth from the top 1% of tax payers --- US Domestic Individuals, US Corporations, and THOUSANDS of Foreigners/Corporations/Governments.

So what does Obama want NOW he doesnt have already...
nickel and dime to death..

what else do you call all this but a Chicago Style Shake Down!

evilmonkeyboy says

Also, being a teacher requires 5 years of education. Most teachers could make more money in the private sector especially math and science teachers.

Cops and Firefighters put their lives on the line.

And the cops and prison guards use their pay to buy lobbyists who work to keep anti-marijuana laws on the books. More lawbreakers, more work.

Its just easier to point the finger when you are a bitter miserable paper pusher who contributed nothing of real worth to society, and doesnt have the nerve to make the changes they need to actually enjoy their life instead of slaving over a desk at a meaningless job. And you don't need good facts to point the finger, just need the old "my friend told me that..."

woppa says

Its just easier to point the finger when you are a bitter miserable paper pusher who contributed nothing of real worth to society, and doesnt have the nerve to make the changes they need to actually enjoy their life instead of slaving over a desk at a meaningless job. And you don't need good facts to point the finger, just need the old "my friend told me that..."

What's your point?

Marcus, I said I was a little bit bitter not envious... From the tone of your posts... I do feel sorry for you... At least I truly enjoy my work and get paid well for it. I feel sorry that although I probably haven't accumulated as much knowledge as you did, the market has paid much more for my IQ and problem solving skills. I just hope that at least you are a good teacher and not one of those bad teachers in the documentary "Waiting for Superman" who can't be fired because of tenure gained thru the wonderful Teachers Union.

In truth, I am worried for the students you teach... Because you are definitely not the type of role model I'd want for my kids... Attacking me with such hostility when i just want to let people know there is such a problem with the pension system.

I don't have much issues with pension as it was intended in concept (even though many cities are now having to cut back pension benefits due to it being unsustainable). It's the fact that a policeman who normally makes 70 or 80K, can retire at age 45, making more money than he averaged before, because he gamed the system last couple of years directing neighborhood traffic around street construction... This just doesnt seem right. Maybe thats part of the reason for the pension being unsustainable...

Do they have some similar loophole for the teacher pension?

True indeed says

It's the fact that a policeman who normally makes 70 or 80K, can retire at age 45, making more money than he averaged before, because he gamed the system last couple of years directing neighborhood traffic around street construction... This just doesnt seem right. Maybe thats part of the reason for the pension being unsustainable...

I don't see that it's hostility that I have problems with this kind of statement. It's an exaggeration, intended to sell anti union, anti government worker propaganda to others. Even if it were true in a 1 in 100 instance of wrong behavior,...okay address that, rather than generalizing.

You can't see that, and yet you claim to have a hgih IQ. That's fine, but since I'm sure you would agree that there isn't any communication going on here I'm done.

But first: pension spiking does not happen with teachers, but it occasionally happens with well connected administrators, and it isn't something I approve of.

True indeed says

ant to let people know there is such a problem with the pension system.

True indeed says

Maybe thats part of the reason for the pension being unsustainable...

One other thing, not that it will fit in well with your right wing dogma.

The pension abuses need to be addressed, but they are a relatively small art of the problem (that do make govt workers the perceived bad guy). Also some municipalities have done some pretty crazy things with pensions.

In most cases here is what has lead to pension problems. A combination of the following factors

1) The stock market returns of the 18 year from 1982 - 2000 were absurdly high. Unfortunately human nature is such that people think these things will continue (see housing bubble). This lead to pension funds doing better than expected, and to state neglecting some of their obligations. "hey the fund is fine, we can skip this years contributions. IT also lead to negotiations of employee contributions being low relative to defined benefits.

2) Later (after 2000) California has not met all of it's obligations. That is they skipped more matching contributions to teachers pensions.

3) PRojected returns in pension funds are still unrealistically high, so when lower projections are made, so called "unfunded liabilities" are projected. (note these are projections that things must change to fund the pensions better, they are not current expenses. If it is said that a pension is so severely undefunded that it is only solvent until 2040, this implies time to change employee/employer contributions and so on.)

These changes will occur, but California is pretty messed up in terms of it's ability to solve such problems.

marcus says

These changes will occur, but California is pretty messed up in terms of it's ability to solve such problems.

yep! the three above are spot on! worst yet, they have since 2000 gambled such prior returns from stock and housing market will return even today.

They havent sobered up! They need to be fired and sent to rehab...

The cost of pensions and retirement would go WAY down if we had a health care system that worked. A big chunk of pension costs are for health care.

1sfrenter says

The cost of pensions and retirement would go WAY down if we had a health care system that worked. A big chunk of pension costs are for health care.

what eventually happens is they send their patients to lower cost countries.. like Latin America, Thailand and India. And many are US trained doctors.. go figure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism

In First World countries like the United States medical tourism has large growth prospects and potentially destabilizing implications. A forecast by Deloitte Consulting published in August 2008 projected that medical tourism originating in the US could jump by a factor of ten over the next decade. An estimated 750,000 Americans went abroad for health care in 2007, and the report estimated that a million and a half would seek health care outside the US in 2008. The growth in medical tourism has the potential to cost US health care providers billions of dollars in lost revenue.

Good article, certainly sums up what most of us known and felt for a long time. People aren't blind, they can see all the pension padding tactics government allows, they can see how these unions are showered with money.

It's how you know someone is going to retire soon, they start working overtime, padding their pension benefits.

Breaking News! Hannity is about to be water boarded on FOX. LMAO