patrick.net

Ego. They come to believe that they ARE God, partly because God coincidentally believes exactly what they believe even when nobody else does:

http://patrick.net/?p=1216085

As an added bonus, being God means they are superior and immortal, and that all of their actions (no matter how evil) are God's will. That bonus is particularly useful if you want to make a name for yourself by flying an airplane into a building. No need to feel sorry, or even claim that the Devil "made you" do it, you did it for God, who despite being omnipotent somehow needs your help because you are even more powerful than God, who seems to need help manifesting anywhere outside your head, and also requires the help of preachers who must be paid and obeyed without end. (Preachers' reasons for pretending to believe, e.g. Pat Robertson's million$$ and private jet, are pretty obvious. As Sinead O'Connor observed, the problem with the Vatican is it's run by atheists.)

michaelsch says

--IT IS FORBIDDEN TO TALK ABOUT RELIGION IN SCHOOL!!!!

The rest of the conversation is not very important, but it boils down to the fact that there is no way to openly talk about this in American society.

Fucking Liberal Creeps!

This is the shit that Obama will lose over. There's a serious blatant war on Christianity in this country. Notice I didn't say religion?
It should be forbidden to talk about Gays in school as well, or Liberal policies, in fact Politics should be barred from school. That way! If kids can't be free to express them selves as per they way they are raised at home. You wont have some sodomite Liberal pervert, adulterating their minds with gay smut and Filth.

Am I doing it right?

michaelsch says

Religious atheists are more than welcome!

No such thing.

michaelsch says

--IT IS FORBIDDEN TO TALK ABOUT RELIGION IN SCHOOL!!!!

No, it is not. Children stretch the truth at times (what a surprise!). There is such thing as freedom of speech. Some school systems teach both Scientific & Creationism theories of evolution. The schools in Utah allow an hour of instruction into the class schedule for "Institute," which is Mormon instruction, from the 9th grade on. There is a building across the street from every high school to accomodate for this instruction. So, religion is allow to be spoken about in school.

Children speak about sex, drugs, rocky & roll, christianity, judism, muslinism, how to sneak out of the house without getting caught, and how to cheat on their final exams.

Why aren't you pissed about all that, Ten Pound?

michaelsch says

Reasons why people want to believe in God

There are several reasons why people delude themselves into thinking there is a god. All of them are bad reasons, although some are far worse than others.

1. People cannot deal with their own mortality.

The thought of death scares people so much that they simply cannot deal with the truth that they will cease to exist. There is some evidence that the belief in afterlives, reincarnation, and gods are an evolved response to human brains becoming large enough to contemplate mortality. Essentially, our genes trick us into thinking we'll live forever in some form in order to prevent us from failing to accomplish the mission of our genes, which is to reproduce. You see, genes can be immortal, but their hosts are not.

Ultimately this is a bad reason to believe in god because it does not change the reality that you are mortal. All it does is prevent you from making the most out of your life. This reason for believing in a god caused tens of millions of people in the Middle Age to put up with injustice and suffering because they foolishly believed they would be rewarded in an afterlife. It is one of the biggest scams that religious governments play on their populations.

If there really was an afterlife that magically righted all wrongs, then there would be no purpose in striving for social justice in this life. Conversely, if there is no afterlife, then striving for social justice in this life is paramount.

2. Children must be placated in matters of death.

Grandma dies. How do you minimize the trauma of the loss to a child? You lie to the child and say Grandma still lives in paradise and is still with us. This is the most sympathetic reason to lie about the existence of god and an afterlife, but it is still a lie.

It is highly debatable whether or not such a lie does more good or more harm. It minimizes the pain of loss, but at the cost of not dealing with that loss. One could argue that accepting the truth is better for the child since dealing with the deaths of love ones and one's own inevitable death is an important part of life. In any case, even if you accept that lying to a child for its own good is the best choice, there comes a time when the child grows up and must accept the truth that Grandma and Sparky aren't playing on a farm upstate or in the clouds.

3. Childhood brainwashing.

One of the main reasons people believe in one god or another is simply because they were brainwashed, intentionally or not, into believing in those superstitions throughout their childhood. Religious advocates target children for the exact same reason that drug pushers do: children are susceptible to influences whether harmful or helpful. Children are sponges willing to accept any view of reality given to them. They also have an instinctive trust of parents and adults related or friends of their parents. This instinctive trust kept children alive during the Stone Age, but it was the negative effect of perverting the worldview of children before they reach the age of reasoning.

Think about it. That trust which causes parents to accept the religion of their parents also causes them to accept becoming suicide bombers, to accept the racial bigotry of their parents, and to form their attitudes regarding women based on the culture in which they are raised. Thank whatever fictitious god you believe in that children start rebelling in the teenage years.

Since children blindly accept what they are told whether it be Jesus dies for your sins or you can serve god by flying planes into buildings, exposing children to religion is a form of child abuse for the exact same reason that giving drugs or hard liquor to children is abuse. All three are addictive and alter the developing brains of children who are simply not mature enough to handle such things.

4. Moral authority

There was a great BBC special in which Richard Dawkins and an Anglican priest discussed the existence of god. It was more of a discussion than a debate and was far more civilized than anything you'd see in America regarding religion. The Anglican priest was also more rational and intellectual than most religious advocates and tried to present arguments for faith based somewhat on reasoning.

The main thing I got out of watching that discussion is that the Anglican priest essentially had to believe in a god, and only one god, because he held the worldview that morality either must be absolute or it must be arbitrary and meaningless, and the only way for morality to be absolute is for there to be one and only one god who could say exactly what that morality was and no one could question it. I've been meaning to write a thread on the nature of morality and why this worldview is incorrect, but I'll give you the executive summary here.

First, it is a false dichotomy that morality must be absolute or arbitrary. The design of a bridge is not absolute; there are many ways to design bridges with various trade-offs, yet the underlying mathematics is absolute. Morality is a set of strategies and principles for solving the problems of social living. As there are many social species, environments, and situations, there are many approaches for structuring moral systems with various trade-offs, but there is an underlying mathematics, called Game Theory, that governs how moral systems work and how they fail. Morality is neither absolute nor arbitrary, and certainly is not meaningless.

Second, the existence of a god does not make morality absolute. There is no reason to believe that omnipotence or omniscience, both of which are impossible anyway, would cause a being to be good or make his opinions and values the moral authority. Interestingly, monotheism took off because if there is more than one god, then those gods could disagree with each other, and therefore you couldn't use them to impose a single, authoritarian dictate onto the people. No wonder power structures like governments and churches prefer monotheism to polytheism!

Finally, even if there were a god and it was the unquestioning moral authority, doesn't mean its morality is anything like yours. If the one and only god were to come out of the closet and say he wants everyone to rape their babies, would you accept raping your babies as morally good? Of course not. You need no god to distinguish right from wrong. People who attribute morality to the will of god are putting the cart before the horse. They define their god's morality as being their own and are simply using fear and attacks against "heretics" to justify forcing their will, often hypocritical, upon others.

Those are the main reasons I think people believe in gods, but I'm sure there are a few others. If I had time, I'd write more.

elliemae says

michaelsch says

--IT IS FORBIDDEN TO TALK ABOUT RELIGION IN SCHOOL!!!!

No, it is not. Children stretch the truth at times (what a surprise!).

Children don't often understand what rights people have. Adults don't either.

Schools can't force or favor religions. Students can do whatever they want including worshiping Satan on school grounds. However, students can't use the school to force their religion on others like preaching during a valedictorian speech.

Here's the rule of thumb: If a Satanist can't do it, a Christian can't either.

elliemae says

Some school systems teach both Scientific & Creationism theories of evolution.

That crap aside, it's politics that should be kept out of school. Creationism should be RESPECTFULLY left to the religious institutions to teach. Science should be taught in school, in a non politicized way. Both sides of the argument are over baring Zealots in their own right.

Kids should be able express their religious beliefs as they see fit in school. The school does not have any right to organize prayer or religious activities. That all being said however, students should be able to observe holidays with out it blowing up into a Us against Them fight. If there can't be a Christmas pageant or decorations, then that 20 foot menorah out front has to go, and the Happy Chanukah banner, and the happy Kwanza banners also shouldn't be there.

I remember I went to a "Holiday Assembly" at my daughter's school when they were in Elementary. Not a single sing of Christmas in sight, no tree, not banner, no garland nothing. The songs were just generic winter songs. But boldly decorated through out the auditorium were Jewish stars, Kwanza banners, a huge menorah on the property.

It is a blatant double standard, and has NOTHING, ZERO to do with separation of religion and state, and more to stick it to the "Party of NO" this was Bush's first term, when Liberals were a bunch of whinny cry baby jerk Assholes. Not that anything has changed.

Dan8267 says

michaelsch says

Religious atheists are more than welcome!

No such thing.

Surely you JEST!?

Atheist are more hard core preaching their religion of anti religion than any religion out there. So much so, that they are enlightened through their mission of enlightenment of others.

CaptainShuddup says

Atheist are more hard core preaching their religion of anti religion than any religion out there. So much so, that they are enlightened through their mission of enlightenment of others.

Atheists have been silent for the past six thousand years, only recently voicing their opposition to religion. The religious have been converting by the pulpit and the sword for all six thousand years. But god-forbid a few atheists have finally come on the record showing why it's silly to believe in your particular god or any god in general, and all of a sudden we're the loud-mouth radicals. Bullshit.

If anyone says anything that suggests there is no god, all the Christians act like atheists are taking over the country and silencing any opposition. It's a false accusation just like the so-called war on Christmas or the voter suppression efforts masquerading as essential prevention of the massive in-person voter fraud that doesn't exist. And the deception is transparent to anyone over the age of 8.

Pray to your fictitious god that atheists never become as "vocal" as Christians or Muslims have been during the past two millennia.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/CqgZnvfJ9Jg

LOL, what a crock of shit. It reminds me of a bumper sticker that I saw recently that read: God, please protect me from your followers!

By the way, when's the last time an atheist knocked on your door on a Saturday morning and tried to convince you to join their collective group of atheists??????????

upisdown says

By the way, when's the last time an atheist knocked on your door on a Saturday morning and tried to convince you to join their collective group of atheists??????????

There's a forum of them doing the same right here on Patrick.net, this is the digital age is it NOT?

I scrolled to the top and found a religion button/category, but not one on atheism.

You're taking quite a stretch to claim that there's a forum here for that, aren't you?

CaptainShuddup says

Atheist are more hard core preaching their religion of anti religion than any religion out there.

So, you agree that Romnesia's cult is not even a religion. He spent years working full time to convert French people to an expressly racist cult (they prohibited black people from senior positions), which btw would also require them to give up wine and coffee. Morons go door to door in pairs (so each can report back to HQ if the other says anything off message, like admitting doubt). Anyway, this is one of the reasons why it would make no sense for you to vote for him. It would make sense for you to vote Jill Stein MD (Green), since you approve of most of her policies and you previously voted for Ralph Nader. If Paul's writings in the New Testament somehow preclude you from voting for a woman, you could still write in Nader.

Dan, thank you, even though you would not miss much doing it in a less judgmental and a bit less heated fashion.

Looks like none of the rest even tried to answer my question.

Summarizing Dan's:

1. and 2. Because people are affraid of death; Here I would add another aspect: people do not want to agree to an absolute and final disappearance of things good and beautiful they love.

3. because of conformism;

4. because they feel they need an absolute source of the absolute morality.

Anything else?

How about: because they want a reward they think they deserve but can't get in earthly live? (A variation: because they want their enemies/neighbors punished)

And the classic anti-religious argument: because they are affraid of things they do not understand?

upisdown says

You're taking quite a stretch to claim that there's a forum here for that, aren't you?

I'll recant my statement when a pro religious thread is started here, and an the Atheist brigade doesn't chime in to shit on it.
99% of the threads here are started by Atheist Trolls looking for converts.

CaptainShuddup says

There's a forum of them doing the same right here on Patrick.net, this is the digital age is it NOT?

Wait, so even discussing religion is considered the same thing as waging crusades against heathens and burning heretics in your world?

CaptainShuddup says

I'll recant my statement when a pro religious thread is started here, and an the Atheist brigade doesn't chime in to shit on it.

I'm the most hard-core atheist here, and I certainly didn't shit on this thread. The thread author asked a question and I answered it sincerely and honestly.

CaptainShuddup says

99% of the threads here are started by Atheist Trolls looking for converts.

Well, in the nuclear age, those superstitions can be dangerous. Need I remind you that George Bush went on the record saying that god told him to invade Iraq. It's not an academic issue when a million people die as a result of a "religious" experience. And then there is the fact that Texas, a state that has few literates, determines which textbooks are used nationwide. I really don't want Texas fundamentalists choosing the science books for the next generation of engineers, doctors, and leaders.

There is a purpose to atheists making arguments against religion. It's not to be a dick or to "shit all over" someone's beliefs. The purpose is to challenge those beliefs and show the next generation why those beliefs are wrong and dangerous. My attitude towards religion is exactly the same as my attitude towards racism. I don't attack the racist, but I do attack racist ideas with better one. And I do that so the virus doesn't infect the next generation. Bad ideas must be opposed, not with violence, but with better ideas. This is the only way that society progresses.

michaelsch says

Dan, thank you, even though you would not miss much doing it in a less judgmental and a bit less heated fashion.

Heated? I thought I was talking dispassionately, borderlining on sounding like Ben Stein in Ferris Bueller's day off. There was absolutely no emotional content my my post.

Of course, if one is stating why a reason for doing something is not good, then one is judging by definition. But there is nothing wrong with judging when it is done impartially and honestly.

Waaaaa, same old crap from you religious extremists, it's just a different day. You types always revert back to the poor me and victim status when you're called out on your bullshit.

I'm not trying to convert anybody to anything and I haven't seen anybody else take that position or try to promote atheism either. Ironic that the self-proclaimed "christian" is lying, as usual, isn't it???????????

Spend all the time and money on all the religion that you want, because you religous nutjobs are a lot less dangerous to the rest of us normal people with something occupying your time and relieving you of your money.

michaelsch says

Summarizing Dan's:

#2 is more about comforting people, especially children, than fear.

#3 is about cultural acceptance and the unquestioning trust children have in their parents. If the parents raise their kids in an environment where certain races are considered inferior to others, it's likely the kids will hold this belief even if unconsciously even when they are adults. The same is true for many "fundamental" beliefs and behaviors. What children learn in early life, good or bad, sticks with them and shapes their personalities and world views.

michaelsch says

Anything else?

There's also been studies showing that religious tendencies are genetic. Certain genes predispose individuals to accepting supernatural rather than natural explanations for things. Given thousands of years of eradicating heretics, there has been ample artificial selection on our species to promote such genes. Medieval Europe is a prime example.

There was a PBS special many years back in which twins separated from birth and raised by different parents were studied and it was found that both twins in a set would either be very religious or not religious at all regardless of whether either was raised in a religious or secular family.

One particular example in that show was a pair of twins, one raised by Nazis and the other by Jews, an both were very religious (although different religions) and had largely the same interests.

Without getting into the whole nurture vs nature debate, it's clear that genetics does play a role in determining how religious/superstitious a person is, regardless of what religion, if any, that person belongs to.

michaelsch says

Looks like none of the rest even tried to answer my question.

While I would say Dan's answers were more comprehensive than mine, I did post the first answer. Also, nobody's answers were particularly heated except Captain Tonya Harding Shuddup, whose misinformed and misguided rants into self-righteous profanity can strain anyone's patience.

BTW, you mentioned this is a Sunday school class, so presumably these are children of religious parents. That probably explains the paranoia about discussing religion in school. Preachers stoke fear with Faux News, thus sewing mistrust of infidels, while reinforcing the desire to believe in an omnipotent and divine protector. The passive phrase "it is forbidden" does not specify by whom, so perhaps this is one of the polygamous 7th Day Adventist or Mormon groups and the parents don't want the kids blabbing for fear of drawing unwanted attention.

Dan8267 says

Heated? I thought I was talking dispassionately, ...

Well, no offence and thank you.

curious2 says

While I would say Dan's answers were more comprehensive than mine, I did post the first answer.

Maybe I just did not understand it. Frankly, what you wrote looks more like a description of some kind of mind controlling cult, maybe Mormonist to certain extend, I did not think it answered my question. At any rate, my goal is to make sure my pupils make their own informed personal decisions and that as much as I can influence it do not loose any aspect of their personality.

I also believe that this is in the best interests of the Church if it does not want to reduce itself to a cult. So, I did not think your reason was relevant, but now as I reread it I can see one thing there that may be very relevant, i.e. a wish to relieve oneself from any personal responsibility.

Why do you feel that they need to be taught about ANY religion???? If they need to be indoctrinated at such an early and impressionable age to keep the church/religion afloat and continuing, maybe some re-evaluation is in order.

What's wrong with waiting until they're adults so that they can make an informed and intelligent decision without bias and pressure from people that they admire and/or respect?

michaelsch says

Frankly, what you wrote looks more like a description of some kind of mind controlling cult...

I used the example of flying a plane into a building, but I won't dispute your characterization of Islam. Or Romney's cult, for that matter, which enables him to feel good about firing people and shipping their jobs to China so long as he tithes 10%.

People are afraid of dying, thanks to our adaptive reasoning abilities, they/we want to think they/we will live forever, well, duh, the forever never ends/comes so good luck with that.

I think the bible is still a great book, with some good common sense rules and reasons for why people should live life a certain way so thank you for teaching our young ones.

everything says

I think the bible is still a great book, with some good common sense rules and reasons for why people should live life a certain way.

If you read the whole thing, it is more like a fragmented partial transcript of arguments spanning a thousand years. The rules conflict, and most of them have no reasons. Even those with reasons tend to be circular or subjective, for example Paul explained that the reason a woman shouldn't be allowed to cut her hair short is because long hair is "a glory unto her."

everything says

I think the bible is still a great book, with some good common sense rules and reasons for why people should live life a certain way so thank you for teaching our young ones.

Most of the Bible is filled with silliness, or at least it is/was important information to that tribe. You can't find much good, except where you apply mental gymnastics, to the 613 laws in the Hebrew Scriptures.

It's not a code of ethics, per se.

Most people are looking for a way to make sense out of life (with a strong showing from people who want to make sense out of YOUR life. The seeker has found that the meaning of life is telling you how to live).

There are several schools of though where this doesn't have to be though. One could search for meaning and see it in the harmonious way the universe works together, in tension.

Of course, that could be called "science" too, but there is no rule saying that religion be dictated as a moral code, a set of rules, or a way to live forever.

everything says

I think the bible is still a great book, with some good common sense rules and reasons for why people should live life a certain way so thank you for teaching our young ones.

Why would you think that? Most of the morals presented in the Bible are ones we in the modern age would consider abominably evil. And the few morals that are not reprehensible are obvious like don't kill people and be nice.

There are no difficult moral issues or dilemmas addressed in the Bible. Nor are there any stories that enlighten us on how to apply moral principles in real world situations.

This thread seems to be getting a bit off topic. The question of the thread is why people believe in a god, not whether or not a particular religion is correct or morally enlightening. Perhaps someone should get this thread back on track by stating any other reasons people believe in a god.

Look at the believers and their charactoristics or common traits of that same group and it's very self-explanetory.

Anybody have an answer why the believers drop off when IQ levels go up?

upisdown says

Anybody have an answer why the believers drop off when IQ levels go up?

The inverse correlation between intelligence and religiosity points to another reason, i.e. if you feel a need to understand something about the world, but you aren't willing or able to figure it out, it's much easier just to say "God did it." Why are there mountains and valleys? Genesis tells us these are God's footprints, which is weird because Genesis also tells us man was created in God's image and the valley's don't look like the footprints of any man I've ever met. Nevermind, on to the next answer, why do earthquakes/lightning/other events happen? All same answer. It's much easier to believe everything results from one benevolent dictator than to figure out a seemingly endless series of interacting but partially independent forces and causal connections.

I feel sorry for the person who "disliked" the Mel Brooks video.

CaptainShuddup says

Both sides of the argument are over baring Zealots in their own right.

BOth sides of what argument ?

Science is science and has little or nothing to do with spiritual beliefs or religion.

marcus says

Science is science and has little or nothing to do with spiritual beliefs or religion.

Other than utterly disproving them all, which is why the religious are so often against science such as evolution and the Big Bang Theory.

Why do people want to believe in god ?

I used to agree with some of these reasons, especially in my adolescence.

michaelsch says

1. and 2. Because people are affraid of death; Here I would add another aspect: people do not want to agree to an absolute and final disappearance of things good and beautiful they love.

3. because of conformism;

4. because they feel they need an absolute source of the absolute morality.

Anything else?

How about: because they want a reward they think they deserve but can't get in earthly live? (A variation: because they want their enemies/neighbors punished)

And the classic anti-religious argument: because they are affraid of things they do not understand?

Now I don't see it that way at all.

It might be about programming or indoctrination in youth. But if not indoctrinated as children, many are going to be "seekers" later for reasons that are beyond explanation.

There are people who for reasons mostly other than those you list, simply believe. They just do.

IT may have to do with the way having conscious existence makes them feel. Or maybe it's just where they end up after a long period of coming to terms with the fact that they (their ego, their consciousness, their "intelligence") exist.

It isn't logical. But then it isn't easy to logically explain why you exist (not your body, but your mind - your self) people use terms such as "soul" because it honestly feels like their existence is more than simply that of an intelligent animal.

I'm not arguing that they are or they are not, more than an animal. But then again even the consciousness of an intelligent animal is an amazing thing.

This isn't the argument that it is beyond our comprehension or that believing in God is a short cut to understanding EVERYTHING.

It's about how existing feels to some people.

That's all.

marcus says

it honestly feels like their existence is more than simply that of an intelligent animal.

In a word, ego. Thanks Marcus for completing the circle of the thread by bringing it back to the first word of the first comment. You are the Alpha and Omega. I should have guessed, it was all about you and your feelings, all along. Yet apparently the word ego by itself, even with a paragraph of example, was not clear enough; perhaps "self-indulgence," putting one's own feelings ahead of objective reality, "I feel that 2+2=5 so that answer must be valid." As I recall, Marcus pretends to be a math teacher; evidently, it is a species of "new math" with a lot of validation and chanting (not to be confused with old fashioned prayer, Marcus hates it when people confuse his modern chants with prayers - and remember, it's all about Marcus, because he is the Alpha and Omega).

Naive gullibility & the inability to think critically?

Dan8267 says

There's also been studies showing that religious tendencies are genetic.

I studied the weather this morning.
I stuck my head outside and saw it was raining.
Therefore I concluded that the Planet earth is a rain soaked drenched planet, why it must be raining all over the world.