patrick.net

Also - I noticed that lot's more of Northern CA is heavily planted with corn. Not rows of corn. Fields of corn packed so tightly together noone could get in - so I'm guessing this is corn for ethanol.

Zlxr says

But if I'm going to grow trees then I need something long term - and yeah I might get too old to prune the high up branches and pick all the fruit so I might want to pay for a little help.

High density orchards can help both the acreage and the too-tall-to-harvest problems. Put in 3-4 dwarf fruit trees per 18" hole and keep them pruned to 6' or below. You can also put espaliered fruit trees along your property fences to maximize space efficiency:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espalier

You won't be self-sufficient by any means but even a few well thought out fruit trees with a small vegetable garden can yield plenty of farm fresh fruits and vegetables. Depending on your local ordinances a coupe of chickens can convert the bugs into eggs for you as well.

Here's the thing New Renter.

I don't own any land right now.
So your ideas are great but not possible at present.

What I'd like to promote, though, is the idea that we need healthier fruit and veggies and more variety. And that GMO should be to make things better NOT just easier for the grower.

While a large scale farmer has to deal with say getting all his tomatoes to harvest on the same week because he only has access to pickers and the cannery on a certain week in July or August ---- I as a private grower would rather not have all my tomatoes get ripe all at once.

I either need to learn more about successive planting - or I need a tomato plant that just keeps on producing. But most of all I want tasty healthy tomatoes.

So - let's say there is a farmer out there that would be willing to work with me and other serious people such as master gardeners and 4H club etc. etc.

OK - so we tackle serious issues such as how to recreate topsoil - or enrich the current soil we have. This may involve digging ditches and collecting clean kitchen scraps and raising cover crops for green manure. It might mean using animal poop - but finding ways to get the salts and heavy metals out. I heard that another way to help is to use charcoal - you don't burn the wood all the way to ash because charcoal helps to keep nutrients in the soil even if it rains alot.

All this might be way to labor intensive for a farmer - especially in the beginning. But let's say that there are people who are willing to donate some time and money and effort and besides there are some lazy kids out there who could learn to dig a ditch or 2. So let's say this farmer is willing to allow some of his land (maybe only 10 acres at a time - to see if this can be done. Then let's say we want to grow apples and cherries and plums and oranges and grapes etc. Do we mix them altogether - or does this farmer have better knowledge that certain things grow better together than others. Also we need bees. So can we mix rosemary and certain other bee attracting plants so we have little gardens within gardens to keep bees around for pollinating and keep the chemicals away because I think it's the chemicals that are causing at least some of the problem with the bees.

Farmers can't do large scale mixed use farms as well so we need to figure out how to help out (because we want to eat and be healthy - and not pay our health insurance companies so much money).

And - yes - we could grow espaliered trees and some raised planter beds so us older people can reach and still help. And we raise some taller trees and other people who can still climb ladders help out.

I'm not rich - but I am willing to share. I can buy seeds and trees and I can help sprout and transplant seedlings. And I can help with gardening too. But there also must be people out there who can't buy seeds - but have time and would be willing to help me so they can have food to eat.

And maybe this farmer has also experienced problems with farm chemicals such as his child getting leukemia or something. So maybe he'd like to try other things - but just can't afford to make huge and sudden changes all at once.

So let's say he only makes $200 per year an acre from this crop he is raising. So first thing we have to do is make sure he gets his $200. Is it worth it to him to let us use one or more of his acres for $200 each - plus he provides the water???? And can we pay someone $200 for the use of an acre and make it profitable for ourselves?

Also - we ALL need to consider that there are an awful lot of people on Food Stamps - and part of this is because there just plain old isn't a good job for everyone. If they ever get cut off and we have all those hungry people looking for food - we ALL have a problem. There is also a shortage of organic food.

This isn't just an issue for famers, or food producers or us. It's everyone's problem. No farmer wants to grow food if hoards of people were to raid his property and trample his crops. No food producer is going to make money if nobody has any money to buy food with and us little guys just plain suffer if there is no food. Plus it does cost us all for the Food Stamps to begin with.

I know I don't know the answers. But I do know that I never run out of ideas. They aren't always good ideas or even great ideas but maybe someone else can come along and use my ideas to create a better one.

Now if Monsant owns the farms they probably don't give a shit about what I think. But if a small farmer wants to keep his farm and is currently struggling --- isn't there a way that some of us can join in and help him out and help ourselves at the same time?

Zlxr says

Now if Monsant owns the farms they probably don't give a shit about what I think. But if a small farmer wants to keep his farm and is currently struggling --- isn't there a way that some of us can join in and help him out and help ourselves at the same time?

I don't know about Martinez but in Cupertino there is at least one place that sounds like what you are talking about:

http://hollyhillhummingbird.com/

Zlxr says

I don't own any land right now.

So your ideas are great but not possible at present.

I would suggest you start with a community garden plot. My daughter has had one for years (on the East coast) and it is a nice and sometimes only way for the urban gardener to garden. Sometimes the demand for plots outstrips the supply but definitely something to check out. The conditions are far from ideal but none the less a small plot can yield big returns.

I haven't farmed in many years ( I still have farmland in the mid west) but I have always gardened, currently living by myself I end up giving much of what I grow away. It is a real joy to give away produce fresh picked grown without chemicals, a joy to eat also.

rdm says

Zlxr says

I don't own any land right now.

So your ideas are great but not possible at present.

I would suggest you start with a community garden plot. My daughter has had one for years (on the East coast) and it is a nice and sometimes only way for the urban gardener to garden. Sometimes the demand for plots outstrips the supply but definitely something to check out. The conditions are far from ideal but none the less a small plot can yield big returns.

I haven't farmed in many years ( I still have farmland in the mid west) but I have always gardened, currently living by myself I end up giving much of what I grow away. It is a real joy to give away produce fresh picked grown without chemicals, a joy to eat also.

Excellent suggestion.

Another possibility might be to put out a running ad in Craigslist offering to harvest tree fruit for no money, just a percent of the harvest. I'm sure there are lots of homeowners with trees that produce far more than they themselves can handle. In my own neighborhood I see many neglected fruit trees just begging for attention.

Senior centers may also be a good source for homeowners who cannot take care of their own yard.

Warning - if you do this you will end up with LOTS of persimmons, oranges, lemons and grapefruit. You may be able to mitigate that by specifying what kind of fruit you are looking for.

Another possibility would be to contact a local winery. Most California wineries I have visited (and I've been to MANY) have an organic garden area. Martinez has two wineries that I have found with vineyards on site:

vianovineyards.com‎
climbingmonkeys.com‎

Contact the owners and explain to them what you are interested in. Who knows you might pick up an extra weekend job.

Something else to try, mushrooms. Its low on labor and takes very little space:

http://www.gmushrooms.com/POTS.HTM

You indicated a desire to grow tomatoes, Have you thought about growing them hydroponically indoors? There is an entire industry catering to the indoor hydroponic grower albeit for a different crop...

Thank you New Renter and rdm.

I still like to garden and find it very relaxing and I've always given stuff away. I have never mastered the art of planting in succession so I end up with bags of zucchini and tomatoes and cukes whenever I garden. I'm too old to think about getting rich - so it's more about quality of life. You know - it's more important to be able to still put on your own shoes and feed yourself than it is to go out and get richer than anyone else just because you can.

Getting old can be kind of humbling - so my goal is to live as well and self sufficiently as I can and as happily too. And then die quickly when my time comes.

At the very least I am going to visit the garden in Cupertino and make a donation. I have a fruiting mulberry that I'd like to donate but I'd still like to visit the tree. It has berries that are about 2 inches long that taste kind of like a cross between a cherry and a blackberry. I have no idea if you can even buy one. I just had one at my old house and we rooted a couple of branches so I'm growing a tree from a cutting. We got it to grow roots before we cut it off the tree.

My aversions to chemicals have to do with having been quite ill for awhile. I find that protecting my liver and my gut seems to have a lot to do whith my level of health. And I have found that for me alternative healthcare works better than medicine that includes drugs. But ultimately - good food is the best medicine. And I just want to be sure that my food is safe and healthier.

I am currently growing some cukes, tomatoes, parsley, bell peppers and I rooted a celery from the store that just went to seed. But I'm growing them in planters that have a water reservoir in the bottom.

The only thing I'm not sure about hydroponic - is getting the flavor.

I harvested some from my plants but I think I'll be looking for ways to improve my potting soil. So I'll keep working on that aspect for right now. My cucumbers really went to town but weren't the best quality and I'm still harvesting bell peppers which are quite tasty. My tomatoes were not quite what I wanted and were a bit sparse - but it could be a sun issue in that I don't get all day sun and sometimes it's too hot. Growing plants in potting soil and growing plants in the ground is not the same. I still think that the microorganisms are necessary - but I'm not sure of everything else. I know that sprinkling on a bit of epsom salts works to make them grow better as does making tea out of my kitchen scraps. But I want to make sure I have all the other nutrients as well.

You're right about there being lots of trees where the fruit just rots on the ground. But not all the trees have great fruit. Citus fruit flavor depends alot on what you fertilize the tree with. They can manage to be sour and pithy if they aren't cared for properly. And you can't let them go for long periods without water and then get this great idea to water them alot. You'll split all the fruit.

Maybe there is another elderly person who would kind of rent/share their yard with me. So I could fertilize their trees and get a better harvest. I might feel better about putting up a notice at the senior center than on Craigslist though. Thanks for the idea.

New Renter says

Another possibility might be to put out a running ad in Craigslist offering to harvest tree fruit for no money, just a percent of the harvest. I'm sure there are lots of homeowners with trees that produce far more than they themselves can handle. In my own neighborhood I see many neglected fruit trees just begging for attention.

Warning - if you do this you will end up with LOTS of persimmons, oranges, lemons and grapefruit.

I never ate a persimmon I liked, but people tell me they ferment into a very nice beverage...

Zlxr says

At the very least I am going to visit the garden in Cupertino and make a donation. I have a fruiting mulberry that I'd like to donate but I'd still like to visit the tree. It has berries that are about 2 inches long that taste kind of like a cross between a cherry and a blackberry. I have no idea if you can even buy one. I just had one at my old house and we rooted a couple of branches so I'm growing a tree from a cutting. We got it to grow roots before we cut it off the tree.

Glad to help!

If you get down to the south bay you might also be interested in this place:

http://www.pruschfarmpark.org/

Its one of my favorite family friendly places to go. Lots of community farming activities including a high density apple/pear/quince orchard and a rare fruit orchard. I can't be certain but I may have seen a fruiting mulberry in the latter. I know they have the only pistachio tree I've ever seen.

Its also free.

There is also another farm park in the works, the Martial Cottle Park in the Blossom Valley area of San Jose:

Martial Cottle Park is a 287.54 acre property located in a residential and commercial neighborhood of South San Jose. The property is bounded by Branham Lane, Snell Avenue, and Chynoweth Avenue. It was an agricultural farm through four generations.

For further information on this exciting project and the planning process, including how to get involved, see the Santa Clara County Parks Web page.

people tell me they ferment into a very nice beverage...

That was me and yes, they do :)
(just make sure they're fully ripe first)

Yes, it was you. I do have to try that sometime. With champaign yeast, or some other kind?

Patrick - there is a persimmon that stays hard like an apple - they taste good.

But I think the one you would be interested in is only ripe when it is almost like jelly. Otherwise - it will pucker you up. So if you eat one and you get the puckery feeling - it is NOT ripe.

Mulberries can be really awful as well. But the tree I have has big juicy berries. The only problem is if you wait until they are ripe - they are not easy to pick and should probably go straight into your mouth. Or you can put them into a peach pie or have with ice cream or on pancakes.

You always look like you have been in a knife fight when you pick these.

I really like the turn this thread has taken!

@Zlxr: I didn't realize you're as old as you say you are. Now things are making sense. My father's two brothers have been genealogy fanatics for decades and yet they won't let me buy a cheap genome kit (~$100) which they could use anonymously to show what parts of the world their genes came from. The idea just freaks them out!

Anyhow, anyone like you who's into gardening the way you are is okay in my book.

Yes, it was you. I do have to try that sometime. With champaign yeast, or some other kind?

Yes, I used champagne yeast for my batch. The recipe can be found here:
http://winemaking.jackkeller.net/reques19.asp

Lots of other fruit wine recipes on this site as well. Fruit wine is a GREAT answer to the eternal quandary of "what the @$%$ are we going to do with all this fruit!"

Zlxr says

Patrick - there is a persimmon that stays hard like an apple - they taste good.
But I think the one you would be interested in is only ripe when it is almost like jelly. Otherwise - it will pucker you up. So if you eat one and you get the puckery feeling - it is NOT ripe.

The apple like one would be a Fuyu persimmon. The wine is made with the "jelly" Hachiya persimmon.

Hachiya persimmons freeze well and will ripen as they thaw.

just_passing_through says

Anyhow, anyone like you who's into gardening the way you are is okay in my book.

Ditto!

Oh, yes, you are a bit younger than they are. (68, 70, 73)

I hadn't heard of frequency medicine, interesting...

Lots of alternative possibilities out there for sure. All I'd say is whatever you do, ensure you communicate with a good doc too - don't be Steve Jobs. His version of pancreatic cancer had a 95% cure rate and he'd likely be around today if he didn't avoid western medicine for so long.

Not that cancer is your issue, just saying.

Zlxr says

Especially in regards to pleomorphism wherein Rife said that a bacteria could morph into a virus or a fungus depending on the environment. Too bad you can't still use his microscope and stain a virus with ultra violet light and observe it while it's still alive. But - if it's true that those teeny microorganisms can morph - then science is going to have to rethink how alot of things happen.

I had to look up what you are talking about here - I think you mean L form bacteria which lack a cell wall. From what I've read these bacteria are capable of infecting other cells by becoming ingested (e.g. by a macrophage). I don't think you can classify this as"morphing" into a virus.

Letter I received from Bill Neslon on the FDA

Dear xxx,

Thank you for contacting me regarding the ongoing Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approval process for genetically engineered salmon. I voted for Senator Murkowski's amendment on May 24 that would have prohibited the FDA from approving genetically engineered fish unless the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration also approved.

In September 2010, a group of senators sent a letter to President Obama asking him to halt all the proceedings at the FDA on this issue. Among the concerns they cited were the possible public health consequences of marketing this fish for human consumption, the lack of transparency in the FDA's review process, and the environmental impact of large-scale farming of genetically engineered fish. On January 31 of this year, Senator Begich introduced S. 230, which would ban genetically engineered salmon altogether.

I understand these concerns and I am monitoring this situation closely. Although genetic engineering has the potential to enable us to produce more food at a lower cost, policy makers must fully understand and inform the public on the risks of these foods before allowing them into the marketplace. Regardless of whether this fish ever ends up on dinner tables in America, consumers have a right to know what they are eating and that it is safe. I will keep your views in mind should any legislation on this issue come before the Senate.

I appreciate your communication on this important issue. Please do not hesitate to contact me in the future.

Sincerely,
Bill Nelson

Obligatory Simpson's reference:

Wouldn't it be easier and cheaper just to breed the salmon in tanks and then release them into the "wild" to grow up? And do the same with other fish? I mean won't the salmon think of wherever you released them from as their home to return to for breeding, making them easy enough to catch later?

Another genetic experiment on the US population.

And as usual 20 to 30 years from now when all of us result in some sort of health problem from eating these GMO's they'll finally tell us it was bad. But for those 20 to 30 years we'll be making fantastic money for GMO industry which doesn't even want their genetically modified garbage labeled.

Write a letter to your senator asking them to deal with this, at least have them add GMO labels to these mutants.

FortWayne says

Write a letter to your senator asking them to deal with this, at least have them add GMO labels to these mutants.

Can you read, I did.

121212 says

FortWayne says

Write a letter to your senator asking them to deal with this, at least have them add GMO labels to these mutants.

Can you read, I did.

I did.

zzyzzx says

Wouldn't it be easier and cheaper just to breed the salmon in tanks and then release them into the "wild" to grow up? And do the same with other fish? I mean won't the salmon think of wherever you released them from as their home to return to for breeding, making them easy enough to catch later?

Salmon running up the river to breed aren't good for eating. They stop feeding and get all mushy. If you get them right at the mouth they are ok, but the ones from the open ocean are better.

I know they do the pen raise and release thing with steelhead on the north west coast and probably salmon somewhere, but it's more of a conservation thing than agriculture. Steelhead don't die after breeding so they hold up better than salmon.

donjumpsuit says

We should be supporting sustainable agriculture, and farming of both livestock and fish. GMO's are a big part of sustainability and an agronomic society were we don't depend on nature to provide 100% of our complex needs, but manipulate nature to ensure the needs of the entire population without stripping the land we live on bare.

I don't disagree with you in principle, but the farming of salmon and other carnivorous fish is not sustainable. Yes, people don't want to eat the herring that is fed on the farm, but the wild populations of fish sure do! The harvest of prey fish to support farming is partially responsible for the depletion of wild stocks.

People should stick to farming herbivorous species like tilapia or basa. They can be fed vegetable meal grown in a sustainable manner. Oysters, scallops, and other filter feeding shellfish are good too. It's cheaper, more efficient, and more environmentally friendly.

If we stop overfishing the oceans wild populations of salmon, tuna etc. will recover and we can still enjoy them, just not all the time. I love wild salmon but have no problem limiting it to a once a month thing.

Tilapia IS tasty.

How about feeding tilapia to the salmon?

New Renter says

How about feeding tilapia to the salmon?

No it's corn as usual!

If you don't eat yer meat, you can't have any pudding! How can you have any pudding if you don't eat yer meat?!

New Renter says

How about feeding tilapia to the salmon?

I drove around the Salton Sea last summer. It looked just as it does in these pictures:

http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=40&threadid=33067&bookmarkedmessageid=34

I'm not so fond of tilapia anymore.

just_passing_through says

New Renter says

How about feeding tilapia to the salmon?

I drove around the Salton Sea last summer. It looked just as it does in these pictures:

http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=40&threadid=33067&bookmarkedmessageid=34

I'm not so fond of tilapia anymore.

You can always farm them yourself:
http://www.tilapiafarmingathome.com/Pages/default.aspx

I've been to the Salton Sea area as well. Not my cup of tea.

Zlxr says

If this happens will they decide to feed the fish dead bodies of humans and animals that they don't want to bury? It's in another country - and if the people decide not to like us - will they even care and how will we know?

So just how many degrees of freedom do you WANT from dead bodies? Something has to eat them (either as food or fertilizer). Would you feel more comfortable eating something that ate something that ate a human corpse?

Human ash scattered at sea -> plankton -> small fish -> predator fish -> your plate.

Hey - I only put the idea out there. It's a personal preference thing.

I'm fine with ashes - at least they are more or less clean. But even with ashes you would think that someone could mine the nutrients and heavy metals etc. so you could use them to the best advantage.

We've already got the Mad Cow problem from feeding animal flesh to other animals. Did we not learn anything from this?

Another issue I forgot to mention is that they (AquaBounty) only tested a few fish. They are not supplying all of the info they know. The question is why?

But the very biggest issue is that what the U.S. does with this first GMO animal - is setting a precedent for us and for the whole world for future GMO animals.

Do we really want to set the rules so low that anything goes?

Hey Xlxr,

Here is something else you might find of interest:

http://frogmom.com/category/farmsandorchards/

This blog has some nice descriptions of farms and orchards to visit around the SFBA.

Thanks New Renter.

By the way - I started talking about finding someone with fruit to spare and I think I will have a source for free persimmons and apricots. We always had persimmons growing up - you just have to get used to the fact that they look like they're almost ready for the garbage can when they are ripe and ready to eat.

Just like if you want to make good banana bread you need to use overripe bananas.

If any of you can find sweet fruit - the way it used to be - try freezing sections and eating them instead of popsicles. We used to do that with orange and peach slices and with berries.

Or - my Mom would cut up fruit and slightly cook it and add cinnamon and that's what we got on our pancakes and french toast (instead of syrup).

I grew up with nice hot cooked breakfasts - and it's still the way to go. The only other good substitute is a really good smoothie with fruit, protein and hopefully a carrot or something vegetable. But I don't use soy anymore.

One possible way to deal with not such sweet fruit would be to cut them up and dip them in lemon or lime juice mixed with a little Stevia. The lemon and lime keep them from turning brown and hopefully stevia will be better than real sugar.

It's true that fruit isn't like it used to be - but it's also true that the more sugar you have in your diet - the more sour fruits and vegetables will taste.

Your welcome.

I had a coworker who I would give surplus Haychia persimmons to. He would then slice them up and dry them to make a nice treat. My son LOVED these. Of course I would often find his stashes about the house. Still drying is a great way to preserve persimmons and apricots as neither of these keep well.

It should also not be too hard to find sources of free apples. You are very close to Gravenstein apple country. Even in SSJ these trees are common and when they produce they REALLY produce. I also see Granny Smith, Golden Delicious, Newtown Pippin, and crabs around as well. I've had friends give me grocery bags full of apples that they had no idea what to do with but felt guilty at the idea of just throwing good food away.