patrick.net

Quigley says

1) Atheism is the belief that there is no God.
2) In an infinite universe, it is impossible to prove the nonexistence of someone or something.
3) Therefore atheists take the nonexistence of a deistic entity (and usually the supernatural too) as an article of faith, choosing to believe in "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen."(to quote Paul of the New Testament)

... every con artist wants you to believe them without evidence, "In things hoped for, of things unseen".

Tell me where you grew up, and I'll be uncannily accurate as to what your religion is. Religion is mythology, cultural BS. Another truth: The less educated and accomplished you are, the more likely you're religious. This applies both individually and by culture.

Cloud says

Does love exist? You use the word. You use the word hate. Hand it over atheist.

Yes love exists. You just won't find it with a cruel God or anyone who starves millions of babies. Even Satan has more compassion.
I suggest you stop reading fairy tales that say the earth is 6,000 years old.

Raw says

Yes love exists. You just won't find it with a cruel God or anyone who starves millions of babies. Even Satan has more compassion.

"Moses, what do you mean they didn't kill all but the virgin women? They left some boys and old men and old women alive?! Tell them to go back there and kill 'em all, for I am the Prince of Peace and God is Love."

"Elisha, don't worry dude, I'll send a she-bear to kill those kids who made fun of your bald head. After all, YAHWEH is Justice!"

I read it in a book.

Cloud says

Give me the list of just 10 Great Men who are or were atheists, just 10 Thunder. Ought to be easy right?

And we aren't talking about Oxford Dons who push around 21 year old college students. I am talking about Giants like Churchill, or Farrady, Pascal, George Washington....

I'm waiting...keep googling, you're gonna have to google. Good luck.

That's a very silly comment Cloud. Even for you.

You asked him to name 10 great atheists. That is a stupid request. You throw around names of people in history who were believers. So what? Go back just a short time and nearly everyone was a believer or kept quiet about their lack of belief. You could say Newton was a believer or Galileo, and again, I'd say so what. There's a very good chance that if those people had been born in recent times, then they'd be atheists.
Anyway, that has nothing to do with your stupid request to name 10 great atheists. The vast majority of scientists are atheists. There are rather more than 10 great men amongst them even if you are a self-proclaimed luddite. Do you see my point?
And no, I don't think all believers are stupid. Personally, I think they're all deluding themselves, but as for being stupid, well that's surely case by case, is it not?

Cloud says

Raw, I suggest you stop making assumptions.

So let me get this straight:

The smartest people in the world. The artists, the politicians, the scientists, entertainers, those who built great wealth, those who gave us all the good things are just stupid people believing in a fairy tale?

Hmmmm, I think I will hang with Pascal rather than what's his name? Darrell Dawkins?

Are you kidding? Is this a joke?
93% of scientists outright reject the existence of God. The remaining 7% probably want nothing to do with religion.
http://www.humanevents.com/2010/06/17/the-atheistdominated-national-academy-of-sciences/

This is the greatest 5 min video you will ever see.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/fdVucvo-kDU

You will burn in hell for turning on the lights.....

Raw says

This is the greatest 5 min video you will ever see.

Raw says

This is the greatest 5 min video you will ever see.

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fdVucvo-kDU)

That is an excellent video, and it answers the earlier request to name 10 great atheists. It also provides another reason why many religious people hate atheists: the Bible tells them to, and their preachers tell them to also. (The OT also tells people to execute anyone who forgets the sabbath, which can be especially problematic because the three Abrahamic faiths have different sabbaths.)

There is an issue of definition though. The video calls Warren Buffett and Bill Gates atheists, but they call themselves agnostic. Either way, they aren't religious.

Still, it offers an excellent response to those who call religion "the" foundation of morality: the two most generous philanthropists in the world are not religious at all. Generosity and morality come from within, not from religion, while religion is too often used to divide people against each other.

curious2 says

This is the greatest 5 min video you will ever see.

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=fdVucvo-kDU)

That is an excellent video, and it answers the earlier request to name 10 great atheists. It also provides another reason why many religious people hate atheists: the Bible tells them to, and their preachers tell them to also. (The OT also tells people to execute anyone who forgets the sabbath, which can be especially problematic because the three Abrahamic faiths have different sabbaths.)

There is an issue of definition though. The video calls Warren Buffett and Bill Gates atheists, but they call themselves agnostic. Either way, they aren't religious.

Still, it offers an excellent response to those who call religion "the" foundation of morality: the two most generous philanthropists in the world are not religious at all. Generosity and morality come from within, not from religion, while religion is too often used to divide people against each other.

Glad you liked the video. It is one of my favorites.
Atheists/agnostics are some of the most decent, smartest, kindest, intelligent and educated people on the planet. Almost everything has been invented by them.
PS. An agnostic is often described as "atheist without balls"

Raw says

93% of scientists outright reject the existence of God. The remaining 7% probably want nothing to do with religion.

The remaining 7% make bling on selling books and thus cannot say how absurd the notion of a god is.

Raw says

PS. An agnostic is often described as "atheist without balls"

I describe them as closeted atheists. No one is agnostic about unicorns or polytheistic gods like Thor and Odin. Other than social and political pressure, why would anyone be agnostic about monotheistic gods but not polytheistic gods? It's not a weak statement to say "There might be one god, but there sure the hell isn't two.". That's a far stronger statement than saying there are no gods and requires more justification.

If you accept the possibility of a single being creating the universe but can't stomach the possibility of four thousands beings creating the universe, you aren't a real agnostic.

Of course, monotheists who advocate a "god of the gaps" to explain the creation of the universe will absolutely refuse to accept the possibility that there could have been many beings cooperating on the creation of the universe. And why not? Because if there is more than one god, they could disagree. And if they can disagree, then morality is not absolute. And if morality is not absolute, then the individual, selfish humans who claim to speak for the divine couldn't have a monopoly on moral authority and control of other people.

And that is why monotheism replaced polytheism at the time when city-states became nation-states and empires. When you want to be a dictator, including dictators of morality, it helps to have unquestioning centralized authority.

Dan, I was really trying to overlook this, but you keep repeating it. In the Judeo/Christian holy books, Commandment #1 states: "I am the Lord your God: you shall have no other gods before me."

I'm no lawyer, but that statement by the deity of three major world religions sort of mandates the existence of other gods. Small "g" in case you missed that.
I'm not sure who told you that religious folk only believe in the existence of one god, but you're operating from a faulty assumption. Sorry for destroying your argument. Regards.

Dan8267 says

And that is why monotheism replaced polytheism at the time when city-states became nation-states and empires. When you want to be a dictator, including dictators of morality, it helps to have unquestioning centralized authority.

That is consistent with the history of Constantine and Christianity, but there are caveats. Constantine established Christianity as the dominant religion in the Roman empire, partly because he thought (incorrectly) that having one dominant religion would stabilize the empire and end the civil wars. His decision drove in a sense both the (political) rise and (spiritual) fall of Christianity, because he locked the early Christians in (literally) to agreeing on one specific set of gospel narratives, dismissing apocrypha and accepting the compromises that go along with power. It is also worth noting Rome rose as a republic with freedom of religion, then fell as a Christian empire.

As for monotheism, Christianity isn't really monotheistic. First there is the trinity, then the pantheon of saints with divine powers. Today Italians praying to their patron saints look very similar to ancient Romans praying to their assorted gods.

Also, in the context of dictators and authority, polytheism isn't necessarily a defense. The Vatican threatened to kill Galileo and forced him to renounce his heresy that the earth revolves around the sun, but the ancient Greeks did the same to Aristarchos for the same reason. (In fact, they may have killed him.) The main dynamic is the ego: people want to see themselves as the center of everything, with the sun and stars revolving around them, and they react negatively to anything that threatens their self-importance. This goes back to the OP video and romantic rejection: the woman scorned, having believed that the unbeliever should revolve around her, that they should revolve around each other, feels rejected when he refuses to revolve around her, just as the Vatican reacted to Galileo and the ancient Greeks reacted to Aristarchos for saying the sun didn't revolve around them.

Quigley says

I'm not sure who told you that religious folk only believe in the existence of one god, but you're operating from a faulty assumption. Sorry for destroying your argument. Regards.

Because they do. Just ask them.

Cloud says

By the way Raw, who is Carl Sagan...? What did he do but appear on PBS? No child from the next generation will ever have heard his name.

Presumably ignorance is bliss for you.

Cloud says

For the record an atheist activist uses the word "love" but can not hand it over to me.

You're looking for some man love? Surely there are other forums for that.

Cloud says

Good answer Big. Says more about you than me.

I get a big kick out of liberals who are so open to gays, they use the accusation of homo sexually as an insult.

Wind your neck back in. You're the one who keeps asking for love from people on this forum whilst dishing out insults and posting nonsense. And I didn't say anything about it being an insult, you did. I also don't want to be American. There are too many idiots like you in the country to wish for that.

Cloud says

I think the title to Dan's "Imagine No Religion" should be "Imagine No Radical Religion." Isn't this what he is really saying?

Probably not. I know he wants a world without God, but I wonder, does he want a government that protects those who wish to worship him?

Nah, he quite clearly wants a government that murders anyone who continues to believe in their religion. A serious question Cloud, why do you keep posting your drivel?

Cloud says

Why do you keep replying to it?

Your wrong-headedness needs to be addressed. It's a forum after all. But at least you admitted to it being drivel.

Cloud says

It referring to what you called "it."

Can you be more specific regarding what you define as drivel?

Your posts.

Raw says

We don't burn witches at the stake.
We don't stone women to death.
We don't kill our children because God says so.
We don't believe in slavery.

But state atheism *has* done atrocities in the name of wiping out religion. There was the French Revolution. The Russian Revolution. The Cultural Revolution in China. Look it up.

Most atheists are not violent. Most religious people are not violent. Ideological extemists are, of course, and there have been ideological extremists both religious and secular. It's a historical fact.

Cloud says

Copernicus, Bacon, Kepler, Galilei, Descartes, Pascal, Newton Boyle, Kelvin... recognize anyone of those names Raw.....and on and on....

If it wasn't for a believer you wouldn't be tapping on a computer right now.

Let's try again. I'll make it simpler. Name just 5 great scientists who are atheists. Go ahead. Dawkins? That's it? He will not be remembered in 30 years. Hell, he is not remembered now. The average citizen has never heard of him.

Newton, yes.

Cloud, I sense a lot of desperation in your words. I don't blame you as religion is dying. The more educated a society is, the less will they believe in God. Religion has limited value in the 21st century, and it is time to call it quits. Check this out....
How Will The Shocking Decline Of Christianity In America Affect The ...
endoftheamericandream.com/.../how-will-the-shocking-decline-of-...Jan 18, 2012 – Without a doubt, the religious landscape of America is changing. Over the past several decades, church attendance has been steadily declining ...

Sorry...
http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/how-will-the-shocking-decline-of-christianity-in-america-affect-the-future-of-this-nation

Cloud says

Copernicus, Bacon, Kepler, Galilei, Descartes, Pascal, Newton Boyle, Kelvin... recognize anyone of those names Raw.....and on and on....

If it wasn't for a believer you wouldn't be tapping on a computer right now.

Let's try again. I'll make it simpler. Name just 5 great scientists who are atheists. Go ahead. Dawkins? That's it? He will not be remembered in 30 years. Hell, he is not remembered now. The average citizen has never heard of him.

Newton, yes.

Why just 5 Cloud?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_atheists_in_science_and_technology

Cloud says

Raw, I consider many of the Greats throughout history the very best educated. What century would you like me to start in? The list of Greatest books ever written were by those who believed in God.

Also every society has tried to describe him or her or it or them. Guess you self-described and self-appointed atheists activists are a lonely bunch huh?

Cloud, you cannot be both a good Christian and a good scientist at the same time.
A good Christian must believe the earth is 6,000 years old, but a good scientist knows it is 13.5 billion years old.
Most scientists who you claim were Christians were really atheists in the closet. If I was a scientist in the Middle Ages, or even in the Middle East today, do you think I would proclaim myself to be an atheist? No, I would not, because I like my head attached to my body.

Cloud says

By the way, even if it were true that church attendance is declining it doesn't necessarily mean folks are becoming atheists. So check yourself.

That would be true. However, it does mean society is moving away from religion. My prediction....By the year 2100 religion will be reduced to the status of a cult.

Cloud, I do not proclaim to be an "Einstein" or even close. Just an average guy who eats an apple a day. I eat well, exercise daily, environmentalist to the core and agnostic.
Common sense says if you are in a society that persecutes atheists, then atheists will just walk into the closet.
By the way here is more proof religion is rapidly declining. Please sit down and stay away from sharp objects before you read this.
http://www.kfbk.com/pages/KFBKAfternoonNews.html?article=10348328

Cloud says

"Most religious people are not violent. Ideological extemists are, of course, and there have been ideological extremists both religious and secular. It's a historical fact."

And the ones who are violent, are violent because of religion.
A Noble prize winner in physics (forget his name) said.....
"Good people do good things, bad people do bad things, but it takes religion to make a good person do bad things"
You want an example...911.

Cloud says

I think the title to Dan's "Imagine No Religion" should be "Imagine No Radical Religion." Isn't this what he is really saying?

No, I don't think people should make national policy based on astrology either. All religion is delusional. All superstition ins delusional. And they are all dangerous, to varying degrees, but all dangerous nonetheless.

As soon as someone replaces rational cause and effect for superstition bullshit, that person shouldn't be in charge of the economy, the educational system, the free world, or America's nuclear arsenal.

Cloud says

Probably not. I know he wants a world without God, but I wonder, does he want a government that protects those who wish to worship him?

We already have a world without your god. Believing in a fictional character doesn't make him real.

And who exactly in our country is taking arms against those who wish to worship fictional characters? Exactly what protection is our government actively offering people who engage in superstitious rituals like Catholicism, witchcraft, tarot card reading, etc. When was the last time a witch was burned in this country -- not including Kansas?

Bigsby says

Nah, he quite clearly wants a government that murders anyone who continues to believe in their religion. A serious question Cloud, why do you keep posting your drivel?

Exactly. I promote the idea that people start thinking and abandoning superstition and Cloud makes a Straw Man argument that I'm calling for the military to attack churches. People who make Straw Man arguments do so because they know their position is utterly groundless.

Cloud says

Why do you keep replying to it?

There is a purpose to ridiculing the village idiot. The purpose is to make sure no one else takes the job.

freak80 says

But state atheism *has* done atrocities in the name of wiping out religion. There was the French Revolution. The Russian Revolution. The Cultural Revolution in China. Look it up.

Hardly. The Soviet Union was a political power grab. It had nothing to do with advancing atheism just like Hitler's evilness had nothing to do with mustaches. The Soviet Union would have been an evil empire had it been Christian or any other religion. Tyranny is evil independent of religion.

Not a single atheist organization calls for the assassination of political opponents like Lennon did. Christians do call for bombing abortion clinics and wiping out the Muslim world. Muslims call for honor killings of rape victims and suicide attacks. These positions are intrinsic to those religions. Bush invaded Iraq and killed a million men, women, and children because "god told" him to do so. Unjust laws are written in our country on the basis of religion. Education is compromised with lies because of religion. Atheism does none of these harms, and theists can't stand that fact which is why they always make up bullshit about atheists.

Raw says

Cloud, I sense a lot of desperation in your words. I don't blame you as religion is dying. The more educated a society is, the less will they believe in God.

So true. With knowledge comes the realization that all religions are lies and motivated by selfish and evil reasons.

Religion will eventually die, starting in developed nations. The only question is whether or not it will die fast enough to avoid Armageddon and to limit the damage to human life, the environment, and liberty.

Raw says

Why just 5 Cloud?

Appeal to authority is weak, especially when the examples come from a time when you'd be burned alive if you didn't say you believed in Christ.

Cloud says

By the way, even if it were true that church attendance is declining it doesn't necessarily mean folks are becoming atheists. So check yourself.

Atheism Rises, Religiosity Declines In America

Happy Easter! Christianity is Dying.

Hence, most of our problems.

Raw says

Cloud, you cannot be both a good Christian and a good scientist at the same time.

I'd also argue that you can't be both a good Christian and a republican. Jesus…

1. Would have forgiven Osama bin Laden and not have attacked Al Qaeda.
2. Is the mother of all communists, gives away free health care, and says you must give away all your possessions to follow him.
3. Never carried a weapon, was a pacifist, and would be anti-gun since he advocated no human has the right to take another human's life even in self-defense. You have to turn the other cheek and trust in god to save you or become a martyr.

Christianity is utterly incompatible with capitalism, the Republican platform, gun rights, a large military, and NASCAR.

Cloud says

Raw, now you are losing the argument by assuming I am Christian.

One doesn't have to assume it as it's obvious from your postings. You aren't the type to defend a group that you do not belong to. You are vicious and tribal. But hey, denounce your religion. Go ahead and tell us how false the Christian god and Jesus are.

Raw says

You want an example...911.

9/11 was a faith-based initiative.

Cloud says

"Christians do call for bombing abortion clinics and wiping out the Muslim world." Bull shit.

Extremists took down the towers, not religious people. Your title "Imagine no Religion" is disingenuous.

They were religious extremists. Those are religious people.

Religious organizations should be treated as any other non-profit organization.

That includes keeping the books, proving they didn't spend all the donations on a palace and multiple Porsches for the Leadership (ie Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn), they do not simply invest contributions but actually spend it towards their goals as claimed by their charter, etc.

They should definitely pay property tax, however.

thunderlips11 says

Religious organizations should be treated as any other non-profit organization.

That includes keeping the books, proving they didn't spend all the donations on a palace and multiple Porsches for the Leadership (ie Creflo Dollar, Benny Hinn), they do not simply invest contributions but actually spend it towards their goals as claimed by their charter, etc.

They should definitely pay property tax, however.

Homo Economicus. A Legendary Creature, like Bigfoot, claimed to exist by Pseudoscientists.

Religious contribution are tax deductible. In effect I am paying for promoting fairy tales to adults. I demand we stick to separation of church and state.

Dan8267 says

Religion will eventually die, starting in developed nations. The only question is whether or not it will die fast enough to avoid Armageddon and to limit the damage to human life, the environment, and liberty.

I pray everyday for a quick end to religion before this takes place. In some ways it is taking place now.

Oh Lord, save us from the Quotes of Cowardly Atheist/Agnostic Einstein.

Cloud says

So that will leave you and about a thousand others to run the country.

As low as my opinion of Americans is, it's higher than yours.

Cloud says

I asked you do you want a country that protects the right to worship God?

It passes no laws regarding religion. It enforces laws against violence.

Cloud says

"Christians do call for bombing abortion clinics and wiping out the Muslim world." Bull shit.

Extremists took down the towers, not religious people. Your title "Imagine no Religion" is disingenuous.

Yeah, there are only a few hundred million "extremists" in the Middle East. Hardly representative. Most Muslims are orthodox Jews.

Cloud says

Atheists don't belong to the tribe of atheism?

After we've burnt the first theist at the stake until he's dead, you can call us a tribe. Until then, you're full of shit.

thunderlips11 says

Religious organizations should be treated as any other non-profit organization.

How are religious organizations non-profit. I think Jimmy Swaggart and the pope disproved that.

thunderlips11 says

They should definitely pay property tax, however.

Definitely.

Cloud says

What is your problem with a sincere and iconic believer and doubter like Einstein.

I don't have a problem with people. I have a problem with lies, bad laws, misinformation, the decline of our educational system, wars started because of religion including the Iraq War, and the harm done to advancing real morality and ethics by religion.

One can stamp out all of religion by educating the public. Doing so harms no individual.

I don't have a problem with people. I have a problem with evil and wrong ideas.

Raw says

A good Christian must believe the earth is 6,000 years old, but a good scientist knows it is 13.5 billion years old.

That isn't necessarily true, in spite of what Ken Ham might tell you. The six creation "days" in Genesis cannot be taken literally since there was no sun until the fourth "day." The Bible is not a technical manual on scientific matters.

Cloud says

"It passes no laws regarding religion. It enforces laws against violence."

Wierd response.

Yes or no. Do you support the First Amendment?

What a dumb question. Just because I support the First Amendment like everyone else in the country, doesn't mean I support religion.

I believe in freedom of speech, but if someone says factually incorrect things like Obama banned guns, I'm going to expose those arguments as lies.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

And true, Congress doesn't make any law prohibiting religion. Now, Congress may make laws prohibiting the kidnapping and murdering of people, so there goes human sacrifice, a time-honored tradition of religion. But that's ok because anit-murder laws are about suppressing religion, they are about protecting people's right to live, as opposed to voter ID laws which are about prohibiting people from exercising their right to vote.

Cloud says

And the government doesn't enforce all laws against violence. You have a right to protect yourself and others. We have a right to go to war. Police can use deadly force.

No shit Sherlock. That's not what I said. Once again you take things out of context and represent them as what they are not. Did you really think that I was stating that the law prevents the police or other people from using violence to defend themselves or others? Seriously, did you really think that?