patrick.net

Of all potential candidates, you feel the need to complain about teachers' pay. Why is that?

Um, I just listed the reason; the wages are not sustainable in the private sector where money isn’t stolen from people in the form of taxes. I promote freedom and increasing economic productivity, not theft and diminishing educational output! That is why education output has steadily been declining yet costs have been soaring. Industry price inflation without innovation or output gains is not a representation of capitalism. It is a representation of socialism and communism. Oh wait, the public education system is owned by the government. No wonder it under performs much like any communist country.

Why do people think that food, consumer goods, electronics, and general labor should be subjected to competition but not healthcare, housing, education, finance, or specialized labor? Where is the separation that I am missing? The only difference I see is the latter groups are better suited towards donating money to politicians for their protections in our Crony Capitalism.

Last time i checked, we are all free to be public school teachers.

GO FOR IT MAN!

$$$$$$$$$$

OK, EconPete, you say teachers are overpaid and coddled. Assuming your statistics are accurate, I'm underwhelmed. Schools aren't supposed to be profit centers and 95k/year (counting benefits as income) seems low if anything for an educator with 30 years of experience, but I guess you disagree. So what's your solution? What do you think we ought to pay those entrusted to educate our children? 15 bucks per hour with no benefits? Is that what our goal should be?

EconPete says

If their kid came home with a C, the parents would express the cost and value of the education and ensure his performance

I have a feeling that Child Protective Services would be involved very shortly if parents resulted to "express" their discontect with their children's performance. That would ironically increase the cost to the taxpayers.

EconPete says

I recently calculated the dollar per hour wage of a 5th year teacher I know. They only work 35 hours a week, 39 weeks a year, which is 1365 hours a year.

This is so much bullshit I wouldn't know where to start. Many good public school teachers these days with State finances under pressure have an average of more like 44 students per class, and work over 65 hours per week.

The average teacher puts in at least 50 hours per week.

At 65 hours per week, your calculation works out to more like $23/hour.
But yes, if you consider benefits in urban area with higher pay and benefits, the pay is in the neighborhood of at least $45/hr. This is like $16/hr in 1980.

Many of these teachers are fairly talented and caring people with at least a Bachelors degree, and very often a masters degree.

If you knew what the job entails, and how difficult it is, you wouldn't be making such a ridiculous argument.

I would like to see public school education improved by cutting back more on the upper level administrators, that is the bureaucracy. (this is not about unions - although might be in part related to administrators separate union. (no this has nothing to do with "union thugs" haha).

It is amazing to me, if you look at my pay, and the fact that my classes average over 40 these days, and yet supposedly something like $10,000 is spent per student.

Let's see 40 * 10,000 = $400,000

My pay including all benefits might bew in the neighborhood of $100K.

What is the other $300K going to ?

I don't think amortization of property value or new construction or any captial costs are even included in that 10K / student number.

PockyClipsNow says

Last time i checked, we are all free to be public school teachers.

GO FOR IT MAN!

Agreed. Hey, it's easy.

Everyone knows that teachers are in for the money. Shoot, the other day I saw my kid's teacher driving a honda civic LX and she was drinking a Starbucks coffee. Clearly she is rolling in it.

EconPete says

Also, watch the movie “Waiting for Superman”.
http://www.movie2k.to/Waiting-For-Superman-watch-movie-482494.html

THis movie is so much bs, pro- charter school propaganda. Charters get students whose parents are pushing for their success, and they often kick out low performing students, and usually don't have the same requirements for special ed students, and yet half the time their test scores are worse than public school scores.

Read Dianne Ravitch who used to be an advocate for the same kind of reforms pushed in "Waiting for Superman." She was preaching the right wing message, working for George W Bush, on public schools. But as she became more informed, she turned 180 degrees.

Translation: right wing dim bulbs who pride themselves on their blind acceptance of right wing propaganda should not read the very thoughtful observations and clear facts presented by this extremely intelligent lady.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/nov/11/myth-charter-schools/?pagination=false

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/sep/29/school-reform-failing-grade/?pagination=false

or,...handle the truth:

The annual Gallup poll about education shows that Americans are overwhelmingly dissatisfied with the quality of the nation’s schools, but 77 percent of public school parents award their own child’s public school a grade of A or B, the highest level of approval since the question was first asked in 1985.

From Dianne Ravitch on "Waiting for Superman." She breaks down a lot of the BS. An example:

Perhaps the greatest distortion in this film is its misrepresentation of data about student academic performance. The film claims that 70 percent of eighth-grade students cannot read at grade level. This is flatly wrong. Guggenheim here relies on numbers drawn from the federally sponsored National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP). I served as a member of the governing board for the national tests for seven years, and I know how misleading Guggenheim’s figures are. NAEP doesn’t measure performance in terms of grade-level achievement. The highest level of performance, “advanced,” is equivalent to an A+, representing the highest possible academic performance. The next level, “proficient,” is equivalent to an A or a very strong B. The next level is “basic,” which probably translates into a C grade. The film assumes that any student below proficient is “below grade level.” But it would be far more fitting to worry about students who are “below basic,” who are 25 percent of the national sample, not 70 percent.

Another example:

Guggenheim didn’t bother to take a close look at the heroes of his documentary. Geoffrey Canada is justly celebrated for the creation of the Harlem Children’s Zone, which not only runs two charter schools but surrounds children and their families with a broad array of social and medical services. Canada has a board of wealthy philanthropists and a very successful fund-raising apparatus. With assets of more than $200 million, his organization has no shortage of funds. Canada himself is currently paid $400,000 annually. For Guggenheim to praise Canada while also claiming that public schools don’t need any more money is bizarre. Canada’s charter schools get better results than nearby public schools serving impoverished students. If all inner-city schools had the same resources as his, they might get the same good results.

But contrary to the myth that Guggenheim propounds about “amazing results,” even Geoffrey Canada’s schools have many students who are not proficient. On the 2010 state tests, 60 percent of the fourth-grade students in one of his charter schools were not proficient in reading, nor were 50 percent in the other. It should be noted—and Guggenheim didn’t note it—that Canada kicked out his entire first class of middle school students when they didn’t get good enough test scores to satisfy his board of trustees.

EconPete says

Does anyone know why kids only go to school 2/3 of the year?

You say 2/3 repeatedly. It's more like 3/4. But the amount teachers work is more than this because of preparation during the summer (although this varies from teacher to teacher). SOme teach summer school and (but yes, are paid for that).

I know you will not and can not comprehend this, but it's a burnout job, even with summers off.

EconPete says

They do not realize that pension and healthcare benefits that range from $10,000 to $60,000

This is a stretch. 60K in benefits? In my case there is a significant deduction from my pay in place of payroll tax (social security). The district matches this and the state kicks in a little more. But yes there are benefits there.

Does anyone consider that along with the decent pay and benefits and security is the cost of not going for the gold ring of entrepreneurial work or corporate success? (there is a different gold ring there for some). As someone else recently mentioned, its a risk reward decision, and a long term commitment to do this work.

You could of gone in to this or other public service work.

Do people who haven't done the work really know what it's like ? Do they know that about half of the people that go in to teaching quit in the first 5 years? Keep in mind that it takes years for most to really even reach their best teaching. And you want to pay teachers less?

If it's such an amazing great paying and easy job, I wonder why it is that so many quit after a few years?

marcus says

This is a stretch. 60K in benefits?

I'd say that's about right when you consider their lavish pension and health benefits (health benefits continue in retirement too).

The cost of health care is what's screwing us all. Single-payer health care and the cost of benefits and pensions goes WAY down.

1sfrenter says

The cost of health care is what's screwing us all. Single-payer health care and the cost of benefits and pensions goes WAY down.

This is true. Sorry, won't happen.

It's simply amazing how people fall for the old divide and conquer bait put out by the powers that be. Blame the teachers, cops, firefighters or anyone working in what used to be considered solid middle class jobs for all our economic woes. These people and their bloated wages/benefits are draining our coffers. Such bullshit! This bullshit, which far too many people seem to enjoy devouring, comes from the same bastards who have stolen, yes stolen, trillions and laugh as they play the masses against one another. George Carlin summed it up perfectly, "there are a lot of f****n stupid people in this country."

marcus says

Do they know that about half of the people that go in to teaching quit in the first 5 years?

I admire lower-school teachers for one reason: dealing with all the shitty parents out there. It would grate on my nerves, I couldn't do it!

Even with one of my former University professors I got to hear some real horror stories. He ran the "weedout" class for a top Computer Science program. Endless pressure from students, parents, and even his own management to adjust grades when some connected student complained. Eventually he got fed up with it during one particularly bad example where the Dean over-rode him and changed a student's grades, and walked. I think he lasted about 7 years.

Plus as few realize and has been alluded to in this thread, there is no BONUS, there is no stock-sharing during boom times. During economic boom times all you hear is what an IDIOT you are for staying in a low-pay environment for....what? For a benefits illusion that probably will end up being slashed before you retire by Teahadists anyhow?

EconPete says

So if someone makes $100,000 a year income, under normal circumstances, it is safe to say they bring in about $850,000 to $1,000,000 revenue a year.

WTF this is a government service, not a for profit enterprise. The idea is to increase the common good and improve our standard of living over the long term, not to make a quick buck.

EconPete says

Now let’s look at the Public school teacher. In WI, the cost to educate a child per year in the public sector is around $12,000 a year! This is not viable in the private sector because nobody would be able to afford it, but let’s give teachers the benefit of the doubt.

Dude, are you on drugs? Private schools cost much more than this, and they don't have to deal with the mental challenged of society that suck a vast amount of resources from the public education budget. I suggest you enroll in a 12 step program. It really will help you over the long run. The government still offers such programs to help people, such as yourself.

Having had some experience working with a public school district as a contractor I tend to agree with Marcus that EconPete's analysis is at best oversimplified. I know of no school teacher that has "the summer off". The ones I have spoken to have stories of spending their summers in mandatory training classes. I often see teachers in Target buying supplies for their classes. My uncle was a public teacher in MI - is he living the high life - Nope! He lives a fairly standard middle class existence and to the best of my knowledge he has no fat pension stash rolling in.

Keep in mind most US employees get at least 2/3 of the year off! Yes its true!, knock off weekends, holidays and 10 days vacation and the year magically gets reduced to only 65% of the year actually spend at the office. Heck if one uses the 8 hr workday model that drops to only 22% of the year spent at the office

You @#$^@#% lazy slobs! Get back to work!

Seriously though I do tend to agree that it is well beyond time to move away from the summers-off model. Sorry kids but if Mom and Dad have to work so do you.

There is also the dark underbelly of teaching. Teachers do have to deal with molested and bullied kids, belligerent parents, unsupportive administrators, and a host of other nasty surprises.

I will at this point echo the challenge posed by Marcus and others - if you can't beat em' why not join 'em.

OK I've said my peace, now I'm off to my hedge fund management course...

You know EconPete if you want to get outraged at a complete waste of taxpayer money why not be outraged at the criminalization of marijuana? That policy alone wastes more money than any failing of education!

Banning the sale of foie gras in California is yet another huge waste of taxpayer money.

They say we are in a recession, yet they make laws to discourage consumption!

Bill Frank says

It's simply amazing how people fall for the old divide and conquer bait put out by the powers that be. Blame the teachers, cops, firefighters or anyone working in what used to be considered solid middle class jobs for all our economic woes. These people and their bloated wages/benefits are draining our coffers. Such bullshit! This bullshit, which far too many people seem to enjoy devouring, comes from the same bastards who have stolen, yes stolen, trillions and laugh as they play the masses against one another. George Carlin summed it up perfectly, "there are a lot of f****n stupid people in this country."

I couldn't have said it better.

One of my best friends retired at the age of 54 (30 years) from teaching in Chicago. He lives on a golf course, drives a new Lexus every year, and has a luxury Bus where he vacations to CA in the winters. His pension. He receives a check for $9,000 every month. Why is this right? It's not, but hey, he was in a Chicago union and they are the best at screwing the taxpayers.

Pat McGroin Im Irish says

One of my best friends retired at the age of 54 (30 years) from teaching in Chicago. He lives on a golf course, drives a new Lexus every year, and has a luxury Bus where he vacations to CA in the winters. His pension. He receives a check for $9,000 every month. Why is this right? It's not, but hey, he was in a Chicago union and they are the best at screwing the taxpayers.

What district did he teach in?

I can't imagine a worse job than a public school teacher. It's little more than babysitting for the children of deadbeats. Teachers aren't paid anywhere near enough considering the bullsh*t they have to deal with on a daily basis.

That said, I think the whole concept of mandatory public schooling is a joke. Public education should be "available" but NOT mandatory. At least not mandatory beyond elementary school (learning how to read and do basic math).

There are just too many low-lifes out there clogging up the public school system. They make life miserable for the few who actually want to learn.

And NO, I'm NOT assuming "deadbeats" only means poor black people in cities. I went to a rural high school with mostly white-trash future meth-heads.

Sure, there are a few "good" school districts out there, mainly in well-to-do suburbs, where the percentage of low-lifes is realatively small. But poorer folks who want their children to do well often can't afford to live in those areas.

wthrfrk80 says

That said, I think the whole concept of mandatory public schooling is a joke.

Compulsory education exists for a reason. Some parents would be perfectly happy to keep them at home and teach them absolutely nothing and raise savages instead of citizens. Home schoolers exist I need not remind you, but they are required to adhere to teaching the 3 R's.

I only read half the comments but I felt compelled to say how much I love that this guy econpete just made himself look like a fool.

marcus- gota love when someone tells you how much you are earning and how easy your job is, because they have a friend who told them so!

Econ-
Why don't you do something productive with your life like say, hold your breath forever.

I didn't see where you took into account the work teachers bring home.

Vicente says

Some parents would be perfectly happy to keep them at home and teach them absolutely nothing and raise savages instead of citizens.

I went to public school with mainly savages. The public schooling didn't seem to have much of an effect.

The Amish don't go to public schools and don't educate beyond 8th grade. How many of the Amish are savages?

I also find it very tough to believe that someone would tell someone else how much they are collecting from a pension, especially in this political climate, and especially if it was something ludicrous by most standards, even if it is a friend. I suspect most of these "my friend retired at 54 and is collecting 9 grand a month from a public pension!" stories are just that....stories, fabricated to increase the hatred of the villainous of the public sector.

Diane Ravitch's article should not be coupled with a teabag's opinion piece.

Ravitch has seen both sides and her experience is fortified with knowledge.
She knows what she is talking about ......

I certainly do blame teachers unions for a lot of problems with our education today. The low standards, someone did lobby for that. Costs, pension and healthcare retirement obligations that are resembling some sort of out of this world Bernie Madoff fantasy.

I remember when we used to throw money at education, and none of that ever translated into better grades or even trickled down to the students. Just got absorbed by pension obligations, and by bureaucratic administration. And as a parent when I don't think the product that I'm getting is worth paying for... well my attitude is not in favor of our current education system.

I completely disagree with the "seniority system" that they have, which is just meant to completely screw younger members in order to keep the old union elite fat and happy. That's how historically unions operated, like a ponzi scheme... they take from younger members and give it to the elite at the top. Complete immoral subjugation and indoctrination.

Pension problem is much bigger in CA, many union members don't consider it as part of their pay, they only see it as entitlement. Maybe that kind of ignorant attitude will one day go away, CA is bankrupt. Obama bailouts only lasted for 2 years.

Pat McGroin Im Irish says

One of my best friends retired at the age of 54 (30 years) from teaching in Chicago. He lives on a golf course, drives a new Lexus every year, and has a luxury Bus where he vacations to CA in the winters. His pension. He receives a check for $9,000 every month. Why is this right? It's not, but hey, he was in a Chicago union and they are the best at screwing the taxpayers.

I don't doubt this as I have a cousin who retired from a suburban Chicago district with a pension of over a 100K a year. On the other hand I have a good friend who just retired from a rural district in Il who after teaching for over thirty years with a masters degree was making in the mid forties and had taken cuts in benefits. In Il. where property taxes fund much of the public education and the State's finances are in a shamble, there is a huge disparity from district to district. Are there teachers that make more then they are worth, for sure and there are plenty that are underpaid. It is a profession where a teacher can have such a huge impact on a child's life (both for good and ill) that we just need to pay decent wages and benefits to retain good people and somehow weed out the bad, understanding that for the most part teachers want to do good work in educating our children and therefore need to get paid a decent wage.

It's obvious to see why econ pete feels the way that he does. Teachers think they're so smart, standing in front of the room like they do, judging him... judging his children, teaching stupid things like math and languages that they'll never need to know when they grow up. Trying to educate the masses is crazy, considering they might not be able to get jobs (the way things are going in our economy) and should only be taught certain catch phrases like, "would you like fries with that?"

Most of my property taxes go to pay for the school system out here. I live in an area where five kids is a small family, people are out of work and many of them can barely feed their children, yet the pop out more of them and I am paying to educate them. I feel like everyone should pay for kids' education, but if you have a shitload of them you should have to pay more to educate them or have to volunteer so many hours at the school to help out. But not to replace teachers, more like to help with the shit stuff so that teachers can... well, teach.

But econpete makes a point that private schools (or home schooling) are the way to go - right? then you don't have to interact with the 99%, the children learn segregation and how to treat other people with disdain.

Teachers never have to worry about layoffs:
http://www.cbsatlanta.com/story/19004432/dekalb-county-schools-face-even-deeper-cuts-teacher-layoffs
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-05-05/california-teacher-layoffs/54767514/1
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/27/cps-set-to-lay-off-1000-t_n_885298.html

Teachers are highly paid (2011):
http://www.teacherportal.com/teacher-salaries-by-state/

Teachers make so much money they buy their own supplies, drive nice cars, live in huge houses (which we all know is a sign of wealth), drink starbucks coffee for every meal... They have summers off (except, of course, for the teachers that I know, who work summer jobs to make ends meet), never work overtime, and never have to worry about some parent or child making a huge deal about something stupid.

Teachers are held to a higher moral standard, as if by being a teacher they don't drink, attend bachelor or bachelorette parties, say & do stupid human things, etc. They have complaints filed against them for looking at students wrong, taking away inappropriate materials, flunking the priveledged students, etc. They are treated like crap much of the time, have to follow guidelines set up by non-educators...

I can see why Marcus chose to be a teacher. He's probably sitting on a pile of money right now, glad to be in the public sector rather than making 30% more while working 30% less. As a social worker, I spend 1-3 hours nightly doing paperwork for which I'm not reimbursed. My teacher friends do the same - in fact, sometimes we get together and do our paperwork beside each other. It's a grown up form of parallel play...

Breaking story:

CEO's high pay is even less justified...for companies losing money or getting public bailouts.

FortWayne says

I certainly do blame teachers unions for a lot of problems with our education today. The low standards, someone did lobby for that. Costs, pension and healthcare retirement obligations that are resembling some sort of out of this world Bernie Madoff fantasy.

Standards are low because they have to be low. There are too many children of deadbeats in our public schools. It's not because of the evil teachers' unions.

FortWayne says

I completely disagree with the "seniority system" that they have, which is just meant to completely screw younger members in order to keep the old union elite fat and happy. That's how historically unions operated, like a ponzi scheme... they take from younger members and give it to the elite at the top.

They seniority system might not be a good thing, but it's not a "Ponzi scheme." It's not a "bubble" either.

Are we starting to call everything a "Ponzi scheme" or a "bubble" after the housing fiasco?

wthrfrk80 says

Standards are low because they have to be low. There are too many children of deadbeats in our public schools. It's not because of the evil teachers' unions.

This is precisely the attitude that kills our education system. Because No, standards shouldn't be low. Deadbeats are not entitled to a diploma upon birth. Diplomas are reserved for those who can demonstrate certain ability.

This is why so many teachers end up taking anti depressants when they see how this system screws children, and how badly this society gets fucked by it.

We shouldn't drag everyone down into low standards stupid equality to match mexican field workers just to make our graduation numbers look good. Best thing our teachers can do for kids who don't perform, is to fail them. Nothing gets a child and a parent involved into education like being told they are losers.

But in this education system low standards are there, so they can secure state and federal funding, which is tied to graduation rates, and pretend everything is fine, when it is not!

FortWayne says

I remember, last year on NPR. (And some NPR shows are just nuts when it comes to liberalism.)

I find it hard to sit through the Lip smacking and throat cracking.
They have a condescending, smug dictation that maximizes this effect, and the audio engineer compresses and EQ's the frequencies to further embellish it. It appears there's a thin line between being eloquent and just grossing people out.

These's Bastards can't describe sitting on a Lake doing a redneck task like Bass fishing with out trying to sound smarter than everyone else.

You're fishing Lake Allawalla get over your self!

wthrfrk80 says

They seniority system might not be a good thing, but it's not a "Ponzi scheme." It's not a "bubble" either.

Are we starting to call everything a "Ponzi scheme" or a "bubble" after the housing fiasco?

What would you call a system that knowingly promises returns that it knows it will never make, all while taking more from new members in order to pay for older existing members.

See the resemblance?

FortWayne says

They were talking about how everyone should get a diploma regardless of their ability to read and write, because they are entitled to a diploma.

I have a hard time believing NPR would advocate such a thing. If they did, shame on them.

What do lower standards and messages about "equality, entitlements and diversity" have to do with securing federal funding? Schools are generally funded at the state and local level are they not?