patrick.net

I have looked into the truther stuff and I don't believe it. Most of the discussions are plain whacky, levitation, and photoshopped jumpers, faked deaths of passengers, govt. airplanes.

The most compelling ideas are the building collapses being implausible because steel cannot melt unless high temperatures, so thermite explosives were used. I don't buy that either

It doesn't matter because the steel did not melt, it expanded and weakened. These were extreme circumstances of an airplane going through a building at 500 miles an hours The normal rules don't always follow.

I think some people just have too much time on their hands. Some people are naturally paranoid and don't believe anything. Some are still searching for Obama's birth certificate.

I recently read a synopsis of an article which concluded after another analysis of the dust and it does NOT contain thermite.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/64959841/9119ProgressReport022912_rev1_030112webHiRes.pdf

This guy has a series of youtube clips that debunk every point the truthers make. Here is one on WTC 7. He also has ones for the Pentagone and WTC 1 and 2.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/tacYjsS-g6k

I already discussed this in the other 9/11 thread. "The Professor" just ignored me.

All this truther stuff is slightly intriguing for a while but then all the allegations of inside job just fall like a house of cards when you see the real explanations for everything.

The Professor says

The top of the Tower is getting pulverized Before it hits the rest of the building. Huge amounts of explosives seem to be involved.

Actually, the top of the tower is still intact in that photo, the building has begun to collapse exactly at the spot where the plane hit it, and there are no explosives to be seen. Both of your sentences are incorrect.

The Professor says

I see shock and awe. What do you see?

A building collapsing.

The Professor says

I see shock and awe. What do you see?

I see a building collapsing. I also see a huge piece of the building falling wildly off to the right side. If that is supposed to be a controlled demolition, it is the most poorly controlled CD in history. I also find it interesting that he used a video with no sound. Was this because the so-called "explosions" don't make any noise, as we can tell from the several videos that were shot with sound?

Basically what happened is the men who were training the pilots of the terror cells who were to fly the planes into the towers blew the cover to the FBI. They told the FBI, these guys only wanted to know how to fly, they don't care about taking off or landing so they knew what they were training for which is called hijacking. What did the FBI say?, they said no law against that.

Terrorists had tried taking down the towers several times before, and our government really needed an excuse to go into the middle east, did they let them get away with this?

My best guess is yes they did, although I've heard a million and one reasons why our government is so stupid they did not know any better.

I don't subscribe to any of truther stuff, I draw my own analogies. These guys had access to concrete builders and engineers, to think that terrorists are just plain stupid, many of these guys have considerable education, access to engineers, tried a couple of times before (learned from mistakes), and are pretty darn smart about things the average stupid American will never be able to wrap his head around.

The professor says :

I see explosions. I hear a LOT of noise. I see a building with MASSIVE amounts of explosives blowing apart a very strong steel framed building. I see concrete pulverised. I see beams flung outward at high speed. I see an explosion sequence that destroys the whole building and makes it fall at near freefall speed to the ground in a wide field of debris.\\

The only sounds the buildings made was the rumbling of the collapse. There were not booming explosion sounds that you would hear with detonations being set off as in the Seattle Superdome.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/OZkr0A9633Q&feature=related

The buildings did not fall at free fall rate. They took 15 seconds or more. Feel fall would be 9 seconds.

Those are two contradictions to what you are saying. You are asking us to contradict you. Well, there you go.

The Professor says

It would be illogical if there were not 3 buildings.

The two towers were destroyed by massive explosives and spread a wide field of debris and spread pulverized concrete all over Manhattan. WTC7 was a more conventional demolition and mostly fell down into it's own footprint.

I don't understand your point. Do you believe the towers were destroyed by controlled demolition, or do you believe the towers were destroyed by planes crashing into them and the subsequent fires? It has to be one or the other, correct?

The Professor says

You say "collapse" I say "Pulverized!".

The video you posted actually proves my point. For the first 7 seconds of the video, you can clearly see the top of the tower falling, still intact, and you can follow it down until it is behind the cloud of debris and no longer visible. You wrote that the top of the tower was "pulverized before it hits the rest of the building". Looking at the video, clearly that does not happen. For the entire 7 seconds that the top of the tower is visible, it is intact. At no time is it "pulverized before it hits the rest of the building", nor does it "explode into powder in mid air".

If you cannot see this, then I would suggest you watch the video again until you can see it.

Q: Does the commentator say the building has "collapsed", or does he say it has "exploded"?

A: He says it has collapsed.

The Professor says

Literally all of the floor concrete, gypsum wallboard, and FF&E, including elevators and HVAC equipment... for 110 stories of each building, an enormous weight, was pulverized to a toxic powder as fine as talcum, in mid air in seconds...and it spread out like a volcanic pyroclastic flow, over lower Manhattan...while the melted and distorted steel frames, collapse in a heap below."

Do you know of any other examples in history of this being done to a skyscraper with "super thermite"?

The Professor says

9/11 was not funny. It was murder that led to more murder.

WE, the people, have been at war for more than a decade against an idea, terrorism. It is even more abstract than the still un-won war on drugs.

The real war is on liberty.

So far, so good.

The Professor says

The implications of even believing the possibility of an inside job leads down a very chilling path of ideas. It would not hurt to have an independent investigation by an impartial non-government group.

And this is where you started going overboard.

Instead of all this nonsense about 9/11 being an "inside job", I would suggest you concentrate on the story that the very flawed RESPONSE to 9/11 was an inside job, and how to rectify-undo-avoid those mistakes as best we can.

When you start blathering about "controlled explosions" and such, you are doing everyone a great disservice.

My personal opinion is that other things being equal, a simpler explanation is better than a more complex one.

For me, it is easier to see how some jackasses highjacked a plane and flew them in the WTC. The aircaft and fuel weakend the structure, and it all came tumbling down.

It is much to complex to believe some organization would pull off all the things you describe and link it to the government. It is more simple and plausible to understand that the government didn't act on intelligence and some random jackasses pulled off a modern day sneak attack.

Yeah but that's no answer to anything. It's only an explanation of your feelings.

So my understanding of the situation is that the big towers did fall due to a thermite reaction. I believe this is now the official report as well. However, the reaction was not due to explosive charges.

The reaction occurred in the center of the building around the elevator shafts. These were steel, and over the course of time rusted. This provided the iron oxide needed for the thermite reaction.

The airplanes provide the aluminum need for the reaction. The key to getting the thermite reaction going is energy, and this unfortunately was provided by the fuel of the planes. Once the reaction got going it weakened the core of the buildings and brought them down.

This doesn't explain building 7, but it seems pretty reasonable explanation for the other buildings.

Oliver

Clearly interested in the evidence. Truther 'evidence.'

The Professor says

An illustration of the official story of how the Tower collapsed.

And how, pray tell, does that represent the official version of what happened? Come on, explain it.

The Professor says

Bigsby says

The logical conclusion? What? No, it's not. It's a clear misrepresentation.

Can't you see the similiarity between the 2 diagrams?

They were both drawn using a computer?

Hi Professor,

Thank you for starting the two threads discussing the tragic controlled demolition of the World Trade Center. I see a lot of indisputable evidence being disputed by those in denial or misinformation campaigners.

Not sure if you've seen this video, but it clearly shows the missing "pile driver" of top floors due to pulverization and ejection by explosives.

It would be comforting to believe that the World Trade Center was destroyed by a highly organized, and well funded, conspiracy to attack the Middle East, but the evidence isn't there.

You should simply apply the logic, of logistics.

To carry out the proposed theory hundreds of people would be involved, going through the building over time, coordinating efforts, and be in communication with each other.

That didn't happen.

A guy with about $500K, the price of a California house, put together a rag tag group with a simple plan. It happened to work, by accident, or fluke, or was really well targeted.

It makes no difference because we also have the Pentagon to look at. Where was the concerted effort there?

Engineers want to make out like this was a conspiracy because no one wants to think that some guy, any guy, can make this bold of a statement without much planning.

Simple plans do succeed, complex conspiracies have way too many chances for failure.

There is no evidence. The only evidence that was obtained was from a wreckage it took years to clear.

What I find more compelling is that Bush ran off to attack Iraq rather than target Osama bin Laden in Afganistan.

Literally I think in the world of conspiracies you are looking at the smoke, and mirrors of the twin towers when the real conspiracy was Bush rushing the judgement of Iraqi involvement.

I think Bush, and his handling of the tradgedy, are much more the obvious target here.

You want the truth about the investigation being rushed? It was rushed so that Bush could move forward with a preconceived agenda.

You said flawed, and I said rushed.

You don't want to go down this conspiracy theory rabbit hole.

Bush was demanding answers that fit his larger agenda that had Iraq financing this act of terrorism.

That first year of investigation was seriously looking for a larger, organized group than just 19 people. We were running around the globe, torturing people, making them confess, and sending them to Gitmo, out of sight.

As hard as every one has tried, no big terrorist organization has been found.

We call it Al Quida, but what we find is armed militias.

No one wants to say that a group of no more than 24 guys, with $500K could do this much damage, at will, on American soil.

The Professor says

Newtons Laws says

Not sure if you've seen this video, but it clearly shows the missing "pile driver" of top floors due to pulverization and ejection by explosives.

I just started this thread. The other discussion was too full of personal attack and trolling.

@Newtons Law What video?

You forgot to include the link.

Apologies for the technical difficulties. New to the auto-formatting on this site:
http://www.youtube.com/embed/ZvUQRF0ygiI

Oh, alrighty, as long as you persist, yes the government is covering up a complete lack of care, or concern, about the real threats to the United States.

First let me says that architects, and engineers have this belief that they draw the specs, and that's the way things should be, well they aren't. Between the paper that the plans are drawn on, and the construction actual economics take place. Concrete gets watered down, steel of lesser quality is used. Everything may pass inspection, and code but this really looks like a very plausible wreckage.

As far as foundation liquification, the theory I would think be proposed is that the ground shook for an extended period of time, the soil below building seven became unstable, the piling system failed, and the building collapsed onto itself.
http://dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/36526/32824988.pdf?sequence=1

In the world of conspiracies the World Trade Center is the last act of a plot that went on for decades, and was ignored by our arrogant government.

The arrogance of the United States government continued through our boots on the ground appraoch to kill Saddam Hussein, and the fact that we, like every other occupier, got run out of Afganistan by a bunch of militia men, and women.

You can not fight these people, but you can negotiate.

The same conspiracy is playing out today with Iran, Syria, and now Lebanon.

You have become another cog in the wheel of that conspiracy that is covering up the New World Order that we are losing.

Look over there at the Twin Towers, but don't look at Iraq, Iran, Libya, Tunisia, Egypt, or Syria.

It's all about oil, World War Two, Israel, and global economics.

Like I said you really don't want to go there, because it has to do with your individual freedoms, and a dream your government has that it can control the New World Order. Well, they can't.

Absolutely, without question, there was shoddy construction.

More than that, or covering that up, or getting the insurance companies to pay, the United States had an agenda to fulfill.

Osama bin Laden was our boy, the same as Mubarack, Gaddafi, and Saddam. These were the dictators George Bush Senior was talking about, and yet these were the guys doing our dirty work after World War Two, and the formation of Israel.

You don't want to go there, no one does, and we are now faced with the very real possibility a guy like Romney may be elected who will unravel everything that has been done to free the people of North Africa.

Free markets, not free loaders.

The Professor says

I have found some very compelling new evidence AGAINST the demolition of WTC.

I will have to investigate further.

Does anyone know about NMSR?

http://www.nmsr.org/nmsr911.htm

Why is nmsr911 information any more compelling than the hundreds of posts that said the exact same thing (many were the same articles) that you totally dismissed? ae911 vs nmsr911? I wonder if there is a relation? Are you setting up to get donations from both sides of the argument? Very slick work Rich. Follow the money.

History tells you everything you need to know. You're focusing upon detailed specifics instaed of charactoristics of every major event in the last 100 years.

All the breakdowns are under the control and scope of the very same entity that increases both scope and control after the tragic event. The means or assistance and the end result are moot, because it's the inner circle of control that always comes out on top.

An overview; a total breakdown in security, murky security/events that mirror the tragic violence
scapegost is/was interconnected to the government itself in some way or form
strict resistance and control of, with an illogical outcome where blame can only be upon it's own neglect
government increases it's scope and control

WW2, JFK, Vietnam, Gulf War, 9/11, this goes on and on

Just as frequent as the murder of a married person's suspect is the spouse,
always look within first. Anything else is tail-chasing.

More food for thought: One family has either financed, supported, helped maintain their power of, about every well known dictator/despot for close to 100 years.

From Hitler, to Saddam, Osama, Quadhaffi, Shaw of Iran, and numerous others. That same family seems to always be around or part of the group who take the aforementioned OUT of power.

And, there's another member of that family who is considered to be somewhat smarter, but far more sinister, just waiting in the shadows for the year 2016 to come around. Lookout Saudi Arabia, as their power has surpassed their usefulness.

The Professor says

The real war is on liberty.

True. 9/11 was an excuse the government used to demolish even basic human and civil rights. The Bush administration didn't use explosives to bring down any buildings, but that administration did choose to ignore the threat -- Bid Laden Determined to Attack in the United States -- so that they could use the resulting tragedy for political gain. Dick Cheney got his Pearl Harbor, and all he had to do was nothing.

The Bush administration let 9/11 happen. They didn't participate in it. They just let it happen. And they would have done it again because letting 9/11 happen is why Bush got a second term and was able to implement all his evil policies. For Republicans, 9/11 is the best thing they could hope for and given a chance to prevent it, they wouldn't.

Dan8267 says

The Professor says

The real war is on liberty.

True. 9/11 was an excuse the government used to demolish even basic human and civil rights. The Bush administration didn't use explosives to bring down any buildings, but that administration did choose to ignore the threat -- Bid Laden Determined to Attack in the United States -- so that they could use the resulting tragedy for political gain. Dick Cheney got his Pearl Harbor, and all he had to do was nothing.

The Bush administration let 9/11 happen. They didn't participate in it. They just let it happen. And they would have done it again because letting 9/11 happen is why Bush got a second term and was able to implement all his evil policies. For Republicans, 9/11 is the best thing they could hope for and given a chance to prevent it, they wouldn't.

That's pretty much how I see it - Occam's razor.

mell says

That's pretty much how I see it - Occam's razor.

yeah, I wouldn't put it past them "letting" it happen.

Not necessarily the whole suicide plane part, but the hijackings themselves, since in the past arab extremist hijackings were resolved without too much brouhaha, maybe a passenger or two killed, no biggie.

In this thesis, perhaps the "Truther" movement is counter-intelligence intended to 'poison the well' here about actual admin culpability.

Not that people aren't crazy enough to gin up this stuff on their own.

The Professor says

Does anyone remember the anthrax attacks?

I was thinking about this the other day. The FBI tortured Irvin into suicide by leaking all kinds of personal things that he did or wrote without charging him, but it was an entirely circumstantial case. They searched his house and effects countless times but never could match the time frame and batches he worked with with the samples from the letters. They had all the samples from the letters, samples from the labs, and abundant records, plus years to analyze them, but could never tie the batches he worked with nor any of his effects to the anthrax letters.

At one point they were going to write him off as a suspect but I believe political pressure "to find somebody, anybody", led them to simply harass Irvin constantly in hopes he would go nuts and have a meltdown, which would make him look guilty.

Remember Richard Jewell, the security guard at the Olympics? What happened to him reminds me of what happened to Irvin. The FBI and the newsmedia slandered his ass for months, leaked all kinds of personal shit, but he turned out to be 100% innocent; it was Eric Rudolph who did it (and, in fact, called in the bomb threat 10 minutes AFTER Jewell found the bag and notified the authorities) I believe he sued them and won.

The Professor says

Does anyone remember the anthrax attacks?

Yeah, the terrorist attacks that happened after 9/11 which give lie to the Republican talking point that "Bush kept us safe after September 11".

finehoe says

"Bush kept us safe after September 11".

Like Obama prevented a Depression and created Jobs.

Feed 'em beans and fuck 'em up the ass, American people will believe anything.

As open-minded as ever I see.

The Professor says

Even some of the investigators admitted that they did not believe the results
of the report

Can you provide the quotes?

The Professor says

All I hope to achieve from this thread is to inform more people of the controversy and make an attempt at debating the deniers.

Debate the deniers? What on Earth does that mean? You and your ilk are the deniers. And you have already long ago drawn your conclusions. You always trot out this line about being open and interested in the debate, etc. etc. No, you aren't. Your posts show that to be a lie. You are a conspiracist. You are just trying to give yourself a bit of credibility, but you are clearly being disingenuous, so it actually gives you less.

The Professor says

http://georgewashington.blogspot.com/2007/10/former-nist-employee-blows-whistle.html

There are no quotes in that link. It is an anonymous redacted email on a blog. Pretty much worthless.

When you say the investigators admitted that they did not believe the results, I'd expect an attributed quote from a prominent investigator.

I'll assume you were exaggerating again...