patrick.net

121212 says

Marriage has nothing to do with SEX!

Well you didn't say your ex-wife was a Russian Mail order bride.

BayArea says

By getting married I am committing to abstaining from sex with other women.

As well as your wife is she has a "headache"

BayArea says

Marriage without the sex is a 1-way ticket to you know where.

Its where you find yourself when your wife is a working mom.

My DINK friends have the opposite problem. Their wives want sex but have let themselves go beyond the point where my buddies aren't interested anymore.

John Bailo says

I believe that in fact it is illegal according to the 13th and 14th amendments. It should not be allowed for one person to enslave the other with financial hardships.

You should goto family court sometime!

It's awful.

Marriage enslavement is a great word for financial entrapment.

Religion was mentioned above and it sounds like you guys believe that it's not necessarily a deal breaker as long as both parties have a mutual respect for each other's beliefs.

However, beliefs are one thing, but practice is another. I had a friend break up with his GF of many years because they couldn't come to terms with religious practices and couldn't agree on how the kids were to be raised. He was atheist but respected her beliefs. She respected his but because the church was a big part of her spiritual and social life, she couldn't connect with him on that level. And regarding kids, he wanted them to make their own minds up. She wanted to raise them with the bible/church. And so they had a major problem on their hands and decided to can the relationship after several years. Makes you think that this should have been sorted out early on. But hey, people's thoughts, feelings, and position on things evolve and they may feel differently today than they did many years ago.

... And so slowly went the emotional connection, then the sex, then...

Hard to not get cynical with all this quite frankly.

http://dalrock.wordpress.com/

New Renter says

Their wives want sex but have let themselves go beyond the point where my buddies aren't interested anymore.

That's another topic that is closely tied to all this. And as you know, it's difficult to even bring up to your partner because weight/appearance is the slipperiest slope of them all. What happens when you say "I do - for better or worse" and she puts on 50lbs after 3 years of marriage?

Case Study: My best friend went out with a girl for 5 years, both were mutual friends of mine. He was like me, someone who went to the gym regularly and stayed fit. Call it shallow, call it anything you'd like, but it was important for him to be with someone that did the same. After 5 years she gained some weight. He loved the gal, but felt himself growing apart from her. He made the tough decision to sit down and communicate his feelings to her. He didn't know at the time, but he was hitting the softest insecurity string in her entire body. Her insecurity skyrocketed, resentment grew, and the relationship ended shortly after. I don't know whether he did the right thing or if his approach could have been different, but it comes down to what's important for you. To him he felt the relationship slipping through his fingers and felt like he had to do something in the best way he knew how.

Personally, I think the weight thing is somewhat influenced by whether kids are involved or not. If there are kids involved, you have to be EXTRA sensitive. If there are no kids, and major weight gain, I'm worried and want to understand what is happening with my wife emotionally that is causing her to change drastically physically.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/world/europe/13iht-letter13.html?pagewanted=all

I think marriage statistics is extremely biased (no shit). you have to use a more representative sample. for example, let's use my demographic

Asian (collectivism over individualism)
NY (higher avg age of marriage relative to every state)
115k income (financially stable)
no children (no baggage)
age 28
graduate degree (higher correlation with successful marriage)

even then, i still don't think marriage is a good bet. lol

it all comes down to values. Statistics is backwards looking and not representative of the future. In a western culture that celebrates the hook-up culture, marriage is a failing bet even for people like me.

Oxygen says

In a western culture that celebrates the hook-up culture, marriage is a failing bet even for people like me.

In Asian cultures Children are an investment for care when the parents are elderly. There is a phenomena right now that many of the children are choosing a gay life style. These are cultures that have in recent times decided on a once child limit. Their future is in jeopardy, as well the gene pool of their ancestral blood line, of being cut off for the ages.

BayArea says

What happens when you say "I do - for better or worse" and she puts on 50lbs after 3 years of marriage.

That is IMHO one of the main reasons women GET married. They see it coming, hear the baby clock ticking and do whatever it takes to land a man while they still can.

Of course that is true for some men as well.

CaptainShuddup says

There is a phenomena right now that many of the children are choosing a gay life style.

Not a surprise when the culture also actively selects for male kids over female.

New Renter says

CaptainShuddup says

There is a phenomena right now that many of the children are choosing a gay life style.

Not a surprise when the culture also actively selects for male kids over female.

lol never even thought about that connection

New Renter says

That is IMHO one of the main reasons women GET married. They see it coming, hear the baby clock ticking and do whatever it takes to land a man while they still can.

Of course that is true for some men as well.

We all have some amount of responsibility to remain healthy and take care of ourselves. That's particularly true when married, especially if kids are involved.

Typically when I hear of one or both members of a marriage all of a sudden putting on a significant amount of weight, I immediately start thinking unhappiness, emotional distress, marital problems, a traumatic experience, etc as the source...

I'm 5'11 190lbs. Not coincidentally, the largest I've been in my life (220lbs) was also when I've been the least happy due to unforeseen circumstances. Not coincidentally, the most fit I've been in my life was when I was single, lol.

New Renter says

Not a surprise when the culture also actively selects for male kids over female.

Spot on.

BayArea says

Typically when I hear of one or both members of a marriage all of a sudden putting on a significant amount of weight, I immediately start thinking unhappiness, emotional distress, marital problems, a traumatic experience, etc as the source...

Some people get inactive due to chronic ailment or injuries.
Herniate or rupture a disk in your lower back, and it will be guaranteed that you'll be 30lb heavier with in 12 months. Unless you have the metabolism of a humming bird.

I'm not heavy, but I do know plenty of people that are. But I don't know one single person that is overweight because they are an uncontrollable glutton. I used to work with this guy that was about 5 feet from shoulder to shoulder. Yet! he could squeeze between the 6 to 7 inch space between a fence post and the wall of the building it was adjacent to. Now mind you, he was not wide because he was built muscular, he was one of those fat people that grows wide, instead of thick. I spent a lot of time with him, he ate like everyone else. No more and no less. He just couldn't lose any weight.

BayArea says

We all have some amount of responsibility to remain healthy and take care of ourselves. That's particularly true when married, especially if kids are involved.

Typically when I hear of one or both members of a marriage all of a sudden putting on a significant amount of weight, I immediately start thinking unhappiness, emotional distress, marital problems, a traumatic experience, etc as the source...

There's that. There's also working a demanding full time job, BA commutes, needy kids, laundry, home maintenance, portfolio management, etc. Not much time or energy left over for the gym in there much less sex.

Sure you can say make it a priority but something has to give.

Oops, forgot posting on PatNet...

Well the thing with males in Asian culture was that it was the male kid's "job" to take care of you in your old age. You had a daughter , you "gave" her away during marraige and she became a part of someone else's family. The male kid and his wife took care of you-that was the societal expectation.

Of course things are changing there and society is becoming more western. People also have less kids and like here kids are becoming a liability instead of an asset. You raise them, take them from activity to activity, then they grow up, go away and you end up in an old age home anyways -with a few visits a year.

Families and marraiges were permanent , but with the skyrocketing divorce rates there-it is slowly starting to resemble western culture. Though the divorce rates are nowehere near here. I think the only place where any sort of tradition is being maintained is the middle east!!

Once kids come along, expect less sex. It doesn't have to dry up, but it's much harder to have time and energy for it all the time. Also kids are like throwing a hand grenade into your loving relationship. I'd recommend reading "Babyproofing your marriage" which is a book for people who want to stay married through having kids. It's just so hard, nobody would do it if they knew, and nobody who is a parent would ever want to go back and unmake their children. Well, almost nobody. Some parents are awful and some children are hellions.

Here's a good joke:
Q: What's the most fattening food?
A: wedding cake

If you want to avoid ever fighting about money, maintain three checking accounts.

One for household expenses. Housing, utilities, food, etc.

Each spouse has their own account. Put a few hundred bucks per month in it. Spend it on whatever you like.

Don't fall into the stay at home parent model if you live in the suburbs. Actually, avoid living in the suburbs period.

Don't have kids until you're both settled career wise.

Don't have more than two kids. Being outnumbered sucks.

Live near family for free babysitting.

Travel a lot.

Don't

One bank account, stay at home Mom live in the suburbs, and had kids while I was young and poor so the Liberals would pay for it. Although the wife's family does live close, they were never our baby sitters. Even though they would gladly do it. The kids went where ever we went. We'd go out at night, if the daughters spent the night at a friends house or their cousins.
sleep overs = free baby sitters
Both my daughters are straight A students.

Oh yah, one more thing (thx Cap'n for reminding me).
Date nights are absolutely essential when you have kids! Do them at least once every other week. Even if you have to hire a babysitter, do it. We have a regular sitter and she's worth her weight in solid formula. Use groupons to get cheap dinners and try new stuff while you're out. Avoid the movie theater unless you absolutely have to see a new movie. It's a waste of a date night, and she won't ultimately appreciate the date.

I am old school, an I believe in marriage.

People get into trouble for assuming that there are no other options and/or failing to communicate.

In addition to marriage, one can also consider serial monogamy.

Instead of divorce, one may consider opening up the marriage (mutual acceptance of extramarital affairs). [Talk to a lawyer first and confirm the legality in your place of residence]

But in any case, communication is the most important thing in any kind of relationship.

You goto feel for a polygamist! Are these men crazy?

More than one wife would be insane? Imagine not having sex with 4 woman and keeping 30 kids under 4 roofs! LMFAO.

121212 says

You goto feel for a polygamist! Are these men crazy?

More than one wife would be insane? Imagine not having sex with 4 woman and keeping 30 kids under 4 roofs! LMFAO.

It depends on the culture. In many polygamous societies, the man is,"The Man"and children are put to work and earn their keep from very young ages. A 5 yr old is already working and contributing to the family, not throwing tantrums.

Our cultural prism is different, so one can't judge them by our culture-which really isn't American culture, but the wreckage that pseudofeminism has done . I mean, if you want to work and be an equal- great-laws should reflect that. Not have your cake and eat it too-where you get to work, but if you stay at home and do nothing, the law gives you half of everything after a few years. Tiger Wood's ex got what-100 million for 4 years of marraige. You want to marry the world's biggest sports stars and yet want him to be a homebody and not cheat? Then marry the toll collector or the garbage dump truck driver-this is just preposterous.

Peter P says

I am old school, an I believe in marriage.

Peter P says

Instead of divorce, one may consider opening up the marriage (mutual acceptance of extramarital affairs).

Which old school did you attend?

Goran_K says

've NEVER met anyone who said "the sex sustained them" over the long haul.

Maybe you never met anyone who was horny enough?

lostand confused says

A 5 yr old is already working and contributing to the family, not throwing tantrums.

I don't agree with child abuse or child slavery, thats awful.

Quigley says

Once kids come along, expect less sex.

This one in pretty high on my long list of reasons not to have kids.

121212 says

lostand confused says

A 5 yr old is already working and contributing to the family, not throwing tantrums.

I don't agree with child abuse or child slavery, thats awful.

Based on what? It is either that or they starve. It is just their culture. America used to be that way when farms were the norm.

121212 says

I don't agree with child abuse or child slavery, thats awful.

I agree, and for some strange reason it's OK to import goods made with child labor and sell them in the US. That's just as wrong.

http://tv.yahoo.com/news/italys-berlusconi-told-pay-nearly-50-million-per-050000727.html

Italy's Berlusconi Told to Pay Nearly $50 Million Per Year in Alimony

Just days after the 76-year-old Berlusconi, Italy’s billionaire media tycoon and three-time prime minister, announced he got engaged to Pasquale, 27, terms of divorce from Berlusconi’s second wife, Veronica Lario, were revealed.

He will pay her €36 million ($47.2 million) per year in alimony payments. That works out to be nearly €100,000 ($131,000) per day.

Obligatory:
Prostitutes would have been cheaper.

zzyzzx says

Italy's Berlusconi Told to Pay Nearly $50 Million Per Year in Alimony

Just days after the 76-year-old Berlusconi, Italy’s billionaire media tycoon and three-time prime minister, announced he got engaged to Pasquale, 27, terms of divorce from Berlusconi’s second wife, Veronica Lario, were revealed.

He will pay her €36 million ($47.2 million) per year in alimony payments. That works out to be nearly €100,000 ($131,000) per day.

Obligatory:

Prostitutes would have been cheaper.

If you're a billionaire then most definitely, you should have a global harem, with a full time sugar baby stationed at each of your favorite global ports: London, Barcelona, Singapore, Tokyo, Sydney, Rio, etc.

The contract stuff is for the middle class folks, who need a sense of stability in a world. The rich only need marriage for inheritance reasons but I suspect that a billionaire could also work with a surrogate mother as well. Successful soccer player, Cristiano Ronaldo, did just that ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1292094/Cristiano-Ronaldo-father-paying-surrogate-baby.html

zzyzzx says

Obligatory:
Prostitutes would have been cheaper

And more honest.

I know I'm not a guy, however, I play one on TV.

Kidding.

Actually, I played a role in the drafting and passing of the Georgia child support reform bill (hb 221 in 2005)... so I figure that grants me honorary "guy" status.

You don't have a crystal ball, so there is no way you can know for sure that the marriage will or will not work out. Assuming you both see eye-to-eye on most things then you have as good a shot as any. Unfortunately, people can and do change. In some cases, those changes are good. And in others, they are not. The only way to truly protect yourself is to avoid marriage altogether. Though some might see that as a reasonable option, I think it's a rather lonely choice.

Getting out of a bad marriage is simpler when no kids are involved. IMHO, use the first couple of years of your marriage to be sure that you are both ready for children. Use those years to make sure that you are indeed happy in the marriage. Dissolution of a marriage is much more complicated (and expensive) once kids are involved. Please don't have kids to keep your marriage together. Better to have a divorce without kids than be shackled to a bad marriage because of kids.

Once kids are involved, THE DECK IS STACKED AGAINST YOU. Courts, in general, believe that the calves belong with the cows. You can try fighting for custody, but unless you can prove she's an axe-wielding crack whore, you're gunna have trouble.

The pendulum has swung dramatically in favor of women on these issues. You will be lucky to see your kids every-other-weekend plus a weekday. You will be marginalized to the position of "wallet." Child support awards have nothing to do with the needs of the children. You will pay, pay, and pay some more based on tables (or percentages) that are so far removed from reality you will forget you are in the USA.

You might be thinking, surely the court would recognize that my educated and capable wife should also contribute to the financial well being of our children? Yeah... you'd think that, but it isn't the case in many situations. I have seen cases (Cobb County, GA) where the man has 50/50 custody, makes the same income as his ex-wife, and still has to pay c/s to the ex-wife.

Anyway... I guess what I'm trying to say is that a marriage without kids has somewhat of a do-over factor... You can get out relatively unscathed. Once you have kids, however, there is no clean slate. Visitation, child support, and alimony will shackle you to your ex-wife for the better part of your productive years.

So, true story, a friend of mine was cleaning pools in HB harbor and saw the house across the street. Every day he was there a different hot chick would come out, jump in an expensive car, and motor off. He asked the neighbor whose house that was and the neighbor was like, "that's Neil Diamond's pad!"
So what I'm thinking the dude does is buy a hot chick a car, probably on a lease. Then every month she comes over to make her "payment."
30 cars would about do the trick, right?

You can be the greatest guy on earth but 'she can change her mind'. And unless you make boatloads of money, when you get divorced and/or have kids, under California's laws your life is toast.

Another advice, read The Prince.

marriage is the quickest and most efficient way to legally combined assets. the rewards are slim, and the risks are unfair to the breadwinner (usually the male). ppl conflate long term commitment with the legal concept of marriage; that is how many men suffer badly during the divorce fallout. a marriage is all good until it isnt, and that fallout will induce life-changing stress the more invested you are in the marriage.

Divorce takes health toll that remarriage can't heal
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-07-28/health/divorce.marriage.health_1_chronic-conditions-divorced-people-health-care?_s=PM:HEALTH

on a side note, i expect to see cohabitation increase in highly educated ppl in the coming decade. legal marriage will be pushed further into the 30's age bracket.

taxee says

You can be the greatest guy on earth but 'she can change her mind'. And unless you make boatloads of money, when you get divorced and/or have kids, under California's laws your life is toast.

exactly. it is her prerogative to change her mind. then she opts for the "cash and prizes" option.

CaptainShuddup says

Oxygen says

In a western culture that celebrates the hook-up culture, marriage is a failing bet even for people like me.

In Asian cultures Children are an investment for care when the parents are elderly. There is a phenomena right now that many of the children are choosing a gay life style. These are cultures that have in recent times decided on a once child limit. Their future is in jeopardy, as well the gene pool of their ancestral blood line, of being cut off for the ages.

gene pool is not cut off if your siblings have kids

personally, i think the legacy thing is a crock of shit.