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BayArea says

hrhjuliet, refreshing to sometimes get a real woman's perspective who understands it's not about money and appearances. Thank you as well.

You also made an interesting point about men being more caught up on appearances and women more on money (if you have to choose a sex).

My 33yrs of experience has been a little different living in the Bay Area. You are spot on about women caring about a man's wallet more than a man caring about a woman's, in general.

But when it comes to appearances, it's a coin toss as to which sex is generally shallower in that regard... I've encountered just as many shallow women as men when it comes to the appearances dept.

True, especially about height and eye color, which is terribly shallow and stupid. When I met my husband we were the same height (I am 5.6) but he ended up 6.2. I remember telling one of my height obsessed girlfriends that I couldn't remember him miraculously becoming a better man at 6.2 - seemed to be the same exact guy.

I've met a lot of guys in the Bay who won't date a girl who can't help him put a down payment on a house, so you are right, it goes both ways.

Still, both should be signs the other person isn't ready for a committed relationship.

Also, I used to joke in my early twenties that the bigger the diamond she required the shorter the duration of the marriage. Sad thing is: it's been true.

hrhjuliet says

True, especially about height and eye color, which is terribly shallow and stupid. When I met my husband we were the same height (I am 5.6) but he ended up 6.2. I remember telling one of height obsessed girlfriends that I couldn't remember him miraculously becoming a better man at 6.2 - seemed to be the same exact guy.

I've met a lot of guys in the Bay who won't date a girl who can't help him put a down payment on a house, so you are right, it goes both ways.

Still, both should be signs the other person isn't ready for a committed relationship.

Exactly my point.

I don't know any guys that have a height cut-off for a girl. The MAJORITY of girls I know do have a height cut-off for guys.

It seems like 5'8" is that threshold that I keep hearing from girls. It can be made up for by personality and/or money, but not always easily as it can be tough to get that chance to show what you else can offer. Kinda sad, but that's how our world works.

And I agree with you on the diamond comment... Size of required diamond is inversely proportional to the length of the marriage. Has anyone here ever actually got married to a girl that specified a diamond size requirement? Good gawd, lol.

Haven't heard of eye color, but how's green sounding ;-)

I'd heard of the diamond size thing too, so I bought a nice ring with a very modest diamond for my sweetie. She was still thrilled to be marrying me, which proved to me that she was definitely the one.
For our five year anniversary I surprised her by "upgrading" it to a really nice rock she can be proud of in front of her more materialistic friends. Turns out the larger stone was a good investment too. I think it's value has gone up 50% since.

I've heard that the tradition of placing an aged piece of cut carbon on girl's finger to prove your genuine intentions to marry her is something that was invented about 90yrs ago.

Brilliant!

a href="http://patrick.net/?p=1220286&c=1077793#comment-1077793">BayArea says

It seems like 5'8" is that threshold that I keep hearing from girls. It can be made up for in personality and/or money, but not always easily. Kinda sad, but that's how our world works.

And I agree with you on the diamond comment... Size of required diamond is inversely proportional to the length of the marriage. Has anyone here ever actually got married to a girl that specified a diamond size requirement? Good gawd, lol.

Shouldn't be how our world works, and in healthy relationships it doesn't work that way. :-)

Oh goodness, if I had a dime for every time a heard one of my girlfriends attribute how much a guy loved them by the ring they got. Sickening. Have you heard of upgrading? Very popular in the Valley, a guy does well and he is expected to get her a new and fancier ring. I have a simple metal band, and it was put on my finger on my wedding day by my husband's hands and for no reason under the sun is it coming off for a fancier ring possibly mined by children - no thank you. Beware of the big wedding girl too. Weddings have turned into pageants for the bride, and the man is just an accessory. We had a beautiful wedding, but we kept it super simple. It was a lovely day because the pressure was low and we made it about our loved ones sharing our lives, not a photo fest.

Basically, be careful who you choose to marry. Marriage is a long business and superficial, selfish and prideful people usually don't last long in the business.

Spot on again!

I am very weary of the pageant pride. Major red flag... on the same level as the min rock size bride. RUN

Juliet, as someone that has been married for 25yrs, do you believe that we have an obligation to stay in shape and do our part to keep up appearances as best we can for ourselves and the other person (within reason of course)?

BayArea says

Spot on again!

I am very weary of the pageant pride. Major red flag... on the same level as the min rock size bride. RUN

Sounds like you will do very well. :-)
You've got your head on straight and it sounds like you found a nice girl.

hrhjuliet says

BayArea says

Spot on again!

I am very weary of the pageant pride. Major red flag... on the same level as the min rock size bride. RUN

Sounds like you will do very well. :-)

You've got your head on straight and it sounds like you found a nice girl.

Thank you and I certainly hope so.

BayArea says

Juliet, as someone that has been married for 25yrs, do you believe that we have an obligation to stay in shape and do our part to keep up appearances as best we can for ourselves and the other person (within reason of course)?

You are asking an ex-professional ballerina. ;-) And we have been together for 25 years and married for eleven. We both wanted to finish college first to qualify for certain scholarships, so waited to get married.

My answer should be yes, but it's more complicated than that. In theory no, not a requirement, but something nice you do for your spouse on many levels. Everyone likes to see a healthy person at any age, and we are deprived of aesthetics enough in this era. The second reason is I want my husband to live a long and healthy life, so it makes me less anxious to see him take care of himself. It makes a difference, it truly does. I want lots of healthy years with my husband and boys, that's why I make the choice to feed my family healthy foods and take the boys to dance class and hikes with us. We all eat very healthy, and hike, bike and dance. We also don't drink alcohol which is unusual. We only drink water and coffee.

I thought the secret to successful long term marriage was chandelier swinging and naked trapeze riding wife swapping parties at monthly intervals.

Ceffer says

I thought the secret to successful long term marriage was chandelier swinging and naked trapeze riding wife swapping parties at monthly intervals.

I can do the first half successfully, expertly even, but no swapping. No one touches me or my man.

Ok, I'll throw something into this fire, if you're an American guy ... if you hadn't met Ms Right by the ages of 23 to 25, don't bother.

Afterwards, ppl lose their innocence and become opportunistic and manipulative.

Rin says

Ok, I'll throw something into this fire, if you're an American guy ... if you hadn't met Ms Right by the ages of 23 to 25, don't bother.

Afterwards, ppl lose their innocence and become opportunistic and manipulative.

Not all people. The nicest couple I know met and married, both for the first time, in their forties. The kindest and most genuine couple I have ever known.

hrhjuliet says

Rin says

Ok, I'll throw something into this fire, if you're an American guy ... if you hadn't met Ms Right by the ages of 23 to 25, don't bother.

Afterwards, ppl lose their innocence and become opportunistic and manipulative.

Not all people. The nicest couple I know met and married, both for the first time, in their forties. The kindest and most genuine couple I have ever known.

I'm not saying that it's not possible but probabilities go down dramatically, after the age of innocence.

Rin says

I'm not saying that it's not possible but probabilities go down dramatically, after the age of innocence.

You might be right that it gets harder. When I met my husband he was short, skinny, freckled, and his teeth hadn't grown into his face, and I was chubby cheeked, freakishly skinny, and badly in need of braces. Our sexy ride was our old rusty bikes, and money simply meant ice cream after a movie. And we couldn't have been more in love.

The world jades people pretty bad, but there are lots of people who manage to not let the world ruin them. They are out there at every age.

sbh says

hrhjuliet says

And we couldn't have been more in love.

I'm truly proud for you. I feel the same way about my wife. Her only flaw is her lousy taste in men.

:-)

hrhjuliet says

sbh says

hrhjuliet says

And we couldn't have been more in love.

I'm truly proud for you. I feel the same way about my wife. Her only flaw is her lousy taste in men.

:-)

See....isn't life good guys?
Now let me jump on my wife before she gets her headache.

sbh says

Strategist says

Now let me jump on my wife before she gets her headache.

Drink your tea first.

Bah ha ha!

Marriage is OK but the marriages that I see usually have one partner carrying the load.
My friend here asked me about my girlfriend who was upset and mean on skype. I told him she loses her temper and I'm often pissed off, "It's like marriage". Oh oh.
The biology of the sexual attraction is that it wears off by about 5 years, sometimes sooner. The "seven year itch" is the time you are ready to leave no matter how expensive it is.
California is a deadly state to be married in unless you have a premarital agreement. I know of many nightmares, wife and husband being unreasonable in random cases.
My friend married a guy and they worked and had 3 houses, one practically paid for, one cash flow positive, the one they lived in had lots of equity. The husband wanted to leave and be with a girlfriend but was so angry that the wife sued for divorce, he allowed all 3 houses to be foreclosed so that she would be "out in the street".
If you ever do get married or "buy the cow" as some say, make sure you have not had serious doubts about her anger or background.
The notion of being lonely is valid, but if kids are not in the picture, then marriage is not a necessity in California. You can co-habitate for as long as it works.

sbh says

hrhjuliet says

sbh says

Strategist says

Now let me jump on my wife before she gets her headache.

Drink your tea first.

Bah ha ha!

Our private joke at home is oleander salad and wild mushrooms: "Here, darlin' your lunch is ready."

I actually drank oleander tea as kid, at what my mother called our macabre tea party, no joke. I had my stomach pumped and almost died. I had put oleander in my tea to make it pretty. My sister let the doctor shove the tube down her throat, but I fought him, so I spent my toddler years sounding like the exorcist. It was actually very sad. My dad came home and ripped out every bush when he got home. You still can't say the word oleander around my father.

Also, I am afraid in the Boardwalk photo I look like someone who might poison someone's tea. Technically I have poisoned my twin sister's tea, but she lived and with her voice intact. It was me who put the flowers in our tea, so it was my doing. So look out Strategist.

clambo says

The notion of being lonely is valid, but if kids are not in the picture, then marriage is not a necessity in California. You can co-habitate for as long as it works.

I thought marriage wouldn't change anything, just a piece of paper and all that, but I was pleasantly surprised that it did change things. The day of the wedding was undescribable. All I can say in words is that having all your loved ones and your spouse's loved ones looking so happy and beautiful, and all there to witness your family be joined, well, it's magical. Also, it took me years before any one calling me Mrs. plus my husband's name didn't make me smile. It still makes me happy.

We've been together 25 years this year and married eleven years. I'm okay with the oleander story, especially since I don't personally remember it. It's my poor dad who is traumatized. It's strange, I still say oleander smells like candy, but I have had friends who say that they can't smell that or that it stinks?

Rin says

hrhjuliet says

Rin says

Ok, I'll throw something into this fire, if you're an American guy ... if you hadn't met Ms Right by the ages of 23 to 25, don't bother.

Afterwards, ppl lose their innocence and become opportunistic and manipulative.

Not all people. The nicest couple I know met and married, both for the first time, in their forties. The kindest and most genuine couple I have ever known.

I'm not saying that it's not possible but probabilities go down dramatically, after the age of innocence.

Rin, that's an interesting topic you bring up.

Not only for marriage, but I find that every year I get older, it somehow gets just a little harder to form genuine deep relationships with people. As the innocence is lost, people get more rigid, more jaded, more solidified in their beliefs... Outside of my family, the closest people in my life are ones that I went through some sort of struggle with. Getting through engineering school together, playing high school football together, perhaps moving to a new city together, etc...

Outside of becoming more rigid/jaded, I find that as people get older, many also marry, and the vast majority of those who do marry are no longer available on that deeper friendship level anymore. There are only so many hrs in a day and only so much of yourself that you have available to give outside of your spouse/kids.

Going back to marriage, I definitely think there's some truth to what you are saying that as people get older, there is certainly more of the opportunistic/manipulative nature that tends to come out, especially in the dating world. I will also say that in general the amount of baggage that a person has correlates with age. The older you are, the higher the likelihood that you have had more partners, kids, shared finances, etc...

But despite this, I do believe that most people are good, they give their best, want to do what's right, and ultimately want to be happy with that special someone.

hrhjuliet says

My answer should be yes, but it's more complicated than that. In theory no, not a requirement, but something nice you do for your spouse on many levels. Everyone likes to see a healthy person at any age, and we are deprived of aesthetics enough in this era. The second reason is I want my husband to live a long and healthy life, so it makes me less anxious to see him take care of himself. It makes a difference, it truly does. I want lots of healthy years with my husband and boys, that's why I make the choice to feed my family healthy foods and take the boys to dance class and hikes with us. We all eat very healthy, and hike, bike and dance. We also don't drink alcohol which is unusual. We only drink water and coffee.

Excellent answer...

BayArea says

It's been a while since I've come back here but I have to thank all of you for sharing your insight and experiences. That was a very educational and entertaining read folks.

So... how'd it go?

This is too long a thread for me to re-read, but I've been thinking about this point recently. The 3 things in order of priority that a couple needs to be ing good agreement on in the long run:

1) Money
2) Sex
3) Children

The Missus and I both established early on, we were tightwads and savers/investors. We are both minimalists and would rather travel than have a mansion and a million things to own us. Arguments about money? Never.

hrhjuliet says

take the boys to dance class

Did your boys have any trouble in school for taking dance or did you enroll them concurrently into some lethal form of martial arts?

What is a reasonable amount of money to spend on a ring/wedding?

epitaph says

What is a reasonable amount of money to spend on a ring/wedding?

My rule of thumb is:

Ring: 2 days' work
Wedding: 2 months' work

You may also want to subliminally telegraph the silliness of diamonds throughout the relationship.

Just say a ring is meaningful only if it is symbolic. But talk about this over an expensive dinner, so she doesn't think you are cheap.

It's all about mind tricks.

NOT RELATIONSHIP ADVICE

I didn't realize this was an old thread.

epitaph says

What is a reasonable amount of money to spend on a ring/wedding?

We got married at the JP. Big wedding are the biggest waste of money in our Society. Save that money and so something useful with it.

I've known newly weds that just had a $30,000 wedding, then less than three months later they are struggling to pay rent and their other bills.

Those kids would have been better off with 30K in seed money.

that takes care of #1.
what about #2??

Vicente says

1) Money

2) Sex

3) Children

The Missus and I both established early on, we were tightwads and savers/investors. We are both minimalists and would rather travel than have a mansion and a million things to own us. Arguments about money? Never.

The ring is simply insurance for the woman if the marriage doesn't work out. If she wants a bigger ring: she anticipates things not working out.

Well, the reason I ask is because I recently decided to buy the cow as they say and purchase an expensive ring knowing it was money that could be better used. The good news is that the wedding will be about 3.5k total which is pretty frugal considering all of the over priced options the bay area has to offer. The ring was 5k which naturally I thought was too fucking much, but considering her sister got a 2+ karat diamond she probably thought she was taking a pretty big discount. And the one thing I've learned through this whole wedding process is that there are crooks at every corner ready to offer some stupid overpriced service that you don't need but hey EVERYONE DOES IT SO YOU SHOULD TOO. That capitalized part petty much sums up what I think about weddings in the western world. I'm very happy to be tying the knot but this process is ridiculous.

The average engagement ring costs 5.2k.
Average wedding is America 25.2k.

A practical woman (there are a few of us around) would prefer you spend less on the ring & wedding - and more on something important like the future.

A nice honeymoon trip is cool too, but not opulent.

elliemae says

A practical woman (there are a few of us around) would prefer you spend less on the ring & wedding - and more on something important like the future.

A nice honeymoon trip is cool too, but not opulent.

The problem is that society and advertising has created this unrealistic idea of what a wedding is that most women can't seem to shake.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/N5kWu1ifBGU

I stand corrected! I want diamonds! The chocolate ones that they're pushing on tv, and there was a blue one and and yellow one and.... Fuck it - everyone pitch in & buy me a diamond!!! please!

I know you are trying to hint that I'm deluded, and congrats on realizing what is not important in life, but empirically, I have seen that most women like jewellery and nice weddings.