patrick.net
An Antidote to Corporate Media
1,248,324 comments by 14,886 users - askmeaboutthesaltporkcure, Rin, Tenpoundbass online now
Does anyone have experience with building a custom home?
invite response
2012 Nov 17, 4:46pm 66,659 views 170 comments
« First « Previous Comments 19 - 58 of 170 Next » Last » Search these comments
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 3:18am
insulation.
lololol. 6" walls is CODE.
Where you are perhaps, not necessarily in more temperate climates.
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 3:19am
I DO have experience (re)building a custom home here in SJ.
I'll try to be as concise with my advice as I can:
Overall - spend money on the "bones" of your house, not the window dressing.
Think long term: For example having cared for my elderly, handicapped father and having children of my own I was particularly sensitive to making the house as handicap and child friendly as I could. Also think not just what you want but strong selling points to the person who you will someday sell the home to.
Shop around: Go to as many open houses as time allows. Get a feel for what the current trends are as well as what you like, what others like and what you think you can do without. Decide what is important to you - do you need a 5 gar garage? How about a workshop? Sunroom? Sauna?
Modeling: Buy a good software package and make as complete a 3D model as possible of what you think you want. If possible have a professional set you up including an accurate model of the lot with contour and scenery. Do lots of virtual walk throughs. A lot of things look fine on paper but turn out to be hard-to-correct mistakes in the end. You NEED to have a very good idea of what you want even before contacting an architect.
Codes: Get to know the local building codes. Builders make mistakes and ultimately you are on the hook for them. Our builder also told us several untruths which would have cost us dearly had I not been vigilant.
Lumber: Look into borate treated lumber.
http://www.archchemicals.com/Fed/WOLW/Products/Preservative/Sillbor/default.htm
http://www.greatsouthernwood.com/products/n-durz
I love this stuff! Lifetime protection against insects and dryrot. If you can't get the wood pretreated you can easily do it yourself with boracare.
http://nisuscorp.com/builders/products/bora-care
If you don't use it for the entire structure at least use it in strategic areas, e.g. outer walls and subfloors.
Our builder used some kind of resin fiberboard beam for the headers. It looked damn solid. I was assured it would never twist, sag, be eaten or rot away. I believe it. If I had the option I would have used such beams extensively throughout the entire house. If you are to use a post and beam foundation I'd recommend you explore using such beams there.
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 3:19am
Subfloor: Our house had a 2x6 TnG subfloor. It was SOLID, no give at all! I've lived in tract homes that had a lot of give in the floor. Bendy floors feel cheap. Spend money on a good solid subfloor.
Windows: Design in lots of them. I used fiberglass framed Milgard. I preferred fiberglass as it does not rot, transmit heat, and unlike vinyl is paintable.
Ceilings: 9' or greater throughout. Coffered or vaulted in large rooms.
Hallways: Make them wide enough for a wheelchair.
Doorways: Again wide enough for a wheelchair. Use solid core doors. The cost difference is not that much over hollow core doors. Pocket doors are great for doorways that will normally stay open but you will want to sometimes close for noise or privacy (e.g. kitchen or laundry room).
Flooring: I like carpet and tile. I hate laminate. Neutral on hardwood. Vinyl and linoleum can work in small rooms. If you go with carpet use carpet with a nylon or triexta fiber. Both are tough and will last a good long time. I'd give preference to triexta. It’s amazing stuff.
Little details:
* Suntunnels: In bathrooms, master closet, laundry room and hallways.
* Skylight and/or dormers in kitchen and entryway for lots of natural lighting
* Bullnose ALL wall corners for safety
* Insulate all interior walls to kill sound – its not expensive and adds value.
* Centrally locate water heater and HVAC in attic or basement to save interior space
* Run A/V wiring in large rooms and patio
* Optional – hardwire in Cat6 or better in all rooms. This might not be as necessary as wireless improves
That’s all I can think of for now.
Where did your parents build that 2x6 framing wasn't standard? I'm not sure you can meet the energy code here with anything less.
Kentucky, early 2000s. All of the new construction houses I have seen in KY were 2x4.
* Insulate all interior walls to kill sound – its not expensive and adds value.
Sound insulation has more to do with construction and not any batting you put between the walls (fiberglass insulation does very little for sound). Mass is helpful (5/8" drywall) and isolated sill plates and top plates with staggered studs is really where it's at. A laundry or utility closet adjacent to living space might warrant this extra expense, but probably not for other interior walls (my opinion). Cast iron drain pipes are another "hidden luxury" I would consider for sound reasons.
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 4:41am
* Insulate all interior walls to kill sound – its not expensive and adds value.
Sound insulation has more to do with construction and not any batting you put between the walls (fiberglass insulation does very little for sound).
Fiberglass DOES help as this video attests. I agree though there may be better options available:
http://www.youtube.com/embed/_AzxowD6if0
I also agree a good home design will also work wonders. Carpet helps kill sound as well. Solid core doors and yes, sound deadening drywall may also help:
http://www.homasote.com/products/440-Soundbarrier.aspx?gclid=CNLH4s-s2bMCFYw-Mgods1QAaw
Insulating the interior walls may add $500-$1000 to the project. On the down side insulation may make later projects more difficult (e.g. running wires, pipes etc).
Ask yourself is it worth the luxury of being able to watch TV at a reasonable volume without keeping the entire house awake? How about using the toilet without everyone knowing your business? Being able to get busy in the bedroom with the kids sleeping one wall over?
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 5:13am
The public is too stupid to do this.
99.999% of them yes, I'm giving the OP the benefit of the doubt :)
Unneccessary expense. Understand your needs, prioritize your wants, browse floor plans at a CAD house, buy the plans that most suit your needs and then red line them for construction.
Sorry, I was unclear. by modeling I mean modeled in software e.g. CAD house.
Not true. In the bid documents, the GC is responsible for meeting all code requirements. He' owns code compliance and he alone. If the local building dept doesn't sign off on a CO, guess what..... it's the GC's problem.
The key is if the inspector doesn't sign off - some cities are more flexible than others in interpreting code. I have personal experience with this. In any case I'm sure you will agree that the owner should keep a close eye on the construction to minimize such problems. If you catch problems early its not a big deal to fix. Catch them later and you will have a bigger fight.
Again.... IBC requirements exceed the personal opinion of the untrained person.
That they may - I did not spend time reviewing the code on this matter as the subfloor was not replaced in my project. All I know is that in the 1970s tract homes around here were build with crappy thin plywood subfloors and they flex when you walk on them. It sucks. What is the minimum the IBC allow for these days?
New Renter says
Windows: Design in lots of them. I used fiberglass framed Milgard. I preferred fiberglass as it does not rot, transmit heat, and unlike vinyl is paintable.
Watch your wallet on this stuff. This is a profit center.
I dunno, I didn't pay for it. The OP mentioned aluminum. That was not an option on my project. I don't think fiberglass was much more expensive than vinyl.
New Renter says
Ceilings: 9' or greater throughout. Coffered or vaulted in large rooms.
Soffit ceilings are nothing more than IFS detail. It's an upsell, unecessary and goes out of style. Stick with timeless IFS's.
All a matter of personal taste.
New Renter says
Doorways: Again wide enough for a wheelchair. Use solid core doors. The cost difference is not that much over hollow core doors.
Another profit center. Watch your wallet.
I think the cost difference was about $30/door. No extra labor charges.
I agree with Darrell that its easy to go overboard on extras. A fully itemized cost breakdown will help you decide if a particular feature is worth its cost to you.
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 5:15am
Where you are perhaps, not necessarily in more temperate climates.
You cannot use 2x4"'s in perimeter and shear walls on a two story structure, period.
Did the OP say the home was to be multi-story? I must have missed it.
@New Renter, a lot of that stuff doesn't make sense for modern design. Straight lines and lots of glass here. Bullnose corners would be weird.
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 5:37am
@New Renter, a lot of that stuff doesn't make sense for modern design. Straight lines and lots of glass here. Bullnose corners would be weird.
Maybe I'm not using the term right. By bullnosed I mean rounded wall corners:
http://www.customhometrends.com/rounded-drywall-corners/
I discovered these during a visit to a friend who had bought a home in a planned retirement community. Her house had been designed for elderly occupants so all walls had rounded corners. As I said I have kids and at the time an elderly father so these had strong safety appeal for me.
If you can you may wish to check out a model home in such a community. Some of my suggestions may sound odd but you may change your mind when you see them applied.
I live in a house with bullnose currently. It works well with traditional design (craftsman, Tudor, queen Anne, etc) but straight corners are more appropriate for what we are doing.we actually won't have many outside drywall corners though.
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 5:44am
Did the OP say the home was to be multi-story? I must have missed it.
Then why use them?
I didn't say one SHOULD use 2x4" only that 2x6" may not be required by local code for outer single story walls.
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 5:46am
I live in a house with bullnose currently. It works well with traditional design (craftsman, Tudor, queen Anne, etc) but straight corners are more appropriate for what we are doing.we actually won't have many outside drywall corners though.
My project was a rebuild of a 1970s CA ranch. It worked well there too. In your case of course you should do what you feel works best. Its your house after all!
C Boy
2012 Nov 18, 5:46am
Hire a retired code inspector or one who moonlights from a nearby town.
Official inspectors catch almost nothing, especially if they are buddies with the builder.
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 6:51am
Where you are perhaps, not necessarily in more temperate climates.
You conflated the dimension with climates not code.
Which would make sense if the additional thickness was necessary to combat more extreme climates than we have here in coastal CA.
I am not a builder, I have a limited knowledge of the code so yes, 2x6s may be a universal requirement for all outer wall construction. Perhaps Darrell you'd care to prove your point by directing our attention to the applicable portion of the California building code?
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 6:54am
Hire a retired code inspector or one who moonlights from a nearby town.
Official inspectors catch almost nothing, especially if they are buddies with the builder.
Agreed.
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 6:59am
IBC governs.
Fine - point to the applicable portion of whatever code applies
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 7:20am
Go look it up yourself bud.
http://shop.iccsafe.org/2012-international-building-code-1.html
Thanks but I have better plans for my money than that.
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 7:26am
You're lazy.
That is true. I am also cheap. The link you provided is to purchase copies of the code for a minimum of $122.
Go look it up yourself bud.
http://shop.iccsafe.org/2012-international-building-code-1.html
Where you are perhaps, not necessarily in more temperate climates.
You cannot use 2x4"'s in perimeter and shear walls on a two story structure, period.
Did the OP say the home was to be multi-story? I must have missed it.
It will be, but that's beside the point. I don't know of any reputable builders that frame with 2x4s around here. Between the added structural integrity and the additional insulation, the relatively small price difference is well worth it.
Oh, and the IBC isn't really adequate if you live in/near a big city. In seattle, something like a third of the IBC stuff is modified by addendums anyway. It's crazy.
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 7:34am
According to this 2x4s on exterior walls are not a violation of code:
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 7:34am
It will be, but that's beside the point. I don't know of any reputable builders that frame with 2x4s around here. Between the added structural integrity and the additional insulation, the relatively small price difference is well worth it.
Just to clarify - you are in Seattle?
The architect was OK with that? Doubtful at best, because it throws his design out of whack and affects the HVAC systems too.
I can assure you..... he wasn't. And Buster is floating a line of shit here.
Nope. The house ended up with 60 windows, most of them quite large. Of course I had to pay for them with an upcharge/change order. It took some design modifications yes. HVAC was not a problem as I had already upgraded to the maximum all wall, ceiling, floor insulation and it was a three zone system. Oh, and why are you convinced that I am floating a line of shit here? Anything can be changed & built. You need to get out of your dirt cave more often.
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 8:09am
According to this 2x4s on exterior walls are not a violation of code:
Not on 16" centers.
Fine
Nope. The house ended up with 60 windows, most of them quite large.
You're trying to get everybody that reads this, to believe that you increased the total number of windows by 20, and that it had 60 total, and that you did not changed the dimensions or proportions of the floor plan.
I'll say it again...........BULLSHIT. LICENSED architects have design parameters that they must, and do follow regardless of whatever ficticious HVAC modifications that you made, simply because it causes over-cycling of those units. That doesn't even take into consideration the comfort level, and overheating/cooling issues.
I don't know if you're really that stupid, or that you think that everybody else is, as you.
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 8:38am
Anything can be changed & built.
Of course it can. We bid on and win challenging projects all the time. We just have to find someone stupid enough to pay for all the bad ideas.
In your case, that stupid person was you.
Darrell is renowned for his excellent soft skills.
Nope. The house ended up with 60 windows, most of them quite large.
You're trying to get everybody that reads this, to believe that you increased the total number of windows by 20, and that it had 60 total, and that you did not changed the dimensions or proportions of the floor plan.
I'll say it again...........BULLSHIT. LICENSED architects have design parameters that they must, and do follow regardless of whatever ficticious HVAC modifications that you made, simply because it causes over-cycling of those units. That doesn't even take into consideration the comfort level, and overheating/cooling issues.
I don't know if you're really that stupid, or that you think that everybody else is, as you.
I dunno, it sounds plausible based on what I've seen in modern designs.
That he didn't have to upgrade HVAC is a bit odd, but maybe he was buying triple glazed things that were as well insulated as walls or something.
I imagine this also depends greatly on climate. In central or northern CA where nobody insulates anything anyway because it's between 50 and 80 year round, it probably doesn't matter. In minnesota I'm sure it affects things greatly.
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 8:56am
Darrell is renowned for his excellent soft skills.
Look bud..... I'm not here to be your friend. If you want friends, head on over to facebook.
Sooo I guess I won't be getting a Patnet friend request from you then...
Nonsense,
Wrong again. 2x4 are prohibited for multistory structures.
And PS...... slapping together houses is barely considered "construction". Get out sometime and take a look around you.
NJ ICC code says you can use 2x4 at 24" for 1 story and 16" for 2 stories with 10' or under walls in table R602.3(5) You must use 2x6 on 3 story houses. Where is your AZ ICC code link that disagrees with this or a revision to NJ code I don't know about?
www2.iccsafe.org/states/newjersey/NJ.../NJ_Res_Chapter6.pdf
and PS. I have no idea what the fuck you are talking about get out and take a look at what?
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 9:30am
Adding 20 windows in a large modern style home is quite a bit, but not unreasonable. I imagine it added a good $25-50k to the price tag though. Our builder suggested budgeting $1200-1500 per window since we want high grade aluminum instead of vinyl .
Any particular reason for going with aluminum?
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 9:34am
Nonsense,
Wrong again. 2x4 are prohibited for multistory structures.
And PS...... slapping together houses is barely considered "construction". Get out sometime and take a look around you.
@ Kevin: ARE you considering a multi-story house? If not this tangent is meaningless.
"6months overschedule"??? Based on what contract duration? As a result of "50% cost 'overruns'"????? Were additional contract days granted as a result of these "overruns" i.e, change orders?
If not, why didn't the owner invoke liquidated damages? I think someone is talking out their ass here and it's not me.
Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just relaying what I have been told. For the record I trust my father's word over yours. He says "more than 6 months behind schedule" and I think 50% is in the ballpark for the cost overrun. Maybe he fucked up, but that's what happened.
Adding 20 windows in a large modern style home is quite a bit, but not unreasonable. I imagine it added a good $25-50k to the price tag though. Our builder suggested budgeting $1200-1500 per window since we want high grade aluminum instead of vinyl .
Any particular reason for going with aluminum?
Like I said, we're going with a modern design. Fiberglass looks like plastic. Clear anodized aluminum is beautiful.
The downside is meeting the energy codes. Milgard is the only vendor I know of that qualifies.
Nonsense,
Wrong again. 2x4 are prohibited for multistory structures.
And PS...... slapping together houses is barely considered "construction". Get out sometime and take a look around you.
@ Kevin: ARE you considering a multi-story house? If not this tangent is meaningless.
It may be meaningless, but I would never consider building a house with 2x4s regardless of size. The cost difference is inconsequential (it might actually be cheaper in a single story, since you could go 24" OC instead of 16"). In cold weather the 2x6 will pay for themselves in two winters.
Our actual building plans are for a two-story home with a walkout basement (so essentially three stories on one end).
Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just relaying what I have been told. For the record I trust my father's word over yours. He says "more than 6 months behind schedule" and I think 50% is in the ballpark for the cost overrun. Maybe he fucked up, but that's what happened.
I don't know that he fucked up, but it sounds like he was dealing with a contractor that either:
a.) Ripped him off big time
or
b.) Low balled the estimate to get the contract.
b is *extremely* common amongst shady contractors. If you get quoted anything less than $150/sf average, double and triple check references.
Another common thing is providing an estimate for construction costs only, and not being upfront about the GC's fee, site prep, utilities, etc.
swebb says
The architect fees made up a significant portion of the overall cost.
Nonsense. 10% at the very max. and that is high
If you notice in my original message I estimated (with a ? mark, If I recall) 10%. As built, all in it was about 6.5% of the total. As planned without the land, it was closer to 12%.
In any event I consider that a significant cost, especially if it can be essentially eliminated by going with a stock floorplan.
Site specific problems can be a major pain.
Then don't build on it. Get another lot. Lots are cheap.
They bought the last riverfront lot available in the area they wanted to build. The lot was not cheap and buying another wasn't an option.
Custom houses mean custom problems.
Complete BULLSHIT.
Folks, when you hear "custom" as it relates to housing, know that you're getting bamboozled. It's just another way to inflate the price per square foot. There is no "custom" anything. Everyone builds to IBC. EVERYONE.
I did give an example of an unanticipated issue that was due to the custom design. If it had been a spec plan the porch-over-living-space problem would have been dealt with and "baked in" to the price. As it happened for them, they had to "solve" the problem when it came time to build. Maybe the architect fucked up. Maybe the builder took advantage of the situation. I don't know. All I know is that they had to spend a significant chunk of unplanned $, and I think it's fairly easy to attribute it to the custom nature of the house. Staircase, being custom, was also quite a bit more expensive than what you would get from a typical build. The south facing sunroom also added cost. I stand by my statement.
lololol. 6" walls is CODE.
Not in Kentucky. To humor you, I called my brother and asked him. He's in new construction on a daily basis. What he said to me was that "every once in a while you will see 2x6 construction"...the rule is 2x4.
you get quoted anything less than $150/sf average, double and triple check references.
Don't be silly. We bid, win and build wood framed structures for a very small fraction of that amount.
In phoenix, where nobody wants to live and you don't have any weather.
are river front lots everywhere. There is always a substitute.
Oh, my bad.
And I stand by my experience that "custom" is simply another means to upcharge in the contract or add as a change order. Both are massively inflated. I know because I prepare CO's daily.
When I say custom, I guess I mean not only that you get to specify the floorplan and such, but that you will be doing things that are non-standard, more costly, etc. If you build dozens of the same home, you have economies of scale working for you, you learn any tricks or difficulties with the build, and you amortize those costs over many houses. When you do a one-off house, you don't have that advantage. On top of that you are probably building something that is more expensive anyway (100 windows, for example). I think the phrase "custom house" has meaning beyond just a way to charge more for the same thing. Take, for example, the cost of the architect. That is a cost that a custom home has that your step-and-repeat homes don't.
And we're in the heavy construction biz. And let me assure you, if you bought a new house with 4" walls, you got ripped.
Maybe so, but that's what you buy in Kentucky. My original point wasn't whether or not the additional cost of a 2x6 was worth it...I was just trying to help the original poster with his question. In my experience deviating from the local norm can be costly beyond the difference between a 2x4 and a 2x6. Maybe the whole 2x6 thing is complete BS and was used as an excuse to charge even more...but the fact is that they deviated from the norm, and it cost them.
Usually when someone says "custom house", they really just mean "you get to pick from one of three floor plans and one of five counter tops".
Unless an architect draws up a unique plan tailored for your lot, nothing is custom.
You're trying to get everybody that reads this, to believe that you increased the total number of windows by 20, and that it had 60 total, and that you did not changed the dimensions or proportions of the floor plan.
Since the architect cashed my checks, perhaps you may want to ask him if I am full of bullshit.
New Renter
2012 Nov 18, 12:11pm
swebb says
Maybe so, but that's what you buy in Kentucky. My original point wasn't whether or not the additional cost of a 2x6 was worth it...I was just trying to help the original poster with his question. In my experience deviating from the local norm can be costly beyond the difference between a 2x4 and a 2x6. Maybe the whole 2x6 thing is complete BS and was used as an excuse to charge even more...but the fact is that they deviated from the norm, and it cost them.
No. It's what you choose to buy. People don't know any better and they hand over all power to guys like me, lying realtors, mortgage pimps and "inspectors". 2x6 perimeters might add 0.5% to my framing number. The labor is the SAME.
@ Darrell
Clearly as a builder you have a lot of information that is useful to Kevin. So can you please tell us how would you as a builder advise Kevin to handle things to minimize costs yet achieve most of his goals?
If custom plans are too expensive where can Kevin find thousands of standardized floor plans to choose his dream house from?
If he needs to modify the plans to suit his goals would a draftsman be a good way to go to save money or should he go to an architect? What kind of modifications to the plans might he be able to do himself?
If he wants to use a CAD model what software package would you recommend?
How should he go about finding the best GC for the job? What questions should he be asking of the GC and references?
What does he need to know going into the negotiations?
How can he minimize change orders?
What materials from what suppliers should he specify for the build? For example who makes the best aluminum windows? Which manufacturers suck or are likely to go bankrupt and nullify any warranty?
What are the common tricks a GCs may try use to try to wring more dough out of Kevin and how can Kevin combat them?
What tools should Kevin bring to the build to check the quality of work with? What should he look for?
What should Kevin buy out of pocket and what can he trust the GC to source? For example should he buy a wall oven himself? How about the water heater?
As a builder what do customers demand that you feel is a waste of money and what do they NOT ask for that in your opinion they should?
« First « Previous Comments 19 - 58 of 170 Next » Last » Search these comments
I've decided that since I have to live out in the 'burbs anyway, I might as well live in the perfect house. 9 out of 10 builders around here just slap together the same old generic qasi-craftsman style homes with awful layouts and pointless features like tiny unusable porches and formal living rooms.
We have a crap ton of money and I'm overpaid.
We're looking to buy a few acres of land and then spend ~$800k to build the thing (architecture, land prep, construction, etc.)
Does anyone have experience with having a custom home built (particularly modern design; no shingles or crown molding here)? Was it worth it compared to what you could have bought for the same amount of money? How was the financing?