patrick.net

tts says

Depends on what you mean by "require". Is a college degree necessary for work that was done by OJT's for decades just fine? Not really no. However if the employer decides that it suddenly is necessary

My entire point was that this is a human resources (HR) requirement but as a society, we continually deny the fact that it's in reality, not needed. The employer is simply a 'man of the system'. His job is to follow instructions and for white collar jobs, that means hiring only bachelor's degree holders, to generate a type of class distinction/division among labor pools.

That's why I made that snide remark about 'mail-order' diploma because in essence, that's really what's needed *to fool* HR types these days, along with some internship experiences. The real education is not important.

CaptainShuddup says

I think the real problem is the sheer volume of kids being suckered into taking Liberal Arts courses and Majors, that convert to low wage jobs.

Look at the graphs, the 2nd one in particular in the original post. As well as the 1st one in the 2nd post.

STEM degrees are doing better then "useless" LA degrees but are still doing worse than they once did a decade ago. Also note the data from the 2nd graph is from 2009. Things have gotten MUCH worse since then for STEM college grads. But note how even back then the wages have absolutely tanked and STEM degrees, even from mediocre colleges, are not cheap to get.

CaptainShuddup says

I told her, "No darling, you just gotta know your Shit."

I agree with this sentiment but the employers don't care and they're the ones holding all the cards right now.

Rin says

His job is to follow instructions and for white collar jobs, that means hiring only bachelor's degree holders, to generate a type of class distinction/division among labor pools.

Of course, but this doesn't change that nowadays a college degree is considered just as much of a requirement as a HS Diploma was 20-30 yr ago for most jobs.

Whether or not the knowledge the college degree gives you is actually useful for the job or the why of it from the perspective of the white collar HR guy is moot point in both cases.

The employer says a college degree is required for job x, then its required. No ifs, ands, or buts about it will be tolerated from any potential employee. Certainly not these days.

Rin says

That's why I made that snide remark about 'mail-order' diploma because in essence, that's really what's needed *to fool* HR types these days, along with some internship experiences.

They do check on the school now. Ivy League degrees aint' worth what they used to be but degrees from community college or the Internet are definitely viewed with a jaundiced eye. And these days any HR stooge can google your college name in seconds.

tts says

The employer says a college degree is required for job x, then its required. No ifs, ands, or buts about it will be tolerated from any potential employee. Certainly not these days.

That's fine for you and me, but I don't see why let's say Peter Thiel, the independently wealthy guy who argued against college degrees, to lambast HR depts publically? And what about the popular press? Isn't Anderson Cooper, a Vanderbilt trustafarian? Couldn't a person like him, who doesn't need the money, make a statement about this education thing being a faux restriction on society? The fact is that no one is having that authentic discussion in the public eye. Instead, it's all about tuition and such. The place where you'll find ppl annoyed about the whole BS requirements are on blogs like this.

Rin says

The fact is that no one is having that authentic discussion in the public eye. Instead, it's all about tuition and such.

Credentialism is a real problem IMO but its not something that society, rich or common, seems to be interested in discussing at all. EDIT: So we're stuck dealing with tuition issues and more "lofty" questions such as "why should I need a degree for something I can learn on the job to do in 6 months" just get you crazy looks from most people. Nearly everyone has bought into the "go to college, get a great job" meme and are in denial about societies problems.

My opinion on the matter is that after high school you should have the option to go to either a)very cheap or free state paid or assisted college and/or b)very cheap or free state paid or assisted vocational school to learn a trade and c)college should never be job requirement except for certain very technical non-management specialties.

Doing all three of those things would pretty much eliminate any artificial restrictions on society. Solutions are obvious, its getting anyone of them done that is the problem.

tts says

Doing all three of those things would pretty much eliminate any artificial restrictions on society. Solutions are obvious, its getting anyone of them done that is the problem.

Yes, we're in agreement.

tts says

Nearly everyone has bought into the "go to college, get a great job" meme and are in denial about societies problems.

Well, when I make my millions in my current hedge fund work, I'll be a lot more vocal about the fact that we don't need a college degree. For now, since being blacklisted is a fear, which anyone searching for work needs to watch out for, I'll keep my opinions quiet.

tts says

CaptainShuddup says

I told her, "No darling, you just gotta know your Shit."

I agree with this sentiment but the employers don't care and they're the ones holding all the cards right now.

Employers want results, do you know how many college grads come through that don't know their ass from a Hole in the ground?

The way I look at it, if you have a HR department making decisions on personnel that their only qualification to do so, is by grading people on the "P's and Q's" of their resume, because they don't really grasp the significance of the content there in. Then that company doesn't deserve quality individuals.
Problem solvers avoid those companies like the plague.

tts says

The employer says a college degree is required for job x, then its required. No ifs, ands, or buts about it will be tolerated from any potential employee. Certainly not these days.

Correction the HR dolt says that. Ask the guy in the company who will be responsible for the resource. They would rather hear from potential candidates FIRST. HR dude and the IT director, have two distinct versions of the ideal candidate.

I find job searches to easy, if you maintain the position that the recruiters and the HR people are unqualified to evaluate your abilities, they are a glorified proof reader. They are looking for folks that write the best Copy, that has nothing to do with their abilities.

Rin says

Thus, I could have been a college drop out, and *made it* in my field, provided that I ordered a mail order BS diploma, to blindside the HR depts.

Same here. The whole "need a college degree" thing is mostly a racket. And how many HR goons actually have any clue about your degree anyway? It's all just "keywords" and "buzzwords" that matter.

Heh, I'd worry about being replaced by a computer a few years down the road if I were you.

We don't have the robotics that seemed so likely 40-50 years ago in those "science" magazines but the things that computers can do today with symbols processing are already starting to eliminate mid-level jobs. The most obvious examples of this today is the "self check out" line or ATM, a much less obvious but surprisingly large one is lawyers believe it or not. Many of the B and C grade lawyer work is being automated away as we speak and even some of the A grade stuff too. Its a terrible time to be anything but a A+ grade lawyer outside of few specialized niches (ie. patent law) right now.

I'm not suggesting that all hedge fund-ies will lose their jobs, but a lot of the grunt work that the mid-level guys uses to handle might go away, and their jobs with it. Being able to program might be a handy skill in the near future for you....

tts says

OWS was a foreshadowing of something similar happening here but the public in the US has still a)heavily bought into neoliberal pro-FIRE propaganda

And don't forget the steady stream of far-right bilge from Fox News and AM radio. The sheer number of far-right trolls on Patnet spewing AM radio talking points is amazing.

tts says

The employer says a college degree is required for job x, then its required. No ifs, ands, or buts about it will be tolerated from any potential employee. Certainly not these days.

Correct. It's just an artificial "hoop to jump through." It doesn't matter if that individual will end up doing work than any high-school dropout could do.

CaptainShuddup says

The way I look at it, if you have a HR department making decisions on personnel that their only qualification to do so, is by grading people on the "P's and Q's" of their resume, because they don't really grasp the significance of the content there in. Then that company doesn't deserve quality individuals.

Sure but that is the way most of them do these days only they also add in a pretty significant experience requirement on top of the degree requirement. They'll still often get dozens or hundreds of applications to sort through, and if an employee doesn't work out why should they care?

They literally have a stack of apps from people practically begging for work to choose from. People get replaced easily these days, like cogs in a machine. Even if you aren't in a "Right to Fire" state even supposedly uber-liberal states like CA have a 90 day period where you can be fired for almost anything.

CaptainShuddup says

Correction the HR dolt says that.

A difference without distinction. The HR dolt gets his marching orders from Management.

tts says

Heh, I'd worry about being replaced by a computer a few years down the road if I were you.

[ snip ]

I'm not suggesting that all hedge fund-ies will lose their jobs,

As a job/career, it's already in the world of hokey, pseudo-science. I'm doing it, however, as an entrepreneur with a group of folks I know. Thus, we keep our earnings. The idea is to retire within 10 years and then, attend medical school for retirement. Ultimately, I'm only relying on licensed professions because I don't believe in the system, as it is today.

tts says

A difference without distinction. The HR dolt gets his marching orders from Management.

This is correct.

Rin says

The idea is to retire within 10 years and then, attend medical school for retirement.

Sounds like you're being pretty level headed about the whole biz, hope things work out for you. If you do go for medical school shoot for being a PA, decent money but much less schooling and stress.

IMO the effort + cash you have to spend to be a doctor isn't worth it these days, (edit) unless you really love the work that is, and I think it'll only get worse several years down the road.

tts says

IMO the effort + cash you have to spend to be a doctor isn't worth it these days, (edit) unless you really love the work that is, and I think it'll only get worse several years down the road.

The trick is that if you can finish medicine with little to no debt, then it's still worth it. For most professionals, as soon as you hit that ages 45-55 zone, you're in the world of ageism where age discrimination hammers down upon you.

I knew a PhD engineer, who went to medical school at the age of 45 and when he finished residency, age ~53, he was offered numerous jobs, and today (~65 years old), he's still gainfully employed. On the other hand, 3/4 of his prior industry R&D dept was downsized, right after he started MD school, and then, half of that group was underemployed for the rest of their lives. As an engineer, he'd worked 65+ hours per week [ much of it under appreciated ], but as a doctor, it's basically ~45 hours, after he'd completed residency. He does some extra research projects so the net total is still 65+, but that's more a labor of love than a requirement for putting food on the table.

tts says

they also add in a pretty significant experience requirement on top of the degree requirement.

In this job market, and in my experience that trumps all else.
I spent a long time working for "A man and a truck" wages, wearing many different hats.

CaptainShuddup says

In this job market, and in my experience that trumps all else.

I agree, but the employers don't, and putting a 2-5yr experience requirement for a entry level position on top of a college degree requirement on top of that where none was required before is just plain stupid.

There has to be a way for new people to come up, no one comes out of college knowing everything they need to do the job.

The current expectation from employers is that these new people should expect to work for free for those 2-5 years in internships to get that "experience". They simply do not want to do deal with training employees any more and put all the burden of meeting the employers' needs on the employee now.

Even if this situation wasn't driving down wages it would be totally ridiculous and terrible.

Rin says

The trick is that if you can finish medicine with little to no debt, then it's still worth it.

If you can come up with the $150-200k college costs out of pocket then great, few can expect to have that sort of cash lying around though.

Rin says

As an engineer, he'd worked 65+ hours per week [ much of it under appreciated ], but as a doctor, it's basically ~45 hours, after he'd completed residency. He does some extra research projects so the net total is still 65+, but that's more a labor of love than a requirement for putting food on the table.

Sounds like he was a workaholic. If those hours seem "normal" and "fine" to you then perhaps you're one as well, not that that is a bad thing. I have say though that I've worked around doctors for a long time and nearly all of them get burnt out by the time they're 50 and some of them were used to practically living in the hospital they worked there so much. If they were pulling ER duty on top of their normal patient load 96+ hour work weeks were the norm. And giving ER duty to the low doctor on the totem pole is typical in most hospitals.

If you're thinking about going independent then I have to say that unless you're very good and specialize in a niche that the hospitals don't care about or can't monopolize then you won't make it. And there aren't very many possible niches that fit that criteria. Lately nearly all doctors have been selling their practices and becoming "merely" employees for the big box hospital groups because they can no longer go it alone.

Its been quite the step down for them in pay and prestige, nearly none of them wanted to do it, they have no other choice besides retiring early which most couldn't afford to do. That situation is likely to get worse for quite a while before it gets better.

$26,756 is a ridiculously low salary for a college graduate. Even ignoring student loans, that salary is at the poverty line. Back in 1998, I rented a small apartment for $10k/yr. All my other living expenses (electricity, transportation, food, etc.) came out to another $10k. That's $20k/yr just to live on back in 1998.

Today that would be about $27,500, more than what the average college grad is making. And that's before taxes! Throw in student loan repayments and even the CS majors at $34k/yr are barely making it paycheck to paycheck.

There's no way the Millennials are ever going to be able to buy a house. They'll have to wait to inherit grandma's house or keep living with their boomer parents until the boomers die.

Meanwhile social security is threatened because "there aren't enough workers". Hmmph, there are plenty of workers. Capital isn't doing its job of keeping citizens productive.

Does this count real colleges, or those like ITT and University of Phoenix? I've mentioned before that my dog has a bachelor's degree in liberal arts.

I employ her as a food taster and she manages my security detail. Since I got her, there hasn't been one polar bear in my yard. That degree was the best $30 I ever spent.

elliemae says

I've mentioned before that my dog has a bachelor's degree in liberal arts.

elliemae says

Does this count real colleges, or those like ITT and University of Phoenix?

Which chart are you referring to? The study cited in the original article used data from all colleges FWIW.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
Its funny cuz' its true, at least according to mainstream news/economists anyways.

Pro click and loop in the back ground through a different tab while reading the OP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhvPMWqWDEM&feature=related

Dan:
He only licks them because he can.

Dan8267 says

There's no way the Millennials are ever going to be able to buy a house. They'll have to wait to inherit grandma's house or keep living with their boomer parents until the boomers die.

You act like there's no such thing as Collective Experience.
The idea is to take what was behind the current door, and use that experience to guide you through the next open door, and have the knowledge to know how to utilize what you find there.

A young man bitching about his wages now, is doomed to live a failed life. Those low wages are all part of his life training, if he's busy complaining about the instructor, I can assure you, he wont learn "Squat".

As for tts, I'm not going to argue with you, I can only go by my experience and marketability.
I'll tell evey one this though. You know what is back in fashion?
Age and Experience. I am so glad that the Social experiment is over, the one that the 80's "Consultants" laid on Corporate America to gut their key and experienced people and replace them with young dumb and full of shit hipster wise asses, that didn't know shit from shineola.
Companies still hiring from the Senior Year book, "Most likely" page, will get eaten ALIVE. Experience is back BABY and Pops ain't fucking around!

CaptainShuddup says

As for tts, I'm not going to argue with you, I can only go by my experience and marketability.

So data from numerous different 3rd parties means nothing for you?

Are you sure that is a reasonable way to stay informed about anything? It sounds more like a way to justify putting your head in the sand when you hear/see something that you don't like.

CaptainShuddup says

I'll tell evey one this though. You know what is back in fashion?
Age and Experience. I am so glad that the Social experiment is over, the one that the 80's "Consultants" laid on Corporate America to gut their key and experienced people and replace them with young dumb and full of shit hipster wise asses, that didn't know shit from shineola.

Actually as was already pointed out to you they're also requiring degrees on top of the experience. And if you read the articles and look at the charts you'll see that even if you do land a entry level job the compensation has been dropping for several years straight now with no let up in sight.

If you want to ignore all that info. for whatever reason and won't bring any info. either to explain and justify your reasoning then fine but you won't get any sympathy from anyone. You certainly won't convince them of anything either.

CaptainShuddup says

A young man bitching about his wages now, is doomed to live a failed life. Those low wages are all part of his life training, if he's busy complaining about the instructor, I can assure you, he wont learn "Squat".

The same jobs pay less now than they did a few years back but this the employees fault because some complain quite reasonably that they can't afford to live much less live as well as their parents on the wage that is given?

I hope you're just trolling...

tts says

So data from numerous different 3rd parties means nothing for you?

Especially NOT, these days the definition of "DATA" almost always has an agenda behind it. I know what data looks like. I also know most job postings request degree, but in reality if it's out there in my field. I will be emailed or called about the position.

CaptainShuddup says

Especially NOT, these days the definition of "DATA" almost always has an agenda behind it.

So its not data unless you say it is because you never know there might be a conspiracy or cabal or something out there producing false studies on the declining standard of living and wages and jobs for who knows what reason?

That is sensible to you?

CaptainShuddup says

but in reality if it's out there in my field. I will be emailed or called about the position.

So there is no problem because its not a problem for you?

If GDP goes negative but you're doing fine financially do you also reject the idea that there is a recession going on?

tts says

I hope you're just trolling...

I can't even tell anymore.

Isn't there a "law of physics" that says it's impossible to distinguish between extremism and a parody of extremism, at least online?

Either way, the ignore feature is a good one.

Poe's Law yea.

I'd give him a +1 if I thought he was just trolling me if only for the effort he keeps putting into it...except I think he is actually being serious with me.

I've met people IRL (9/11 Truthers and Tea Baggers) who do say some of the stuff he does and use some of the same arguments and its usually impossible to get through to them.

tts says

That is sensible to you?

Let's just say, companies that don't have your traditional HR departments, live a different reality than that of those that do. And aren't the companies you describe, the ones posting quarterly losses, since 2007, and keep adding States Warn notices around the country?

Hey man come on, you haven't provided any data you've shown pictures, graphics in an article to support the authors assertions. Data is what I do. Good data is most always presented as is, it is only dirty extrapolations that the presenter has to play dress up with, and present it as charts.

I laugh at your chart that suggests that Computer Science jobs start at 34K. Photoshop novice make more than that, designing Facebook pages.

You're just part of the ministry of Negative reinforcement.
We're all too fat, lazy and stupid and no one is qualified to the jobs, because they are so low wage, no one would want them anyway.
Let's import more Indians and give them HB1 Visas.

I'll tell you what I told my wife... "You've just got to know your Shit"
That is all it takes. You can do anything in this county besides Practice medicine or law, by just cracking books, and Googling the subject.

Just for some closure on this topic, concerning medicine as a second career, a decent option is to attend either one's state program or go to eastern Europe [provided that the foreign school is listed, so that its graduates are able to sit for the US foreign medical licensing exam back home]; that'll lower the costs from $250K to $60K. If one takes the foreign path, assuming no slots in the state med, it pretty much excludes one getting into an elite surgical residency at a Hopkins or Mayo or an extremely selective program like Dermatology but there are plenty of lesser renown residencies for non-US school graduates. In addition, unlike internationals, you won't need to apply for a work visa, once you're back from Romania.

Also, as an older person, one can still work 3 days per week in medicine or even just *moonlight*, keeping the hours in the 28-32 hours/week but still earning close to $100K. As an engineer, it's virtually impossible to be a lifelong contractor and find work, for a continuous 10-11 months per year like a doctor, given the lack of prowess in corporate America to maintain R&D and production facilities stateside, along with rampant age discrimination.

A part-time doctor beats working at a Home Depot or Bed & Breakfast, when corporate America decides to take one into the back shed.

In my case, I have the $250K from my hedge fund P/L already, but still, I'd choose eastern Europe over a private US med because I'm not so concerned about the prestige clinics or ultra competitive residencies. I simply want to be a productive person & I don't think trading is a meaningful endeavor in life.

CaptainShuddup says

Hey man come on, you haven't provided any data you've shown pictures, graphics in an article to support the authors assertions. Data is what I do. Good data is most always presented as is, it is only dirty extrapolations that the presenter has to play dress up with, and present it as charts.

Captain, can you provide a description of how recruiting happens in your sub-specialty? You can use aliases and such, to keep your companies' and individual names' private.

In general, the folks I knew in your shoes tended to have worked on specialized govt/defense projects, where they're always re-hired on a contractual basis, to keep let's say a satellite system going, for years or even decades at a time. In general, no new persons gained enough experience, to replace the old timer contractors in these types of arenas. But still, these fellows do have some sort of undergrad experience, like an associates degree, even if they didn't bother to get a full BA for the HR losers.

Rin says

Just for some closure on this topic, concerning medicine as a second career, a decent option is to attend either one's state program or go to eastern Europe [provided that the foreign school is listed, so that its graduates are able to sit for the US foreign medical licensing exam back home]; that'll lower the costs from $250K to $60K. If one takes the foreign path, assuming no slots in the state med, it pretty much excludes one getting into an elite surgical residency at a Hopkins or Mayo or an extremely selective program like Dermatology but there are plenty of lesser renown residencies for non-US school graduates. In addition, unlike internationals, you won't need to apply for a work visa, once you're back from Romania.

What about the language barrier? In Romania even the alphabet is different. You would be better of going to Croatia, Slovenia, or Poland where at least the alphabet is the same? I've been thinking about stuff like this sine I could easily get Polish citizenship, I assume that would help?

zzyzzx says

What about the language barrier? In Romania even the alphabet is different. You would be better of going to Croatia, Slovenia, or Poland where at least the alphabet is the same?

Well, these are the English programs at those schools, basically designed to make 'em more International and attract UK and Commonwealth students. And yes, you do need to spend more time there, since there are a couple of added years, to learn some of the local language, for the clinical rotations. But the costs, even with the added time, is still less than $70K overall.

zzyzzx says

I've been thinking about stuff like this sine I could easily get Polish citizenship, I assume that would help?

All the power to you, just check to see if you can take the foreign medical licensing exam from whatever program you're interested in, when you're back home.

I wonder why people are still loading up on debt and get college degrees. Sounds like a bad investment to me.

Perhaps erudition should replace education?

Peter P says

I wonder why people are still loading up on debt and get college degrees. Sounds like a bad investment to me.

Perhaps erudition should replace education?

Well, here's London Univ's distance program for a low tuition:

(http://www.londoninternational.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/lse/bsc-economics)

It is possible to work internships and do a UK program, like above, and then, fulfill the HR requirements, when you switch jobs.