patrick.net

elliemae says

A practical woman (there are a few of us around) would prefer you spend less on the ring & wedding - and more on something important like the future.

A nice honeymoon trip is cool too, but not opulent.

I prefer if the woman spends her money on our future! An old vintage Saab convertible would be cool and not too opulent ;)

SoftShell says

that takes care of #1.

what about #2??

Plenty enough #2 (and #3) for us.

Thanks for asking!

epitaph says

I'm very happy to be tying the knot but this process is ridiculous.

We had a cheapskate wedding, bbq beforehand in place of formal rehearsal dinner. Titanium rings and few thousand for a location and catering, done. The night before, she and bridesmaids were obsessing over flower arrangements. The day of she was annoyed with the caterer. This was in 2005. I said "that shit doesn't matter".

I asked her yesterday what she remembers from the wedding. The people and socializing and dancing are what sticks. What she ate or what the flowers looked like? Not important.

We are both STEM people though, a group that is more about substance and less about appearance and keeping up with the Joneses.

Vicente says

We are both STEM people though, a group that is more about substance and less about appearance and keeping up with the Joneses.

sbh says

The expensive ring and the opulent wedding and honeymoon are the modern-day replacement of the dowry, and I don't see why women don't see them as symbols of their objectification and purchase. Perhaps the wedding and ring are the culmination of the vaunted female "mate selection process" represented in by a commercial edification. One would think the underlying love and commitment would be the important thing.

All girls want fancy fairy tale weddings, that's how they are genetically programmed.
I tell my daughter to just elope, and i'll give her $100,000 for a down payment on a house.

elliemae says

I stand corrected! I want diamonds! The chocolate ones that they're pushing on tv, and there was a blue one and and yellow one and.... Fuck it - everyone pitch in & buy me a diamond!!! please!

Don't you have to marry all of us first?

elliemae says

A practical woman (there are a few of us around) would prefer you spend less on the ring & wedding - and more on something important like the future.

A nice honeymoon trip is cool too, but not opulent.

A nice practical woman? What is that?

sbh says

Strategist says

I tell my daughter to just elope, and i'll give her $100,000 for a down payment on a house.

If she takes the 100k you know you've done your job well.

She is still young, but so far has refused.

CaptainShuddup says

epitaph says

What is a reasonable amount of money to spend on a ring/wedding?

We got married at the JP. Big wedding are the biggest waste of money in our Society. Save that money and so something useful with it.

I've known newly weds that just had a $30,000 wedding, then less than three months later they are struggling to pay rent and their other bills.

Those kids would have been better off with 30K in seed money.

Everyone is agreeing on a topic here. What's wrong with everyone?

sbh says

Strategist says

All girls want fancy fairy tale weddings, that's how they are genetically programmed.

I think it triggers an endorphin release that is irresistible to females, kind of like the mate selection feedback on steroids. The anticipation makes them quite literally insane. Imagine what set of psychic responses an eighteen year old guy would have in response to the notion of having his one and only sexual encounter. It would be hard to get him to trade that for 100k.

I almost came at just the thought of it. And when the time came, it was over in a second.

epitaph says

What is a reasonable amount of money to spend on a ring/wedding?

Research DeBeers and the absolutely ludicrous cost of diamonds, then research conflict diamonds--If you have a soul and a brain, you will not buy a diamond ever again. 12 years ago, my husband and I got silver bands off the internet, then got them engraved--total was around $100.
$Got a designer dress from the manufacturer for $100, had my mom augment it (sold it after the wedding for $80). I paid for dresses for my bridesmaids and flower girls. My Afghan friends brought amazing spread; others brought food too. My husband and I and friends were the band. The DJ was the videographer and a groomsman. Hall rental was super cheap ($120) because it was in the tiny town of Clyde. Everyone pitched in with flower decoration, etc. It's super great to have friends who are artists and entertainers--they are used to putting together great parties on the cheap.

Oh and my dad was the officiant ($0).

I got away with a wedding for under 2K.

We could have blown a bunch of our and our parents' money, but for what? My in-laws spent $15K on my SIL's wedding, which was two days before ours. Her marriage lasted less than 3 months.

Strategist says

All girls want fancy fairy tale weddings, that's how they are genetically programmed.

"ALL" really? Weird, but I used to play "divorced mom who lives in an apartment" when I was a kid. I have no idea where I got the idea. But, it was so far removed from my conservative upbringing. In any case, my little girl friends and I never talked about fairy tale weddings. We were too busy playing football, baseball, kick the can, and army with all the neighborhood boys.

And by the time a girl becomes a woman, she should have given up her childhood fantasies.

BayArea says

any piece of advise or wisdom, what would it be?

I like this one: "Expect 40%, give 60%" - if both in the relationship are living by that mantra, it's a good start.

Pay attention to how similar your views are on:

Intention to have children
Financial matters
Religion

New Renter says

hrhjuliet says

take the boys to dance class

Did your boys have any trouble in school for taking dance or did you enroll them concurrently into some lethal form of martial arts?

My boys don't have any trouble, since we have strong masculine role models at our dance school. Our boys are also taught in our house to ignore ridiculous gender stereotypes, especially ones that only really apply mainly in the the States alone. Also, my older son is part of the Ukrainian dance, which is rooted in military training; so anything but feminine for the boys. We have more boys than girls in that. The teen girls do show up though...they like that class because the teacher from the Ukraine is pretty handsome, but also engaged to the gorgeous ballet instructor at our school, so they can dream on.

My boys are pretty confident too. A sixth grader at our school who loved ballet, and was gifted at it, got teased by another boy about it. The other boy took his lunch, and things like that, threatening to tell the other kids if he told about the bullying. It was horrible, the kid quit a week before playing the soldier captain in the Nutcracker. He only recently told anyone why he quit. The bully was suspended, and the ballet boy found the other kids thought ballet was not just okay, but cool. The girl he liked in his class REALLY thought it was cool, and they are "going around" as they say now.

Football players do it, baseball players do it, I even danced with a professional baseball player who trained in ballet at the same facility as the ballet company I danced in, he plays for the Giants now.

Why wouldn't a boy want to train in a room full of girls in leotards? Rather be smacking other men's butts in tights on the football field? Hmmmm?

It's sad, dance should be for everyone: young, old, girls and boys. Why are so many good things only for girls? I think there is a war on men, not women.

epitaph says

Well, the reason I ask is because I recently decided to buy the cow as they say and purchase an expensive ring knowing it was money that could be better used. The good news is that the wedding will be about 3.5k total which is pretty frugal considering all of the over priced options the bay area has to offer. The ring was 5k which naturally I thought was too fucking much, but considering her sister got a 2+ karat diamond she probably thought she was taking a pretty big discount. And the one thing I've learned through this whole wedding process is that there are crooks at every corner ready to offer some stupid overpriced service that you don't need but hey EVERYONE DOES IT SO YOU SHOULD TOO. That capitalized part petty much sums up what I think about weddings in the western world. I'm very happy to be tying the knot but this process is ridiculous.

The average engagement ring costs 5.2k.

Average wedding is America 25.2k.

Our ENTIRE wedding, including our clothes, invitations etc. cost about 1,500. My ring cost 200, but that's not fair since I technically wear a child's size (4 and under) and that made it cheaper. It's also just a band with engraving on the inside, but I love it. It matches my husband's for one thing, and I didn't have to take it off to partner in ballet. You usually can't wear a ring when partnering because you could scratch someone, but mine was just a band, so it was safe.

It was a gorgeous wedding and a magical day. It doesn't need to cost a fortune.

Strategist says

All girls want fancy fairy tale weddings, that's how they are genetically programmed.

I tell my daughter to just elope, and i'll give her $100,000 for a down payment on a house.

I didn't want a fairytale wedding, I just wanted to honor tradition; we have so few rites of passage anymore. We also wanted to have a big enough excuse to get everyone together we loved, which was the main motivation. It worked. Family from France and the Ukraine came, and all my teachers and friends from England, not to mention here in the States we had Washington, Oregon, Maine, New York and Utah represented. That's why our honeymoon was sticking around for weeks doing things in the Bay Area with all our guests who came from so far.

Make it a wonderful memory.

hrhjuliet says

Our ENTIRE wedding, including our clothes, invitations etc. cost about 1,500. My ring cost 200, but that's not fair since I technically wear a child's size (4 and under) and that made it cheaper. It's also just a band with engraving on the inside, but I love it. It matches my husband's for one thing, and I didn't have to take it off to partner in ballet. You usually can't wear a ring when partnering because you could scratch someone, but mine was just a band, so it was safe.

It was a gorgeous wedding and a magical day. It doesn't need to cost a fortune.

Can you have a word with my daughter? Normally she is very very frugal, but I can't understand why she wants a big wedding when the time comes.

I played football and basketball in HS and joined a fraternity in college and played all the intermural sports for the house.

Looking back, I do wish I had more balls to have done dance.

hrhjuliet says

A sixth grader at our school who loved ballet, and was gifted at it, got teased by another boy about it. The other boy took his lunch, and things like that, threatening to tell the other kids if he told about the bullying. It was horrible, the kid quit a week before playing the soldier captain in the Nutcracker. He only recently told anyone why he quit.

That's pretty much what I'd expect.
hrhjuliet says

The bully was suspended

In my day the school administration turned a blind eye to such bullying by rationalizing kids need to work that out for themselves. That's giving them the benefit of doubt. It was my distinct impression administrators just didn't give a crap or maybe felt the little fa&&@!" needed a good asskicking to "beat the queer out of him." Punishment would only come into play if the bullied kid's parents got a lawyer. Such was the time before Columbine and Mathew Sheppard.

hrhjuliet says

and the ballet boy found the other kids thought ballet was not just okay, but cool. The girl he liked in his class REALLY thought it was cool, and they are "going around" as they say now.

Glad to hear it worked out for him.

hrhjuliet says

Why wouldn't a boy want to train in a room full of girls in leotards? Rather be smacking other men's butts in tights on the football field? Hmmmm?

Or sweatily wrestling around on the floor, desperately grasping at other trying to have their way with them.

Oh yes, methinks the jock doth protest too much.

OTOH being in a room full of girls in leotards sounds like a recipe for a sexual harassment suit.

hrhjuliet says

It's sad, dance should be for everyone: young, old, girls and boys. Why are so many good things only for girls?

Because a tomboy is far, far more acceptable to American society than being a "sissy".

The most important question IMO: How do they handle stress?

areusure says

The most important question IMO: How do they handle stress?

Ah an excellent point I forgot!

Early in my dating of Mrs. Vicente, we took a 2-week hostel-hopping trip around the Yucatan. A trip in another country with a few adversities will really show you whether you can stand to share a bathroom with this person long-term.

New Renter says

It's sad, dance should be for everyone: young, old, girls and boys. Why are so many good things only for girls?

Because a tomboy is far, far more acceptable to American society than being a "sissy".

Exactly. This is one of the many reasons I would argue that there is a war on men, not women. We can be whatever we want to be, but you can't. We can have a career or be a stay-at-home mom, but stay-at-home dads are still frowned on. Take formal wear as an example: You men wear a uniform of the drabbest colors on the planet, or black, in the most boring cut that barely shows off the male body. While we wear bright colors and have a thousand ways to show off our individuality and our body. You have to hide your body and hide your individuality. Your hair should be short, ours can be short or long. You are the worker bee, even at our human celebrations, for isn't that what formal wear is for? Once at the celebration, don't sing, don't dance and don't show affection. Whatever you do, don't engage in anything that makes life worth living, and if you do, don't do it public....but we can.

See my point? Who is really being oppressed?

hrhjuliet says

: You men wear a uniform of the drabbest colors on the planet, or black, in the most boring cut that barely shows off the male body. While we wear bright colors and have a thousand ways to show off our individuality and our body. You have to hide your body and hide your individuality. Your hair should be short, ours can be short or long. You are the worker bee, even at our human celebrations, for isn't that what formal wear is for? Once at the celebration, don't sing, don't dance and don't show affection. Whatever you do, don't engage in anything that makes life worth living, and if you do, don't do it public....but we can.

See my point? Who is really being oppressed?

Right! Which is why gay men are so..."gay" ;)

New Renter says

hrhjuliet says

: You men wear a uniform of the drabbest colors on the planet, or black, in the most boring cut that barely shows off the male body. While we wear bright colors and have a thousand ways to show off our individuality and our body. You have to hide your body and hide your individuality. Your hair should be short, ours can be short or long. You are the worker bee, even at our human celebrations, for isn't that what formal wear is for? Once at the celebration, don't sing, don't dance and don't show affection. Whatever you do, don't engage in anything that makes life worth living, and if you do, don't do it public....but we can.

See my point? Who is really being oppressed?

Right! Which is why gay men are so..."gay" ;)

Right? ;-)
But remember, peacocks are not female. Men are gorgeous and should be shown off too. I wish men had more room to be themselves and express it.

I spent my whole life in the dance world and only one guy was gay, and my dad worked at IBM for over thirty years and he knew at least four, and who knows how many others feel they need to hide who they are so we never knew about them. The ballet world has just about as many straight guys as any field, despite what Americans think. They just happen to be straight guys with a lot of confidence, and maybe that's half the problem, maybe most men are secretly suffering from a lack of real inner self worth?

I feel men are pushed around. Why should the man have to buy an expensive ring and not the lady? Why should men stand up there at the wedding like a prop or accessory to the all important bride? I thought it was a marriage between two people not a pageant for the bride? Why should men carry the heavy financial load? Women work now, so why the old fashion nonsense? If we women are going to be equal than we need to start treating men like equals. I'm tired of seeing men oppresse their individuality, dreams, and needs. It seems the only acceptable need for men is war, sports and sex, which is great, but men have other needs, other dreams and some really don't care for war or sports, and for heaven's sake that's great too.

Guys shouldn't have to be drunk to get away with showing affection, dancing, singing or basically displaying joy, or participating in a joyful activity. Is the only acceptable form of joy screaming over a football game? What if like my husband, who loves to play sports, finds watching sports boring as hell? Where is his social outlet?

My problem is my husband is my best friend, I was really good friends with my dance partner, I have lots of guy friends, my dad and I talk like friends, and I have two boys. Because of all of that, I am not under the delusion men are alike, or that they all enjoy being straggled by such rigid ideals. Men have one life to live too, it would be nice if we women wouldn't expect men to live it on a gray treadmill supporting our vibrant, cheerful and decadent lifestyle until they retire.

hrhjuliet says

My problem is my husband is my best friend, I was really good friends with my dance partner, I have lots of guy friends, my dad and I talk like friends, and I have two boys. Because of all of that, I am not under the delusion men are alike, or that they all enjoy being straggled by such rigid ideals. Men have one life to live too, it would be nice if we women wouldn't expect men to live it on a gray treadmill supporting our vibrant, cheerful and decadent lifestyle until they retire.

I'm beginning to like this girl even more.
Can you do mankind a favor and make a documentary?

My wife has my great grandmothers ring. Even though it's not big and flashy, she loves it because its a family heirloom and makes her feel special.

We got married in Hawaii and our budget was 10K. We made it, but obviously when you do destination you are putting a burden on your guests. The upside is that you have a smaller group. We would not have been able to have something as nice locally with a larger guest list that would be expected.

Why does she need insurance if she is getting a settlement of half the marital assets and also alimony if she is making a lower income?

Bullshit says

The ring is simply insurance for the woman if the marriage doesn't work out. If she wants a bigger ring: she anticipates things not working out.

Sam1000 says

Why does she need insurance if she is getting a settlement of half the marital assets and also alimony if she is making a lower income?

Bullshit says

The ring is simply insurance for the woman if the marriage doesn't work out. If she wants a bigger ring: she anticipates things not working out.

I think the engagement ring is to claim exclusivity of the woman's charms BEFORE marriage.

Perhaps it was a bribe against the women from getting herself knocked up by her secret "bad boy" boyfriend or "Mr Right now" before the wedding and cuckolding the hapless husband into raising someone else's kids.

Someone posted this "Best of" Craigslist ad a while ago here on Patnet and its worth revisiting. It highlights nicely what I am talking about:

http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sea/274495936.html

After all until the paperwork is signed she (now neither person) has no claim to any of the others assets.

hrhjuliet says

Take formal wear as an example: You men wear a uniform of the drabbest colors on the planet, or black, in the most boring cut that barely shows off the male body.

I married a musician, so that's never an issue. If you see a guy with a magnificent beard walking around downtown Walnut Creek in bright green, blue, red, or orange pants, tell him we need some whole milk from Whole Foods (the kind in the glass bottle). Thanks.

Call it Crazy says

Strategist says

hrhjuliet says

It was a gorgeous wedding and a magical day. It doesn't need to cost a fortune.

Can you have a word with my daughter? Normally she is very very frugal, but I can't understand why she wants a big wedding when the time comes.

Ha Ha... Daughters....oh boy....

You know, you can always just get a ladder at Home Depot and prop it up at her window... hint... hint...

And maybe even an envelope with $5,0000 on the bottom rung.
Knowing her, she would climb down, take the envelope, and climb right back up again.

hrhjuliet says

But remember, peacocks are not female. Men are gorgeous and should be shown off too.

In biology, male animals have to be either useful or pretty. They do not have to be both.

Vicente says

In biology, male animals have to be either useful or pretty. They do not have to be both.

And/or be tasty:

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/episodes/what-males-will-do/meet-the-mate-munchers/953/

This was a great thread. I'm still married and I have inherited Three Grandkids I had to adopt. 4 going on 5, 2 going on 3, and one just turned 1.

How did you guys make out in the 6 years since this thread?

India 1% n Chile 13% divorce rate most western countries 50%. Though still curious on why women gave dowry when they get married in some areas of india but in western culture u pay all for women .

If u meet women below 25 , college educated in stem, and makes little less money than you then u are ok. Money / hypergamy r main causes of divorse.

Also noticed that most ppl dont get married after 35. Womens main asset, look fades a lot after 28 and at the same time mens testosterone so little need to approach a women.
I read most divorce happen at 32 as womens look fade but mens status with better job increases. If woman adjusted accordingly then it works out, but most women continue to think their pussy is magical. 1 in 3.7 billion lol

KgK one says

Womens main asset, look fades a lot after 28 and at the same time mens testosterone so little need to approach a women.

That is why they must be great Home Makers and have great management skills. They used to teach home economics in High School.
But mostly the girls took it, so as a result we saw with most Boomer and Xgen couples. The Husband may earn the income. But the wife manages all of the money, and pays all of the bills. We see it all the time when the Wife dies the husband is lost what to pay where and the account numbers.

Even in the divorced couples after 50, the Male often does not recover to the standard of living he had with his wife.
I even mean in where there was no alimony, the house was sold and the proceeds split.

These scenarios of course are couples that got married younger than 25, many even high school sweet hearts.

I never got people that waited until after 30 to get married. Those are the ones that end up with separate Bank accounts, both are normally expected to have their own careers, they divvy up Bills in responsibilities. I'll pay the mortgage you pay the utilities. Those couples will divorce at the drop of a hat. As both are more independent. Young couples become codependent as they mature.

In the 80's the Liberal rag writers, spun that as a bad thing. But it used to be called Marital bliss. "Can't live with them, can't live without them"

I never got people that waited until after 30 to get married

Waiting till 30 to get married means the man can get established and sow some wild outs. For women, that lets them know that a movie star is not waiting behind every tree, and that all important career is not all it was cracked up to be. Plus by late twenties, both men and women are more sure of what they want. I have several friends who got married at around 22, only to be divorced in less than 10 years by the wife who claimed something like "You stole my youth!" and now wifey wants a shot at glamour and parties.

KgK one says

India 1% n Chile 13% divorce rate most western countries 50%.

When women get everything they want, they are unhappier than ever.

Tenpoundbass says

I never got people that waited until after 30 to get married.

I think that ppl, unless widowed, shouldn't even date past the age of 30, nevermind get married.

Tenpoundbass says

"Can't live with them, can't live without them"

I thought that was from the original 'Muppet Movie' ...

www.youtube.com/embed/Y9jLWqPJTRY

I have only one advice. If your GF is controlling and always wants things done her way, or gets upset over minor things, disrespecting at times. Run as far away as you can and don't look back. DO NOT Marry Her. If you think people change with time, NO THEY DON'T.

KgK one says

India 1% n Chile 13% divorce rate most western countries 50%. Though still curious on why women gave dowry when they get married in some areas of india but in western culture u pay all for women .

Things are changing in India. Women with good paying jobs less likely pay dowry. Industrialization, cost of living and high expectations are driving up divorce rate primarily in cities.
As the people are migrating around, there is less stigma on divorce, I think its a good thing in one way, rather than stuck with bad marriage.
Expectation is low when man is young but goes higher over time. In general male species has no option but to keep up. Its the nature.