patrick.net

If you dont believe in a teleological explanation for life on Earth then all morality is subjective and comes from the society you either find yourself in or that your society was derived/evolved out of. Religious people and others who believe there is a purpose for life on earth and that there is something higher then man accept that there is a higher form of morality than that created by man. The Ten Commandments, at least some may fall into this a category of a objective morality. This is certainly not to say that that all religious "laws" fall into this category far from it. The contradictions within religion and religious people are legion and man's "touch" permeates all religious teachings.

My feeling is that homosexuality is something like a third sex, people are born that way cannot change and should be left alone to live as they see fit. They should be neither elevated or denigrated. It has nothing to do with living a moral or an immoral lifestyle as it is not a volitional choice, it is not conscious.

In case anyone thinks I'm bluffing...

Ok, maybe we'll get some experts to ring in now.

If this is immoral than I'm for more of it...

Quigley says

[Some Christians] see marriage as a religious thing that belongs to them. Which is why the issue is such a contentious one.

Some people drive like they own the road, but they don't. Their position isn't "moral," it's theft. Marriage goes back a lot further in human history than Christianity does, and besides there are Christian denominations that recognize same-sex marriage.

Dan8267 says

A mental disorder cannot me immoral, by definition.

Correct. The condition is not immoral, the activity that comes about as a result of the condition is. Just like the axe murderer gene. Lots of different "maniacs" exist. Maybe Sodomitomaniac has yet to be correctly diagnosed?

Bap33 says

Correct. The condition is not immoral, the activity that comes about as a result of the condition is. Just like the axe murderer gene. Lots of different "maniacs" exist. Maybe Sodomitomaniac has yet to be correctly diagnosed?

And what exactly about the activity is immoral. In other words, answer the freaking question, "Why the hell is gay sex immoral?"!

Bap33 says

yet to be correctly diagnosed?

Bap69, your comments (e.g. "Sodomite Nation," a phrase coined by Fred Phelps) don't answer the original question, but they do show something about where you devote your attention. You seem to overlook the actual story of Sodom, which was about hospitality and sexual assault, and had nothing to do with same-sex marriage for example. Since you copy Phelps' phrasing, I have to wonder, do you also picket military funerals with him?

never heard of the guy or him using my phrase. sorry. I think I got it from Rush, but not sure. I honor all of Americas warriors.

you are wrong about the story of Lot in Sodom.

Dan8267 says

Bap33 says

Correct. The condition is not immoral, the activity that comes about as a result of the condition is. Just like the axe murderer gene. Lots of different "maniacs" exist. Maybe Sodomitomaniac has yet to be correctly diagnosed?

And what exactly about the activity is immoral. In other words, answer the freaking question, "Why the hell is gay sex immoral?"!

male / male coupling is immoral for the same reason abortion, rape, and cutting in line is immoral. Right?

Bap33 says

Right?

Wrong. Most of your examples involve stealing from someone else in one form or another. Sort of like when a group of religious fanatics hijack an airplane or a government and use it as a weapon to hurt other people. Abortion is not necessarily an example at all. And you haven't identified anything at all wrong with, as you put it, "male / male coupling." The one thing you have illustrated correctly is why Republicans lost last week: they've fallen into the Rush Limbaugh / Fred Phelps cesspool, and they can't get out.

what's wrong with cutting in line the next time you go to the store or bank?

Bap33 says

what's wrong with cutting in line the next time you go to the store or bank?

You're taking something from the other people who have been waiting in the line. And you're still no closer to answering the original question.

curious2 says

You're taking something from the other people who have been waiting in the line. And you're still no closer to answering the original question.

What about bestiality? Is that immoral? You can't use the excuse that you are hurting something else. Maybe the animal is a consenting party. "Little Tommy was born attracted to the dog, he can't help it."

As far as comments made above about animals being homosexual, they also eat their own excrement. Should humans do that too?

Whittaker you aren't even trying to answer the topic question. You're merely trying to distract and possibly offend with off topic questions.

Bap33 says

I honor all of Americas warriors.

Including the gay ones?

Bap33 says

male / male coupling is immoral for the same reason abortion, rape, and cutting in line is immoral. Right?

That's not an argument. Simply naming things that have nothing to do with gay sex is not an argument that gay sex is immoral. I could just as easily say "heterosexual marriage is immoral for the same reason abortion, rape, and cutting in line is immoral" and it would make as much sense as what you just said.

Again, this shouldn't be a stumper question. If you have any legitimate reason to believe that gay sex is immoral, it should not be at all difficult for you to express that reason. If you cannot think of a reason why gay sex is immoral, then perhaps you should accept that it is only your own bigotry that causes you think that it is.

whittaker says

As far as comments made above about animals being homosexual, they also eat their own excrement. Should humans do that too?

If it were necessary for human babies to eat their mothers excrement in order to introduce bacteria essential for survival into their own digestive system as it is for elephants, then yes. If it were necessary for humans to digest food twice to extract the nutrition like it is for many herbivores, then yes.

However, your comments are simply a Straw Man argument. No one has claimed that an action is moral simply because other species in nature do it. The argument that the religious often make is that homosexuality is immoral because it is unnatural. Showing that homosexuality is common in nature disproves the false argument presented by the religious.

Once again, what few arguments for claiming that homosexual acts are immoral have been easily disproved by ample counter examples. I'm not even being intellectually challenged here. Through me some argument that at least requires a micron of thought to discredit.

curious2 says

Whittaker you aren't even trying to answer the topic question. You're merely trying to distract and possibly offend with off topic questions.

True. The subject of bestiality is a red herring. It has no more to do with gay sex than it does with straight married sex.

curious2 says

Whattaker you aren't even trying to answer the question. You're merely trying to distract and possibly offend with off topic questions.

Sorry I guess I hit a nerve. Just expounding on reasoning that I see in this thread. You can get yourself in real trouble when you reason everything away....

But to be fair I will answer your question, which I think was already answered, but it just isn't liked.

Definition of morality: conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.
Definition of moral: of, pertaining to, or concerned with the principles or rules of right conduct or the distinction between right and wrong; ethical: moral attitudes.

Based on the definition and the fact that only 5% of the population identifies themselve as a homosexual, I think it would be obvious why people view homosexuality as immoral. It is unnatural to most people and the thought of engaging in such acts themselves is repulsive to them.

Dan8267 says

Can't customize the invite an expert email, so going through forms.

I get it Bap, you are disliking everything I post in this thread because you have no other response. But come on, disliking the baby with Down Syndrome? That's low even by your standards.

Instead of just disliking all the posts, perhaps you should direct your energy into figuring out exactly what your beef with gay sex is. It clearly isn't that gay sex is immoral because you would have been able to answer the question of this thread if that were the case.

Dan8267 says

True. The subject of bestiality is a red herring. It has no more to do with gay sex than it does with straight married sex.

Disagree; I think it is very relevant. Sex is sex. If gay sex is moral like you say, why isn't sex with animals? We can use the silly reasoning I see throughout this thread. Hey animals hump different species, why can't humans?

whittaker says

Disagree; I think it is very relevant. Sex is sex. If gay sex is moral like you say, why isn't sex with animals? We can use the silly reasoning I see throughout this thread. Hey animals hump different species, why can't humans?

I think sex with anything is morally neutral as long as it is not forced upon any human.

whittaker says

We can use the silly reasoning I see throughout this thread. Hey animals

You seem to have missed Dan's point. The examples of other animals were a factual correction to refute the demonstrably incorrect argument, advanced mainly by the religious, about what they claim to be "unnatural." Their argument is misplaced because the facts are contrary to what they believe. I agree the religious arguments are silly, so why don't you supply a valid argument?

Moreover, a government should not enforce morality.

The only functions of a government ought to be:

1) Protect private properties
2) Enforce private contracts

That's it.

Peter P says

I think sex with anything is morally neutral as long as it is not forced upon any human.

Yup, I'm done here.

Wow, is this still going on? 9 States have legalized gay marriage: "Connecticut, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York, Vermont, and Washington—as well as the District of Columbia and two Native American tribes—have legalized same-sex marriage. In addition, Rhode Island recognizes same-sex marriages performed in other states, and California, which briefly granted same-sex marriages in 2008, now recognizes them on a conditional basis."

If you look at a map in Blue and Red, I don't think I need to explain.

The opponents are: "Opponents of same-sex marriage in the United States ground their arguments on parenting concerns, religious concerns, concerns that changes to the definition of marriage would lead to the inclusion of polygamy or incest, and other intellectual ideas expressed in natural law theory. The Southern Baptist Convention says that extending marriage rights to same-sex couples would undercut the conventional purpose of marriage. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, the Southern Baptist Convention, and National Organization for Marriage argue that children do best when raised by a mother and father, and that legalizing same-sex marriage is, therefore, contrary to the best interests of children.

The support is scientific: "The leading associations of psychological, psychiatric, medical, and social work professionals in the United States have said that claims that the legal recognition of marriage for same–sex couples undermines the institution of marriage and harms children is inconsistent with the scientific evidence which supports the conclusions: that homosexuality is a normal expression of human sexuality that is not chosen; that gay and lesbian people form stable, committed relationships essentially equivalent to heterosexual relationships; that same-sex parents are no less capable than opposite-sex parents to raise children; and that the children of same-sex parents are no less psychologically healthy and well-adjusted than children of opposite-sex parents"

This reminds me of the debt ceiling debacle a couple years ago.

whittaker says

Sex is sex. If gay sex is moral like you say, why isn't sex with animals?

It is just as equally valid to say:
Sex is sex. If straight sex is moral like you say, why isn't sex with animals?

It's a red herring because there is no more connection between
"Gay sex is not immoral, therefore bestiality is not immoral."
than there is between
"Straight sex is not immoral, therefore bestiality is not immoral."

Unless you are saying that gay men are subhuman and therefore beasts. You know, this exact same argument was made by the people who were against interracial sex.

If interracial sex isn't immoral, then what about bestiality? If a woman can marry a black man, what's next, marrying a farm animal?

To equate interracial marriage or sex with bestiality is offensive and retarded. To equate intrasexual marriage or sex with bestiality is offensive and retarded for exactly the same reasons.

But since you want to go there, let's go there. Why the hell is bestiality and polygamy immoral? Hey, you asked for it, now you got it.

whittaker says

Yup, I'm done here.

Not really. The original question remains unanswered.

Peter summed up what used to be conservative philosophy, before the Republican pact with Pat Robertson changed the definition of "conservative". (Now apparently it means massive deficits, war all over the world, and legislating Pat Robertson's definition of "morality" in people's homes.) But, you haven't yet answered the question.

The world is so hopelessly overpopulated that everyone should salute to couples, straight or gay, who choose not to have children.

B.A.C.A.H. says

No it's not. It's from the experience of enduring a digital prostate exam. Teaches us everything we need to know. Immoral or not, it's repugnant.

And I agree. I find gay butt sex completely repugnant, but that doesn't make it immoral. I find Indian food disguising and repugnant. That doesn't mean eating Indian food is immoral.

I find old people having sex repugnant and sickening. Imagine your grandma taking out her dentures and gumming grandpa's dick. Are you sickened yet? Sure, but can you really argue that grandma and grandpa are being immoral for getting it on after 50 years of marriage?

A visceral reaction of disgust is not a sign of immorality. We all have the same reaction to someone who appears to have a contagious disease. That doesn't make the person immoral.

Visceral reactions are more indicative of our own biases than any objective evaluation of morality.

B.A.C.A.H. says

prostate exam.

That's your third post on those exams. You do realize that for most people they're a waste of time, yes?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/07/health/07prostate.html?_r=0

So why do you keep going back for more? Of course, with Obamacare, you're required to buy coverage for them, and soon the exam may also be mandatory. Enjoy, it's the law!

Useless overpriced medical exams may be upsetting, but they have nothing to do with the morality of sex.

Don't worry, it's PG-13.

So now, we can legitimately bring up the question:

Is it immorial for a woman to fart during straight heterosexual vaginal intercourse?

This is just one morality question that can be devised from the video. :)

http://www.youtube.com/embed/U5en3xtUZPg

I think morality is subjective.

curious2 says

Bap33 says

I honor all of Americas warriors.

Including the gay ones?

being a warrior has nothing to do with male or female or coupling. Or, at least, it should not.

@Dan,
I have not "disliked" a single comment from you on this subject. I can't recall doing it anywhere, on anyone's, ever, but that is not impossible - so I will just assure you that I have not done so on here. Not my style homie.

Since you and I have a differing opinion on what is right/wrong, moral/immoral, just/unjust then it makes it kinda hard to explain where my view of life is valid over your opinions of life.

I have no idea what you see as immoral, other than Christianity and conservative social views. Since my anchor and understanding of morality are based (for the most part) on my understanding of Christianity and are expressed by my conservative social view, it puts us a odds from the start.

Can you tell me if it is immoral to cut in line? Please.

Peter P says

I think morality is subjective.

So are most conditions of man, like freedom for example. A slave in a dungen is not as free as a slave working in the King's garden, but the garden slave, and every soul other than the king, is not as free as the king. subjective.

Dan, do you have children? I seriously doubt it. The thought of exposing my own children to even the IDEA of homosexual sex is absolutely abhorrent to me. And that's what the gay movement is now about. It used to be about rights. Now it's about acceptance. Universal acceptance. California passed a law requiring gay sex to be taught about in schools. To kids. Someday my kids may bring home a permission slip to learn about gay sex in health class or social studies, and I won't be giving permission. I'd like them to keep their innocence of that particular type of (what to me and 95% of others) is a perversion as long as possible. I'll teach them what they need to know about straight sex, but that at an appropriate age and with the utmost care.
Of course, if the gay mafia has its way, kids will be forced to learn positive and wonderful things about their lifestyle and sexual practices. Neolithic thinkers like myself will have their kids forcibly removed and placed in (very) loving gay homes for reeducation.
Understand this: people like me will not stand idly by for this.
The gay community was decimated by AIDS once already. Do you really think that was an accident? Think about it.

Dan8267 says

Bap33 says

FortWayne says

That is my argument, disorders should be treated not celebrated.

AMEN!!!

A mental disorder cannot be immoral, by definition. Only the biggest bastard in the world would say that a child with Down Syndrome is being immoral. Does any asshole here want to claim that this girl is immoral for having Down Syndrome?

The way I see it, it's not the same thing Dan. I never said every disorder is immoral. I only said homosexuality is a disorder that I think should be treated because it sets a terrible example for children to imitate at a young age. And today they are exposed to way too much, children today are way too precocious.

With destruction of family values so goes the nation. Our values is our glue that binds us all.

You are from a younger generation you are growing up in a different society. But I tell you, todays parents have it a lot harder than we had. There are a lot more "freedoms and rights" children have to be protected from before they are old enough to comprehend it all.

Quigley says

Dan, do you have children?

Not that I know of. But that's irrelevant. I was a child. I remember what it was like being a child. And being a parent certainly does not make one an expert or authority on children. If it did, then all people would parent the same way and there would be no bad parents.

If anything, not having a child makes me objective and thus better at resolving the conflicts of interest between parents and children. A judge must be impartial.

Quigley says

The thought of exposing my own children to even the IDEA of homosexual sex is absolutely abhorrent to me.

And that is your bigotry and nothing more. There have been plenty of parents who found the idea of their daughter being with a black man to be equally abhorrent. That doesn't make interracial sex morally inferior to same-race sex. The exact same analysis applies when comparing straight sex to gay sex.

Just because something upsets you doesn't make it immoral regardless of how strongly you feel about it.

There are tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions, of Islamic men who are absolutely abhorred by the idea of women freely choosing their own mates and trying to attract those mates through flirtation. These men consider such actions the epidomy of immorality because they feel so strongly about it. However, that does not make female flirtation or sexual freedom immoral.

Your cultural and personal biases have nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with the difference between moral right and wrong.

Once again, I'll remind you of the example of an old married couple having sex. That's absolutely disgusting to me, but it doesn't make it immoral.

Gut reactions are a lousy judge of right and wrong. Gut reactions lead to mob vigilantism. Gut reactions are prejudice and unaccountable. Gut reactions are based on what your genes think is in your own selfish best interest, and those dumb-ass genes still think that it's the Stone Age, so they are often wrong about what's in your own selfish best interests.

Dan you really ought to invite some more experts and authors. President isn't going to answer this thread. They'll probably just ignore the email, like they do every email I send them. I haven't gotten a response to the email I sent to Barack for over a year now.

Quigley says

The thought of exposing my own children to even the IDEA of homosexual sex is absolutely abhorrent to me. And that's what the gay movement is now about.

The gay rights movement most certainly is not about exposing children to sexual images. However, a good parent would have the sex talk with their children so that the children can wisely navigate the treacherous waters to adulthood. And having that talk includes talking about homosexuality, polygamous relationships (which are the norm today), being attracted to two people at once, cheating, STDs, heartbreak, and all the other nasty things in romantic relationships that they will encounter.

Most parents are cowards who just don't have the balls to have the difficult conversations with their kids and will do anything to weasel out of it. To those parents I say listen to the JFK speech again. We do these things not because they are easy, but because they are hard. JFK got it right. It is exactly those things that are hard to do that build character.