patrick.net

thomaswong.1986 says

CL says

But when the system is rigged to cause downward pressure on the worker, that whole system of entrepreneurship gets stifled. You can't collect enough wages to start that business, you can't negotiate higher wages.

Wages can go down, because you are competing with indentured servants in China now. The monopoly analogy rings true.

We also compete with the Japanese, Brits, Germans and other nations... none are indentured servants.

And many of those are paid well.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederickallen/2011/12/21/germany-builds-twice-as-many-cars-as-the-u-s-while-paying-its-auto-workers-twice-as-much/

“the salient difference is that, in Germany, the automakers operate within an environment that precludes a race to the bottom; in the U.S., they operate within an environment that encourages such a race.”

xrpb11a says

I'll see your noble prize winner Krugman and up you a noble prize winner Freidman....
you need to get rid of that Krugmanian glaze in your eye, worship no one, and see things for what they are.

First, I don't idolize Krugman. He's just right.

And second, Milt Friedman was NOT an Austrian supply-side witch doctor. He was a monetarist.

If you want a Nobel Laureate example who authored your supply-side, anti-central planning voodoo look at Hayek.

The easiest way to distigiush between them is Monetarists believe that centrally controlling the money supply positively contributes to overall economic well being, where Austrians believe centrally planned increases in money supply are the only known causes of nightmares in children. Or something like that.

New Keynesians (like Krugman) are very similar to monetarists. Keynesians cite lack of demand for economic malaise, monetarists cite lack of money. New Keynesians have trouble explaning rapidly changing prices, monetarists struggle with liquidity traps.

Austrians can't verify anything empirically, so they struggle with reality.

david1 says

Austrians can't verify anything empirically, so they struggle with reality.

A good definition of Austrian Economics is "Economics for people who don't like math".

OK, Cl - you're a collectivist. "Humans CAN'T SURVIVE without collective effort" Can't survive? And "THE REST OF THE ANIMALS"? Clearly the liberalism is a mental disease.

Liberals indifference to the sovereignty of the individual is buried in the "collective good" mentality which allows liberal governments the ability to rationalize unconscionable manipulations of the people they pretend to "serve".

For all its avowed "good intentions" the lib's political agenda is essentially sociopathic. The liberals political agenda necessarily dehumanizes the individual on the way to dominating him (IRS, DHS, TSA, Para-Military POLICE, etc) under penalty of the "law", all the way up to the penalty of death. No thank you, dems are "the enemy within".

xrpb11a says

The small business owner is the backbone of the American economy. Ninety-nine percent of all employers are small business owners. They provide 75% of the new jobs created every year, and they are responsible for 96% of all exported goods. Small business owners work out of garages, small stores on Main Streets, and huge corporate campuses. "Princeton Review"

That's why there should be more tax incentives for small businesses that deal in American labour, with American materials. Instead, we give huge tax breaks, on the federal and state level, to giant corporations that give the majority of their jobs to people overseas, since they are most often political prisoners, children and the desperate. The only Americans that earn a living wage in these giant corporations are at the top. They often offer service jobs in America, but they make minimum wage, so the only people in this country the create jobs for are usually teens earning extra cash, because no one can live on minimum wage without government help in the USA anymore. Small businesses create real jobs for Americans, yet they are the ones who are penalized by our tax system, and penalized even more if the individual running the company makes under $200,000. The system is a mess, and we are a democracy, so it's our own fault. "If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquillity of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."
Samuel Adams

Honest Abe says

The liberals political agenda necessarily dehumanizes the individual on the way to dominating him (IRS, DHS, TSA, Para-Military POLICE, etc) under penalty of the "law", all the way up to the penalty of death

Actually, capitol punishment is much more strongly supported by conservatives than liberals.

david1 says

First, I don't idolize Krugman. He's just right.

And second, Milt Friedman was NOT an Austrian supply-side witch doctor. He was a monetarist.

If you want a Nobel Laureate example who authored your supply-side, anti-central planning voodoo look at Hayek.

The easiest way to distigiush between them is Monetarists believe that centrally controlling the money supply positively contributes to overall economic well being, where Austrians believe centrally planned increases in money supply are the only known causes of nightmares in children. Or something like that.

New Keynesians (like Krugman) are very similar to monetarists. Keynesians cite lack of demand for economic malaise, monetarists cite lack of money. New Keynesians have trouble explaning rapidly changing prices, monetarists struggle with liquidity traps.

Austrians can't verify anything empirically, so they struggle with reality.

Most countries who are financially conservative outperform their Keynesian counterparts by multitudes. Germany has been generally fiscally conservative post-WW2 with low inflation and thus have been running the show in Europe. Estonia and Latvia went cold turkey and are now in great shape. India has been importing gold with their trade surplus and is looking good - sure, they still have slums and sharp contrasts of wealth, but they are improving consistently while the US and the European Keynesian worshippers are on the way to become slums. Japan, UK, the PIIGS and the US got badly damaged by Keynesian bullshit (used by greedy politicians and elites, so please stop talking about idiots like Krugman.

mell says

Most countries who are financially conservative outperform their Keynesian counterparts by multitudes. Germany has been generally fiscally conservative

Wha???? Germany has a social market economy. This is Keynesianism on steroids. They maintain employment despite capacity under-utilization!

For Christ's sake, the German government has collective bargaining rights with private employers! All workers are members of one central union!

Estonia and Latvia? Estonia has 11+% unemployment. Latvia has 15% unemployment. Yeah those are shining cities on a hill...

HRH! Incognito!
Welcome back!!

hrhjuliet says

xrpb11a says

The small business owner is the backbone of the American economy. Ninety-nine percent of all employers are small business owners. They provide 75% of the new jobs created every year, and they are responsible for 96% of all exported goods. Small business owners work out of garages, small stores on Main Streets, and huge corporate campuses. "Princeton Review"

That's why there should be more tax incentives for small businesses that deal in American labour, with American materials.

And I might add Germany has Tax revenues as a % of GDP nearly 60% higher than the US, even by Heritage Foundation numbers.

Estonia is about 20% higher, and Latvia about 17% higher than the US in Tax Revenues as a % of GDP...

Now I'm curious, who on talk radio is talking about he free market havens of Estonia and Latvia, with their robust economic recoveries fueled by austerity?

Love to speak with a Latvian about how he feels about that internal devaluation his goverment is doing. Sounds like it sucks there actually.

The shining example of free market success was America. This golden success model slowly lost its luster under the relentless attacks of Unions, RINO's and liberal democrats. A never ending blizzard of laws written by non-business people imposed upon businesses large and small has slowly strangled the greatest wealth producing system the world has ever seen.

Free enterprise fosters creativity and inventiveness. It produces new industries, products, services and improves on existing ones. This system has created more wealth and opportunities than any other economic model.

The free market is the harmony of interests and rules of cooperation that underlie a civil society (which liberals detest). It fosters self-sufficiency (which liberals detest). It supports the individual and family (which liberals detest). It is intertwined with private property (which liberals detest).

Oops, the boss is coming, gotta get back to work!

To the OP ...

If you are purposefully going to misconstrue what someone says, or take things out of context, as a means to attack someone, you are just fomenting misunderstanding. This doesn't help the democratic process at all and only weakens us as a nation. Shameful.

I don't think much of anyone (Romney or others) who would stand behind this attack and believe it is credible or convincing. It's politics and politics only. Zero basis in reality.

Just because you shout loud and sound angry doesn't mean many of us are listening anymore. "Boy who cried wolf" time for the GOP/Romney. (rabble rabble rabble)

If anyone missed Stewart's bit on this ...

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2012/07/jon-stewart-chips-away-you-didnt-build/55044/

Use your brain and think critically for a second.

Honest Abe says

Free enterprise fosters creativity and inventiveness.

There is free enterprise where ideas flourish and elevate the standard of living for all, and then there's the loophole-laden fraud-friendly people-as-selfish-machines game-theory-based monopolistic wet dream that neoliberals and their apple polishers like to clad in the valance of free enterprise or the Free Market.

So which one are you blowing smoke about?

Honest Abe says

Did the president of the United States REALLY say that?

Is ABe really so gullible and intellectually challenged that he believes the president said that ?

Answer: Sadly, yes. (we need a word much stronger than pathetic to describe Abe's critical thinking skills)

rewrew7 says

If anyone missed Stewart's bit on this ...

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/politics/2012/07/jon-stewart-chips-away-you-didnt-build/55044/

Thanks.

david1 says

mell says

Most countries who are financially conservative outperform their Keynesian counterparts by multitudes. Germany has been generally fiscally conservative

Wha???? Germany has a social market economy. This is Keynesianism on steroids. They maintain employment despite capacity under-utilization!

For Christ's sake, the German government has collective bargaining rights with private employers! All workers are members of one central union!

Estonia and Latvia? Estonia has 11+% unemployment. Latvia has 15% unemployment. Yeah those are shining cities on a hill...

What does that have to do with Keynesian money policies? You can have aspects of a social market economy while still being fiscally conservative and balance your budget(s). Stop thinking in left-wing right-wing and libertarian vs liberal mindset, then you might actually see that monetary policy wise there is no difference between dems and reps. Also, if you keep citing high unemployment rates in the mentioned countries, they have been steadily improving (and cleared their bad debt), and if someone is counted as employed it actually means that they are above poverty level, unlike in the US where the numbers are fudged beyond sense (the real unemployment % as in the US is likely significantly higher than in Estonia or Latvia).

Honest Abe says

Oops, the boss is coming, gotta get back to work!

Walmart greeters have access to the internet ?

What goes around, comes around.

"Obama senior strategist/adviser David Axelrod chortled about Romney’s firing remark, saying in a Tweet: “Giving Mitt credit for rare moment of candor.”

Romney's firing remark was more comparable to Obama's "the private sector is doing fine" comment.

This bit though, becoming such a center piece of ROmney's campaign is shear stupidity on their part, for reasons that I won't even explain now.

Let's just wait and see how it works out.

I never do cease to be amazed though by the dishonesty (or off the charts gullibility/stupidity) of so many on this forum.

Honest Abe says

OK, Cl - you're a collectivist. "Humans CAN'T SURVIVE without collective effort" Can't survive?

Where in nature do you see individuals thriving on their own, by strictly their own efforts? More importantly, what in the human condition would prepare an individual for such isolation?

It doesn't exist. From birth until death, someone is helping you. In that first and last chapter, they are literally wiping your caboose and feeding you.

Let's see rugged individualism help you there.

I hate it when someone goes through line by line with critiques of posts, but you ask so many questions there isn't a better way to maintain clarity.

mell says

What does that have to do with Keynesian money policies?

Keynes said that private sector decisions can at times lead to market inefficiences, and he advocated for public policy to stabilize demand. I can think of few clearer examples of public intervention than government maintaining full employment in the face of capacity surplus. Germany does not control its money policy, it is a member nation of the ECB.

mell says

You can have aspects of a social market economy while still being fiscally conservative and balance your budget(s).

Now fiscal conservatism is only defined as balancing the budget? Fine...lets raise tax rates to 90% of GDP and double spending. We would have a budget surplus which you would define as "fiscal conservatism."

And finally...
mell says

unlike in the US where the numbers are fudged beyond sense (the real unemployment % as in the US is likely significantly higher than in Estonia or Latvia).

There it is. The place Austrians always go.."The observable empirical data contradicts my point because the numbers are manipulated. No I don't have any data of my own, what good would that do?"

Once again:
david1 says

Austrians can't verify anything empirically, so they struggle with reality.

Ruki says

david1 says

Austrians can't verify anything empirically, so they struggle with reality.

That's rich given how Keynesians never have and Keynes himself said it was all theory and wasn't interested in providing empirical data.

Give HRHMedia access to patrick.net...and he'll masturbate with it.

Phillips Curve?

Mr Gaster in that picture wouldn't sell too much lumber without that gov't road running by his business, LOL.

Republicans are really the densest people on the planet. That's the only explanation.

Mr Gaster really just wants his ass kissed is all. The other stuff is just a handy pretext.

zzyzzx says

Ah, but Ray didn't build that nice road next to his business that allows people to shop at his hardware store. Nor did Ray build:

- the sewer system that prevents his hardware store from flooding
- the fire department and hydrant system that keeps it from burning down
- the police department that protects Ray from burglary
- the electric system that powers Ray's stores
- the public land on which that electric system and other utilities run without which Ray could not run his business

And as Jon Stewart explained, much to the irritation of republicans, Obama meant "those" not "that".

I.e., Obama was not saying that people didn't build businesses. Obama was saying that business creators didn't build all the infrastructure that is necessary for those businesses to run. That public infrastructure, which makes possible those private businesses, were built with tax dollars and that is why taxes exist, so that the next generation can build their businesses and lives as well.

Jon Stewart then goes on to show how ridiculously identical Obama's and Romney's positions are on the whole private vs. public tax pseudo-debate is.

But hey, why argue against what Obama stands for, when you can argue against an out-of-context misinterpretation of what Obama stands for. You know, like when Romney said he like firing people.

After all, none of you actually believe that Obama is a communist, but you'll promote that idea because you think your neighbors are so fucking stupid they might believe it and then vote for Romney. And that's what this whole thread is really about.

If you're going to argue for one of the two dip-shits running for president, at least argue the real issues. I know it's hard because the two are virtually identical with the slight exception that Romney wants to fuck the middle class harder to increase the rich-poor gap even more. But most of their policies are quite frankly the same.

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2012/07/31/colorado-business-owners-speak-out-on-obamas-business-comment/

Don't forget to eat at Chick-Fil-A soon...and SUPPORT FREE SPEECH IN AMERICA.

Blah blah blah...we all know what the fuck he was saying...but it doesn't matter. this is the season for taking everything out of context. OB kicked it off with the romney "I like to be able to ....blah blah blah"....
Most 'out of context' quotes takes the election....
Let the games begin.

Dan8267 says

I.e., Obama was not saying that people didn't build businesses. Obama was saying that business creators didn't build all the infrastructure that is necessary for

xrpb11a says

this is the season for taking everything out of context.

But do you really respect anyone on either side that stoops to those tactics?

by november everybody will be guilty.
business as usual..

Dan8267 says

xrpb11a says

this is the season for taking everything out of context.

But do you really respect anyone on either side that stoops to those tactics?

I have one of those just up the street. I eat there because it's the tastiest fast food chicken that won't fry your diet...

the current fiasco has no impact with me, one way or the other...

Honest Abe says

http://denver.cbslocal.com/2012/07/31/colorado-business-owners-speak-out-on-obamas-business-comment/

Don't forget to eat at Chick-Fil-A soon...and SUPPORT FREE SPEECH IN AMERICA.

Chick Fil A isn't getting another dollar from me, but I admit that this homohate foo-fah is excellent business for them.

http://reason.com/blog/2012/05/14/gallup-majority-say-gay-lesbian-relation

The homohate thing is just a retread of Southern / Bible Belt intolerance:

it's bullshit, but goes along well with the rest of the bullshit from conservatives.

"The poll, conducted from June 28 to July 9, found that 22% of white evangelical Protestants favor gay marriage while 73% oppose."

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/lifestyle/religion/poll-shows-divisions-over-gay-marriage#ixzz22LFNDl73

30% of the country is white evangelical and they vote Republican at ~80%.

Retards, every last one of them, but it's great to have 25% of the electorate as a reliable voting bloc, which the Republicans have enjoyed since the realignment of Nixon's Southern Strategy and Reagan's follow-on election in 1980.

xrpb11a says

the current fiasco has no impact with me, one way or the other...

Depends if you want this country devolving into a religious nuthouse like Afghanistan. That's what the Christian Dominionist thing is all about.

First they shit on the gays, and I did not speak out - because I was not gay.

Chick Fil A is just a small piece of the Republican social conservative power bloc. Even if 10 million people who think like me stop going there, it's not going to change things for the better, since there are many more conservative idiots in this country than smart people.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative."

your making a mountain out of a molehill...
the scene you paint below is simply not attainable given the current constitution/bill of rights.

Delurking says

Depends if you want this country devolving into a religious nuthouse like Afghanistan. That's what the Christian Dominionist thing is all about.

xrpb11a says

your making a mountain out of a molehill...

tell that to gay people who want legal partnerships.

CFA is donating millions of dollars to oppose those civil rights.

It's bullshit and I'm not going to have one penny of my money go for that.

Chicken sandwich isn't worth all that.

and the gays will shit on them this friday. what goes around, comes around.

Delurking says

First they shit on the gays

xrpb11a says

what goes around, comes around.

the problem is gays are a minority, while christian fundamentalists are a majority in many areas.

this stuff isn't that complicated ya know.

"The findings also show a widening partisan divide over gay marriage, with 65 percent of Democrats now supporting it compared to 24 percent of Republicans."

wow, talk about being on the wrong side of history. Well done, conservatives, you are driving your party into irrelevancy.

though it's probably going to take a 1929-33 period to get the people back to their senses about how bad conservatism is for America.

if you want to suppress the first amendment, have at it...
Let me know how that works out for ya....

Delurking says

xrpb11a says

what goes around, comes around.

the problem is gays are a minority, while christian fundamentalists are a majority in many areas.

too late.
chick-fil-a did not build their business....you did by paying taxes that built the roads and bridges leading to their door.....
Guess that makes you a bigot too....

Delurking says

It's bullshit and I'm not going to have one penny of my money go for that.

I am a private citizen so first amendment does not apply.

I fully support the geezer's right to be a public homophobe but I will not give him my money for him to forward it to advocacy groups I disagree with.

again, this is not that complicated.

Chick Fil A is just a rightwing nutjob corporation. It's a free country, but their advocacy for social conservative bullshit is not something I'm going to support going forward.

I've known about CFA's positions on this -- and even ate there earlier this month, but I've seen the error in my ways with that.

chick-fil-a did not build their business....you did by paying taxes that built the roads and bridges leading to their door.....

this barely parses. For one, Obama did NOT say anything that business owners did not build their businesses, obviously they do.

Obama's quote was saying business owners did not build the infrastructure their businesses depend upon.

Arguing with conservatives is like arguing with 2 year olds. You guys simply can't kick your brain into any sort of ability to understand anything beyond your idiotic talking points.