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Public teacher’s high pay is not justified!


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2012 Jul 10, 8:23pm   48,203 views  142 comments

by EconPete   ➕follow (2)   💰tip   ignore  

Many teachers claim their incomes are insufficient. Many times they are not compared to the private sector because most teachers have very little real world, private sector, experience. They do not realize that pension and healthcare benefits that range from $10,000 to $60,000 a year are included in wages. Not including these huge benefits is a falsification of their compensation. Also, teachers have phenomenal job security which is not included in their nominal wages. Truthfully teachers only work about 2/3 of the year which is omitted from the conversation! Not too many private sector jobs get this perk, it’s funny that this is not factored in when looking at wages. Also not many private sector jobs have yearly scheduled pay increases equal or greater than inflation. It is easy to steal more money from tax payers, it is hard to compete to be deserving of those pay raises.

In the business world, an employee or owner brings in a certain amount of revenue to a company. In most circumstances, the compensation they get for their work is between 10%-15% of that revenue. Capital, raw materials, managers, interest, energy, facilities, transportation, and taxes all need to be paid with the other 90% to 85% of the money. So if someone makes $100,000 a year income, under normal circumstances, it is safe to say they bring in about $850,000 to $1,000,000 revenue a year. This shows that the worker is returning their worth to society because people voluntarily spent their money with their business and declared this entity worthy.

Now let’s look at the Public school teacher. In WI, the cost to educate a child per year in the public sector is around $12,000 a year! This is not viable in the private sector because nobody would be able to afford it, but let’s give teachers the benefit of the doubt. Then let’s say they teach 25 kids. 25 times $12,000 is $300,000 revenue a year. 15% of $300,000 is $45,000 a year. Including benefits, a starting teacher in WI makes $50,000 and a teacher with 30 years makes $95,000 with benefits. That is about 30% of revenue! This is all assuming that the $12,000 a year is possible. How many people can afford to pay that? That is why the private sector schooling is so less expensive!

Does anyone know why kids only go to school 2/3 of the year? It is because 120 years ago kids had to work in the farm fields! The public education school system is so outdated because it is restricted from competition! If schools had to compete for students and their funds, maybe then kids would be getting taught. In the private sector, companies don’t just get a geographic monopoly and get their customers handed to them like public teachers do. The private sector has to perform and prove their value to the customers. If they don’t, they will go out of business and those customers will go to succeeding schools. What this country needs is to restore capitalism to the education system. They should force schools and teachers to compete and let the parents decide where they want their own money spent and on what education they desire is best for their children, not some central planner in Washington!

Also one of the biggest detriments to free education is that it is FREE! People do not value things as much as when they have to give up hard earned funds. If parents had to spend even 50% of the cost to educate the child, they would be furious if the kid was not getting a return on their investment. If their kid came home with a C, the parents would express the cost and value of the education and ensure his performance. Now parents don’t even care because they don’t visually see the money being extracted from their paychecks in the form of taxes over the course of their lives. Collective responsibility of education diminishes the parent’s role in requiring value for the services their child should be receiving.

I recently calculated the dollar per hour wage of a 5th year teacher I know. They only work 35 hours a week, 39 weeks a year, which is 1365 hours a year. With a wage of $59,000, which includes benefits, this equals $43.22 an hour. How many private sector jobs offer this pay with all the given perks?

Teachers pay, the truth comes out:
http://www.jsonline.com/watchdog/dataondemand/33534649.html?appSession=17229597071022

Also, watch the movie “Waiting for Superman”.
http://www.movie2k.to/Waiting-For-Superman-watch-movie-482494.html

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23   Pat McGroin Im Irish   2012 Jul 11, 9:57pm  

One of my best friends retired at the age of 54 (30 years) from teaching in Chicago. He lives on a golf course, drives a new Lexus every year, and has a luxury Bus where he vacations to CA in the winters. His pension. He receives a check for $9,000 every month. Why is this right? It's not, but hey, he was in a Chicago union and they are the best at screwing the taxpayers.

24   tatupu70   2012 Jul 11, 10:00pm  

Pat McGroin Im Irish says

One of my best friends retired at the age of 54 (30 years) from teaching in Chicago. He lives on a golf course, drives a new Lexus every year, and has a luxury Bus where he vacations to CA in the winters. His pension. He receives a check for $9,000 every month. Why is this right? It's not, but hey, he was in a Chicago union and they are the best at screwing the taxpayers.

What district did he teach in?

25   freak80   2012 Jul 11, 11:36pm  

I can't imagine a worse job than a public school teacher. It's little more than babysitting for the children of deadbeats. Teachers aren't paid anywhere near enough considering the bullsh*t they have to deal with on a daily basis.

That said, I think the whole concept of mandatory public schooling is a joke. Public education should be "available" but NOT mandatory. At least not mandatory beyond elementary school (learning how to read and do basic math).

There are just too many low-lifes out there clogging up the public school system. They make life miserable for the few who actually want to learn.

And NO, I'm NOT assuming "deadbeats" only means poor black people in cities. I went to a rural high school with mostly white-trash future meth-heads.

Sure, there are a few "good" school districts out there, mainly in well-to-do suburbs, where the percentage of low-lifes is realatively small. But poorer folks who want their children to do well often can't afford to live in those areas.

26   Vicente   2012 Jul 12, 12:07am  

wthrfrk80 says

That said, I think the whole concept of mandatory public schooling is a joke.

Compulsory education exists for a reason. Some parents would be perfectly happy to keep them at home and teach them absolutely nothing and raise savages instead of citizens. Home schoolers exist I need not remind you, but they are required to adhere to teaching the 3 R's.

27   woppa   2012 Jul 12, 12:17am  

I only read half the comments but I felt compelled to say how much I love that this guy econpete just made himself look like a fool.

marcus- gota love when someone tells you how much you are earning and how easy your job is, because they have a friend who told them so!

28   Leecal2   2012 Jul 12, 12:18am  

Econ-
Why don't you do something productive with your life like say, hold your breath forever.

I didn't see where you took into account the work teachers bring home.

29   freak80   2012 Jul 12, 12:19am  

Vicente says

Some parents would be perfectly happy to keep them at home and teach them absolutely nothing and raise savages instead of citizens.

I went to public school with mainly savages. The public schooling didn't seem to have much of an effect.

The Amish don't go to public schools and don't educate beyond 8th grade. How many of the Amish are savages?

30   woppa   2012 Jul 12, 12:24am  

I also find it very tough to believe that someone would tell someone else how much they are collecting from a pension, especially in this political climate, and especially if it was something ludicrous by most standards, even if it is a friend. I suspect most of these "my friend retired at 54 and is collecting 9 grand a month from a public pension!" stories are just that....stories, fabricated to increase the hatred of the villainous of the public sector.

31   Leecal2   2012 Jul 12, 12:33am  

Diane Ravitch's article should not be coupled with a teabag's opinion piece.

Ravitch has seen both sides and her experience is fortified with knowledge.
She knows what she is talking about ......

32   FortWayne   2012 Jul 12, 12:36am  

I certainly do blame teachers unions for a lot of problems with our education today. The low standards, someone did lobby for that. Costs, pension and healthcare retirement obligations that are resembling some sort of out of this world Bernie Madoff fantasy.

I remember when we used to throw money at education, and none of that ever translated into better grades or even trickled down to the students. Just got absorbed by pension obligations, and by bureaucratic administration. And as a parent when I don't think the product that I'm getting is worth paying for... well my attitude is not in favor of our current education system.

I completely disagree with the "seniority system" that they have, which is just meant to completely screw younger members in order to keep the old union elite fat and happy. That's how historically unions operated, like a ponzi scheme... they take from younger members and give it to the elite at the top. Complete immoral subjugation and indoctrination.

Pension problem is much bigger in CA, many union members don't consider it as part of their pay, they only see it as entitlement. Maybe that kind of ignorant attitude will one day go away, CA is bankrupt. Obama bailouts only lasted for 2 years.

33   rdm   2012 Jul 12, 12:47am  

Pat McGroin Im Irish says

One of my best friends retired at the age of 54 (30 years) from teaching in Chicago. He lives on a golf course, drives a new Lexus every year, and has a luxury Bus where he vacations to CA in the winters. His pension. He receives a check for $9,000 every month. Why is this right? It's not, but hey, he was in a Chicago union and they are the best at screwing the taxpayers.

I don't doubt this as I have a cousin who retired from a suburban Chicago district with a pension of over a 100K a year. On the other hand I have a good friend who just retired from a rural district in Il who after teaching for over thirty years with a masters degree was making in the mid forties and had taken cuts in benefits. In Il. where property taxes fund much of the public education and the State's finances are in a shamble, there is a huge disparity from district to district. Are there teachers that make more then they are worth, for sure and there are plenty that are underpaid. It is a profession where a teacher can have such a huge impact on a child's life (both for good and ill) that we just need to pay decent wages and benefits to retain good people and somehow weed out the bad, understanding that for the most part teachers want to do good work in educating our children and therefore need to get paid a decent wage.

34   elliemae   2012 Jul 12, 12:48am  

It's obvious to see why econ pete feels the way that he does. Teachers think they're so smart, standing in front of the room like they do, judging him... judging his children, teaching stupid things like math and languages that they'll never need to know when they grow up. Trying to educate the masses is crazy, considering they might not be able to get jobs (the way things are going in our economy) and should only be taught certain catch phrases like, "would you like fries with that?"

Most of my property taxes go to pay for the school system out here. I live in an area where five kids is a small family, people are out of work and many of them can barely feed their children, yet the pop out more of them and I am paying to educate them. I feel like everyone should pay for kids' education, but if you have a shitload of them you should have to pay more to educate them or have to volunteer so many hours at the school to help out. But not to replace teachers, more like to help with the shit stuff so that teachers can... well, teach.

But econpete makes a point that private schools (or home schooling) are the way to go - right? then you don't have to interact with the 99%, the children learn segregation and how to treat other people with disdain.

Teachers never have to worry about layoffs:
http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/19004432/dekalb-county-schools-face-even-deeper-cuts-teacher-layoffs
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-05-05/california-teacher-layoffs/54767514/1
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/27/cps-set-to-lay-off-1000-t_n_885298.html

Teachers are highly paid (2011):
http://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state/

Teachers make so much money they buy their own supplies, drive nice cars, live in huge houses (which we all know is a sign of wealth), drink starbucks coffee for every meal... They have summers off (except, of course, for the teachers that I know, who work summer jobs to make ends meet), never work overtime, and never have to worry about some parent or child making a huge deal about something stupid.

Teachers are held to a higher moral standard, as if by being a teacher they don't drink, attend bachelor or bachelorette parties, say & do stupid human things, etc. They have complaints filed against them for looking at students wrong, taking away inappropriate materials, flunking the priveledged students, etc. They are treated like crap much of the time, have to follow guidelines set up by non-educators...

I can see why Marcus chose to be a teacher. He's probably sitting on a pile of money right now, glad to be in the public sector rather than making 30% more while working 30% less. As a social worker, I spend 1-3 hours nightly doing paperwork for which I'm not reimbursed. My teacher friends do the same - in fact, sometimes we get together and do our paperwork beside each other. It's a grown up form of parallel play...

35   American in Japan   2012 Jul 12, 12:52am  

Breaking story:

CEO's high pay is even less justified...for companies losing money or getting public bailouts.

36   freak80   2012 Jul 12, 12:54am  

FortWayne says

I certainly do blame teachers unions for a lot of problems with our education today. The low standards, someone did lobby for that. Costs, pension and healthcare retirement obligations that are resembling some sort of out of this world Bernie Madoff fantasy.

Standards are low because they have to be low. There are too many children of deadbeats in our public schools. It's not because of the evil teachers' unions.

FortWayne says

I completely disagree with the "seniority system" that they have, which is just meant to completely screw younger members in order to keep the old union elite fat and happy. That's how historically unions operated, like a ponzi scheme... they take from younger members and give it to the elite at the top.

They seniority system might not be a good thing, but it's not a "Ponzi scheme." It's not a "bubble" either.

Are we starting to call everything a "Ponzi scheme" or a "bubble" after the housing fiasco?

37   FortWayne   2012 Jul 12, 1:05am  

wthrfrk80 says

Standards are low because they have to be low. There are too many children of deadbeats in our public schools. It's not because of the evil teachers' unions.

This is precisely the attitude that kills our education system. Because No, standards shouldn't be low. Deadbeats are not entitled to a diploma upon birth. Diplomas are reserved for those who can demonstrate certain ability.

This is why so many teachers end up taking anti depressants when they see how this system screws children, and how badly this society gets fucked by it.

We shouldn't drag everyone down into low standards stupid equality to match mexican field workers just to make our graduation numbers look good. Best thing our teachers can do for kids who don't perform, is to fail them. Nothing gets a child and a parent involved into education like being told they are losers.

But in this education system low standards are there, so they can secure state and federal funding, which is tied to graduation rates, and pretend everything is fine, when it is not!

38   Tenpoundbass   2012 Jul 12, 1:09am  

FortWayne says

I remember, last year on NPR. (And some NPR shows are just nuts when it comes to liberalism.)

I find it hard to sit through the Lip smacking and throat cracking.
They have a condescending, smug dictation that maximizes this effect, and the audio engineer compresses and EQ's the frequencies to further embellish it. It appears there's a thin line between being eloquent and just grossing people out.

These's Bastards can't describe sitting on a Lake doing a redneck task like Bass fishing with out trying to sound smarter than everyone else.

You're fishing Lake Allawalla get over your self!

39   FortWayne   2012 Jul 12, 1:09am  

wthrfrk80 says

They seniority system might not be a good thing, but it's not a "Ponzi scheme." It's not a "bubble" either.

Are we starting to call everything a "Ponzi scheme" or a "bubble" after the housing fiasco?

What would you call a system that knowingly promises returns that it knows it will never make, all while taking more from new members in order to pay for older existing members.

See the resemblance?

40   freak80   2012 Jul 12, 1:10am  

FortWayne says

They were talking about how everyone should get a diploma regardless of their ability to read and write, because they are entitled to a diploma.

I have a hard time believing NPR would advocate such a thing. If they did, shame on them.

What do lower standards and messages about "equality, entitlements and diversity" have to do with securing federal funding? Schools are generally funded at the state and local level are they not?

41   freak80   2012 Jul 12, 1:13am  

FortWayne says

See the resemblance?

No.

Now the social security system, on the other hand...

42   Tenpoundbass   2012 Jul 12, 1:15am  

wthrfrk80 says

I have a hard time believing NPR would advocate such a thing. If they did, shame on them.

Dude you should tune in some time.
You folks like to chalk people for being pissed off, as to listening to too much Rush or Fox news. You want to get outraged, spend an hour in stop and go rush hour traffic listening to all things considered and fresh air.

Though truth be told I only listen to hear that Scottish contributor from the BBC, with the thick nasal Sottish accent. Secretly I keep hoping he'll say...
"If it's not Scottish it's CRAP!"

43   FortWayne   2012 Jul 12, 1:16am  

wthrfrk80 says

What do lower standards and messages about "equality, entitlements and diversity" have to do with securing federal funding? Schools are generally funded at the state and local level are they not?

A lot of funding is tied to graduation rates. So bureaucrats lower the standards so they can keep the union bosses happy, graduate few more morons, and everyone pretends the system is fine.

44   freak80   2012 Jul 12, 1:20am  

FortWayne says

Because No, standards shouldn't be low. Deadbeats are not entitled to a diploma upon birth. Diplomas are reserved for those who can demonstrate certain ability.

I completely agree. That's why I'm against compulsory public education beyond 8th grade. Deadbeats are deadbeats. Send them to the military or directly to prison (no, I'm not being sarcastic on this one).

45   freak80   2012 Jul 12, 1:22am  

FortWayne says

This is why so many teachers end up taking anti depressants when they see how this system screws children, and how badly this society gets fucked by it.

So why are you attacking teachers for making too much money?

46   freak80   2012 Jul 12, 1:25am  

FortWayne says

A lot of funding is tied to graduation rates.

Is that true? If so, that's insane. Agreed.

47   marcus   2012 Jul 12, 1:26am  

Pat McGroin Im Irish says

One of my best friends retired at the age of 54 (30 years) from teaching in Chicago. He lives on a golf course, drives a new Lexus every year, and has a luxury Bus where he vacations to CA in the winters. His pension. He receives a check for $9,000 every month. Why is this right? It's not, but hey, he was in a Chicago union and they are the best at screwing the taxpayers.

This is a lie.

48   AlexS   2012 Jul 12, 1:34am  

marcus says

The average teacher puts in at least 50 hours per week.

Marcus, that's based on what they (teachers, or as I call them disinformation facilitators) self-report.

It's like asking teenager guys if they have sex - 90% do, 70% with Pamela Anderson.

49   marcus   2012 Jul 12, 1:36am  

FortWayne says

The low standards, someone did lobby for that

It's impossible to describe the degree to which you don't know what you're talking about. It's the most absurd thing that's been said in this entire thread.

It would take someone like Rush, or Glenn or you FW to get from lobbying against testing kids to death, to lobbying for low standards.

Look up "common core standards" soon most districts in the country will actually be using the same (or similar standards) for many reasons, including the fact that if someone moves from one state to antoher, they can expect very simila curriculum.

You might hear years ago of unions lobbying against standardization in and of itself, because they wanted to be trusted to teach well and not be given a prescribed (scripted) canned curriculum. Or you might have heard teachers lobbying against excessive testing.

Both of these are a far cry from lobbying for lower standards. I really do despise the propaganda sellers who say this stuff, and know that there are people out there stupid enough to buy it.

50   freak80   2012 Jul 12, 1:38am  

AlexS says

Marcus, that's based on what they (teachers, or as I call them disinformation facilitators) self-report.

You don't think teachers spend 50 hours per week, mainly filling out bullshit paperwork?

Teachers aren't lazy. They have one of the worst jobs in the world.

That said, I think the public school system is a joke. But its not the fault of teachers.

Without parental involvement, children aren't going to do the work necessary to learn.

51   New Renter   2012 Jul 12, 1:42am  

marcus says

This is a lie.

Probably but can you be sure sure without a lot more info? Given the way systems can be gamed I would not be surprised to discover a very lucky few were able to make out like bandits. For all you know its hush money to keep him quiet about the superintendent and the 4H sheep

52   marcus   2012 Jul 12, 1:47am  

AlexS says

Marcus, that's based on what they (teachers, or as I call them disinformation facilitators) self-report.

I'm a teacher and I put in way more than 50 hours a week. I'll grant you that the 3:07pm - 5:30 pm is not the most productive, whether it be meetings or me working in my room, because I'm kind of burnt out at that time of day. And then there's additional work I take home, which either get's done that night, or becomes more after school work for the next day.

No I said 50 hrs average to factor in PE teachers and others that work a little under 40. I know teachers that put in over 70 because of all the different things they take on, and just the way they are.

53   bdrasin   2012 Jul 12, 1:51am  

wthrfrk80 says

Without parental involvement, children aren't going to do the work necessary to learn.

Hear, hear. I had two parents who would have died of shame if I'd dropped out of high school and wouldn't let me blow off schoolwork (and I was certainly lazy and shortsighted enough to have done it if I could have gotten away with it). That made more of a difference than any of my teachers.

54   marcus   2012 Jul 12, 1:53am  

New renter says

I would not be surprised to discover a very lucky few were able to make out like bandits

Some do. But that story is obviously BS, especially if the teacher was actually in Chicago. If they were in one of the highest paying suburbs? Even then, I just don't see it at 54. 64 sure. If he wanted to make up some slightly more believable BS, he should have said 64.

It's interesting to me that the same kind of person that wants to rant against teachers is the type that just makes up some lie to drive their point home.

55   freak80   2012 Jul 12, 1:57am  

New renter says

For all you know its hush money to keep him quiet about the superintendent and the 4H sheep

lol. I'm not sure which would be worse: the 4H sheep or the 9th grade cheerleaders.

56   freak80   2012 Jul 12, 2:00am  

bdrasin says

Hear, hear. I had two parents who would have died of shame if I'd dropped out of high school and wouldn't let me blow off schoolwork (and I was certainly lazy and shortsighted enough to have done it if I could have gotten away with it). That made more of a difference than any of my teachers.

Absolutely. Why do you think the Asian kids do so well? It isn't the teachers.

57   woppa   2012 Jul 12, 2:16am  

It's a race to the bottom for America. Hang on.

58   AlexS   2012 Jul 12, 2:23am  

wthrfrk80 says

Teachers aren't lazy. They have one of the worst jobs in the world.

How is their job worst than that of roofers? Cab drivers? Alaska fishermen? Enough of this sobbing already, and let's call spade a spade. Also keep in mind that thanks to roofers we have roof over our heads, tx to cabbies we can get to work and airport on time, and tx to fisherman we can eat fish - and their failure rate of delivery is much lower than teachers (50%+ of graduating kids can't read or do simple math)

Public school (just as everything government) is a joke. It's just an expensive babysitting arrangement. YOu are right, it's not just teachers, but also "administrators" and other overhead (50% in public schools, only 10% in private schools), and the whole system.

Also, plz save the "without parental involvement" comment - both parents are out working to pay the insane taxes (including income, payroll, state, local, sales, property, user fees, and INFLATION tax, and gazillion more). Nowadays it is almost impossible for family to survive on single income, hence another parent can't spend time with kids.

True example of government breaking your kneecaps, giving you crutches and saying - see without us you wouldn't be able to walk.

59   Vicente   2012 Jul 12, 2:27am  

AlexS says

How is their job worst then that of roofers? Cab drivers? Alaska fishermen?

Roofers, fisherman, and cab drivers, don't get a lot of people slandering that they are "layabouts" who smoke cigars in the lounge between their long summer breaks. Teachers get a lot of UNDESERVED crap thrown on them, and you wonder why they don't stick with it longer..... I had a commercial fisherman buddy, who used to spend a pretty fair amount time on dry land drinking and partying, but I never heard people denigrating his "undeserved" time off.

60   AlexS   2012 Jul 12, 2:32am  

Vicente says

Teachers get a lot of UNDESERVED crap thrown on them, and you wonder why they don't stick with it longer.....

Again, enough of this crap already. Teachers whine the most about being underpaid and overworked. No one, NOT ANYONE, no other single profession whines more than teachers. Not even privates stuck in sandbox 5,000+ miles away whine more than teachers. And when they are not whining about being underpaid, they whine about how they are not in it for the money...

61   Vicente   2012 Jul 12, 2:35am  

AlexS says

Not even privates stuck in sandbox 5,000+ miles away whine more than teachers.

I'd like to see you QUANTIFY that.

Military in my family EXCEL AT COMPLAINTS about everything from VA hospitals to the shoes and food. But it's probably because they are stuck in a socialist system where the government is their Mom & Dad. Strange the Republicans haven't moved to abolish all that Federal Socialism in the military.

YMMV.

62   rdm   2012 Jul 12, 2:36am  

marcus says

Some do. But that story is obviously BS, especially if the teacher was actually in Chicago. If they were in one of the highest paying suburbs? Even then, I just don't see it at 54. 64 sure. If he wanted to make up some slightly more believable BS, he should have said 64.

Most people just lump the Chicago area together as "Chicago" My cousin with the 6 figure pension retired in her 60's worked in Highland Park district. I forget what she told me they spent per child, but it was huge. Also people should keep in mind when they see a retired teacher driving new luxury cars that like other people many teachers have other income and sometimes other jobs.

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