patrick.net

Oxygen says

here's the best comment from the article, in my opinion, and i think it's even better than the article itself

Sorry man, this is complete and utter bullshit.

A marriage in THIS culture has to be a partnership, not a patriarchy. There will likely be times where the man is un/under employed and the woman is the main breadwinner. I personally know of two situations like this, one where the husband and wife are both believers in the patriarch model while the other marriage is more balanced. The patriarch couple is very stressed - the husband feels shitty because he is not earning and the wife is losing respect for him because she has to support them. The balanced couple has a LOT less stress.

A patriarchy is just not compatible with that situation. It is also a lousy model for kids.

BayArea says

I am a bit discouraged at just how many people I know who don't seem to be too happy in their marriages.

Sounds like you are hanging around with the wrong folks. Are they Hipsters?

denise says

Female here, and you guys are pathetic.

Marry someone who's your best friend, whose company you enjoy, who makes you laugh, whom you trust and care about. If you do, you will probably be happy. If you don't, you screwed up, and you have no one to blame but yourself.

There are no end of greedy, selfish people in the world, but you don't have to marry one. If you do, you need to learn how to be a better judge of character.

Yeh, I agree.
Maybe some "guys" spend too much time on the internets and the blogs and not enough time getting a life.

New Renter says

Oxygen says

here's the best comment from the article, in my opinion, and i think it's even better than the article itself

Sorry man, this is complete and utter bullshit.

A marriage in THIS culture has to be a partnership, not a patriarchy. There will likely be times where the man is un/under employed and the woman is the main breadwinner. I personally know of two situations like this, one where the husband and wife are both believers in the patriarch model while the other marriage is more balanced. The patriarch couple is very stressed - the husband feels shitty because he is not earning and the wife is losing respect for him because she has to support them. The balanced couple has a LOT less stress.

A patriarchy is just not compatible with that situation. It is also a lousy model for kids.

I don't think it's an either or. If the woman is bringing home most of the bacon and the man is ok with it, it can work as well. The problem though is that the person making significantly less (or choosing to do so by staying at home mostly) needs to put the main breadwinner's job as a top priority and pick up slack in the other areas. Only that way you can be mostly free from money issues. Since today on average the man is still the main breadwinner, this is mostly an issue of the woman who does not want to accept that she has to pick up the slack and give the man a break. Also the often so heroically touted sharing of duties brings its own set of problems. Men and women do things differently and I think women often feel "inferior" because they do mostly house-work or work part time only or have a much lesser paid job and then often get their frustration out by lashing out at the guy for not doing things right in the household or in their kids education. The reality is, almost everybody can be a decent parent (not a superstar but decent), however not everybody can be decent programmer/surgeon or whatever. That's why nanny's, while expensive, still make far less than any occupation that requires a good amount of skills, studying and experience.

denise says

Marry someone who's your best friend, whose company you enjoy, who makes you laugh, whom you trust and care about. If you do, you will probably be happy.

Did you do that and followed your own advice?

'I Hate My Wife' @ The Experience Project.

http://www.experienceproject.com/groups/Hate-My-Wife/409

for sure the rate of divorce amongst white middle class 'bobos in paradise' is FAR higher than 50%. I would estimate around 80-90%.

and yes getting married is all about the feels, isn't it? that's what women do, exploit your feels. Ever see a women 'fall in love' with a fat bald poor shlep- unless of course she has no other options. It's not random at all. Go look on OKCupid and all you warm and fuzzy ideas about love will dissipate quickly.

Family is a good idea. Most 'Bobo' women are entirely unsuitable for this purpose. American women are by far the worst, then comes British.

BRP001 says

Look at every statistic related to morality from 1960 forward. They all trend the same way – to a corrupt and valueless society.

what no one here has mentioned, is the LAST and perhaps final battle in this war- redefining marriage altogether!

still think Gay Marriage is really about the rights of Gay people?

as far aBRP001 says

Why is it that the only statistic that’s trending in a supposedly positive direction is the rise in power and wealth of women? Why is every other statistic trending rapidly and precariously in the wrong direction but that one? Hmmm – what’s that word I’m looking for???? I know it rhymes with Marxism, Stalinism, Socialism, and Communism…I think it maybe starts with an ‘F’.

here's a clue.

when the British wanted to take over the Aboriginal tribes of Australia, they decided that confronting them with military power would backfire on them politically, so they decided to destroy the tribes culturally.

how did they do this?

simple. The symbol of male power was the stone axe. so what they did was take manufactured metal axes and gave them to both the men and the women. It was not before long that the Abbo society completely broke down, and they took to drinking heavily as their primary occupation. Then the British took over their habitations claiming they were trying to 'help' with their problems by providing 'aid'.

New Renter, do you have XX chromosome or XY?

if they can ESTABLISH that these things are 'conditioning' then they can JUSTIFY altering them in an unnatural way.

what I cant comprehend is how men in places like America take these accusations, insinuations, defamations, and incitements sitting down. It has resulted in a practically unlivable conditions for us. We are threatened legally in 1) school 2) workplace 3) bedroom 4) family.

"What is too easy to forget is that this is artificial, and therefore requires constant effort to maintain. Feminism didn’t demolish a barrier between two seas and let the water levels adjust; it is a massive pumping operation. Turn off the pumps even for a little bit and reality will come flooding back."

“Whenever women have insisted on absolute equality with men, they have invariably wound up with the dirty end of the stick. What they are and what they can do makes them superior to men, and their proper tactic is to demand special privileges, all the traffic will bear. They should never settle merely for equality. For women, "equality" is a disaster.”
Robert Heinlein

read this:

It doesnt get better with age

http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Hate-My-Wife/614507

denise says

Marry someone who's your best friend, whose company you enjoy, who makes you laugh, whom you trust and care about. If you do, you will probably be happy. If you don't, you screwed up, and you have no one to blame but yourself.

This is very true.

If marriage is the way then you should only marry your soulmate.

Marrying for lust is a recipe for disaster. Lust changes on a yearly or monthly basis. It will not end well.

For many people, serial monogamy will prove to be the best option.

If you just want to sleep with someone hot go get an FwB.

Peter P says

denise says

Marry someone who's your best friend, whose company you enjoy, who makes you laugh, whom you trust and care about. If you do, you will probably be happy. If you don't, you screwed up, and you have no one to blame but yourself.

This is very true.

If marriage is the way then you should only marry your soulmate.

Marrying for lust is a recipe for disaster. Lust changes on a yearly or monthly basis. It will not end well.

For many people, serial monogamy will prove to be the best option.

If you just want to sleep with someone hot go get an FwB.

Yeah, but the trick is to spot your soulmate(s). What about: don't get married, and if you make it until the end, then you were soulmates anyways (with or without marriage certificate)!

mell says

Yeah, but the trick is to spot your soulmate(s). What about: don't get married, and if you make it until the end, then you were soulmates anyways (with or without marriage certificate)!

That is a completely valid point!

Nietzsche on marriage:

http://www.ajol.info/index.php/ipjp/article/viewFile/61115/49300.

I don't agree with the "baby" parts. But then I am no atheist either.

MershedPerturders says

New Renter, do you have XX chromosome or XY?

XY and I have the phenotype to prove it.

"He draws us back to first principles to look at why marriage existed in the first place: it was about what was good for the family and society. Ancient Greek marriages had solid foundations because they were rational business arrangements, roles were very clearly defined, couples could not get divorced, and love was not a factor in the decision."

in Ancient Greece, most MARRIED men engaged in homosexual love for fun and satisfaction.

"Nietzsche was stupid and abnormal." -Leo Tolstoy

New Renter says

MershedPerturders says

New Renter, do you have XX chromosome or XY?

XY and I have the phenotype to prove it.

Granted even among us ducks sit can be hard to tell.

Wow, I read some of those "I Hate My Wife" testimonies. Very sad. But you could probably read just the opposite "I Hate My Husband" because men do the same things:

Get fat, watch TV all weekend, don't bring home enough money, don't want sex. In fact, I have a girlfriend who divorced her husband for just those things. He's 300 pounds and watches TV from the time he gets home until 3:00 in the morning and never comes to bed, did very little work around the house, (she used to mow the lawn and take out the trash even!) she made more money than him. After 20 years of putting up with that she divorced him. In other words, it's not just the women who are lousy marriage partners.

I'm amazed nobody mentioned Kevin Federline.

Conversely, there was a movie about a tiny studio apartment in Manhattan time-shared by near-strangers, can't recall the title now. In real life, that apartment was reportedly home to a gay male couple who later got married, two kids.

One poster here described his bitter divorce and sounded like Paul from the NT comparing American values today to 1960. It sounded like the ex-wife was angry and said things to hurt him so he'd never trust again, and it worked. That has nothing to do with changing values or 1960, there have always been bad marriages and bitter break-ups. Second marriages after divorce represent the triumph of hope over experience, and some succeed very well. The NT and Catholic church prohibit them, but the government recognizes them, which is enough for most people. Not everybody gets it right on the first try, which is why pencils have erasers.

MsBennet says

After 20 years of putting up with that she divorced him. In other words, it's not just the women who are lousy marriage partners.

She made a bad bet.

MsBennet says

Wow, I read some of those "I Hate My Wife" testimonies. Very sad. But you could probably read just the opposite "I Hate My Husband" because men do the same things:

Get fat, watch TV all weekend, don't bring home enough money, don't want sex. In fact, I have a girlfriend who divorced her husband for just those things. He's 300 pounds and watches TV from the time he gets home until 3:00 in the morning and never comes to bed, did very little work around the house, (she used to mow the lawn and take out the trash even!) she made more money than him. After 20 years of putting up with that she divorced him. In other words, it's not just the women who are lousy marriage partners.

Nobody said that, but it's the women who usually pressure for marriage and who file for divorce.

and regaring the comments on 'men are bad partners too'... seems every negative attribution women just DEMAND total and absolute gender equivalence, and everything else they demand special treatment. IT's getting totally out of control. Women worldwide want American men due to their good attitudes towards family and marriage. They are the most ideal partners by worldwide standards.

I knew a guy who was married three times. That gives one pause, but he explained it once. The first was a back seat knock up, they should never have been married as teens. The second, the wife, who was agnostic, became metaphysical and religious to the extreme after a couple of years of marriage. She had groups of religious nutters over to the house speaking in tongues and holy rolling all the time. He walked in on her one day, she was on a step ladder, and one of the men in her congregation was under her with his head up her dress ministering to her private parts in a way that had nothing to do with religion. Chalk up divorce 2.

His third marriage was to a very nice gal and as far as I know has lasted a few decades.

"In a male-led society divorce is often single digits. in an "equal" or female led society, divorce is over 50% and one parent homes are even more common than that."

Female led society - now which would that be?

The US divorce rate is quite low among upper-middle class people, including dual career families. Divorce in this country is to a great degree a feature of social class.

New Renter says

New Renter says

MershedPerturders says

New Renter, do you have XX chromosome or XY?

XY and I have the phenotype to prove it.

Granted even among us ducks sit can be hard to tell.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/qwjEeI2SmiU

just_passing_through says

New Renter says

New Renter says

MershedPerturders says

New Renter, do you have XX chromosome or XY?

XY and I have the phenotype to prove it.

Granted even among us ducks sit can be hard to tell.

Did someone order a pizza?

New Renter says

Do you also feel children are ready for warfare? They are certainly biologically ready to handle an AR-15 at 15 or even 8. Such children have yet to develop a sense of mortality making them willing to conduct dangerous (or suicide) missions and are easier to mold into killing machines. That lack of understanding consequences is exactly why children need to be protected:

That's actually an interesting point. Kids can join the army at 17/18, but a 19 year old cannot bone a 17 year old (state dependent I think) for their protection, something seems off here.

Yes, if you're going by their milkers and hip width only. But that doesn't take into account brain formation and higher cognitive acuity, which are important in the mate selection process. It's not just a social matter, it's a biological matter. Sure, a sixteen year old can drop out a kid, but they shouldn't.

Let me put it another way: any girl who was thirteen three years ago should not be looking to get nailed down.

I can't believe its almost midnight and we are STILL arguing this!

curious2 says

It sounded like the ex-wife was angry and said things to hurt him so he'd never trust again, and it worked.

It worked because she woke me up to reality. It worked because she's the face of things to come. Here's why:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=q6c_dinY3fM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=LJc8Mzg0C-c

Watch these two videos and you'll see that she did nothing other than enlighten me. She unwittingly forced me understand the source of my deep confusion. She made me a better man. Her deception forced me to learn.

BRP001 says

Her deception forced me to learn.

...perhaps the wrong lessons. Of the two video links you posted, the first was quite interesting, but the second (Paul Harvey) was plain silly. Blaming "The Devil"? The world has a long history of bad marriages, for example the Roman emperor Claudius was murdered by his wife. Husbands murdering their wives or ex-wives are practically a cliché. No discussion of marriage can be complete without this possibly misattributed exchange:

Nancy Astor to Winston Churchill: "If you were my husband, I'd poison your tea."

Churchill's reply: "Madam, if you were my wife, I'd drink it."

Marriages can go badly, just as planes can crash and trains can derail. Your first video made a good argument that critical theory incorrectly blames all problems on the founders of the American republic who in fact accomplished great progress, yet you seem to make the same error blaming all problems on social changes since 1960 that have also included great progress. Returning to 17th century England and the divine right of kings wouldn't solve the problems critical theorists describe, and it wouldn't make everybody's marriage better either. Times change, technologies change, but human nature does not change. Your prudence is well founded on experience, but that isn't an argument for returning to prior orders that had their own possibly worse problems.

curious2 says

Blaming "The Devil"?

I was looking at it metaphorically, as in, "What happens to society when its people subscribe to ideals that run counter to its success?"

If progress is defined as the perpetuation of single parent households, out of wedlock births, increasing infidelity, no-fault divorce that results in someone getting badly screwed over by someone else’s search for self-realization, an economy on the edge of collapse, a certain gender opting out of responsible societal behavior, unsustainable debt, rampant proliferation of porn, entitlements on the verge of bankruptcy, millions losing their homes and, millions falling into bankruptsy, the spread of joblessness and poverty causing an ever increasing reliance on welfare, then we’re progressing just fine. I agree that not all marriages are meant to be, but I also believe that, when hypergamy, hypogomy, and infidelity are left unchecked by no-fault divorce, a whole lot of bad things can happen to the uninformed, naïve idealist. My words are meant to warn those would be dupes and to correlate other potentially related, long in the making, statistically and temporally aligned ‘progress’.

Certain sectors and aspects of society are progressing, while others have been and continue to regress. All of us considering marriage should think long and hard about the easily dissolvable ‘commitment’ in marriage and the potential impacts that easily obtained dissolution can have on our lives and futures.

BRP001 says

a whole lot of bad things can happen to the uninformed, naïve idealist.

That has always been true, and probably always will be.

Again, you're blaming the wrong villain. It would make more sense to blame the people who misled you. Pining for the McCarthy era is a misguided waste of time. This thread contains much sound advice, including your caution, but Archie Bunker and Paul of Tarsus aren't the gods you're looking for.

BRP001 says

Marriages can go badly, just as planes can crash and trains can derail.

“Welcome aboard, ladies and gentlemen. You may or may not have known this, but there’s a very good chance this aircraft/train will not reach its destination – if you know what I mean (wink wink). I’m thinking 50/50 give or take a few. You highly educated folks with money don’t have too much to worry about however. We’ve put you in the area of the plane where you’ll likely survive any mishaps. Now if the worst does happen, no one is to blame. We did our best to get you there safely, but you know how these things can happen. Whether or not we were at fault for the crash is irrelevant. You’re still going to have to pay us with your life. I know that sucks, but you’re the ones who were stupid enough to get onboard. For those of you with that get out of death free card…that preflight agreement thingy…you should understand those can be voided and also expire after a while. Enjoy the trip folks!”

Who is making you get married???

How about living together and not getting married.

zzyzzx says

Who is making you get married???

How about living together and not getting married.

In some jurisdictions, they consider that to be common law marriage and they make men pay the women- even though you are not married.

lostand confused says

zzyzzx says

Who is making you get married???

How about living together and not getting married.

In some jurisdictions, they consider that to be common law marriage and they make men pay the women- even though you are not married.

What about round-robin serial monogamy?