patrick.net

Yes but how about crosswinds? If it can be blown off the road by the first big rig it meets then I guess we'll see if the engineers are right.

Also a tremendous amount of your MPG is in how the car is driven. Are the test conditions representative of real world driving?

Really these guys are bragging they made a car that has about the same mileage as a 1985 Honda Civic HF. Heck I've heard of VW TDIs getting better mileage that that.

I think the 1980's Honda CRX's were 54mpg out of the box. Not sure if a Civic "HF" is the same thing.

Yes. It was the Civic CRX HF:

http://www.mpgomatic.com/2007/10/19/super-cheap-high-mpg-cars-1985/

The safety was of course not up to modern standards but then again I'm not sure how the 800 pound carbon fiber box will fare against a Hummer either

Now here is a 506 lb, 56 MPG car from my parents generation: Not so great on the highway (max speed was 62 MPH) but in the city you could squeeze in dad and three kids

http://www.microcar.org/carspecs/messerschmittkr200.html

New renter says

Yes but how about crosswinds? If it can be blown off the road by the first big rig it meets then I guess we'll see if the engineers are right.

Also a tremendous amount of your MPG is in how the car is driven. Are the test conditions representative of real world driving?

Really these guys are bragging they made a car that has about the same mileage as a 1985 Honda Civic HF. Heck I've heard of VW TDIs getting better mileage that that.

I don't get blown off the road by big rigs on my motorcycle which is a heck of a lot lighter than a car.

Are you comparing mileage apples to apples? Is the 52mpg overall or highway. The civic hf 50 mpg number was highway under the old epa test which gave higher results. Is the 52 mpg number an all up car meeting today's safety standards? Load down an 85 civic with modern safety equipment and the mileage would plummet. My girl friend had a 87 CRX and we never saw 50mpg on the highway in real life. More like 40. Maybe driving eastbound across Kansas with the cruise control set on 55 it would be possible to get over 50.

Ha, I found the article. The car is the Edison2. It's a concept car, nothing more. A very interesting concept car however.The odds of seeing one in production are pretty much zero which is too bad. Looks more like a 4 wheel motorcycle than a practical car. Triple the horsepower and I would buy one. The mileage is 129 highway, not 52.
http://www.edison2.com/

bob2356 says

Triple the horsepower and I would buy one

Why? Most currently produced cars have at least double more than they need. This one is very light and doesn't need nearly as much.

Carbon fiber is extremely expensive. I seriously doubt a car made entirely out of it will be on the market anytime soon. Also- our prius gets 50+ MPG and its got a "boring" steel body.

I don't see what the big deal is.

VW Rabbit Diesels were getting 50+ MPG in the 1980s.

Used ones were cheap enough by the late 1980s that one of my highschool friends drove one.

On the next episode of Ancient Aliens...

The guy in the cheap suit and the big hair says:"The 80s were the golden age of 50 mpg cars.
And they did so with only ONE battery.
They clearly were using Alien technology, because it now take an array of at least 12 batteries to yield 38 mpg."

I want a return to 0-60 times of 14 seconds for better gas mileage!

I am not being sarcastic either.

zzyzzx says

I want a return to 0-60 times of 14 seconds for better gas mileage!

I am not being sarcastic either.

If the homeowner isn't insulted by your offer...you didn't bid low enough!!!

Buy a rabbit diesel, there are some still around.

bob2356 says

Buy a rabbit diesel, there are some still around.

Brings back memories. I bought one for $100 back in the late 90s. It had been "rode hard, put away wet", but I could go 400 miles on a 10 gallon tank (about $10 at the time).

In the mountains of North Carolina I would sometimes get passed by a big rig, though. The car had 52 HP from the factory, and probably 10 of that got soaked up by the air conditioner. It was probably down another 10-15 HP by the time I got my hands on it. Finally had to retire it when it started running on its own oil vapors...(4000 RPM idle gets a bit scary)

But, yes....50 MPG isn't anything to get too excited about.

New renter says

Yes. It was the Civic CRX HF:

http://www.mpgomatic.com/2007/10/19/super-cheap-high-mpg-cars-1985/

The safety was of course not up to modern standards but then again I'm not sure how the 800 pound carbon fiber box will fare against a Hummer either

Now here is a 506 lb, 56 MPG car from my parents generation: Not so great on the highway (max speed was 62 MPH) but in the city you could squeeze in dad and three kids

http://www.microcar.org/carspecs/messerschmittkr200.html

I had a 1985 Honda CRX HF. Put over 250K miles on it. It was great.

bob2356 says

I don't get blown off the road by big rigs on my motorcycle which is a heck of a lot lighter than a car.

Are you comparing mileage apples to apples? Is the 52mpg overall or highway. The civic hf 50 mpg number was highway under the old epa test which gave higher results. Is the 52 mpg number an all up car meeting today's safety standards? Load down an 85 civic with modern safety equipment and the mileage would plummet. My girl friend had a 87 CRX and we never saw 50mpg on the highway in real life. More like 40. Maybe driving eastbound across Kansas with the cruise control set on 55 it would be possible to get over 50.

True anything from '85 probably won't meet modern safety standards but then again I doubt a concept car even has seat belts. Yes that was the old EPA standard - the new estimate has it at 48 MPG highway. That was also with a manual transmission, A/C I'm not sure.

Here are some examples what a modern production car can do when driven frugally (but not hypermiled):

84 MPG in a newer VW Passat diesel and 64 mpg in a Chevy Cruze (gas)

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2012/05/84-mpg-couple-drives-vw-passat-diesel-record-chevrolet-cruze-/1#.T_kq05HYSdA

BTW I took a look at the edison2 - 40 HP? Pack that thing with 4 people and crank the A/C and we'll see if it even gets to 60 MPH.

bob2356 says

Buy a rabbit diesel, there are some still around.

You can of course get a modern VW diesel. Chevy has announced a diesel version of its Cruze to be sold next year and Mazda will be selling the CX-5 with the SkyD diesel engine.

Still if I were in the market for a new-for-me vehicle I'd give a used Nissan Altima Hybrid serious consideration. 33/33 MPG with nearly 200 HP combined, a 20 gal fuel tank and electric A/C (cools even with the engine off). In my area the used Altima hybrids are almost the same price as the regular 4 cyl models.

swebb says

In the mountains of North Carolina I would sometimes get passed by a big rig, though.

I drove mine in the mountains of vermont / upstate NY and everything passed me including guys wearing lyrca on ten speeds. I actually for real had a moose pass me while struggling up an on ramp one time. I liked the car but it was only slightly, very slightly, faster then my 63 VW bus without getting laid in the back (unless you were really small and flexible) potential.

New renter says

BTW I took a look at the edison2 - 40 HP? Pack that thing with 4 people and crank the A/C and we'll see if it even gets to 60 MPH.

That's why I want mine with triple the hp. The green contingent voted that down. Why is everyone saying the edison2 is 50mpg, the web page says 129mpg. That's pretty good. Smart money would three wheel it and certify it under motorcycle rules.

New renter says

Still if I were in the market for a new-for-me vehicle I'd give a used Nissan Altima Hybrid serious consideration.

If I were in the market for a new-for-me vehicle I'd replace my BMW 735 with a 750. If the 735 ever dies (not looking like any time soon) I will do just that. Fuel economy is not my priority at this point in my life.

How about converting your old car to all electric? You can take classes on how to in Novato city college and Santa Rosa college. Infrastructure for these vehicles is improving.

New renter says

nything from '85 probably won't meet modern safety standards

And that is a problem because???
We don't need all that extra crap!

Carolyn C says

How about converting your old car to all electric? You can take classes on how to in Novato city college and Santa Rosa college. Infrastructure for these vehicles is improving.

You will never, ever recoup the cost of the conversion. There's also the 12-16 hr recharge time

zzyzzx says

New renter says

nything from '85 probably won't meet modern safety standards

And that is a problem because???

We don't need all that extra crap!

If the homeowner isn't insulted by your offer...you didn't bid low enough!!!

Until you hit hit by a Hummer that is.

The charge time depends on the charging system. But for a 120v plug from your home takes 8hours, 220 charging station takes 4hrs, and a fast charging station 440v (like the one in Oregon) takes 30 min. You can have a 220 system installed in your home. That is using li-po4 batteries.

Carolyn C says

How about converting your old car to all electric? You can take classes on how to in Novato city college and Santa Rosa college. Infrastructure for these vehicles is improving.

Or have one shipped from Houston.
http://houstonelectriccars.net/component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,1/

Carolyn C says

The charge time depends on the charging system. But for a 120v plug from your home takes 8hours, 220 charging station takes 4hrs, and a fast charging station 440v (like the one in Oregon) takes 30 min. You can have a 220 system installed in your home. That is using li-po4 batteries.

Better but still, whats the total cost for the conversion and what is the range? I doubt most people will be that interested in a car that is tethered to the grid until better infrastructure exists to support electric only vehicles.

Carolyn C says

The charge time depends on the charging system. But for a 120v plug from your home takes 8hours, 220 charging station takes 4hrs, and a fast charging station 440v (like the one in Oregon) takes 30 min. You can have a 220 system installed in your home. That is using li-po4 batteries.

It looks like that 30 minute charge time is specific to the Nissan Leaf which has a very limited range. The math would suggest that a car which takes 8 hours to recharge at 120V and 4 hrs at 240V would take a 2 hrs at 480V. So to get the charge times down to what people are used to (assuming the trend of voltage to charge time continues) the voltage needs to be bumped to about 7.7kV to charge the car in a bit less than 8 minutes. This is about the time it takes to fill a tank of gas. Definitely not the safest option, especially if the recharge station also serves traditional fossil fuels.

A more practical option is to lease the batteries. The battery pack would be standardized with discharged ones exchanged for fully charged units or directly charged when possible. I'm not sure the auto manufacturers will go for this though.

I still like the idea of a diesel electric series hybrid. The diesel motor would be small and tuned to run within a very limited RPM range. The car could be charged directly off the grid or with the range extending diesel motor. I know this idea has been considered and rejected as the costs are not yet economical but someday they will be.

Another solution is a bi fuel diesel/CNG motor. These claim to have the efficiency and power of traditional diesel engines (up to 55% thermodynamic efficiency) with the lower cost and cleaner emissions of CNG fuel. There are companies doing conversions for large trucks and buses now and I am hoping this will trickle down to the consumer market. Both fuels can be renewable as well.

New renter says

Until you hit hit by a Hummer that is.

Because there are so many of those clogging the streets?

Hwy, I use my bicycle as transportation as much as I reasonably can, and still haven't been struck by a Hummer, or any other vehicle.

New renter says

A more practical option is to lease the batteries. The battery pack would be standardized with discharged ones exchanged for fully charged units or directly charged when possible. I'm not sure the auto manufacturers will go for this though.

I would no go for this either. The reason why you want to own the battery is the usurious lease charge would make it almost as expensive as using gasoline.

It works for fleets and is being used in cabs though.

zzyzzx says

Because there are so many of those clogging the streets?

No, but there are plenty of big-rigs that could do some damage...

zzyzzx says

Because there are so many of those clogging the streets?

Fine, an Escalade then or a Ford F150. Perhaps a BMW X5 strikes your fancy instead. In the end an argument with any of these will kill you just as dead as any Hummer.

Hwy, I use my bicycle as transportation as much as I reasonably can, and still haven't been struck by a Hummer, or any other vehicle.

Hey if a bicycle works for you great! I try to walk myself when possible.

The infrastructure has already improved and will continue to improve. I see charging stations at local Walgreen's a and various parking garages. You can search for charging station locations on the net. The range will depend on how many batteries you purchase and the gross vehicle weight. My husband is looking at spending around $10,000 for the kit and batteries. He is aiming for 150mi range. There have been several people who have converted their cars. You can view examples on you tube.

Carolyn C says

The infrastructure has already improved and will continue to improve. I see charging stations at local Walgreen's a and various parking garages. You can search for charging station locations on the net. The range will depend on how many batteries you purchase and the gross vehicle weight. My husband is looking at spending around $10,000 for the kit and batteries. He is aiming for 150mi range. There have been several people who have converted their cars. You can view examples on you tube.

When he did his cost-to-benefit analysis what is the break even point? (in miles and/or years please) What kind of car is he planning to modify a hybrid or a standard car? Will doing the conversion void any part of the warranty? How far is his daily commute? Are heat and/or A/C essential in your climate? I ask the latter as I understand both are considerable drains on the range of EV cars.

With transportation, it's all about energy density and energy storage.

So far, nothing comes close to gasoline and diesel in those regards.

Batteries keep getting better, which is encouraging.

If you want to take a bite out of CO2 emissions, replace coal plants with nuclear plants. No major changes to society needed!

But as we all know, nuclear power has its own issues.

In a electric car conversion, you have to understand that you will be completely taking out the internal combustion components in the car. The electrical components that control things like fuel control and warning lights on the dash will be abandoned or rigged not to go off. 120 Amp-hour batteries carry a full charge to drive about 150 miles/charge depending on your finished gross weight + passengers + accessory draw. The standard design for a 2,000lbs, 150lb person, and no air conditioning will give you more than 150 miles. With more weight, more draw will affect your distance. Your Total System Voltage will give you an idea of how fast you can travel on a flat road. 144V is typical easily achieving 70mph, if not more depending on your drive train. 96V will be about 55mph for a steady lower speed. The current best batteries are Lithium-Phosphate (Li-PO4) because they do not have memory effect like lead-acid. You can then drain your batteries 100% and have the charger periodically charge the batteries when not in use. Cost: The batteries start at $6,700 for an average size sedan >3,000lbs. Battery Balancing System $500. Electric Motors are about $1,600. Motor Controllers are about $1,000. A good variable charger $750. Transmission adapter/Direct Drive $400. DC/DC converter $300. Mounts, gauges, wiring, switches, pedal controls, etc can run another $1,000 depending on aesthetics. Check out www.elitepowersolutions.com for combination components for reliability, warranty, and ease. All this is AFTER you pick your donor car. There are many Ev's that have been made since the 1970's: www.evalbum.com Major decisions depend on if you have an automatic(hard/expensive) or manual (easier/cheaper), or ditching the transmission and go direct drive(needs higher amp components). Direct Drive is used for drag racing and better performance. You also need to understand component placement as you cannot deviate from weight distribution. Note: Most blogs/hobby web sites have out of date information!
Written by James

when are you going to do this conversion. post pics and results, it would be interesting.

Carolyn C says

Cost: The batteries start at $6,700 for an average size sedan

I thought that people tried to use junkyard batteries from a hybrid.
You forgot to mention that these cars normally have a manual transmission

I still prefer to be in a heavy vehicle. It is a matter of physics.

Given a choice, I rather drive something that is 4800lb and 16 mpg than 800lb and 60 mpg.

787 looks good... but I hate to fly in any air-frame with less than 10 years of operating history.