patrick.net

I have been with my wife for about 14 years, married about 9.

My advice?

1. Make sure you are compatible on key areas.
- Religion: You don't necessarily have to agree with each other, but should be OK with their beliefs and ok with raising your children with those beliefs.

- Finances: Probably more important than religious considerations. Financial strife plays a role in relationship disintegration quite often. If you don't agree on how to run your finances, it's gonna be tough, especially if one of you gets into financial trouble easily. Talk about retirement funding, debt in general, home ownership and leisure/vacation/toy spending.

- Children: Gotta be aligned on this one. Assuming you do want to have children, it's a good idea to talk about child rearing philosophy -- there is quite a range out there and you may not even know where you stand until you put some real thought into it (which usually doesn't happen until you actually have kids). Suggestion: Haunt the Berkeley Parent's Network forums and read about the different challenges / questions people have (and the responses). Do the same with a more conservative leaning forum. Where do you stand? I think this will force you to consider things you haven't considered in detail before and it might reveal some incompatibilities on this topic.

- General life goals, interests. Do you dream of having a cabin in the woods and living off the land some day? Does she see herself moving to Moscow to be an artist? These are things you probably already know about each other generally, but it doesn't hurt to have a deliberate conversation about it.

Don't rush into something because it's what you are "supposed to do", but also don't kid yourself that there is some magical perfect person out there just waiting for you. Keep your standards appropriately high, but know that whomever you are with today is not the right person for you in 10 years -- she will have to change and evolve as you and your life circumstances change and evolve. I think it's that process, if it happens in a healthy way, that makes two people "perfect" for each other.

Give 60%, expect 40%. Maybe the best one liner advice I have ever heard. It's something I return to often, because it's a reminder that we see thing through our own lens, and need to adjust your expectations to reflect that bias.

Another favorite one-liner: "Women are meant to be loved, not to be understood." (Oscar Wilde)

A psychologist I know who has done some marital counseling says that the biggest problems in relationships can be summed up as "unstated assumptions" or "unstated expectations" -- if you buy that, then you will understand why it's so important to get everything on the table for discussion before you take the plunge.

Go in with an open mind and an expectation that it's going to be damn hard. As perfect as you are today, you are going to have to grow and so is she. Life demands that anyway, but a relationship raises the stakes and brings things into focus.

BayArea says

#1 - What is the distinction between monogamous & serially monogamous?

You will be surprised that most woman are serially monogamous that cannot get married! or do not want to get married.

What is serial monogamy, basically over a lifetime being in multiple long term relationship without marriage.

Freud would have his mind handed to him by modern woman who are acting more and more like men as they find Independence.
Woman are driven by sex too, don't kid yourself. Passion/Work/Self Importance all traits woman aspire to today.

BayArea says

121212 says

BayArea says

Woman: $150K in school loans, $0 in the bank.

Ok what's her credit like? Unfortunately that maybe the deal breaker.

You have assets she does not?

Does she work?

"Love is not a reason to get married anymore, TAX IS! If anything statistically you will be divorced before you know it. Stay single and work harder at being together"

For the sake of argument, lets say both parties make 6 figures and both credit scores are perfect.

PRE-NUP! 100% - Marriage is your choice. I've been through it and don't recommend it unless it is Tax efficient purposes. You do not need the government or religion to sanctify your union or love.

Marriage used to be about kids and yet marriage destroys children when you have hideous divorces and they all are. All of them are. It's one thing to get divorced and there are no kids, with kids woman get VINDICTIVE! You and your kids will suffer. I'm warning you now, getting married and having kids without living together being together for 5 years is a mistake.

Love is blind and woman are vindictive. Cover your ass legally and emotionally, plan, live together, communicate, become financial secure together. The more you balance the finance at the beginning the least issues will arise and expect to hate each other at some point.

If one partner is in debt and bad credit, DO NOT GET MARRIED. It hurts your both.

CaptainShuddup says

But everything has a caveat, all of this wouldn't have been possible if the sex wasn't always good. No matter what, you've got to get your freak on. Perhaps not as often as I would have liked at times, but it was frequent enough, and good enough to keep me interested all this time.

If she wasn't a great mother, and excellent wife and a wild cat in the sack I would have left her sorry ass a long time ago. :P

LOL! Thank you for that.

Sex certainly won't sustain a relationship in the long run, but if there isn't sexual chemistry, it will end one quickly.

Goran_K says

Also consider the fact that some people simply shouldn't get married. Marriage isn't for everyone. Don't get pressured into it. If it's not your thing, then it's okay. Plenty of happy people I know who have never been married.

That's a great point and I agree 100%. Social/family pressures make this difficult for the folks that aren't wired for marriage.

BayArea says

Sex certainly won't sustain a relationship in the long run, but if there isn't sexual chemistry, it will end one quickly.

Marriage has nothing to do with SEX!

The sorry ass part was a bit tongue and cheek.
Basically I can't find anything negative to say about her, no matter how rotten I think things get. When I put in perspective.

121212 says

BayArea says

Sex certainly won't sustain a relationship in the long run, but if there isn't sexual chemistry, it will end one quickly.

Marriage has nothing to do with SEX!

By getting married I am committing to abstaining from sex with other women. Therefore, the topic of marriage and sex are as linked to me as marriage and kids, marriage and finances, etc. Marriage without the sex is a 1-way ticket to you know where.

121212 says

Marriage has nothing to do with SEX!

Well you didn't say your ex-wife was a Russian Mail order bride.

BayArea says

By getting married I am committing to abstaining from sex with other women.

As well as your wife is she has a "headache"

BayArea says

Marriage without the sex is a 1-way ticket to you know where.

Its where you find yourself when your wife is a working mom.

My DINK friends have the opposite problem. Their wives want sex but have let themselves go beyond the point where my buddies aren't interested anymore.

John Bailo says

I believe that in fact it is illegal according to the 13th and 14th amendments. It should not be allowed for one person to enslave the other with financial hardships.

You should goto family court sometime!

It's awful.

Marriage enslavement is a great word for financial entrapment.

Religion was mentioned above and it sounds like you guys believe that it's not necessarily a deal breaker as long as both parties have a mutual respect for each other's beliefs.

However, beliefs are one thing, but practice is another. I had a friend break up with his GF of many years because they couldn't come to terms with religious practices and couldn't agree on how the kids were to be raised. He was atheist but respected her beliefs. She respected his but because the church was a big part of her spiritual and social life, she couldn't connect with him on that level. And regarding kids, he wanted them to make their own minds up. She wanted to raise them with the bible/church. And so they had a major problem on their hands and decided to can the relationship after several years. Makes you think that this should have been sorted out early on. But hey, people's thoughts, feelings, and position on things evolve and they may feel differently today than they did many years ago.

... And so slowly went the emotional connection, then the sex, then...

Hard to not get cynical with all this quite frankly.

http://dalrock.wordpress.com/

New Renter says

Their wives want sex but have let themselves go beyond the point where my buddies aren't interested anymore.

That's another topic that is closely tied to all this. And as you know, it's difficult to even bring up to your partner because weight/appearance is the slipperiest slope of them all. What happens when you say "I do - for better or worse" and she puts on 50lbs after 3 years of marriage?

Case Study: My best friend went out with a girl for 5 years, both were mutual friends of mine. He was like me, someone who went to the gym regularly and stayed fit. Call it shallow, call it anything you'd like, but it was important for him to be with someone that did the same. After 5 years she gained some weight. He loved the gal, but felt himself growing apart from her. He made the tough decision to sit down and communicate his feelings to her. He didn't know at the time, but he was hitting the softest insecurity string in her entire body. Her insecurity skyrocketed, resentment grew, and the relationship ended shortly after. I don't know whether he did the right thing or if his approach could have been different, but it comes down to what's important for you. To him he felt the relationship slipping through his fingers and felt like he had to do something in the best way he knew how.

Personally, I think the weight thing is somewhat influenced by whether kids are involved or not. If there are kids involved, you have to be EXTRA sensitive. If there are no kids, and major weight gain, I'm worried and want to understand what is happening with my wife emotionally that is causing her to change drastically physically.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/13/world/europe/13iht-letter13.html?pagewanted=all

I think marriage statistics is extremely biased (no shit). you have to use a more representative sample. for example, let's use my demographic

Asian (collectivism over individualism)
NY (higher avg age of marriage relative to every state)
115k income (financially stable)
no children (no baggage)
age 28
graduate degree (higher correlation with successful marriage)

even then, i still don't think marriage is a good bet. lol

it all comes down to values. Statistics is backwards looking and not representative of the future. In a western culture that celebrates the hook-up culture, marriage is a failing bet even for people like me.

Oxygen says

In a western culture that celebrates the hook-up culture, marriage is a failing bet even for people like me.

In Asian cultures Children are an investment for care when the parents are elderly. There is a phenomena right now that many of the children are choosing a gay life style. These are cultures that have in recent times decided on a once child limit. Their future is in jeopardy, as well the gene pool of their ancestral blood line, of being cut off for the ages.

BayArea says

What happens when you say "I do - for better or worse" and she puts on 50lbs after 3 years of marriage.

That is IMHO one of the main reasons women GET married. They see it coming, hear the baby clock ticking and do whatever it takes to land a man while they still can.

Of course that is true for some men as well.

CaptainShuddup says

There is a phenomena right now that many of the children are choosing a gay life style.

Not a surprise when the culture also actively selects for male kids over female.

New Renter says

CaptainShuddup says

There is a phenomena right now that many of the children are choosing a gay life style.

Not a surprise when the culture also actively selects for male kids over female.

lol never even thought about that connection

New Renter says

That is IMHO one of the main reasons women GET married. They see it coming, hear the baby clock ticking and do whatever it takes to land a man while they still can.

Of course that is true for some men as well.

We all have some amount of responsibility to remain healthy and take care of ourselves. That's particularly true when married, especially if kids are involved.

Typically when I hear of one or both members of a marriage all of a sudden putting on a significant amount of weight, I immediately start thinking unhappiness, emotional distress, marital problems, a traumatic experience, etc as the source...

I'm 5'11 190lbs. Not coincidentally, the largest I've been in my life (220lbs) was also when I've been the least happy due to unforeseen circumstances. Not coincidentally, the most fit I've been in my life was when I was single, lol.

New Renter says

Not a surprise when the culture also actively selects for male kids over female.

Spot on.

BayArea says

Typically when I hear of one or both members of a marriage all of a sudden putting on a significant amount of weight, I immediately start thinking unhappiness, emotional distress, marital problems, a traumatic experience, etc as the source...

Some people get inactive due to chronic ailment or injuries.
Herniate or rupture a disk in your lower back, and it will be guaranteed that you'll be 30lb heavier with in 12 months. Unless you have the metabolism of a humming bird.

I'm not heavy, but I do know plenty of people that are. But I don't know one single person that is overweight because they are an uncontrollable glutton. I used to work with this guy that was about 5 feet from shoulder to shoulder. Yet! he could squeeze between the 6 to 7 inch space between a fence post and the wall of the building it was adjacent to. Now mind you, he was not wide because he was built muscular, he was one of those fat people that grows wide, instead of thick. I spent a lot of time with him, he ate like everyone else. No more and no less. He just couldn't lose any weight.

BayArea says

We all have some amount of responsibility to remain healthy and take care of ourselves. That's particularly true when married, especially if kids are involved.

Typically when I hear of one or both members of a marriage all of a sudden putting on a significant amount of weight, I immediately start thinking unhappiness, emotional distress, marital problems, a traumatic experience, etc as the source...

There's that. There's also working a demanding full time job, BA commutes, needy kids, laundry, home maintenance, portfolio management, etc. Not much time or energy left over for the gym in there much less sex.

Sure you can say make it a priority but something has to give.

Oops, forgot posting on PatNet...

Well the thing with males in Asian culture was that it was the male kid's "job" to take care of you in your old age. You had a daughter , you "gave" her away during marraige and she became a part of someone else's family. The male kid and his wife took care of you-that was the societal expectation.

Of course things are changing there and society is becoming more western. People also have less kids and like here kids are becoming a liability instead of an asset. You raise them, take them from activity to activity, then they grow up, go away and you end up in an old age home anyways -with a few visits a year.

Families and marraiges were permanent , but with the skyrocketing divorce rates there-it is slowly starting to resemble western culture. Though the divorce rates are nowehere near here. I think the only place where any sort of tradition is being maintained is the middle east!!

Once kids come along, expect less sex. It doesn't have to dry up, but it's much harder to have time and energy for it all the time. Also kids are like throwing a hand grenade into your loving relationship. I'd recommend reading "Babyproofing your marriage" which is a book for people who want to stay married through having kids. It's just so hard, nobody would do it if they knew, and nobody who is a parent would ever want to go back and unmake their children. Well, almost nobody. Some parents are awful and some children are hellions.

Here's a good joke:
Q: What's the most fattening food?
A: wedding cake

If you want to avoid ever fighting about money, maintain three checking accounts.

One for household expenses. Housing, utilities, food, etc.

Each spouse has their own account. Put a few hundred bucks per month in it. Spend it on whatever you like.

Don't fall into the stay at home parent model if you live in the suburbs. Actually, avoid living in the suburbs period.

Don't have kids until you're both settled career wise.

Don't have more than two kids. Being outnumbered sucks.

Live near family for free babysitting.

Travel a lot.

Don't

One bank account, stay at home Mom live in the suburbs, and had kids while I was young and poor so the Liberals would pay for it. Although the wife's family does live close, they were never our baby sitters. Even though they would gladly do it. The kids went where ever we went. We'd go out at night, if the daughters spent the night at a friends house or their cousins.
sleep overs = free baby sitters
Both my daughters are straight A students.

Oh yah, one more thing (thx Cap'n for reminding me).
Date nights are absolutely essential when you have kids! Do them at least once every other week. Even if you have to hire a babysitter, do it. We have a regular sitter and she's worth her weight in solid formula. Use groupons to get cheap dinners and try new stuff while you're out. Avoid the movie theater unless you absolutely have to see a new movie. It's a waste of a date night, and she won't ultimately appreciate the date.

I am old school, an I believe in marriage.

People get into trouble for assuming that there are no other options and/or failing to communicate.

In addition to marriage, one can also consider serial monogamy.

Instead of divorce, one may consider opening up the marriage (mutual acceptance of extramarital affairs). [Talk to a lawyer first and confirm the legality in your place of residence]

But in any case, communication is the most important thing in any kind of relationship.

You goto feel for a polygamist! Are these men crazy?

More than one wife would be insane? Imagine not having sex with 4 woman and keeping 30 kids under 4 roofs! LMFAO.

121212 says

You goto feel for a polygamist! Are these men crazy?

More than one wife would be insane? Imagine not having sex with 4 woman and keeping 30 kids under 4 roofs! LMFAO.

It depends on the culture. In many polygamous societies, the man is,"The Man"and children are put to work and earn their keep from very young ages. A 5 yr old is already working and contributing to the family, not throwing tantrums.

Our cultural prism is different, so one can't judge them by our culture-which really isn't American culture, but the wreckage that pseudofeminism has done . I mean, if you want to work and be an equal- great-laws should reflect that. Not have your cake and eat it too-where you get to work, but if you stay at home and do nothing, the law gives you half of everything after a few years. Tiger Wood's ex got what-100 million for 4 years of marraige. You want to marry the world's biggest sports stars and yet want him to be a homebody and not cheat? Then marry the toll collector or the garbage dump truck driver-this is just preposterous.

Peter P says

I am old school, an I believe in marriage.

Peter P says

Instead of divorce, one may consider opening up the marriage (mutual acceptance of extramarital affairs).

Which old school did you attend?

Goran_K says

've NEVER met anyone who said "the sex sustained them" over the long haul.

Maybe you never met anyone who was horny enough?

lostand confused says

A 5 yr old is already working and contributing to the family, not throwing tantrums.

I don't agree with child abuse or child slavery, thats awful.

Quigley says

Once kids come along, expect less sex.

This one in pretty high on my long list of reasons not to have kids.

121212 says

lostand confused says

A 5 yr old is already working and contributing to the family, not throwing tantrums.

I don't agree with child abuse or child slavery, thats awful.

Based on what? It is either that or they starve. It is just their culture. America used to be that way when farms were the norm.

121212 says

I don't agree with child abuse or child slavery, thats awful.

I agree, and for some strange reason it's OK to import goods made with child labor and sell them in the US. That's just as wrong.

http://tv.yahoo.com/news/italys-berlusconi-told-pay-nearly-50-million-per-050000727.html

Italy's Berlusconi Told to Pay Nearly $50 Million Per Year in Alimony

Just days after the 76-year-old Berlusconi, Italy’s billionaire media tycoon and three-time prime minister, announced he got engaged to Pasquale, 27, terms of divorce from Berlusconi’s second wife, Veronica Lario, were revealed.

He will pay her €36 million ($47.2 million) per year in alimony payments. That works out to be nearly €100,000 ($131,000) per day.

Obligatory:
Prostitutes would have been cheaper.

zzyzzx says

Italy's Berlusconi Told to Pay Nearly $50 Million Per Year in Alimony

Just days after the 76-year-old Berlusconi, Italy’s billionaire media tycoon and three-time prime minister, announced he got engaged to Pasquale, 27, terms of divorce from Berlusconi’s second wife, Veronica Lario, were revealed.

He will pay her €36 million ($47.2 million) per year in alimony payments. That works out to be nearly €100,000 ($131,000) per day.

Obligatory:

Prostitutes would have been cheaper.

If you're a billionaire then most definitely, you should have a global harem, with a full time sugar baby stationed at each of your favorite global ports: London, Barcelona, Singapore, Tokyo, Sydney, Rio, etc.

The contract stuff is for the middle class folks, who need a sense of stability in a world. The rich only need marriage for inheritance reasons but I suspect that a billionaire could also work with a surrogate mother as well. Successful soccer player, Cristiano Ronaldo, did just that ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1292094/Cristiano-Ronaldo-father-paying-surrogate-baby.html

zzyzzx says

Obligatory:
Prostitutes would have been cheaper

And more honest.